Isa. 14 and Ezk. 28

[micah7:9]

I have read and it has been discussed here, that both the chapters Isa. 14 and Ezk. 28, refer to satan/adversary, but other that speculation, interpretation and assumption, are there any  Bible verses of scripture that back this thought up? Some use Luke 10:18 and Rev. 12:7 as a proving, i do not really understand that, for me that thinking is birthed by accepting Isa. and Ezk.as  satan has no proof, outside of what religion and theology says. Is there evidence in the Bible?
It would seem that blowing off or uncovering the myth of hell is to be congradulated, but still the myth, in my opinion, of lucifer needs a looking into.
The idea of satan being a beautiful angel, cherub, who usurped God in the very beginning would "seem" to be an event of great importance and should have or would have been revealed in the very beginning imo.
And just as the stories and fables that you all to well know, are all built on the ET doctrine of eternal torment in a mythical hell. How does this one Latin word, used only once in the entire Bible get such mighty
billing?
Jesus said..Joh 8:44  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning,.... here we have the devil's beginning
This is proved, imo, in Gen. 3. as the serpent.
The dictionary I own has lucifer defined by.... Christian theology and why not?
lucifer, a Latin word meaning  "light bearer"( a match used to be called a lucifer) in some translations is "howl" (Lamsa) and CLT 12 How have you fallen from the heavens! Howl, son of the dawn! And it is beyond me how satan/adversary which in all my readings is darkness and can be somthing to do with light; now 2Co 11:14  and no wonder--for even the Adversary doth transform himself into a messenger of light; 
but there is no evidence  that the adversary used this disguise in the beginning other than stories, which say satan was this great and beautiful angel. It really makes no matter to me, in Isa.14 the word is to the King of Babylon(at the time) and Ezk. refers to the prince of Tyrus. And to see satan as a light bearer, I don't get it. There are some who speculate that those two chapters speak of Adam.  I am stayed and settled in a learning place and I am willing and open for correction. 

[ded2daworld]

I agree with you Micah. The texts are not clear and some assumptions have to be made to arrive at conclusions.
I think the bible makes it clear that Satan/devil/lucifer (whatever you want to call him) was one of the archangels only for reasons of him being able to get 1/3 of the angels to join in his rebellion.
There is also mention of this character in the book of Job and is shown to have as much power as God allows, which it seems he allows a lot. I don't believe he can read minds or knows the future other than by deduction which we all are capable of to some degree. :2c:

[micah7:9]

I agree with you Micah. The texts are not clear and some assumptions have to be made to arrive at conclusions.
I think the bible makes it clear that Satan/devil/lucifer (whatever you want to call him) was one of the archangels only for reasons of him being able to get 1/3 of the angels to join in his rebellion.
There is also mention of this character in the book of Job and is shown to have as much power as God allows, which it seems he allows a lot. I don't believe he can read minds or knows the future other than by deduction which we all are capable of to some degree. :2c:

Now D, this is what I don't find Bible evidence of, "I think the bible makes it clear that Satan/devil/lucifer (whatever you want to call him) was one of the archangels only for reasons of him being able to get 1/3 of the angels to join in his rebellion." First you say, "I agree with you Micah. The texts are not clear and some assumptions have to be made to arrive at conclusions. "
That does not seem clear to me? An archangel when? Besides, right now my quest subject is "lucifer."
That word lucifer is absent from the line up in..Rev 12:9  and the great dragon was cast forth--the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,'......
And if there was a rebellion of such, in the beginning, why nothing until Rev?
For me anyway the Revelation of Jesus Christ is 90% spiritual and is being waged as the believer and overcomer grows up in Christ. But that is a different subject.

[ded2daworld]

You're right agin. I wasn't paying careful attention and made some assumptions of my own :doh:

[sheila]

  well remembering the evil adversary is an evil contrast spirit...and that this spirit will permeate the creation

  will help us,  In heaven when this spirit accused man day and night and misled angels..named the dragon

  for adversary of the woman bearing the manchild.

   when in the garment and clothed as a serpent to mislead Adam and Eve..the original serpent....

  when  manifested as a government on earth..a beast..when Babylon rides her..false-religion riding

upon a beastly government.. when this adversary gives false visions and wrongly says'it is written'

he is a false-prophet. When he calls evil good and good evil..and puts forth darkness for light he is Lucifer

when he takes and possesses man's body..he is known as the man of sin/man of lawlessness/son

of perdition that goes into cutting off/lof..

   he is manifested as all the above...Just as God's faithful angels are heavenly host..the Government of the Lamb

  a lamp in the darkness..a son of God....a woman bearing the manchild..the spirit of truth

[micah7:9]

"When he calls evil good and good evil..and puts forth darkness for light he is Lucifer..." Sheila

American Heritage College Dictionary, Lucifer n. 1. The archangel cast from heaven for leading the revolt of the angels; Satan. < OE, morning star, Lucifer < Latin Lucifer < lucifer, light-bringer: lux, luc-, light" (page 821).

The very next word under "Lucifer" is, luciferase n. An enzyme that catalyzes the oxidation of luciferin." Hmmmmm. What have we here? "Lucifer + in."

And the word that follows "luciferase" in this same dictionary is: " luciferin n. A chemical substance present in the cells of bioluminescent organisms, such as fireflies that produce a bluish-green light when oxidized. [Latin Lucifer, light-bringing; see LUCIFER + -IN.]" (page. 821).

There it is! Lucifer is the 'chemical bioluminescence' in the cells of FIREFLIES!

[sheila]

.....otherwise known as Beezelbub..Lord of the Flies

[micah7:9]

I know that I should be convinced now.

[sheila]

 :laugh: :iagree:..amen, well said.  lol!

[micah7:9]

But is that the best you have? I offered the meaning of the word lucifer and you offered Beezelbub, because flies and fire go together? Seriously, Sheila the lore of what religion and theology has presented as hell and eternal torment is faulty, and proven so by the Word. All I'm asking for is that the Word itself prove this lucifer story. How did the prince of Tyrus and the King of Babylon become lucifer, as least in Isa. for there is no lucifer in Ezk.? Is there any scripture? Not what is imagined by men as to what the chapters mean. When was the adversary a cherub?

[sheila]

ok..seriously...a cherub represents a governmental authority. there are two cherubs with their wings

over the ark of the covenant.with the mercy seat above it..so it represents dominion/kingship.

  God give dominion to Adam over the earth..............til iniquity/sin was found in you...is the same

as an abomination on the wing[spirit] of the temple......Man's body is God's temple for His holy

spirit to dwell.

  due to this being an exercize in good/evil..evil entered...an evil spirTi  on wing.........so when satan enters man

who was given dominion[like King of Tyre etc] and rules not in accordance with God..but as a representative

of an evil spiri[USURPS DOMINION]t...he is called lucifer...man rules man to his ruin

another example in which the cherub that coverth[lucifer] is seen..is iSAAIH 25;7 oN THIS MOUNTAIN

HE WILL DESTROY THE SHROUD THAT ENFOLDS ALL PEOPLE, THE SHEET THAT COVERS ALL NATIONS

HE WILL SWALLOW UP DEATH FOREVER .[SIN ENTERED THEREFORE DEATH COME TO ALL MEN]


nOW jESUS cHRIST COME...hEIR AND GIVEN kINGDOM POWER AND AUTHORITY OVE HEAVEN AND EARTH

  AND 'COVERED' US WITH HIS ATONING SACRIFICE[FOR MAN WITH SIN IN HIM..CAN NOT 'COVER'

ANYTHING.    iF THE LIGHT THAT BE IN YOU[LUCIFER] BE DARKNESS[AN EVIL SPIRIT] HOW GREAT

  IS THAT DARKNESS

    mATTHEW 7;22    THE THE EYE IS THE LAMP OF THE BODY....IF YOUR EYES ARE GOOD,YOUR WHOLE

BODY WILL BE FULL OF LIGHT. BUT IF YOUR EYES ARE BAD,YOUR WHOLE BODY WILL BE FULL

OF DARKNESS..     THESE ARE SPIRITUAL EYES....GOOD/BAD SPIRITS THAT LEAD MEN IN

UNDERSTANDING AND MISUNDERSTANDING.

[Molly]

This is talking about Satan as the indwelt man called the Antichrist and Satan as the god of this world.   That's my opinion.

It lines up with the vision of Daniel 2, of a terrible man with the head of gold [Babylon].   This is the man with the mind of Satan, also known as Lucifer.  The time period is the end of the age after Lucifer [in the body of the Antichrist] has been thrown into the pit for 1000 years.





3 In that wonderful day when the Lord gives his people rest from sorrow and fear, from slavery and chains, 4 you will taunt the king of Babylon. You will say,


"The mighty man has been destroyed.
    Yes, your insolence is ended.
5 For the Lord has crushed your wicked power
    and broken your evil rule.
6 You struck the people with endless blows of rage
    and held the nations in your angry grip
    with unrelenting tyranny.
7 But finally the earth is at rest and quiet.
    Now it can sing again!
8 Even the trees of the forest—
    the cypress trees and the cedars of Lebanon—
    sing out this joyous song:
'Since you have been cut down,
    no one will come now to cut us down!'


9 "In the place of the dead there is excitement
    over your arrival.
The spirits of world leaders and mighty kings long dead
    stand up to see you.
10 With one voice they all cry out,
    'Now you are as weak as we are!
11 Your might and power were buried with you.
    The sound of the harp in your palace has ceased.
Now maggots are your sheet,
    and worms your blanket.'


12 "How you are fallen from heaven,
    O shining star, son of the morning!
You have been thrown down to the earth,
    you who destroyed the nations of the world.
13 For you said to yourself,
    'I will ascend to heaven and set my throne above God's stars.
I will preside on the mountain of the gods
    far away in the north.
14 I will climb to the highest heavens
    and be like the Most High.'
15 Instead, you will be brought down to the place of the dead,
    down to its lowest depths.
16 Everyone there will stare at you and ask,
'Can this be the one who shook the earth
    and made the kingdoms of the world tremble?
17 Is this the one who destroyed the world
    and made it into a wasteland?
Is this the king who demolished the world's greatest cities
    and had no mercy on his prisoners?'


18 "The kings of the nations lie in stately glory,
    each in his own tomb,
19 but you will be thrown out of your grave
    like a worthless branch.
Like a corpse trampled underfoot,
    you will be dumped into a mass grave
    with those killed in battle.
You will descend to the pit.
20     You will not be given a proper burial,
for you have destroyed your nation
    and slaughtered your people.
The descendants of such an evil person
    will never again receive honor.
21 Kill this man's children!
    Let them die because of their father's sins!
They must not rise and conquer the earth,
    filling the world with their cities."


22 This is what the Lord of Heaven's Armies says:
    "I, myself, have risen against Babylon!
I will destroy its children and its children's children,"
    says the Lord.
23 "I will make Babylon a desolate place of owls,
    filled with swamps and marshes.
I will sweep the land with the broom of destruction.
    I, the Lord of Heaven's Armies, have spoken!"

--Isa 14

[gregoryfl]

Something that has helped me come to the understanding I currently have has been to consider the entire section of those prophetic writings as a whole, which starts in chapter 25 and ends in chapter 32. In particular, when I see the thematic connections (related phrases or words) which is how the ancient rabbis studied the scriptures, as found beginning in chapter 26 through 28, I see the phrases under discussion being used to describe the actual ruler and prince of Tyre.

Here are some examples of thematic connections being made:

Eze 26:21...27:36...28:19.

Eze 27:3...27:11...28:12

[eaglesway]

This is talking about Satan as the indwelt man called the Antichrist and Satan as the god of this world.   That's my opinion.

It lines up with the vision of Daniel 2, of a terrible man with the head of gold [Babylon].   This is the man with the mind of Satan, also known as Lucifer.  The time period is the end of the age after Lucifer [in the body of the Antichrist] has been thrown into the pit for 1000 years.


3 In that wonderful day when the Lord gives his people rest from sorrow and fear, from slavery and chains, 4 you will taunt the king of Babylon. You will say,


"The mighty man has been destroyed.
    Yes, your insolence is ended.
5 For the Lord has crushed your wicked power
    and broken your evil rule.
6 You struck the people with endless blows of rage
    and held the nations in your angry grip
    with unrelenting tyranny.
7 But finally the earth is at rest and quiet.
    Now it can sing again!
8 Even the trees of the forest—
    the cypress trees and the cedars of Lebanon—
    sing out this joyous song:
'Since you have been cut down,
    no one will come now to cut us down!'


9 "In the place of the dead there is excitement
    over your arrival.
The spirits of world leaders and mighty kings long dead
    stand up to see you.
10 With one voice they all cry out,
    'Now you are as weak as we are!
11 Your might and power were buried with you.
    The sound of the harp in your palace has ceased.
Now maggots are your sheet,
    and worms your blanket.'


12 "How you are fallen from heaven,
    O shining star, son of the morning!
You have been thrown down to the earth,
    you who destroyed the nations of the world.
13 For you said to yourself,
    'I will ascend to heaven and set my throne above God's stars.
I will preside on the mountain of the gods
    far away in the north.
14 I will climb to the highest heavens
    and be like the Most High.'
15 Instead, you will be brought down to the place of the dead,
    down to its lowest depths.
16 Everyone there will stare at you and ask,
'Can this be the one who shook the earth
    and made the kingdoms of the world tremble?
17 Is this the one who destroyed the world
    and made it into a wasteland?
Is this the king who demolished the world's greatest cities
    and had no mercy on his prisoners?'


18 "The kings of the nations lie in stately glory,
    each in his own tomb,
19 but you will be thrown out of your grave
    like a worthless branch.
Like a corpse trampled underfoot,
    you will be dumped into a mass grave
    with those killed in battle.
You will descend to the pit.
20     You will not be given a proper burial,
for you have destroyed your nation
    and slaughtered your people.
The descendants of such an evil person
    will never again receive honor.
21 Kill this man's children!
    Let them die because of their father's sins!
They must not rise and conquer the earth,
    filling the world with their cities."


22 This is what the Lord of Heaven's Armies says:
    "I, myself, have risen against Babylon!
I will destroy its children and its children's children,"
    says the Lord.
23 "I will make Babylon a desolate place of owls,
    filled with swamps and marshes.
I will sweep the land with the broom of destruction.
    I, the Lord of Heaven's Armies, have spoken!"

--Isa 14

The head of gold represents a pure monarchy. The chest and arms of silver represent the dual rulership of the Medes and the Persians, the belly and thighs of bronze the Greeks of Philip and Alexander, the feet of iron and clay was the Roman Empire, smashed by the little stone of the Kingdom of God. Since the little stone smashed the statue, the mountain of the Lord has been growing in exaltation and wil be the footstool of the Lord, the heights of Jerusalem His dwelling place, from whence He will rule the nations with a rod of iron so that the lion and the Lamb may lay down together.

"In the last days the mountain of the Lord wll be exalted above all the other mountains..."

The freedom of Jubilee is coming to earth, in the form of the City of God- a reign of justice, equity, prosperity and community.

"And the Lord will reign from Zion and justice will be His footstool".

We can argue over the details, but nevertheless, let us rejoice.

"When you see these things begin to happen rejoice, for your redemption draws nigh".

[Lazarus Short]

Most of the Bible is devoted to God and His beloved, Israel.  Lucifer/Satan/Devil gets only a brief mention from time to time, and most of what is presented to us as evidence has been scraped together and twisted into evidence.  Compared to Jesus, Satan gets the very short end of it, and that's the way it should be.  Satan is just a blip, a speed bump on the way to the Kingdom.

[micah7:9]

The adversary is/was the most important and intricate player in the whole entire process of His creation, besides Jesus Christ. :dsunny:

I do not lift the adversary up as in a victory, I do not admire the position, but without that force, that opposite energy of anti good, man would not, nor could man win any victory. Jesus gave/used His blood to vanquish the adversary, and i, at least have not resisted to blood. Heb 12:4  Not yet unto blood did ye resist--with the sin striving;

I give the enemy no more credit than, the job.

[eaglesway]

The adversary is/was the most important and intricate player in the whole entire process of His creation, besides Jesus Christ. :dsunny:

That's an overinflated opinion of the adversary in my opinion :o)

[micah7:9]

Well what do you fight against? And why do you fight against it? For what purpose do you fight against? Just what do you fight against for? Why fight? For what reason? :):( :dsunny:

The old sepent, the devil, the dragon was created for one purpose and one purpose only...to cause man to descern good from evil. Evil was created by the Lord, to educate the man He created.
But religion along with the imagination of man, created the opposition to good, to be an enity with a proper name and with a prounonced identity with braging rights. The adversary is a fearsome
force, that must be reckoned with, and that enemy will use all the animations of man, infecting man's imagination, to deny Jehovah God. Religion gives the adversary proper names like satan, lucifer
gives the enemy,  the opponent prominence undeserved, i will not. The adversary is a foe defeated, defeated by the Savior of the World, Jesus Christ, now, i... through the faith of Jesus Christ, will come to
know this victory under the blood. i will not give the adversary more notice than rebuke.

[eaglesway]

"i will not give the adversary more notice than rebuke."


I agree with that statement.

[eaglesway]

How I think God "created evil".

"Well, first off, He created them like Himself. So he gave them a free will. He gave them power. He gave them creative intelligence. He gave them the authority to create and to destroy. The right to obey or refuse. And He saw that they would fall, but He planted "eternity in their hearts" so they would always hunger for love. How could they know love unless they experienced hate. How could they fully appreciate the glory of the gift of life unless they could experience the terror of death.  He set it all in motion knowing the outcome, forseeing the outworking of every possible equation. He knew each one from their formation through to their completion. He new the good and the ill and He knew that His power- His love- His light- His truth-would relentlessly draw them all back home to the Makers Heart."

http://www.hellisamyth.com/themakersheart.htm

[reFORMer]

Never in scripture does it say, "Lucifer became Satan," or, "Satan was Lucifer."  Lucifer is not used in modern translations.

The English (of the King James Version) has "Lucifer" which is from Latin, Luciferon.

The Hebrew (Stong's H1966) is soometimes rendered hilil, transliterated heylel and pronounced hā·lāl', based on a word that means to "shine" brightly.

The Greek is Phosphoros. (Stong's G5459)
1) light bringing, giving light
2) the planet Venus, the morning star, day star
3) metaph. Christ
Phosphorus in this passage is translated "day star," for Christ:  "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts..." (2 Pt 1¹⁹)  What can be meant, since we aren't looking for Satan to arise in our hearts? at least I hope that's not what we're looking for...and I hope nobody's looking for what they can use to make a new religious cult.

It seems "the light bearer" is the human race.  The Light was carried by and born as a human being, a child of Adam.  We are being made in His form and similatude.  We were who reached out to be like God in a way He had forbidden for which we were cast out.  Some have said "the Shining One" was contextually referring to the high Priest of Israel to whom Babylon was looking for light at that time.

Without scripture ever saying so, the idea of 1/3 of the angels has been tied into the passage in Revelation that says:  "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born." (Rv 12^3-4, KJV)  Nothing here about the stars being angels.  In the beginning of Genesis the stars are said to be for signs.  The first thing they are used to signify is in Joseph's dream of the sun and moon and 11 stars bowing to his star.  The stars then are sons of God from humankind.

Much more can and has been said.  The basic truth was presented in the original post.  The writer(s) of Hebrews said, "Time fails me to tell..."

[micah7:9]

How I think God "created evil".

"Well, first off, He created them like Himself. So he gave them a free will. He gave them power. He gave them creative intelligence. He gave them the authority to create and to destroy. The right to obey or refuse. And He saw that they would fall, but He planted "eternity in their hearts" so they would always hunger for love. How could they know love unless they experienced hate. How could they fully appreciate the glory of the gift of life unless they could experience the terror of death.  He set it all in motion knowing the outcome, forseeing the outworking of every possible equation. He knew each one from their formation through to their completion. He new the good and the ill and He knew that His power- His love- His light- His truth-would relentlessly draw them all back home to the Makers Heart."

http://www.hellisamyth.com/themakersheart.htm

I, me and my opinion, agree with all of the above but this one part of the statement, "So he gave them a free will." I, me in my opinion, is a s---y assumption.  For the adversary to have "free will" would be admitting a will that would/could usurp the very will of the CREATOR. i cannot nor will i give give leave to such a thought. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

[ded2daworld]

I'm with Micah on this one. If we are not 100% free to override the will of God then we aren't really free - thank GOD!!

[redhotmagma]

Reformer I agree with you.  I think he represents the high priest as all his coverings are the coverings of the high priest (the covering cherub).  And Adam was the priest in the garden, aka the HOH.

Here is a post that we discussed this a couple years ago.

http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/luciferadam/

And an associated one

http://tentmaker.org/forum/book-of-revelation/carnal-nature-and-mark-of-the-beast/msg128913/#msg128913

[eaglesway]

How I think God "created evil".

"Well, first off, He created them like Himself. So he gave them a free will. He gave them power. He gave them creative intelligence. He gave them the authority to create and to destroy. The right to obey or refuse. And He saw that they would fall, but He planted "eternity in their hearts" so they would always hunger for love. How could they know love unless they experienced hate. How could they fully appreciate the glory of the gift of life unless they could experience the terror of death.  He set it all in motion knowing the outcome, forseeing the outworking of every possible equation. He knew each one from their formation through to their completion. He new the good and the ill and He knew that His power- His love- His light- His truth-would relentlessly draw them all back home to the Makers Heart."

http://www.hellisamyth.com/themakersheart.htm

  For the adversary to have "free will" would be admitting a will that would/could usurp the very will of the CREATOR. i cannot nor will i give give leave to such a thought. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

I could give no leave to such a thought either, but it is not the logical conclusion to my meaning.

By free will, I do not mean sovereign over God, obvioulsy, regardless of whether my view on the will of man and angels is correct or not, no being can usurp the will of God. I look at it like this. "Who causes all things to work according to the counsel of His will".

If God builds a fence, and places His creatures within it, and says-"You are free to do as you will in there".......That would be more like how I see it. It is a really large fence around a very expansive territory, but it is not infinite or universally sovereign. In addition, God, who has a distinct purpose, and is fully aware and confident in the immense beauty of sacrificial love, never had a doubt as to the eventual conclusion. "By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God"......."The light shines in the darkness and the darkness cannot overcome it"...."And God who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ."....." In the beginning the earth was without form and void and the spirit hovered over the waters, and God said...."

God speaks into chaos(our freedom as yet unsubjected to His love). Order, beauty and harmony(light- as our souls begin to flow into the anakephalaomai) emerge as the spirit moves upon the waters(our spirit. soul, heart, mind)- drawing us to Jesus, the image of the invisible God.

I say these things not to persuade so much as to explain what I see, and why I agree that no one may supercede the will of God, beyond what he allows within the aion and kosmos.