Whence this idea in my head that the lake of fire is the death of Christ?

[Samuel Cripps]

Some 15 years ago I came to believe that the lake of fire/second death is one and the same as the cross/death of Christ.  I came to this conclusion through meditating on the Scriptures.  Since then, and only rather recently, I have come across other souls who believe this exact same thing, and was delighted to find them.  I  posted here at Tentmaker about the year 2001, I think.

[Samuel Cripps]

See this thread:

http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/the-lake-of-fire-and-the-cross/

[eaglesway]

I don't know Samuel.... What do you mean by one and the same. It is written that the lake of fire is an experience reserved for those who have been found wanting(namely, of the blood of Jesus) before the great white throne.

I see it as immersion in the light of God's love, until evry hidden thing is brought to light. This is "kolassis" to the unbelieving/rebellious, until they yield (pay the last penny).  It is fire consuming darkness till all is filled with light.

The cross is the thing that exposes sin & self. The cross is what "rends of the veil" that brings in the light. It is the fountain from where the cleansing blood will flow until all be redeemed(col.1:16-21)- from this aspect I see the relationship between the sacrificial love of Jesus and the lake of fire.

Maybe you could clarify what you mean.

[reFORMer]

It is something some of us keep wondering about:  just what is the lake of fire?  This is more to consider.  It does seem the fire in Jesus is when He's alive.  When you're dead the fire's gone out.  I intend to keep thinking about it though.

[eaglesway]

These are just thoughts and meditations of mine, in short form:

When I think about fire as it relates to God, I think it is all the same fire- His being. The fire in Jesus eyes in Revelation, the eye is the light of the soul, filled up to all the fulness of God, our God is a consuming fire, etc.

I think that the fire kindles upon sin. It drives the sin from underneath the surface(every hidden thing will be brought to light), brings it up, and consumes it.

In a believer, the core of the New Creation is the heart of Jesus, impervious to fire, united to God in the spirit through reconciliation. But in the carnal believer, and in carnal churches, the fire is kindling and the "smoke of their torment rises" because the new life has not "filled up" the vessels. The "works are tested by fire for the Day shall reveal it". ...Both now, today, in the day/light/fire of trial and tribulation (the trying of your faith is more precious than gold tried in the fire) and in this day of testimony (it is necessary that their be heretics among you so that God can make manifest those who are approved).

For believers, with the "fire core", it burns for loss and reward; tho they may rebel, they are saved, "but as through fire"

When someone who has passed from this life in an unbelieving unrepentant state, goes before the judgment throne, the fire will kindle upon them........ "punished in the presence of the Lord and His holy angels".  There is not a lot of detail about THE EXPERIENCE. We can speculate all we want to, and disagree about shadows- but there is A LOT WRITTEN ABOUT THE NATURE OF THE FIRE and how it works.

IMO, the nature of the fire is this- LIGHT CONSUMING DARKNESS. Not like physical fire burning flesh, more like PRYING OPEN A TIGHTLY CLOSED LID.

Rebellion is bound up in the heart of man and also the hosts of wickedness. I know some think every being will just immediately fall in His presence on "the great day" but I am not so sure that is scriptural. Jesus Himself said things that lead me to believe the purging process will be a painful process for some in "that Day"- even as it can beup  now in this day("some mens sins go before them into judgment some mens sins follow after").

Also, we see, I think, from the scriptures that their are degrees of rebellion and unbelief that range from indifference and ignorance to knowingly committing abominable acts for the express purpose of affronting the Most High God.

Jesus taught degrees of kolassis (many stripes few stripes) and I think we do not realize how deeply rebellion runs in some of His creatures.

For instance,

And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal(aidos) bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal(aionios) fire.
(Jud 1:6-7)

Altho it may seem strange to us that creatures could be held captive for ages, we neither truly understand their nature or their relationship with time- We humans tend to judge everything FROM OUR POINT OF VIEW. But our point of view is clearly deficient  for lack of a frame of reference so we have to TAKE THE WORD OF GOD TO THE THRESHING FLOOR and winnow out the wheat from the chaff- our understanding being the grain, the Word of God being the rock, the mid-rash of the brethren being the winnowing fork, and the Holy SPirit being the UNQUENCHABLE FIRE THAT CONSUMES THE CHAFF.

:2c:

[ded2daworld]

WELL SAID, EW! :thumbsup:
and this fits in when ET'ers say, "So you think Hitler and Pol Pot and real christians are all going to be with Jesus in Heaven?"
It's not a quick easy answer - which is one of my faults in posting. I make solutions sound easier or less complicated than they really are.

[ded2daworld]

IMO, Jesus The man, the lamb, was the sacrificial death for our sins.
Jesus, the son of God, along with the Father, has life within himself and is incapable of dying.
The spirit of Jesus preached to those that had died before the flood of Noah.
At the resurrection, The body of Jesus was reunited with the spirit of Jesus.
There is no death of Christ's spirit. Christ (the man)doesn't die a second time.
This is either a huge spiritualizing of what actually happened or, as sometimes happens,
a thought is planted by someone other than God and the thought is a lie.
I guess I'm a "plainest" -  The plainest reading of scripture is most likely what is meant
and there is no need to find another meaning - especially if it detracts or confuses from the original meaning. :Peace2:

[Speusippus]

How could the second death possibly be the death of Christ?

Not that Christ dies again, but that it's the very same thing as Christ's death on the cross.

The idea would be that believers dying with Christ is believers having their own "lake of fire experience," while those who don't believe will also die with Christ, and that will be their "lake of fire experience."

Now I'm Confused :doh:

It means just what you thought I meant when you said: "I thought he was saying the death of Christ- His sacrifice, is the substance of the fire."

Yes, that's my meaning exactly.

[Speusippus]

See this thread:

http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/the-lake-of-fire-and-the-cross/

Thanks for the link. Yes, what you and some others wrote in that thread is exactly what I was thinking.

[eaglesway]

How could the second death possibly be the death of Christ?

Not that Christ dies again, but that it's the very same thing as Christ's death on the cross.

The idea would be that believers dying with Christ is believers having their own "lake of fire experience," while those who don't believe will also die with Christ, and that will be their "lake of fire experience."

Now I'm Confused :doh:

It means just what you thought I meant when you said: "I thought he was saying the death of Christ- His sacrifice, is the substance of the fire."

Yes, that's my meaning exactly.

Ok cool, I get that- it is the defining act of all God's creation, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. His layig down of His life is the standard by which every act will be discerned as to whether it is wood, hay or stubble- gold, silver or precious stones. That is where the possible relationship to the lake of fire exists-

Isa 33:14  The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
(Eze 28:14)

The fire is only fearful to those who have not been washed in the blood of the Lamb