Hi all,
It's been about ten years since I used to frequent tentmaker and related fora. (I got my start on Matt Slick's board. ;) ) My name back then was Kris Rhodes, I think. Probably no one remembers me--if anyone from back then is even still here!
Anyway I'm posting because I was trying to remember where I got this idea I have in my head that the lake of fire IS the death of Christ. Is that something any of you have heard before? Or was it my own idiosyncratic conception? I know I thought it was true (or thought it may well be true) ten years ago, but I don't remember if it was my own idea or someone else's.
Anyway, is this something that someone here has heard before and knows where it came from?
Thanks!
Hey there. I've only been here since '08, but I've never heard that before.
Actually, tho I never heard of it, i makes sense because.....
Joh 3:19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
"Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.
(Joh 12:31-33)
Since everyone is judged by the Lamb, the laying down of His life in a "free will offering" is the one act by which every act is judged.
Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
(1Co 3:12-15)
"His eyes are as flames of fire"(rev) and "all things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do"(Hebrews)
All this is because He willingly layed down His life. This is why He is the plumbline
since we have all come out of the church systems..He has been sitting as a purifier and refiner....
many of our old 'sacred cows' and 'lying doctrines/hay stubble' have already been burned up...
He will sit and continue to refine us.....
I remember when I come out..of religious Babylon...I thought all that I did..I did for nothing!! all that was
just hay and stubble!! I felt like the biggest spiritual flop! I thought..How am I going to face Him? All
that for a big lie of men!!!
IMO, the lake of fire is the death of death and hell.
Hehehe spiritual flops galore around here Sheila! :mblush:
:laugh:
One of the good things about having never done much of anything to better humanity or glorify God is that if anything significant like that occurs through you're life you know it is NOT you that did it.
Very true reF! He put quite a few "difficult" people in my path at one time. Told me to love them. I tried and failed miserably. Finally I threw my hands up, sank down on the couch and just cried and cried. I said Lord, I can't love this person. He said, stop feeling like a failure. Nobody can love _________ without Me.
Well that was a lightbulb moment if I ever had one LOL! So I started praying, Lord, if you want me to love this person You're going to have to do it! And I started realizing that I've been "turning the other cheek" rather than talking back. When I noticed it I was shocked. And I KNEW it was all Him because on my own that was something I never could do, no matter how hard I tried!
So I guess spiritual floppage is a good part of the process. :)
John the Baptizer had an advantage in that the Holy Spirit was in him from the time he was in the womb.
Other than John, I can't think of anyone "great" that didn't emerge from failures and setbacks. You're in good company lomarah. :thumbsup:
Hehe true!!
Praise God for His grace in drawing us through the muck and mire of man's concepts and our own confusion into the true knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ!
the thought occurred to me regarding the works being burnt up yet saved as through fire..and how many
would come say 'Lord,Lord..I did this and that in your name" and Him saying 'get away from me,ye workers
of lawlessness" and how it is the works that are burnt up..thus no reward..but saved through thefire/ free gift.
no boasting etc in any 'works' before Him[of the workers of lawlessness=pride/boast] and then
I remember Paul speaking about clanging symbols[blowing trumpets?] because the absence of genuine
LOVE OF LORD & MANKIND WAS NOT THERE.......and how..this LOVE MOTIVATION IS THE TOUCHSTONE
THAT HE APPEARS TO MEASURE THE VERACITY OF ANY WORK..and also this...love is as strong as
death, Love being the true essence of the spirit of God..and those that love are born of God..and those
that walk in Love sin not against the Holy spirit but fulfill the LAW[those that don't apparently are the lawless]
Love never fails...just as HIS SPIRIT THAT HE SENDS FORTH DOESN'T RETURN VOID.
What the world needs now..is Love sweet Love..no not just for some, but for everyone......
That's the only thing that shines in the fire :o)
Mountain of Love....[ I can't help seeing this as Jesus speaking to the fallen church]
mountain of love,mountain of love,you should be ashamed, you used to be a mountain of love
but you just changed your name. Way down below there's a half a million people
somewhere there's a church with a big tall steeple. Inside the church there's an altar filled with flowers
wedding bells a ringing that should of been ours
that's why I'm so lonely, I dream from above, High on a Mountain of love.
How could the second death possibly be the death of Christ?
I'm with Brad on this one.
IMO, the second death has always been in reference to the believer.
Christ died "once for all" and was raised up to "live forevermore" so there is no scriptural support (that I can see) for a second death for Christ - unless this is one of those way out, esoteric, multiple meaning, extraspiritual things the average believer cannot understand. :Peace2:
Quote from: Brad on January 08, 2013, 10:52:26 PM
How could the second death possibly be the death of Christ?
Not that Christ dies again, but that it's the very same thing as Christ's death on the cross.
The idea would be that believers dying with Christ is believers having their own "lake of fire experience," while those who don't believe will also die with Christ, and that will be their "lake of fire experience."
I don't believe he was saying a second death for Christ.
I thought he was saying the death of Christ- His sacrifice, is the substance of the fire.
Perhaps there should be some clarification.
Quote from: sheila on January 08, 2013, 09:18:33 PM
Mountain of Love....[ I can't help seeing this as Jesus speaking to the fallen church]
mountain of love,mountain of love,you should be ashamed, you used to be a mountain of love
but you just changed your name. Way down below there's a half a million people
somewhere there's a church with a big tall steeple. Inside the church there's an altar filled with flowers
wedding bells a ringing that should of been ours
that's why I'm so lonely, I dream from above, High on a Mountain of love.
Wow! What is that from? Is it a song?
Mountain of Love
http://youtu.be/F5R-_ZUf0wY (http://youtu.be/F5R-_ZUf0wY)
yeah Lomarah..I remember hearing it back in the "60"s....performed by different artists...
you know,in regard to Christ's death...He tasted death for every man[believers and unbelievers both,
I suspect]
thanks..Ew.... :friendstu:
Quote from: Speusippus on January 09, 2013, 01:11:54 AM
Quote from: Brad on January 08, 2013, 10:52:26 PM
How could the second death possibly be the death of Christ?
Not that Christ dies again, but that it's the very same thing as Christ's death on the cross.
The idea would be that believers dying with Christ is believers having their own "lake of fire experience," while those who don't believe will also die with Christ, and that will be their "lake of fire experience."
Now I'm Confused :doh:
Some 15 years ago I came to believe that the lake of fire/second death is one and the same as the cross/death of Christ. I came to this conclusion through meditating on the Scriptures. Since then, and only rather recently, I have come across other souls who believe this exact same thing, and was delighted to find them. I posted here at Tentmaker about the year 2001, I think.
See this thread:
http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/the-lake-of-fire-and-the-cross/
I don't know Samuel.... What do you mean by one and the same. It is written that the lake of fire is an experience reserved for those who have been found wanting(namely, of the blood of Jesus) before the great white throne.
I see it as immersion in the light of God's love, until evry hidden thing is brought to light. This is "kolassis" to the unbelieving/rebellious, until they yield (pay the last penny). It is fire consuming darkness till all is filled with light.
The cross is the thing that exposes sin & self. The cross is what "rends of the veil" that brings in the light. It is the fountain from where the cleansing blood will flow until all be redeemed(col.1:16-21)- from this aspect I see the relationship between the sacrificial love of Jesus and the lake of fire.
Maybe you could clarify what you mean.
It is something some of us keep wondering about: just what is the lake of fire? This is more to consider. It does seem the fire in Jesus is when He's alive. When you're dead the fire's gone out. I intend to keep thinking about it though.
These are just thoughts and meditations of mine, in short form:
When I think about fire as it relates to God, I think it is all the same fire- His being. The fire in Jesus eyes in Revelation, the eye is the light of the soul, filled up to all the fulness of God, our God is a consuming fire, etc.
I think that the fire kindles upon sin. It drives the sin from underneath the surface(every hidden thing will be brought to light), brings it up, and consumes it.
In a believer, the core of the New Creation is the heart of Jesus, impervious to fire, united to God in the spirit through reconciliation. But in the carnal believer, and in carnal churches, the fire is kindling and the "smoke of their torment rises" because the new life has not "filled up" the vessels. The "works are tested by fire for the Day shall reveal it". ...Both now, today, in the day/light/fire of trial and tribulation (the trying of your faith is more precious than gold tried in the fire) and in this day of testimony (it is necessary that their be heretics among you so that God can make manifest those who are approved).
For believers, with the "fire core", it burns for loss and reward; tho they may rebel, they are saved, "but as through fire"
When someone who has passed from this life in an unbelieving unrepentant state, goes before the judgment throne, the fire will kindle upon them........ "punished in the presence of the Lord and His holy angels". There is not a lot of detail about THE EXPERIENCE. We can speculate all we want to, and disagree about shadows- but there is A LOT WRITTEN ABOUT THE NATURE OF THE FIRE and how it works.
IMO, the nature of the fire is this- LIGHT CONSUMING DARKNESS. Not like physical fire burning flesh, more like PRYING OPEN A TIGHTLY CLOSED LID.
Rebellion is bound up in the heart of man and also the hosts of wickedness. I know some think every being will just immediately fall in His presence on "the great day" but I am not so sure that is scriptural. Jesus Himself said things that lead me to believe the purging process will be a painful process for some in "that Day"- even as it can beup now in this day("some mens sins go before them into judgment some mens sins follow after").
Also, we see, I think, from the scriptures that their are degrees of rebellion and unbelief that range from indifference and ignorance to knowingly committing abominable acts for the express purpose of affronting the Most High God.
Jesus taught degrees of kolassis (many stripes few stripes) and I think we do not realize how deeply rebellion runs in some of His creatures.
For instance,
And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal(aidos) bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal(aionios) fire.
(Jud 1:6-7)
Altho it may seem strange to us that creatures could be held captive for ages, we neither truly understand their nature or their relationship with time- We humans tend to judge everything FROM OUR POINT OF VIEW. But our point of view is clearly deficient for lack of a frame of reference so we have to TAKE THE WORD OF GOD TO THE THRESHING FLOOR and winnow out the wheat from the chaff- our understanding being the grain, the Word of God being the rock, the mid-rash of the brethren being the winnowing fork, and the Holy SPirit being the UNQUENCHABLE FIRE THAT CONSUMES THE CHAFF.
:2c:
WELL SAID, EW! :thumbsup:
and this fits in when ET'ers say, "So you think Hitler and Pol Pot and real christians are all going to be with Jesus in Heaven?"
It's not a quick easy answer - which is one of my faults in posting. I make solutions sound easier or less complicated than they really are.
IMO, Jesus The man, the lamb, was the sacrificial death for our sins.
Jesus, the son of God, along with the Father, has life within himself and is incapable of dying.
The spirit of Jesus preached to those that had died before the flood of Noah.
At the resurrection, The body of Jesus was reunited with the spirit of Jesus.
There is no death of Christ's spirit. Christ (the man)doesn't die a second time.
This is either a huge spiritualizing of what actually happened or, as sometimes happens,
a thought is planted by someone other than God and the thought is a lie.
I guess I'm a "plainest" - The plainest reading of scripture is most likely what is meant
and there is no need to find another meaning - especially if it detracts or confuses from the original meaning. :Peace2:
Quote from: eaglesway on January 09, 2013, 01:47:31 AM
Quote from: Speusippus on January 09, 2013, 01:11:54 AM
Quote from: Brad on January 08, 2013, 10:52:26 PM
How could the second death possibly be the death of Christ?
Not that Christ dies again, but that it's the very same thing as Christ's death on the cross.
The idea would be that believers dying with Christ is believers having their own "lake of fire experience," while those who don't believe will also die with Christ, and that will be their "lake of fire experience."
Now I'm Confused :doh:
It means just what you thought I meant when you said: "I thought he was saying the death of Christ- His sacrifice, is the substance of the fire."
Yes, that's my meaning exactly.
Quote from: Samuel Cripps on January 09, 2013, 05:43:56 AM
See this thread:
http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/the-lake-of-fire-and-the-cross/
Thanks for the link. Yes, what you and some others wrote in that thread is exactly what I was thinking.
Quote from: Speusippus on January 09, 2013, 07:30:49 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on January 09, 2013, 01:47:31 AM
Quote from: Speusippus on January 09, 2013, 01:11:54 AM
Quote from: Brad on January 08, 2013, 10:52:26 PM
How could the second death possibly be the death of Christ?
Not that Christ dies again, but that it's the very same thing as Christ's death on the cross.
The idea would be that believers dying with Christ is believers having their own "lake of fire experience," while those who don't believe will also die with Christ, and that will be their "lake of fire experience."
Now I'm Confused :doh:
It means just what you thought I meant when you said: "I thought he was saying the death of Christ- His sacrifice, is the substance of the fire."
Yes, that's my meaning exactly.
Ok cool, I get that- it is the defining act of all God's creation, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. His layig down of His life is the standard by which every act will be discerned as to whether it is wood, hay or stubble- gold, silver or precious stones. That is where the possible relationship to the lake of fire exists-
Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
(Eze 28:14)
The fire is only fearful to those who have not been washed in the blood of the Lamb