Just wanted to get peoples opinions, not looking to debate them. Is the place of reward and resurrection in Heaven or Earth? What do you believe happens when you die? If you can use direct evidence from the bible that would be helpful.
Earth.
1Th 4:17 then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be;
1Th 4:18 so, then, comfort ye one another in these words.
Pretty simple, glad you asked :dsunny:
Resurrected in the heavens, then heaven comes to earth ?:o)
To my understanding we are already in the "heavens," we have been battleling in them for years. Our destination is earth.
Psa 37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
Where does it read that we will be in heaven?
Well if we are waging war in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, I think we will be resurrected there-when we meet the Lord in the air-as in the scriptures you posted. The I think we come right back to earth to begin building the new heavens and the new earth wherein righteousness dwells.
Yep, on earth. Just where is this in heaven? I mean where is the location of heaven, I mean like a location, like earth?
We, those who believe are in the heavenly's, but heaven is not our destination, no earth is our destination. Earth is what Jehovah created to be inhabited, the heavens are our strength now, but our inheritance is the earth.
Psa 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
Psa 37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
Thank goodness there are some who find the exchange of years, moments wasted. :dsunny:
:sigh:
For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3 For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies.[a] 4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it's not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. 5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.
6 So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord. 7 For we live by believing and not by seeing. 8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.
--2 Cor 5
Until the end of the age: heaven.
If you take the definition of resurrection as most people understand it,
"returning to the living state" then just as Jesus was resurrected, so shall Christians. Earth.
"Then the earth gave up the dead that was in it and the sea gave up the dead that was in it"
Micah is right. If we are all going to be in heaven, why would God bother to give us a new earth?
"There will be a new heaven and a new earth"
To me the resurrection hinges on the misunderstood but plain verse.
"Behold, I am making ALL things new." - it does NOT say "Behold, I am making all new things."
QuoteMicah is right. If we are all going to be in heaven, why would God bother to give us a new earth?
Notice I said heaven until the end of the age.
Paul confirms this in his 'to be or not to be' soliloquy.
But, it's confirmed in many other places as well.
Why else would he say, I long to [die] and be with Christ?
21 For to me, living means living for Christ,
and dying is even better. 22 But if I live, I can do more fruitful work for Christ. So I really don't know which is better. 23 I'm torn between two desires:
I long to go and be with Christ, which would be far better for me. 24 But for your sakes, it is better that I continue to live.
--Phil 1
...and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever.--Psa 23
So since the earth is God's footstool, then heaven is kinda out in space somewhere?
Jesus still has a body - a glorified body - but a body.
He showed Thomas his wounds from the crucifixion and Paul said
25 years AFTER Jesus had died, there is "one mediator between God and man, the man, Jesus Christ."
I don't know how, but it sounds like a physical body to me. He didn't say "the Spirit, Jesus Christ.
and when he came toward the disciples they were afraid because "they thought he was a spirit"
but he(Jesus) reassured them that it was himself in the flesh. :Chinscratch: :dontknow:
Do you think there are any limitations on Jesus as to how he can appear to man or not?
Or in what form he might be found in?
Are you saying there is no heaven?
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows.
--2 Cor 12:2
Deuteronomy 10:14 To the LORD your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it.
Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
And I know that this man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows--
was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.
--2 Cor 12:3-4
The victor: I will make him a pillar in the sanctuary of My God, and he will never go out again. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God—the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God—and My new name.
But based on His promise, we wait for the new heavens and a new earth, where righteousness will dwell.
But by the same word, the present heavens and earth are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
They willfully ignore this: Long ago the heavens and the earth were brought about from water and through water by the word of God.
Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God (the heavenly Jerusalem), to myriads of angels in festive gathering,
in which you previously walked according to the ways of this world, according to the ruler who exercises authority over the lower heavens, the spirit now working in the disobedient.
From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been suffering violence, and the violent have been seizing it by force.
He stretched out what appeared to be a hand and took me by the hair of my head. Then the Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and carried me in visions of God to Jerusalem, to the entrance of the inner gate that faces north, where the offensive statue that provokes jealousy was located.
So the heavens and the earth and everything in them were completed.
And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Yeah Molly, I quoted the Bible saying "there will be a new HEAVEN and a new earth"
just wonderin where it might be - out in space someplace or just on another dimensional plane
Oh and my wife said for me to say that living with her is heaven on earth :laugh:
It could be another dimensional plane, but it's a big universe out there.
Jesus could certainly play easily with dimensions. Even before his death, he could make himself disappear [go invisible] to escape the angry Pharisees that were trying to kill him.
And they rose up and drove him out of the town and brought him to the brow of the hill on which their town was built, so that they could throw him down the cliff.
But he passing through the midst of them went his way,
--Luke 4:29-30
John 8:59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
"hid" [himself]
G2928
κρύπτω
kruptō
kroop'-to
A primary verb; to conceal (properly by covering): - hide (self), keep secret, secret [-ly].
I can't help but think heaven must be close if the earth is literally God's footstool. Of course, everything is close to God who encompasses all the universe and outside of it also.
...and it must be pretty close to W. Virginia because there it is "almost heaven" :cloud9:
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 01, 2013, 02:31:58 PM
I can't help but think heaven must be close if the earth is literally God's footstool. Of course, everything is close to God who encompasses all the universe and outside of it also.
...and it must be pretty close to W. Virginia because there it is "almost heaven" :cloud9:
Yea, I spent most of 2009 in almost heaven. And it is :o)
Thanks for the replies, I had always believed it to be on Earth also but wanted to know what others thought since I know many Christians believe it is in Heaven. Seems to be allot of confusion about this in our religion and to be honest I am not 100% sure right now.
all the above is the reason why jw's beleive in two hopes..a heavenly one and an earthly one. I don't think
that's true. I think that what you look forward to..is where you are spiritually in your developement in
the revelation of Christ.....
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.. I Thes. 4:16-18
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
..But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. I Cor. 15
Quote from: jabcat on January 02, 2013, 05:14:24 AM
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.. I Thes. 4:16-18
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
..But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. I Cor. 15
All these scripts pertain to the end of the age.
But, meanwhile, he has a place for us in heaven.
Or do we really think that Paul was longing to die so that he could spend 2000 years in the grave waiting for Christ to return?
And if I go and make ready a place for you, I will return and take you to be with me, that where I am you also may be. John 14:3
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 Cor 5
Surely goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life,
And, I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever.
--Psa 23
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
--Jn 14:2
I understood the verses to be saying He comes back to instantly change us and take us away with Him. That's what I believe we have to look forward to (addressing sheila's post of what we have to "look forward to").
Seems like we do end up back here at some point though. Maybe it's a few seconds later, or a thousand years later. I don't know.
"And if I go and make ready a place for you, I will return and take you to be with me, that where I am you also may be." John 14:3
Molly, when do you believe this happens? At the end of an age, or when one dies? Or both?
It's been confusing for awhile for me. I do believe He literally returns and we rise to meet Him. An instant miracle, not some progressive process. I believe that's scripturally supported (the above.) But what is confusing is, if we go at death, then come back/are resurrected, then go and come back again. I'm surely missing something. Unless it's more a matter of dimensions, close realms/planes as ded mentioned earlier. And as you mentioned, Jesus able to apparently change dimensions (maybe there's a better term) even during His prior physical time on earth. :dontknow: Maybe it's not so much as a "here, then there" as we perceive, but more of entering different dimensions - where there are BOTH spiritual and literal/physical realities. I don't know. I'm over my head, but I wonder about it.
Quote from: jabcat on January 02, 2013, 05:44:09 AM
And if I go and make ready a place for you, I will return and take you to be with me, that where I am you also may be. John 14:3
Molly, when do you believe this happens? At the end of an age, or when one dies? Or both?
It happens when our body dies, Jab. "this earthly tent" is just a covering for our spirit and soul which has already crossed over from death to life.
We are done with death.
We died with Christ and are now raised and seated with him in heavenly places. Do you think we are going to die again?
Who do you think all those 'just men made perfect' are that we can now commune with in heaven? They are the saints, who have left their earthly tents before us.
Do you think this is just pretty talk?
He is the God of the living, not the dead. [Mk 12:27]
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels
the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,--Heb 12:22-23
QuoteIt's been confusing for awhile for me. I do believe He literally returns and we rise to meet Him.
We who are living when he returns rise to meet him.
But, who is he returning with? The saints!
The dead in Christ are given their glorified bodies first.
Quote from: Molly on January 02, 2013, 05:27:47 AM
Quote from: jabcat on January 02, 2013, 05:14:24 AM
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.. I Thes. 4:16-18
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
..But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. I Cor. 15
All these scripts pertain to the end of the age.
But, meanwhile, he has a place for us in heaven.
Or do we really think that Paul was longing to die so that he could spend 2000 years in the grave waiting for Christ to return?
And if I go and make ready a place for you, I will return and take you to be with me, that where I am you also may be. John 14:3
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 Cor 5
This is exactly why I am confused, I believed it was on Earth also but recently came to understand some parts of the bible better and how they pertained to the age and now I am confused about quite a few things I used to believe. Time to read it all over again with new eyes I guess.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (1Co 15:22-23)
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1Co 15:52)
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
(1Th 4:16-18)
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(Mat 24:30-31)
Glory!
What's confusing is the time line - when, where, how many times.
It sounds like the dead live with Christ in heaven, wherever that is. Seems "up" somewhere, as Jesus was taken up.
Then saints return with Jesus at His return at the resurrection? Then stay here, or go back? That's what I mean by coming, going, coming... anyone have a good timeline of these events?
Quote from: jabcat on January 02, 2013, 09:29:45 AM
What's confusing is the time line - when, where, how many times.
It sounds like the dead live with Christ in heaven, wherever that is. Seems "up" somewhere, as Jesus was taken up.
Then saints return with Jesus at His return at the resurrection? Then stay here, or go back? That's what I mean by coming, going, coming... anyone have a good timeline of these events?
I just find it interesting as Christians and especially since we are the few believers in UR that we still have confusion about the simple things like the resurrection and either disagree about it or in my case am wondering if I ever understood it at all. Anyways it reminds me of something I read in Hebrew 6 "Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,a and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so."
But the important thing isn't when or or what or where or how or the timeline. These things we will never know for sure. God told us these things not for the what where when how stuff, but so we will know what matters -
2 things matter. Who? - Jesus Why? Because He loves us and is doing His plan to show
and cover us with his Love.
In my opinion, I gave a real good idea where earth is; but can someone tell me where heaven is? Everyone one seems to want to live in heaven but no one has been able to tell me where that is. For me this is where heaven is..Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. John in chap 14 does not even mention the word heaven, yet it is assumed, but he does say Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Joh 16:16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
oh 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
And a far as I can tell there is trouble with that pesky little word that is understood here on the forum, that word is all.
Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
WE, MANY, ALL for me is pretty clear that "we" in I Cor. and I Thes is ALL. Of course this only my opinion. :dsunny:
yeah Micah - everybody wants to go to heaven - just not right now.
The old World Wide Church of God cult made a big deal about where heaven was.
Is the kingdom of heaven within you? Is it among you? Both?
Is the kingdom of heaven the same as just heaven?
If evil is not allowed in heaven, what was Satan doing standing before God in heaven
getting permission to mess with Job?
If heaven is "out in space" or "insidfe you" then what was Satan standing on?
The throne of God is in heaven - is it floating?
Isn't it amazing how much time we can spend basically asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? :Peace2:
Before Jehovah Witnesses were forbidden to come to my door (not by me but by their higher ups)
They would ask if, as a Christian, I thought I was going to be "in Heaven" (They believe heaven or paradise will be on earth and Jesus (Archangel Michael) will rule from somewhere else as the earth will only be his footstool.
Answer from me was (I was ET at the time): I may be in heaven, I may be on earth, I may even be somewhere else. I DO know I will be with Jesus wherever he is and I have no desire to be anywhere without him.
Okay, I found out a little as to what the kingdom of heaven is all about, it all seems pretty clear now. Right?
Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
Mat 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
Mat 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
I probably used the wrong phrase, "timeline". What I really meant was sequence. I don't think we can know a timeline. But through the scriptures, we probably could pinpoint a sequence, what happens, then next, so on.
Here's my understanding. Add your 2 cents if you see it differently;
Dead go to be with Christ where He is - heaven, the place of many mansions, "where I am.." - whatever you want to call it.
He returns at some point with those saints, there is the resurrection and catching up of those that are "alive and remain".
(I personally suspect that catching up may be brief, more of a joining Him, and then the work begins on earth.)
I'm not sure then about if earth remains "heaven", or if there's a final "trip to heaven" (although I don't know of any place that's in the scriptures, unless it's after the millinium, after the work of restoration is done) and I'm just not versed enough on the eschatology of it to be sure. :dunno2:
** Oh, I just thought of something. Doesn't the city foursquare descend to earth at some point??? Maybe that's when earth becomes "heaven"? Like omantodd said, interesting there's still uncertainty and differences on these things. It seems the mainstream church has just decided "how it happens", and they stick to it - CORRECT OR NOT!! So maybe that's still part of our seeking - being willing to dig into these things rather than just accept the "party line". :dunno2: :dontknow:
Some say (and I believe it) that there's a kingdom of earth, and a kingdom of heaven - that one has to do with living in His righteousness, peace, joy - in close relationship with Him. While the other is "where I am you will be also", "the city built foursquare", etc.
It seems if there is going to be a new heaven and a new earth and a new Jerusalem on the earth that MAYBE
a new heaven simply means sky and outerspace, since there will be no more sun, moon or stars as we know them.
Present matter all being rolled up like a scroll. :dontknow:
Quote from: jabcat on January 02, 2013, 09:05:08 PM
I probably used the wrong phrase, "timeline". What I really meant was sequence. I don't think we can know a timeline. But through the scriptures, we probably could pinpoint a sequence, what happens, then next, so on.
Here's my understanding. Add your 2 cents if you see it differently;
Dead go to be with Christ where He is - heaven, the place of many mansions, "where I am.." - whatever you want to call it.
He returns at some point with those saints, there is the resurrection and catching up of those that are "alive and remain".
I personally believe that catching up is brief, more of a joining Him, and then the work begins on earth.
I'm not sure then about if earth remains "heaven", or if there's a final "trip to heaven" (although I don't know of any place that's in the scriptures, unless it's after the millinium and I'm just not versed enough on the eschatology of it to be sure. :dunno2:
Sequence? Interesting! I was just checking out the appearances of Jesus after His resurrection and wondered if the "sequence" of the appearances as well as the words spoken by Jesus at each appearance might give us some "light"...I noted with great interest that His first appearance was to Mary Magdalene (john 20:14) to whom He said "do not touch me, ...I have not yet ascended to my Father... (I'm not familiar enough with the whole Lev touch not unclean, but there might be some connection???)
and His last appearance was to the Apostles (Acts 1:1-10) immediately before His ascension
the appearances in between, of course, are very interesting-- to Thomas (John 20:27) He said "touch my ...)
and so much more... it seems He appeared only to His brethren and during the forty days between His resurrection and ascension...
My interest in this whole topic of what and where is heaven comes from having to change a very strong opinion about the need for a physical heaven to accommodate a physically resurrected Jesus... now I don't have any opinion...just a few more Scriptures to study...
Quote from: jabcat on January 02, 2013, 09:05:08 PM
I probably used the wrong phrase, "timeline". What I really meant was sequence. I don't think we can know a timeline. But through the scriptures, we probably could pinpoint a sequence, what happens, then next, so on.
Here's my understanding. Add your 2 cents if you see it differently;
Dead go to be with Christ where He is - heaven, the place of many mansions, "where I am.." - whatever you want to call it.
He returns at some point with those saints, there is the resurrection and catching up of those that are "alive and remain".
(I personally suspect that catching up may be brief, more of a joining Him, and then the work begins on earth.)
I'm not sure then about if earth remains "heaven", or if there's a final "trip to heaven" (although I don't know of any place that's in the scriptures, unless it's after the millinium (after the work of restoration is done) and I'm just not versed enough on the eschatology of it to be sure. :dunno2:
** Oh, I just thought of something. Doesn't the city foursquare descend to earth at some point??? Maybe that's when earth becomes "heaven"? Like omantodd said, interesting there's still uncertainty and differences on these things. It seems the mainstream church has just decided "how it happens", and they stick to it - CORRECT OR NOT!! So maybe that's still part of our seeking - being willing to dig into these things rather than just accept the "party line". :dunno2: :dontknow:
Yup the problems come when you start to look into things in the bible, it's much easier to just let the mainstream church do your thinking for you, ignorance is bliss as they say. Every time I think I actually sorta get the whole picture about scripture I read something new and realize something I thought before might be completely incorrect. In a way this just strengthens my faith though because only God could have made a book this complex and often times confusing that requires so much study to get the real meanings behind things.
I wish I could contribute an opinion to this but I really have no idea at this point. What I used to believe was that all the dead are simply dead in the Earth and know nothing. At Christ's return all the saints would be raised and rule with Christ on Earth for 1000 Years after that the completion would come and all the other dead would be raised. The complete resurrection would be here on Earth and had nothing to do with anyone actually going to heaven. At this point I am pretty sure some of this, if not all is incorrect.
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 02, 2013, 09:19:11 PM
It seems if there is going to be a new heaven and a new earth and a new Jerusalem on the earth that MAYBE
a new heaven simply means sky and outerspace, since there will be no more sun, moon or stars as we know them.
Present matter all being rolled up like a scroll. :dontknow:
I know the jews believed in levels of heaven, like when Paul said he knew a man that was caught up to the 3rd level of Heaven. Also heaven means high places and often times is referring to positions of power. This is why it is so confusing, everything has complex jewish meanings from thousands of years ago and also symbolic meanings in certain places. :dontknow:
seekfirst, omantodd,
Good exploring. :thumbsup: Happy hunting! :bigGrin:
Hi,
Some of you know me from another forum. I rejoined here recently but haven't made any replies.
Many use Phillipians 1:22-23 to defend our conscious presence with God at death.
Here is a MOST interesting alternative understanding from http://www.harvestherald.com/mbls/chapter_five.htm:
***
Returning now to our text:
For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
What we are actually seeing here, are not two options which Paul is considering (life and death), but three (life, death, and resurrection), although this is hidden in our English translation. Because most Bible translations are done by those who teach that man has an immortal soul, this belief will of necessity color their translation of a text. But let's examine the Greek text of this verse more closely:
Sunechomai de ek toon duo Teen epithumian echoon
I am pressed for between the two a longing having
eis to analusai kai sun Christoo einai polloo gar
for the return and with Christ to be much indeed
mallon kreisson
more better
This of course gives a much different meaning than 'to depart and be with Christ'. The main difference is in the clause eis to analusai. The word analusai, only occurs one other time in the New Testament.
Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return (Gk. analusai) from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. Luke 12:34-35
This of course is in reference to Christ's second advent; the same event that Paul wrote elsewhere that he greatly longed for.
In Greek literature, analusai can be used as either 'depart', or 'return'. So what decides how it should be translated in Philippians 1:23? Simple; the bias of the translator. There is no good reason why Paul could not have said that his great longing was for the return of Christ as opposed to his own death. The reader should note in the Greek text above that the definite article 'the' appears before analusai, which points to a defined specific event; THE return. The reader will also notice that the definite article does not appear in our English translations. The bias of our translators has obviously affected how they have translated this verse because they already assumed that man has an immortal soul which can depart at death.
***
When I was younger I would be greatly distressed at someone saying we weren't conscious and with God at the moment of our physical death. But now, I am confident that I can trust Him to raise me at the right time and finish what He has begun in me.
Praise our Father and His son. Bless everyone today.
Well, I'm still wondering about the location of heaven, this is the best I can do.
Heaven(s) H8064 shâmayim shâmeh from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve): - air
Heaven G3772 ouranos (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension heaven (as the abode of God); by implication happiness, power, eternity; specifically the Gospel (Christianity): - air, heaven ([-ly]), sky.
Seekfirst, Oman,
Would that we all had the attitude of exploring you 2 have shown.
Seekfirst said, "now I don't have any opinion...just a few more Scriptures to study..."
Oman said, "I know the jews believed in levels of heaven, like when Paul said he knew a man that was caught up to the 3rd level of Heaven. Also heaven means high places and often times is referring to positions of power. This is why it is so confusing, everything has complex jewish meanings from thousands of years ago and also symbolic meanings in certain places."
This could be wrong but A hebrew scholar once told me(if I remember correctly) that the 1st heaven is the earth, the second heaven is the sky or atmosphere, and the third heaven is what's beyond that or "out of this world"
I have no idea what the 7th heaven is supposed to be.
Quote from: scarletwren on January 02, 2013, 09:46:09 PM
Hi,
Some of you know me from another forum. I rejoined here recently but haven't made any replies.
Many use Phillipians 1:22-23 to defend our conscious presence with God at death.
Here is a MOST interesting alternative understanding from http://www.harvestherald.com/mbls/chapter_five.htm:
***
Returning now to our text:
For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
What we are actually seeing here, are not two options which Paul is considering (life and death), but three (life, death, and resurrection), although this is hidden in our English translation. Because most Bible translations are done by those who teach that man has an immortal soul, this belief will of necessity color their translation of a text. But let's examine the Greek text of this verse more closely:
Sunechomai de ek toon duo Teen epithumian echoon
I am pressed for between the two a longing having
eis to analusai kai sun Christoo einai polloo gar
for the return and with Christ to be much indeed
mallon kreisson
more better
This of course gives a much different meaning than 'to depart and be with Christ'. The main difference is in the clause eis to analusai. The word analusai, only occurs one other time in the New Testament.
Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return (Gk. analusai) from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. Luke 12:34-35
This of course is in reference to Christ's second advent; the same event that Paul wrote elsewhere that he greatly longed for.
In Greek literature, analusai can be used as either 'depart', or 'return'. So what decides how it should be translated in Philippians 1:23? Simple; the bias of the translator. There is no good reason why Paul could not have said that his great longing was for the return of Christ as opposed to his own death. The reader should note in the Greek text above that the definite article 'the' appears before analusai, which points to a defined specific event; THE return. The reader will also notice that the definite article does not appear in our English translations. The bias of our translators has obviously affected how they have translated this verse because they already assumed that man has an immortal soul which can depart at death.
***
When I was younger I would be greatly distressed at someone saying we weren't conscious and with God at the moment of our physical death. But now, I am confident that I can trust Him to raise me at the right time and finish what He has begun in me.
Praise our Father and His son. Bless everyone today.
:dsunny:
Understandings of this?
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies.. he who believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"
A man who doesn't kinow what is going to happen when he dies and calls himself a coward because he is afraid to die:
To be, or not to be, that is the question:
Whether 'tis Nobler in the mind to suffer
The Slings and Arrows of outrageous Fortune,
Or to take Arms against a Sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them: to die, to sleep
No more; and by a sleep, to say we end
The Heart-ache, and the thousand Natural shocks
That Flesh is heir to? 'Tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wished. To die to sleep,
To sleep, perchance to Dream; Aye, there's the rub,
For in that sleep of death, what dreams may come,
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause. There's the respect
That makes Calamity of so long life:
For who would bear the Whips and Scorns of time,
The Oppressor's wrong, the proud man's Contumely,
The pangs of despised Love, the Law's delay,
The insolence of Office, and the Spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his Quietus make
With a bare Bodkin? Who would Fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered Country, from whose bourn
No Traveller returns, Puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have,
Than fly to others that we know not of.
Thus Conscience does make Cowards of us all,
And thus the Native hue of Resolution
Is sicklied o'er, with the pale cast of Thought,
And enterprises of great pitch and moment,
With this regard their Currents turn awry,
And lose the name of Action. Soft you now,
The fair Ophelia? Nymph, in thy Orisons
Be all my sins remembered.
Versus
A man who does know what will happen when he dies and says he is bold and confident and even longing for death.
20 For I fully expect and hope that I will never be ashamed, but that I will continue to be bold for Christ, as I have been in the past. And I trust that my life will bring honor to Christ, whether I live or die. 21 For to me, living means living for Christ, and dying is even better.
22 But if I live, I can do more fruitful work for Christ. So I really don't know which is better. 23 I'm torn between two desires: I long to go and be with Christ, which would be far better for me. 24 But for your sakes, it is better that I continue to live.
25 Knowing this, I am convinced that I will remain alive so I can continue to help all of you grow and experience the joy of your faith. 26 And when I come to you again, you will have even more reason to take pride in Christ Jesus because of what he is doing through me.
--Phil 1
Paul says he is torn between two [duo] choices, to live or to die. I don't see any third choice there. One choice is to depart this life and be with Christ. One choice is to stay alive in the flesh and be with his churches. He decides that for himself it would be better to die and be with Christ but for their sakes it would be better if he stay alive so he can continue to teach them.
This is not the only time that Paul says that to leave the body [die] is to be with Christ.
6 So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord. 7 For we live by believing and not by seeing. 8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.
--2 Cor 5
Well, we know where this discussion usually leads :o)
Since Jesus says that the one who believes in Him has passed from death unto life, I believe that. Since Paul says that the dead in Christ are asleep in some places and "with the Lord" in others, there is a dichotomy- a perpendicular paradigm so to speak LOLOL
Personally, I think there are always two views of time and eternity. One from this mortal plain. One from the "olam" persective.
In this time frame I think the dead in Christ are asleep- yet, it is a sleep in which no one is conscious of time so, I believe that everyone awakens in the same "Day of the Lord", seemingly the instant after they fell asleep.
But then, the writer of Hebrews says we are come unto Zion, the heavenly Jerusalem, to Myriads of angels and the "spirits of righteous men made perfect"- so, if you look strictly from within the time conscious view- they are absent from the body and present with the Lord
But then, Paul said he made no claim, as yet, to having apprehended the "out- resurrection of the dead"(ex-anastasis), which he was determined to "press on towards" as the "mark of the prize of the upward call of God". I think that is what all of the "spirits of righteous men made perfect" were rewarded with as overcomers, and why Moses and Elijah and some others who surround the throne of God while awaiting "the rest of their number" are- wave offering, first fruits saints.
Ex-anastasis is only used on THIS ONE OCCASION BY PAUL in all the scripture, and I think an excellent explanation of this is located here.......
www.bibleone.net/BF15.htm (http://www.bibleone.net/BF15.htm)
scarletwren
Thanks for this, very interesting.
you're welcome
I love finding out new information on various verses. I don't always change my mind/perspective as a result but sometimes I do.
Ded2daworld, re: W. Virginia "almost heaven"
eaglesway, re: And it is so :o)
Thanks, I really enjoyed this very brief lighthearted exchange; I get too serious sometimes, well, maybe a lot of times!!
Anyway, I invite you guys to come to "my heaven on earth"-->riding the open range in The Big Hole Valley, Pioneer Mountains area of Montana. I "love" horses, wide open spaces, mountains...
even found a hymn to support my idea of "heaven on earth" :girlheart: yes, I'm a girl
BEAUTIFUL VALLEY (John Scotford, 1872)
There's a beautiful valley brought to view,
From the place where my feet have trod,
With a crystal river passing through,
That flows from the throne of God.
On either side of this lovely vale
Is the tree of life so fair,
Whose leaves and fruits with the sun's soft beams
Breathe health on the balmy air.
Refrain
O beautiful valley, lovely valley,
As sung by the seer of old,
And its wonderful city! lovely city,
With streets of burnished gold.
This beautiful valley, clad in green,
As bards were wont to tell,
Is the loveliest spot that eye hath seen,
Where the meek and the lowly dwell;
The storms of anger and pride that break
On sides of the hills above,
When fierce winds war and mountains shake,
Come not to this vale of love.
Refrain
This beautiful vale is the home of peace,
'Tis Emanuel's land most fair,
Where doubts, and fears, and discords cease,
For the spirit of love is there;
And visions bright of a lovelier clime
Cheer the humble dwellers there,
And many voices whisper, "come,
O come to the vale most fair."
Refrain
'Tis here we'll dwell, in this lovely vale,
While our forms are growing old,
And when our mortal life shall fail,
And in death our haands we fold,
We'll meekly tread the lowly path,
That the great Redeemer trod,
And live with Him in our home above,
In that city of our God.
Quote from: omantodd2000 on January 01, 2013, 02:38:58 AM
Just wanted to get peoples opinions, not looking to debate them. Is the place of reward and resurrection in Heaven or Earth? What do you believe happens when you die? If you can use direct evidence from the bible that would be helpful.
There are two uniquely described resurrections in the Bible:
Israelite ResurrectionEzekiel 37
New King James Ver.
3 And He said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?"
4 Again He said to me, "Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD! 5 Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: "Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live. 6 I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. Then you shall know that I am the LORD.
.......and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 Indeed, as I looked, the sinews and the flesh came upon them, and the skin covered them over; but there was no breath in them.
9 Also He said to me, "Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live."'" 10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great army.
The unique perspective here is that these are real people raised from their graves in the form of flesh & blood.......a return to their original state of existence.
11 Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say, 'Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!' 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
Thus is the identification of those who participate in this resurrection, only Israelites:
13 Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. 14 I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it," says the LORD.
......all those Israelites who have ever lived & died anywhere in the world through all the generations are resurrected & restored to the Land of Promise from all points of the compass to which they had been scattered.
21 "Then say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again.
25 Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children's children....
Body of Christ Resurrection1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
New King James Version (NKJV)
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.[a]
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Next, followed by Paul's description of our resurrection........that of the Body of Christ:
1 Cor 51-54
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory.
Conclusions:
These are the two detailed resurrections described in the Bible. The contrasting differences are stark to say the least. The resurrection of Israel is a return to flesh & blood. The resurrection of the Body of Christ requires a change of body type that is immortal. Why is this?
The reason why this is involves the uniqueness of promises of rulership God has assigned to the two groups.
God has assigned Israel pre-eminence over the nations of the earth; flesh & blood body types are perfectly suitable for living on earth.
Zechariah 8:22-23
New King James Version (NKJV)
22 Yes, many peoples and strong nations
Shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem,
And to pray before the LORD.'
23 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: 'In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God Is with you
Revelation 21:24-26
New King James Version (NKJV)
24 And the nations of those who are saved[a] shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.
25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.
God has assigned the Body of Christ pre-eminence over the celestial beings populating the Universe; flesh & blood cannot exist in the vacuous nature of environs beyond Earth's atmosphere & gravity, a different body type is necessary.
1 Corinthians 6:3
New King James Version (NKJV)
3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?
We are not told why we are destined to judge angels but they must be the ones described in Jude:
Jude 1:6
New King James Version (NKJV)
6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day.
Right on PaulL
I would like to add that whenever the Bible uses the term "flesh and blood" it means the natural man. "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God"
Why? Because the natural man has sinful blood.
Those bones resurrected in Israel there was no mention of the blood.
While Blood sustaiins us, it also causes decay within the body.
I believe we will all receive a "blood transfusion" of sorts whereas our
sinful blood is replaced with the sinless blood of the Lamb. (This is possibly where we "put on" immortality)
We drink the blood of Christ(wine) as a remembrance and eat his flesh.(bread) Symbolizing our being one with Him
"Bone of his Bone, Life of his life" (The life is in the blood and with sinners like us, so is the death) But our new life is in the blood of Christ.
Thanks, Paul.
What if you'd rather be on earth?
I'm not a celestial type.
Molly, how do you know till you've tried it. Maybe the "new" Molly will love it :icon_jokercolor:
Quoteauthor=Molly link=topic=10956.msg147520#msg147520 date=1357250083]
Thanks, Paul.
QuoteWhat if you'd rather be on earth?
If you are an Israelite, maybe you'll get that choice someday, but not if you are in the Body of Christ.
QuoteI'm not a celestial type.
You will be, sooner or later.....I would pick sooner & let Christ be about the business of figuring out how he's going to handle it.
Israel gets to rule planet Earth, the Body of Christ gets sent to the outermost regions of the Universe to rule over rebellious angels. I think winging it around the celestial cosmos would be a lot more interesting.
:sigh: :msealed: :umnick: :pitiful: :scratchhead: :dsunny: :HeartThrob: :eek:
Quote from: Paul L on January 04, 2013, 01:07:11 AM
Quoteauthor=Molly link=topic=10956.msg147520#msg147520 date=1357250083]
Thanks, Paul.
QuoteWhat if you'd rather be on earth?
If you are an Israelite, maybe you'll get that choice someday, but not if you are in the Body of Christ.
QuoteI'm not a celestial type.
You will be, sooner or later.....I would pick sooner & let Christ be about the business of figuring out how he's going to handle it.
Israel gets to rule planet Earth, the Body of Christ gets sent to the outermost regions of the Universe to rule over rebellious angels. I think winging it around the celestial cosmos would be a lot more interesting.
Some interesting opinions, in my opinion
Quote from: eaglesway on January 04, 2013, 06:36:40 AM
Quote from: Paul L on January 04, 2013, 01:07:11 AM
Quoteauthor=Molly link=topic=10956.msg147520#msg147520 date=1357250083]
Thanks, Paul.
QuoteWhat if you'd rather be on earth?
If you are an Israelite, maybe you'll get that choice someday, but not if you are in the Body of Christ.
QuoteI'm not a celestial type.
You will be, sooner or later.....I would pick sooner & let Christ be about the business of figuring out how he's going to handle it.
Israel gets to rule planet Earth, the Body of Christ gets sent to the outermost regions of the Universe to rule over rebellious angels. I think winging it around the celestial cosmos would be a lot more interesting.
Some interesting opinions, in my opinion
Some interesting opinions, in my opinion
LOL
Quote from: Paul L on January 04, 2013, 01:07:11 AM
Quoteauthor=Molly link=topic=10956.msg147520#msg147520 date=1357250083]
Thanks, Paul.
QuoteWhat if you'd rather be on earth?
If you are an Israelite, maybe you'll get that choice someday, but not if you are in the Body of Christ.
QuoteI'm not a celestial type.
You will be, sooner or later.....I would pick sooner & let Christ be about the business of figuring out how he's going to handle it.
Israel gets to rule planet Earth, the Body of Christ gets sent to the outermost regions of the Universe to rule over rebellious angels. I think winging it around the celestial cosmos would be a lot more interesting.
Paul I think you should remember Heb 1:14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation? There are no rebel angles of God. Remember his will is done in Heaven as the lords prayer says.
Quote from: omantodd2000 on January 05, 2013, 06:12:13 AM
Quote from: Paul L on January 04, 2013, 01:07:11 AM
Quoteauthor=Molly link=topic=10956.msg147520#msg147520 date=1357250083]
Thanks, Paul.
QuoteWhat if you'd rather be on earth?
If you are an Israelite, maybe you'll get that choice someday, but not if you are in the Body of Christ.
QuoteI'm not a celestial type.
You will be, sooner or later.....I would pick sooner & let Christ be about the business of figuring out how he's going to handle it.
Israel gets to rule planet Earth, the Body of Christ gets sent to the outermost regions of the Universe to rule over rebellious angels. I think winging it around the celestial cosmos would be a lot more interesting.
Paul I think you should remember Heb 1:14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation? There are no rebel angles of God. Remember his will is done in Heaven as the lords prayer says.
According to Jude 1:6 there is a whole group of them who abandoned the position of being ministering spirits. The theme of the entire book of Jude dwells on the depravity of mankind, and as I read that book the source of it goes right back to verse 6.
These who left their "first estate" are not those whom I would consider spirits who are ministering to me, these are contentious spirits doing everything they can to oppress me, and you, the nation of Israel, and ultimately all of mankind whom they seek to destroy for reasons unbeknownst to us.
According to Jude 1:6 there is a whole group of them who abandoned the position of being ministering spirits. The theme of the entire book of Jude dwells on the depravity of mankind, and as I read that book the source of it goes right back to verse 6.
These who left their "first estate" are not those whom I would consider spirits who are ministering to me, these are contentious spirits doing everything they can to oppress me, and you, the nation of Israel, and ultimately all of mankind whom they seek to destroy for reasons unbeknownst to us.
[/quote]
Here is a link to a very good explanation of Jude that I read many years ago hope it helps you to understand it better.
http://www.wrestedscripture.com/b07satan/the_angels_that_sinned.html
[e]Yet the number of the Israelites
will be like the sand of the sea,
which cannot be measured or counted.
And in the place where they were told:
You are not My people,
they will be called: Sons of the living God.
Quote from: omantodd2000 on January 06, 2013, 08:55:01 AM
According to Jude 1:6 there is a whole group of them who abandoned the position of being ministering spirits. The theme of the entire book of Jude dwells on the depravity of mankind, and as I read that book the source of it goes right back to verse 6.
These who left their "first estate" are not those whom I would consider spirits who are ministering to me, these are contentious spirits doing everything they can to oppress me, and you, the nation of Israel, and ultimately all of mankind whom they seek to destroy for reasons unbeknownst to us.
Good Post.
Also, Jude serves as a kind of an introduction to John's revelation. Satan falls from heaven. The Bride comes down out of heaven. This theme of leaving ones proper estate is given as an example to us, who are to be ministers of reconciliation.
Paul speaks to it,
For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching; or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness. Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good. Be devoted to one another in brotherly love;
give preference to one another in honor;
(Rom 12:3-10)
Notice Paul says, "For through the grace given to me say...." He remains within his proper estate claiming no authority other than the grace manifesting by God's will through him.
His exhortation is that all the members abide within their proper estate
towards one another, (mutually respecting among ourselves that EACH ONE HAS A MEASURE) explaining that this is the key to the proper functioning of the Body of Christ.
Peter speaks to it as well,
Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness;
nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock. And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. You younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders; and all of you,
clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE. Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you at the proper time,
(1Pe 5:1-6)
We are a kingdom of priests, ministering spirits sent into the world "as sheep led to slaughter all the day". In this dispensation Christ is redeeming the creation by sacrifice, but we all want to act like lions towards one another- leaving our proper estate, winding up in bondage, unable to function together in the Body of Christ as ministers of reconciliation.
Ironic isn't it?
well..there have been many 'spiritual" giants on the earth..and they continue to this day. They Lord it over
congregations instead of ministering and serving those who are to inherit salvation. Just think of
the inquisition...the Taliban for a few examples. Jim Jones etc. these serve as examples.....overcome
by the prince of darkness they takes [churches] women..as many as they want.........they become richer and
more powerful....and rule over man to their harm. They devour widows houses[jw's have many widows who
leave their estates to 'the organization]" You see them asking for money on t.v...widows on soc sec pensions
who live in penury mail in money..all the while they live in shameless luxury.
The true God rewards with more light,more truth,more understanding...these 'sons of God' take the way
of Balaam=curse man to eternal torture for money. Jezebel churches[harlotry] that are betrothed to Christ
commit spiritual adultery with these fallen sons of God...they bring forth bastards and reprobates spiritual
deforemed 'monsters' unrighteous offspring[of which God seeks righteous offspring]
Gog's crowd that fight against and surround the camp of the Holy city He loves. They themselves are
fallen and overcome..and they with adulterous eyes seek to take captive others into their warped doctrines.
they tear off hooves..andthe sheep are like those skinned and thrown about when they are done with their
destructive use of them.. They pillage and plunder.the flock of God. The sheep do not belong to them..
but they in their presumptousness Lord it over the flock of God and do not treat them with tenderness..
You will find this typology/examples..in both the kings of the earth[governments that pillage their people
and religions] Beasts,harlots,false prophets[Balaam] those that take the way of Cain..those that want to
rule over you to your harm...all the while declaring...I serve you..while they serve themselves.
Look! when Israel wanted a king like the nations around them...they have rejected ME ,He said to Samuel
they will...take...take..take.. Now...He who has the Legal right to the people..is about to TAKE WHAT IS
LAWFULLY HIS. Ezekiel 28;17 Your heart became proud on account of your beauty,and you corrupted
your wisdom,because of your splendour. SO I THREW YOU TO THE EARTH[these preachers that accuse men
curse men for profit/satan the accusor that accuses them night and day before God] thrown out of heaven.
You see..when Jesus died on the cross..the Lamb that takes away all their sins..legally removed the
rebuke of His peoplefrom off them...as new creatures to have an eternal celestial inheritance[token of spirit]
they continue to slander celestial beings...pronouncing judgement and curses on those Christ removed
the account of sin for. Who will condemn us..for which Christ died? well plenty of fallen overcome men,
that's who. And so,satan knowing his time is short brings great woe upon the earth[nation against nation
kingdom against kingdom] demonic maddness goes forth......deceiving those who did not believe that
Christ legally removed[blotted out] the charge of sin against man....Pharoah won't let go..new laws..to accuse
man by..to pillage and rob as he seeks rulership of the whole world.....New religions to kill and accuse
man by.
the disciples were talking among themselves as to who should be the greatest among them,in the Kingdom of
Heaven. Jesus spoke to them..and told them that the servant of all would be the greatest among them.
Look..the Branch..my servant shall act wisely...He took away the sin of all men....of all men He takes away
their sin. Can a nation [all Israel] be born in a day? Yes......that Day on the Cross...All men were reckoned
in Christ..who tasted death for ALL men. that some are overcome and do not know it..does that change
the fact of what Christ/God have done? No....each in his own order..according to the will of God..will enter
Look! the harlots and tax-collectors[despized sinners] enter in ahead of you!
P.s. if you are Born again from Above..you are a new creature..a celestial creature. Fallen men[angels
with ministries of condemnation]will
slander and accuse those whom Christ/God have made spotless and free of wrinkles.. Michael said,
"May the Lord rebuke you,satan" THE LORD,WHO HAS CHOSEN JERUSALEM,REBUKE YOU!
IS THIS MAN Not A BURNING STICK[DEAD BRANCHES]SNATCHED FROM THE FIRE.
The dead branches in Christ are snatched from the fire..their filthy clothes are removed...THEN HE SAID
TO JOSHUA....SEE I HAVE...TAKEN AWAY YOUR SIN....and I will put rich garments on you[immortality]
Put a clean turban on his head...=crown of truth and righteousness from God and Christ
Quote from: omantodd2000 on January 06, 2013, 08:55:01 AM
According to Jude 1:6 there is a whole group of them who abandoned the position of being ministering spirits. The theme of the entire book of Jude dwells on the depravity of mankind, and as I read that book the source of it goes right back to verse 6.
These who left their "first estate" are not those whom I would consider spirits who are ministering to me, these are contentious spirits doing everything they can to oppress me, and you, the nation of Israel, and ultimately all of mankind whom they seek to destroy for reasons unbeknownst to us.
QuoteHere is a link to a very good explanation of Jude that I read many years ago hope it helps you to understand it better.
http://www.wrestedscripture.com/b07satan/the_angels_that_sinned.html
The book of Enoch stuff I have no interest in. I do know that if demonic spirits can possess people & cause them to act with such unseemly conduct that it requires the spirit of Christ to dislodge their presence from within the host, then they do play a role in men's affairs. The site you linked to, seems to suggest rebellious spirits play a far smaller role than many Christian fundamentalists think they do.
I only know from reading about the acts of Christ in casting out demonic spirits, that indeed they play a role in the affairs of men, or they could never possess the bodies of human hosts. I have strong suspicions that UFO activity & appearances of the "grays" with their facial insect-like appearances may be part of this demonic activity, but I don't go around seeking them out because I'm looking for a thrill & need something to do with my spare time, so I actually don't care that much about it, or fictional tales about angels having sex with human women & creating "giants".
It's for Christians and anyone that has an interest in the subject matter. As a guide all topics should have some kind of reference to UR or scripture in some way.
People will always state their opinions but tentmaker does not endorse anything extrabiblical including, aliens, UFO's, conspiracies, or so called "lost books" of the Bible. Members may state their opinion and we "let it go" the first time or two if it is contrary to or outside bible sripture. If it is continually brought up as an issue as if someone has an agenda or if they are seemingly trying to stir up dissension. That's when we as moderators will intervene.
Quote from: Paul L on January 04, 2013, 01:07:11 AM
Israel gets to rule planet Earth, the Body of Christ gets sent to the outermost regions of the Universe to rule over rebellious angels. I think winging it around the celestial cosmos would be a lot more interesting.
While regularly a part of dipSINsationalism, this, "Racial Jews ruling over the Earth and gentile Christians, that is, racially other nations ruling in the heavens" has never been accompanied by any scripture stating just such a thing. I therefore refuse it. Specially when God's purpose is understood, reversion to works of the flesh and carnal identities become obvious and cannot any more satisfy. Let us not say this is the kingdom of God which is yet to come when we who have believed have already been partaking of the kingdom Jesus says is not of this present world system. It is the Father, 13 "Who rescues us out of the jurisdiction of Darkness, and transports us into the kingdom of the Son of His love..." (Co 1
13, Conc. Lit.)
It reminds me of a question that displays a problem raised by the racist aspect of the rapture doctrine, "If, as a believer, I am racially at least 51% directly descended from Abraham, will I be left behind at the rapture?"
Here is what God's written word actually says about all this: 14 For He is our Peace, Who makes both one, and razes the central wall of the barrier 15 (the enmity in His flesh), nullifying the law of precepts in decrees, that He should be
creating the two, in Himself, into one new humanity, making peace; 16 and should be reconciling both in one body to God through the cross, killing the enmity in it." (Ep 2
14-16, Conc. Lit.) This rebuilding of the partition which was torn down in the death of Christ is a central feature in dipSINsationalism. It is a reason to dislike such teaching.
A "New Man" has come forth. It is constitutionally different from the Adam man. It is of another substance than soil. It is an immortal, a deathless life, begun now in spirit when we're born from above, with foretastes promising the full liberation that is coming even to our bodies. In Christ, cultural, sexual, carnal, and these racist identities are no longer valid. When controlled by the love of Christ we no longer know any man, not even Christ, after the flesh. That's Bible, and you can take it to the bank!
I'm with reformer on this one. In Christ, "there is no Jew or Greek slave or free"
and Paul said that if we are inChrist we are heirs to the promise made to the Jews and therefore descendants of Abraham.
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 09, 2013, 02:06:57 PM
I'm with reformer on this one. In Christ, "there is no Jew or Greek slave or free"
and Paul said that if we are inChrist we are heirs to the promise made to the Jews and therefore descendants of Abraham.
......of course you do......it's called Hyper-Preterism......Replacement Theology..... anything that diminishes fulfillment of God's promises to national Israel. Two thirds of the Bible context is about God's promises to Israel, but you Preterists are so biased against Dispensationalism that Reformer can't even find the wherewithal to spell the word correctly.
So no refutation of scripture - just an appeal to a doctrine made up by men?
...and calling us preterists? as though by seperating us into a group different than yours you can
dismiss what was said?
I've said many times before, no one has a corner on the truth, man or group, preterists are wrong on some things, dispensationalists are wrong on some things. I don't care what either group says.
What does scripture say?
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 09, 2013, 03:43:54 PM
So no refutation of scripture - just an appeal to a doctrine made up by men?
...and calling us preterists? as though by seperating us into a group different than yours you can
dismiss what was said?
I've said many times before, no one has a corner on the truth, man or group, preterists are wrong on some things, dispensationalists are wrong on some things. I don't care what either group says.
What does scripture say?
"What does scripture say?" Glory I really like that! :dsunny: :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: reFORMer on January 09, 2013, 08:16:39 AM
Quote from: Paul L on January 04, 2013, 01:07:11 AM
Israel gets to rule planet Earth, the Body of Christ gets sent to the outermost regions of the Universe to rule over rebellious angels. I think winging it around the celestial cosmos would be a lot more interesting.
While regularly a part of dipSINsationalism, this, "Racial Jews ruling over the Earth and gentile Christians, that is, racially other nations ruling in the heavens" has never been accompanied by any scripture stating just such a thing. I therefore refuse it. Specially when God's purpose is understood, reversion to works of the flesh and carnal identities become obvious and cannot any more satisfy. Let us not say this is the kingdom of God which is yet to come when we who have believed have already been partaking of the kingdom Jesus says is not of this present world system. It is the Father, 13 "Who rescues us out of the jurisdiction of Darkness, and transports us into the kingdom of the Son of His love..." (Co 113, Conc. Lit.)
It reminds me of a question that displays a problem raised by the racist aspect of the rapture doctrine, "If, as a believer, I am racially at least 51% directly descended from Abraham, will I be left behind at the rapture?"
Here is what God's written word actually says about all this: 14 For He is our Peace, Who makes both one, and razes the central wall of the barrier 15 (the enmity in His flesh), nullifying the law of precepts in decrees, that He should be creating the two, in Himself, into one new humanity, making peace; 16 and should be reconciling both in one body to God through the cross, killing the enmity in it." (Ep 214-16, Conc. Lit.) This rebuilding of the partition which was torn down in the death of Christ is a central feature in dipSINsationalism. It is a reason to dislike such teaching.
A "New Man" has come forth. It is constitutionally different from the Adam man. It is of another substance than soil. It is an immortal, a deathless life, begun now in spirit when we're born from above, with foretastes promising the full liberation that is coming even to our bodies. In Christ, cultural, sexual, carnal, and these racist identities are no longer valid. When controlled by the love of Christ we no longer know any man, not even Christ, after the flesh. That's Bible, and you can take it to the bank!
:thumbsup: :dsunny:
Just to keep the conversation open here, I am aware that there seems to be a separate resurrection spoken of for the Jews, aside from the first and second resurrection spoken of in the book of Revelation.
The dead bones resurrection in Ezekiel seems to be talking about a resurrection of a flesh and blood people with God's spirit inside of them. The book of Daniel seems to be talking about Jews being raised together whether they have done bad or good because some are raised to endure aionic contempt. Isaiah and elsewhere talks about the peaceable kingdom on earth where a man will sit under his own fig tree and if he dies before 100 years old it will be considered a curse. At 100 years old, he will still be considered a child.
This has led me to think that some [Jews?] will be living on earth in earthly bodies during the 1000 year reign of Christ and living very long lives in the flesh, the way it was before the flood.
There's plenty of scripture, so let's not fly off the handle here. We can take the time to cite it and peruse it without food fights.
Quote from: ReformerA "New Man" has come forth. It is constitutionally different from the Adam man. It is of another substance than soil. It is an immortal, a deathless life, begun now in spirit when we're born from above, with foretastes promising the full liberation that is coming even to our bodies. In Christ, cultural, sexual, carnal, and these racist identities are no longer valid. When controlled by the love of Christ we no longer know any man, not even Christ, after the flesh. That's Bible, and you can take it to the bank!
This is most certainly true, and it could still be true without contradicting the other.
That man through Christ has been made immortal in a glorified body does not contradict other men being made very long lived in the flesh. Assuming that is the case, of course.
Thanks Micah :dsunny:
Reformer said, "In Christ, cultural, sexual, carnal, and these racist identities are no longer valid. When controlled by the love of Christ we no longer know any man, not even Christ, after the flesh."
Absolutely. :thumbsup:
From what I've sen in the old testament, The Jews were held to a higher standard than that of the pagan nations around them- God had been with them without a doubt.
We, that trust in Christ before we die physically, will be held to a higher standard than even that of the pharisees for the Holy Spirit of the Living God is in us. We will be held to a higher standard than the "token" christian in our churches - the pharisees of today.
We ALL probably believe various bits and pieces from various perspectives/belief systems. There is MUCH overlap.
A little mercy and grace goes a long ways, for others and self. Seems to me it's good to focus more on a sort of "could you show me where you support that view in scripture, because here's what I see it saying"/"I disagree, and here's why [scripture]".
:2c:
Are not labels made for description? Just wondering :sigh:
IMO, Labels are used to put people in a box. By labeling them, you have defined them and think you know what they are about and what they believe. This is belittling to the person labeled and bigotry on the labeler. :2c:
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 10, 2013, 01:10:03 AM
IMO, Labels are used to put people in a box. By labeling them, you have defined them and think you know what they are about and what they believe. This is belittling to the person labeled and bigotry on the labeler. :2c:
That's a huge part of it, IMO. Maybe I believe ONE thing and express it, that falls into some "labeled category". So someone doesn't agree with that point, calls me that "name" thinking they've nailed down my wrong and they fully know their right...but there may be 20 other things in that labeled group that I DON"T believe - and maybe their view isn't the absolute 110% "right" one either. (Have none of us ever changed our view on anything?) So then we can start arguing about what I am and what you think I am, and end up wasting a whole lot of energy on that. :dunno2: Not saying it's easy or clear-cut. Maybe just something to be aware of?
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 10, 2013, 12:58:45 AM
Are not labels made for description? Just wondering :sigh:
IMO labels are made for deception. Every label I know describes in general terms things that have great variation in degree- imputing the most extreme negative aspect of the "label" to anyone who holds any aspect of that theology. That's just my experience with labeling.
No matter, I didn't invent the label and try my very utmost not to use them, but as long as theories within theology show ideas and reasons for how to understand the written word, and men accept it, some how labels just pop up. I really never heard of a lot of labels until I seen how many posters get labeled on this site. I will accept the label of a saint. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 10, 2013, 02:40:18 AM
No matter, I didn't invent the label and try my very utmost not to use them, but as long as theories within theology show ideas and reasons for how to understand the written word, and men accept it, some how labels just pop up. I really never heard of a lot of labels until I seen how many posters get labeled on this site. I will accept the label of a saint. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Really interesting comment, Saint Micah. :angel4:
From your dispensationalistpartialpreteristultimatereconciliationalistbiblicaluniversalistposttribulationalpremillinialistpredestinationalsavedbygrace friend, James.
Well just what did Paul call his believers
Rom_1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom_8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Rom_12:13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
Rom_15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
Rom_15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
Rom_15:31 That I may be delivered from them that do not believe in Judaea; and that my service which I have for Jerusalem may be accepted of the saints;
Rom_16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
Rom_16:15 Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.
1Co_1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
1Co_6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
1Co_6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co_14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1Co_16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
1Co_16:15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)
2Co_1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
2Co_8:4 Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.
2Co_9:1 For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you:
2Co_9:12 For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;
2Co_13:13 All the saints salute you.
Eph_1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Eph_1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
Eph_1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph_2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph_3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
Eph_3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph_4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph_5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph_6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
Php_1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
Php_4:22 All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are of Caesar's household.
Col_1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Col_1:4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,
Col_1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col_1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
1Th_3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
2Th_1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
1Ti_5:10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.
Phm_1:5 Hearing of thy love and faith, which thou hast toward the Lord Jesus, and toward all saints;
Phm_1:7 For we have great joy and consolation in thy love, because the bowels of the saints are refreshed by thee, brother.
Heb_6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
Heb_13:24 Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.
You're right. Also all those carnal (living according to the flesh), imperfect folks he admonished at Corinth, who had been given faith to believe in Jesus as their savior, he also called saints! Based on the applied blood of Calvary. It's one of my favorite little, oft-overlooked nuggets in scripture. :thumbsup:
My "interesting comment" was about the bolded, that you hadn't heard so many labels until you came here. The little angel thingy was just a joke. Then I edited my signature with my own label. :)
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 10, 2013, 12:58:45 AM
Are not labels made for description? Just wondering :sigh:
Like "
dipSINsationalism" which none of the rest of you so far posting on this subject are having a problem with? This manner of posting is not in the spirit of Christ, and not a single one of you so-called moderators have decried it's stridently abusive tone, and demand that it be halted.
Jabcat- is
dipSINsationalism OK with you?
Eagleway- is
dipSINsationalism OK with you?
Ded2- is
dipSINsationalism OK with you?
Come on .......the three of you offer up & utter so many platitudes about treating others with respect in the spirit of diverse opinions, but you refuse to apply that platitude to those with whom you have doctrinal sentiment (Preterism). Are the slivers you so fondly search for within the eye of another, not simply 2 x 4's in your own?
I posted earlier to take any further moderation issues to PM. If you had, you'd know we were discussing this as a mod group. You want to know what a derogatory term is? "So-called moderator" - DIRECTLY used as an insult to a specific person. Which is the second time you've used it, and this is the second time you're being told it's not allowed to call out moderation issues on the boards.
This is the last warning.
Quote from: jabcat on January 10, 2013, 04:13:19 AM
You're right. Also all those carnal (living according to the flesh), imperfect folks he admonished at Corinth, who had been given faith to believe in Jesus as their savior, he also called saints! Based on the applied blood of Calvary. It's one of my favorite little, oft-overlooked nuggets in scripture. :thumbsup:
My "interesting comment" was about the bolded, that you hadn't heard so many labels until you came here. The little angel thingy was just a joke. Then I edited my signature with my own label. :)
"he also called saints" :thumbsup: one of my favorites, too!
For all the saints, who from their labors rest,
who thee by faith before the world confessed,
thy name, O Jesus, be forever blest.
Alleluia, Alleluia!
2. Thou wast their rock, their fortress, and their might;
thou Lord, their captain in the well-fought fight;
thou in the darkness drear, their one true light.
Alleluia, Alleluia!
3. O may thy soldiers, faithful, true, and bold,
fight as the saints who nobly fought of old,
and win with them the victor's crown of gold.
Alleluia, Alleluia!
4. O blest communion, fellowship divine!
We feebly struggle, they in glory shine;
yet all are one in thee, for all are thine.
Alleluia, Alleluia!
5. And when the strife is fierce, the warfare long,
steals on the ear the distant triumph song,
and hearts are brave again, and arms are strong.
Alleluia, Alleluia!
6. From earth's wide bounds, from ocean's farthest coast,
through gates of pearl streams in the countless host,
singing to Father, Son, and Holy Ghost:
Alleluia, Alleluia!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_UvXe-of-s
Paul, think hard about your response. Right now we have options, but you can leave me with no choice.
Quote from: Paul L on January 10, 2013, 04:23:06 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 10, 2013, 12:58:45 AM
Are not labels made for description? Just wondering :sigh:
Like "dipSINsationalism" which none of the rest of you so far posting on this subject are having a problem with? This manner of posting is not in the spirit of Christ, and not a single one of you so-called moderators have decried it's stridently abusive tone, and demand that it be halted.
Jabcat- is dipSINsationalism OK with you?
Eagleway- is dipSINsationalism OK with you?
Ded2- is dipSINsationalism OK with you?
Come on .......the three of you offer up & utter so many platitudes about treating others with respect in the spirit of diverse opinions, but you refuse to apply that platitude to those with whom you have doctrinal sentiment (Preterism). Are the slivers you so fondly search for within the eye of another, not simply 2 x 4's in your own?
This is a forum. As moderators, we make errors like everyone else. However, in order to maintain order on the forum we have a system that works. If you have a gripe against a moderator, you send it to the moderators and it DOES get discussed and if necessary, dealt with. We do not allow grandstanding against the moderators on the public forum.
You Paul, in particular are often very direct and often sometimes caustic in your delivery(the quote above is a perfect example). This doesn't bother me personally, but we discourage it on the forum
because the purpose of the forum is to discuss, in a civil manner, the doctrine of the "salvation of all". Lately this has been an issue and maybe it seems that we are a little overcautious but at times the tone (on this forum and blogs in general) gets downright ungodly prideful and spiteful, so- we have been discussing things like "labeling" and sarcasm among ourselves and looking at where to draw the line. I will tell you that very few people "squeal" about anything until there own pet doctrine gets stepped on, and then its all about "the Spirit of Christ".
We are discussing things like "silly" and "dipsinsationalism" but let me make this clear- it is nowhere near as big a deal as you are making it out to be,
We just all need to be a little more considerate of one another's sacred cows and sore points :o) That is all anyone has been trying to say.No need to use it as a talking point for the expression of outrage. It is a valid point of order- so don't use it to create disorder.
Quote from: Molly on January 10, 2013, 04:37:56 AM
Quote from: jabcat on January 10, 2013, 04:13:19 AM
You're right. Also all those carnal (living according to the flesh), imperfect folks he admonished at Corinth, who had been given faith to believe in Jesus as their savior, he also called saints! Based on the applied blood of Calvary. It's one of my favorite little, oft-overlooked nuggets in scripture. :thumbsup:
My "interesting comment" was about the bolded, that you hadn't heard so many labels until you came here. The little angel thingy was just a joke. Then I edited my signature with my own label. :)
"he also called saints" :thumbsup: one of my favorites, too!
For all the saints, who from their labors rest,
who thee by faith before the world confessed,
thy name, O Jesus, be forever blest.
Alleluia, Alleluia!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_UvXe-of-s
:thumbsup:
Two different events:
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
--1 Cor 15
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord God, thou knowest.
4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.
5 Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
--Eze 37
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQboPOM6wYA
Wow! I sure miss a lot of stuff by going to bed early!
It's weird to agree with someone and then be told that
you're only agreeing because of some labeled group.
Instead of a post that shows a different perspective,
why chide someone for agreeing with someone else?
We all have points of view. Some posters we agree with said our view as well
(or better) than we could have so we simply agree.
When someone posts what we disagree with why can't we explain our position
instead of labeling, or putting down the poster?
To me, if someone labels someone or puts them or their opinion down, it
means they can't offer valid reasons for their own (different) position.
This frustrates some and some leave - some come back when they realize that
one doesn't have to be right all the time. We are all here to learn by sharing opinions.
Once you've learned something, you can't go back to the unknowledgeable state
so your opinions change. Everyone of us has changed their opinion about at a few things
and if you stop learning, you stop growing, you stop growing, you've stopped living.
"Live, Love, Learn, Laugh" no room for "label" :dsunny: :Peace2:
I do not wish to debate it but these are not....."Two different events:
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
--1 Cor 15......"
For some reason I just looked at the first two verses and made my post silly me. (oops?"
Yep. corinthian event was different than the ezekiel event. At least IMO.
I believe saying God will still have some specific dealings with national Israel (HE knows who that is), that when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled all Israel will be saved - and that most Jews/those who follow the Jewish religion are still blinded by a veil when they read the scriptures (according to Apostle Paul) - is simply scriptural (as I understand).
I personally believe when Paul said there's neither Jew nor Greek, he was saying those of the Law (Jews) and those without the law (pagans/Gentiles) are all saved when given faith to believe on Jesus as Savior. That veil of separation has been torn down, and put into effect when God chooses who He'll have come to know Him in this age. But IMO, that's still not doing away with all the above, i.e., most of those of the Jewish religion won't be saved in this time period. (This all comes from a "partial preterist" :rolllol:). Thus, I don't believe categories are as important as what specific things the scriptures teach. :2c:
How in the world did we get on this? LOL Oh well, I guess it has SOMETHING to do with the resurrection, huh?
IMO The vision of the valley of dry bones in Ezekiel is a multi layered prophesy revealing aionian truths about how God works among His people, like, How the prophetic word precedes the outpouring of the Spirit(see John 3:3-8), and how the outpouring of the Spirit precedes the "restoration of all things"(see Acts 2:32-Acts 3:19).
Trying to tie it to one specific event is, IMO unverifiable within the scriptures. I am not saying it cannot be related to some eventual event among the Jews- I am saying it cannot verified conclusively- it is an interpretation.
The truth in Ezekiel's vision speaks loudest to me about how the Lord is going to raise up the man-child company and restore the body of Christ as we enter the depths of the last days.
That's my interpretation- and in my opinion, only one of several layers within the prophecy. Thats why Ezekiel saw "wheels within wheels with eyes all around"- that's the way the Word of God works.
Which "wheel" is the "right" wheel? If you take one wheel out of a gryoscope, will it continue to balance? It is the tension between the wheels that gives the gyroscope its power to hold a line. This (IMO) is why there is so much confusion and disagreement. Each side of the debate holds a legitimate Wheel, but the Wheels must be "JOINED AND ACTIVATED" before they FUNCTION TOGETHER and create balance.
How can that happen? Where is that place when the dry bones join and become sinewed and march out as the army of the Lord?
Prophecy to the wind, "Come O Wind"
The wind blows where it wills and you hear the sound of it but you don't kno from whence it comes or where it will go- SO IT IS with EVERYONE who is born of the Spirit. Hmmm
When the Spirit of truth comes He will teach you all things- When? After He fills you with the fulness of Christ.
Jesus Christ, Full of grace and truth, and of His fulness have we ALL received, with grace upon grace(exponentially multiplying grace).
And Great Grace Was Upon Them ALL And The Word Of The Lord Grew And Multiplied, Hmmmmm
And The Lord Added Daily To The Church Such As Were Appointed To Salvation Hmmmmmmm
Oh yeah, that was back in the days when God worked by His Spirit- He doesnt do that any more- now He works by the mighty minds and mouths of men.
I long for the good ol days meself HeHe :shakepoint:
Amen brother.
14 We know that the One who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and present us with you. 15 Indeed, everything is for your benefit, so that grace, extended through more and more people, may cause thanksgiving to increase to God's glory.
16 Therefore we do not give up. Even though our outer person is being destroyed, our inner person is being renewed day by day. 17 For our momentary light affliction[c] is producing for us an absolutely incomparable eternal weight of glory. 18 So we do not focus on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.
Your dead will live; their bodies will rise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in the dust!
For you will be covered with the morning dew,[c]
and the earth will bring out the departed spirits.
Wow Daj, those are two DYNOMITE verses, amen?
I can see the whole creation redeemed from start to finish right there :o)
He told them still another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount of flour until it worked all through the dough."
(Mat 13:33)
He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.
(Eph 1:9-10)
And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
(Rev 5:13)
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
(Joh 12:32)
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
(Rev 21:5)
My arguments for why the valley of dry bones refers to a specific end times event
1)I am a literal reader of the Bible :winkgrin:
2)The Bible has to be able to be read literally, even if a spiritual component is then added on
3)It is describing a resurrection in a particular place, a valley in Jerusalem
4)Ezekiel is present which means it is right before or at the return of the Lord
5)An army is being raised up. This does not include women and children.
6)God putting his spirit in them will be the fulfillment of an earlier prophecy where he says he will give the house of Israel and the house of Judah his spirit
7)The prophecy ends with the houses of Judah and Israel being reunited--two sticks in one hand--and living peaceably forever in the land given to them by God
8)Each one of these details can be fleshed out by scripture.
Therefore Jacob's iniquity will be purged in this way,
and the result of the removal of his sin will be this:
when he makes all the altar stones
like crushed bits of chalk,
no Asherah poles or incense altars will remain standing.
I am Yahweh, that is My name;
I will not give My glory to another
or My praise to idols.
The past events have indeed happened.
Now I declare new events;
I announce them to you before they occur."
One other thing about the valley of dry bones.
These bones have not been buried. They are lying there on the valley floor bleached out by the sun. It is as though a great army has fallen there and just left to lie and decompose where they fell. This would happen rather quicklly in desert conditions, so I am expecting that it will look as if this army has been defeated completely. Then they will be raised back to life. The thought of this gives me chills. Can you imagine the horror this will strike into the hearts of their enemies who thought they had won the battle?
I wonder if this end time scripture goes with it--
8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
--Zech 12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQboPOM6wYA
..well..the other day it occurred to me..that this is connected with Jesus speaking of Pharisees and sadducees
appearing as white-washed graves...FULL OF DEAD MEN'S BONES...and Paul's saying that all these
all Israel shall be saved...along with Gog's crowd[deceived of satan] that encamp against the camp of the Holy city
dead mens bones are spiritually dead men............covered with their 'graven' images..just as those bones
are exposed to the sun..moon stars
Quote from: eaglesway on January 11, 2013, 04:44:01 AM
IMO The vision of the valley of dry bones in Ezekiel is a multi layered prophesy revealing aionian truths about how God works among His people, like, How the prophetic word precedes the outpouring of the Spirit(see John 3:3-8), and how the outpouring of the Spirit precedes the "restoration of all things"(see Acts 2:32-Acts 3:19).
Trying to tie it to one specific event is, IMO unverifiable within the scriptures. I am not saying it cannot be related to some eventual event among the Jews- I am saying it cannot verified conclusively- it is an interpretation.
The truth in Ezekiel's vision speaks loudest to me about how the Lord is going to raise up the man-child company and restore the body of Christ as we enter the depths of the last days.
That's my interpretation- and in my opinion, only one of several layers within the prophecy. Thats why Ezekiel saw "wheels within wheels with eyes all around"- that's the way the Word of God works.
Which "wheel" is the "right" wheel? If you take one wheel out of a gryoscope, will it continue to balance? It is the tension between the wheels that gives the gyroscope its power to hold a line. This (IMO) is why there is so much confusion and disagreement. Each side of the debate holds a legitimate Wheel, but the Wheels must be "JOINED AND ACTIVATED" before they FUNCTION TOGETHER and create balance.
How can that happen? Where is that place when the dry bones join and become sinewed and march out as the army of the Lord?
Prophecy to the wind, "Come O Wind"
The wind blows where it wills and you hear the sound of it but you don't kno from whence it comes or where it will go- SO IT IS with EVERYONE who is born of the Spirit. Hmmm
When the Spirit of truth comes He will teach you all things- When? After He fills you with the fulness of Christ.
Jesus Christ, Full of grace and truth, and of His fulness have we ALL received, with grace upon grace(exponentially multiplying grace).
And Great Grace Was Upon Them ALL And The Word Of The Lord Grew And Multiplied, Hmmmmm
And The Lord Added Daily To The Church Such As Were Appointed To Salvation Hmmmmmmm
Oh yeah, that was back in the days when God worked by His Spirit- He doesnt do that any more- now He works by the mighty minds and mouths of men.
I long for the good ol days meself HeHe :shakepoint:
And another Amen brother!
I appreciate your commitment to the literal applications of the scriptures, Molly, even when I disagree with your interpretation of them :o)
Then the Lord God said to the serpent: Because you have done this, you are cursed more than any livestock and more than any wild animal. You will move on your belly and eat dust all the days of your life.
You will eat bread by the sweat of your brow until you return to the ground, since you were taken from it. For you are dust, and you will return to dust."
The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but the serpent's food will be dust! They will not do what is evil or destroy on My entire holy mountain," says the Lord.
You return mankind to the dust, saying, "Return, descendants of Adam.
For in Your sight a thousand years are like yesterday that passes by,like a few hours of the night.
You end their lives; they sleep.They are like grass that grows in the morning—
in the morning it sprouts and grows;by evening it withers and dries up.
This happens concerning people, so that God may test them and they may see for themselves that they are like animals." 19 For the fate of people and the fate of animals is the same. As one dies, so dies the other; they all have the same breath. People have no advantage over animals since everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place; all come from dust, and all return to dust. 21 Who knows if the spirit of people rises upward and the spirit of animals goes downward to the earth? 22 I have seen that there is nothing better than for a person to enjoy his activities because that is his reward. For who can enable him to see what will happen after he dies?[f]
and the dust returns to the earth as it once was,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.