I have read and it has been discussed here, that both the chapters Isa. 14 and Ezk. 28, refer to satan/adversary, but other that speculation, interpretation and assumption, are there any Bible verses of scripture that back this thought up? Some use Luke 10:18 and Rev. 12:7 as a proving, i do not really understand that, for me that thinking is birthed by accepting Isa. and Ezk.as satan has no proof, outside of what religion and theology says. Is there evidence in the Bible?
It would seem that blowing off or uncovering the myth of hell is to be congradulated, but still the myth, in my opinion, of lucifer needs a looking into.
The idea of satan being a beautiful angel, cherub, who usurped God in the very beginning would "seem" to be an event of great importance and should have or would have been revealed in the very beginning imo.
And just as the stories and fables that you all to well know, are all built on the ET doctrine of eternal torment in a mythical hell. How does this one Latin word, used only once in the entire Bible get such mighty
billing?
Jesus said..Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning,.... here we have the devil's beginning
This is proved, imo, in Gen. 3. as the serpent.
The dictionary I own has lucifer defined by.... Christian theology and why not?
lucifer, a Latin word meaning "light bearer"( a match used to be called a lucifer) in some translations is "howl" (Lamsa) and CLT 12 How have you fallen from the heavens! Howl, son of the dawn! And it is beyond me how satan/adversary which in all my readings is darkness and can be somthing to do with light; now 2Co 11:14 and no wonder--for even the Adversary doth transform himself into a messenger of light;
but there is no evidence that the adversary used this disguise in the beginning other than stories, which say satan was this great and beautiful angel. It really makes no matter to me, in Isa.14 the word is to the King of Babylon(at the time) and Ezk. refers to the prince of Tyrus. And to see satan as a light bearer, I don't get it. There are some who speculate that those two chapters speak of Adam. I am stayed and settled in a learning place and I am willing and open for correction.
I agree with you Micah. The texts are not clear and some assumptions have to be made to arrive at conclusions.
I think the bible makes it clear that Satan/devil/lucifer (whatever you want to call him) was one of the archangels only for reasons of him being able to get 1/3 of the angels to join in his rebellion.
There is also mention of this character in the book of Job and is shown to have as much power as God allows, which it seems he allows a lot. I don't believe he can read minds or knows the future other than by deduction which we all are capable of to some degree. :2c:
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 03, 2013, 03:35:26 PM
I agree with you Micah. The texts are not clear and some assumptions have to be made to arrive at conclusions.
I think the bible makes it clear that Satan/devil/lucifer (whatever you want to call him) was one of the archangels only for reasons of him being able to get 1/3 of the angels to join in his rebellion.
There is also mention of this character in the book of Job and is shown to have as much power as God allows, which it seems he allows a lot. I don't believe he can read minds or knows the future other than by deduction which we all are capable of to some degree. :2c:
Now D, this is what I don't find Bible evidence of, "
I think the bible makes it clear that Satan/devil/lucifer (whatever you want to call him) was one of the archangels only for reasons of him being able to get 1/3 of the angels to join in his rebellion." First you say, "I agree with you Micah.
The texts are not clear and some assumptions have to be made to arrive at conclusions. "
That does not seem clear to me? An archangel when? Besides, right now my quest subject is "lucifer."
That word lucifer is absent from the line up in..Rev 12:9 and the great dragon was cast forth--the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,'......
And if there was a rebellion of such, in the beginning, why nothing until Rev?
For me anyway the Revelation of Jesus Christ is 90% spiritual and is being waged as the believer and overcomer grows up in Christ. But that is a different subject.
You're right agin. I wasn't paying careful attention and made some assumptions of my own :doh:
well remembering the evil adversary is an evil contrast spirit...and that this spirit will permeate the creation
will help us, In heaven when this spirit accused man day and night and misled angels..named the dragon
for adversary of the woman bearing the manchild.
when in the garment and clothed as a serpent to mislead Adam and Eve..the original serpent....
when manifested as a government on earth..a beast..when Babylon rides her..false-religion riding
upon a beastly government.. when this adversary gives false visions and wrongly says'it is written'
he is a false-prophet. When he calls evil good and good evil..and puts forth darkness for light he is Lucifer
when he takes and possesses man's body..he is known as the man of sin/man of lawlessness/son
of perdition that goes into cutting off/lof..
he is manifested as all the above...Just as God's faithful angels are heavenly host..the Government of the Lamb
a lamp in the darkness..a son of God....a woman bearing the manchild..the spirit of truth
"When he calls evil good and good evil..and puts forth darkness for light he is Lucifer..." Sheila
American Heritage College Dictionary, Lucifer n. 1. The archangel cast from heaven for leading the revolt of the angels; Satan. < OE, morning star, Lucifer < Latin Lucifer < lucifer, light-bringer: lux, luc-, light" (page 821).
The very next word under "Lucifer" is, luciferase n. An enzyme that catalyzes the oxidation of luciferin." Hmmmmm. What have we here? "Lucifer + in."
And the word that follows "luciferase" in this same dictionary is: " luciferin n. A chemical substance present in the cells of bioluminescent organisms, such as fireflies that produce a bluish-green light when oxidized. [Latin Lucifer, light-bringing; see LUCIFER + -IN.]" (page. 821).
There it is! Lucifer is the 'chemical bioluminescence' in the cells of FIREFLIES!
.....otherwise known as Beezelbub..Lord of the Flies
I know that I should be convinced now.
:laugh: :iagree:..amen, well said. lol!
But is that the best you have? I offered the meaning of the word lucifer and you offered Beezelbub, because flies and fire go together? Seriously, Sheila the lore of what religion and theology has presented as hell and eternal torment is faulty, and proven so by the Word. All I'm asking for is that the Word itself prove this lucifer story. How did the prince of Tyrus and the King of Babylon become lucifer, as least in Isa. for there is no lucifer in Ezk.? Is there any scripture? Not what is imagined by men as to what the chapters mean. When was the adversary a cherub?
ok..seriously...a cherub represents a governmental authority. there are two cherubs with their wings
over the ark of the covenant.with the mercy seat above it..so it represents dominion/kingship.
God give dominion to Adam over the earth..............til iniquity/sin was found in you...is the same
as an abomination on the wing[spirit] of the temple......Man's body is God's temple for His holy
spirit to dwell.
due to this being an exercize in good/evil..evil entered...an evil spirTi on wing.........so when satan enters man
who was given dominion[like King of Tyre etc] and rules not in accordance with God..but as a representative
of an evil spiri[USURPS DOMINION]t...he is called lucifer...man rules man to his ruin
another example in which the cherub that coverth[lucifer] is seen..is iSAAIH 25;7 oN THIS MOUNTAIN
HE WILL DESTROY THE SHROUD THAT ENFOLDS ALL PEOPLE, THE SHEET THAT COVERS ALL NATIONS
HE WILL SWALLOW UP DEATH FOREVER .[SIN ENTERED THEREFORE DEATH COME TO ALL MEN]
nOW jESUS cHRIST COME...hEIR AND GIVEN kINGDOM POWER AND AUTHORITY OVE HEAVEN AND EARTH
AND 'COVERED' US WITH HIS ATONING SACRIFICE[FOR MAN WITH SIN IN HIM..CAN NOT 'COVER'
ANYTHING. iF THE LIGHT THAT BE IN YOU[LUCIFER] BE DARKNESS[AN EVIL SPIRIT] HOW GREAT
IS THAT DARKNESS
mATTHEW 7;22 THE THE EYE IS THE LAMP OF THE BODY....IF YOUR EYES ARE GOOD,YOUR WHOLE
BODY WILL BE FULL OF LIGHT. BUT IF YOUR EYES ARE BAD,YOUR WHOLE BODY WILL BE FULL
OF DARKNESS.. THESE ARE SPIRITUAL EYES....GOOD/BAD SPIRITS THAT LEAD MEN IN
UNDERSTANDING AND MISUNDERSTANDING.
This is talking about Satan as the indwelt man called the Antichrist and Satan as the god of this world. That's my opinion.
It lines up with the vision of Daniel 2, of a terrible man with the head of gold [Babylon]. This is the man with the mind of Satan, also known as Lucifer. The time period is the end of the age after Lucifer [in the body of the Antichrist] has been thrown into the pit for 1000 years.
3 In that wonderful day when the Lord gives his people rest from sorrow and fear, from slavery and chains, 4 you will taunt the king of Babylon. You will say,
"The mighty man has been destroyed.
Yes, your insolence is ended.
5 For the Lord has crushed your wicked power
and broken your evil rule.
6 You struck the people with endless blows of rage
and held the nations in your angry grip
with unrelenting tyranny.
7 But finally the earth is at rest and quiet.
Now it can sing again!
8 Even the trees of the forest—
the cypress trees and the cedars of Lebanon—
sing out this joyous song:
'Since you have been cut down,
no one will come now to cut us down!'
9 "In the place of the dead there is excitement
over your arrival.
The spirits of world leaders and mighty kings long dead
stand up to see you.
10 With one voice they all cry out,
'Now you are as weak as we are!
11 Your might and power were buried with you.
The sound of the harp in your palace has ceased.
Now maggots are your sheet,
and worms your blanket.'
12 "How you are fallen from heaven,
O shining star, son of the morning!
You have been thrown down to the earth,
you who destroyed the nations of the world.
13 For you said to yourself,
'I will ascend to heaven and set my throne above God's stars.
I will preside on the mountain of the gods
far away in the north.
14 I will climb to the highest heavens
and be like the Most High.'
15 Instead, you will be brought down to the place of the dead,
down to its lowest depths.
16 Everyone there will stare at you and ask,
'Can this be the one who shook the earth
and made the kingdoms of the world tremble?
17 Is this the one who destroyed the world
and made it into a wasteland?
Is this the king who demolished the world's greatest cities
and had no mercy on his prisoners?'
18 "The kings of the nations lie in stately glory,
each in his own tomb,
19 but you will be thrown out of your grave
like a worthless branch.
Like a corpse trampled underfoot,
you will be dumped into a mass grave
with those killed in battle.
You will descend to the pit.
20 You will not be given a proper burial,
for you have destroyed your nation
and slaughtered your people.
The descendants of such an evil person
will never again receive honor.
21 Kill this man's children!
Let them die because of their father's sins!
They must not rise and conquer the earth,
filling the world with their cities."
22 This is what the Lord of Heaven's Armies says:
"I, myself, have risen against Babylon!
I will destroy its children and its children's children,"
says the Lord.
23 "I will make Babylon a desolate place of owls,
filled with swamps and marshes.
I will sweep the land with the broom of destruction.
I, the Lord of Heaven's Armies, have spoken!"
--Isa 14
Something that has helped me come to the understanding I currently have has been to consider the entire section of those prophetic writings as a whole, which starts in chapter 25 and ends in chapter 32. In particular, when I see the thematic connections (related phrases or words) which is how the ancient rabbis studied the scriptures, as found beginning in chapter 26 through 28, I see the phrases under discussion being used to describe the actual ruler and prince of Tyre.
Here are some examples of thematic connections being made:
Eze 26:21...27:36...28:19.
Eze 27:3...27:11...28:12
Quote from: Molly on January 04, 2013, 12:11:59 AM
This is talking about Satan as the indwelt man called the Antichrist and Satan as the god of this world. That's my opinion.
It lines up with the vision of Daniel 2, of a terrible man with the head of gold [Babylon]. This is the man with the mind of Satan, also known as Lucifer. The time period is the end of the age after Lucifer [in the body of the Antichrist] has been thrown into the pit for 1000 years.
3 In that wonderful day when the Lord gives his people rest from sorrow and fear, from slavery and chains, 4 you will taunt the king of Babylon. You will say,
"The mighty man has been destroyed.
Yes, your insolence is ended.
5 For the Lord has crushed your wicked power
and broken your evil rule.
6 You struck the people with endless blows of rage
and held the nations in your angry grip
with unrelenting tyranny.
7 But finally the earth is at rest and quiet.
Now it can sing again!
8 Even the trees of the forest—
the cypress trees and the cedars of Lebanon—
sing out this joyous song:
'Since you have been cut down,
no one will come now to cut us down!'
9 "In the place of the dead there is excitement
over your arrival.
The spirits of world leaders and mighty kings long dead
stand up to see you.
10 With one voice they all cry out,
'Now you are as weak as we are!
11 Your might and power were buried with you.
The sound of the harp in your palace has ceased.
Now maggots are your sheet,
and worms your blanket.'
12 "How you are fallen from heaven,
O shining star, son of the morning!
You have been thrown down to the earth,
you who destroyed the nations of the world.
13 For you said to yourself,
'I will ascend to heaven and set my throne above God's stars.
I will preside on the mountain of the gods
far away in the north.
14 I will climb to the highest heavens
and be like the Most High.'
15 Instead, you will be brought down to the place of the dead,
down to its lowest depths.
16 Everyone there will stare at you and ask,
'Can this be the one who shook the earth
and made the kingdoms of the world tremble?
17 Is this the one who destroyed the world
and made it into a wasteland?
Is this the king who demolished the world's greatest cities
and had no mercy on his prisoners?'
18 "The kings of the nations lie in stately glory,
each in his own tomb,
19 but you will be thrown out of your grave
like a worthless branch.
Like a corpse trampled underfoot,
you will be dumped into a mass grave
with those killed in battle.
You will descend to the pit.
20 You will not be given a proper burial,
for you have destroyed your nation
and slaughtered your people.
The descendants of such an evil person
will never again receive honor.
21 Kill this man's children!
Let them die because of their father's sins!
They must not rise and conquer the earth,
filling the world with their cities."
22 This is what the Lord of Heaven's Armies says:
"I, myself, have risen against Babylon!
I will destroy its children and its children's children,"
says the Lord.
23 "I will make Babylon a desolate place of owls,
filled with swamps and marshes.
I will sweep the land with the broom of destruction.
I, the Lord of Heaven's Armies, have spoken!"
--Isa 14
The head of gold represents a pure monarchy. The chest and arms of silver represent the dual rulership of the Medes and the Persians, the belly and thighs of bronze the Greeks of Philip and Alexander, the feet of iron and clay was the Roman Empire, smashed by the little stone of the Kingdom of God. Since the little stone smashed the statue, the mountain of the Lord has been growing in exaltation and wil be the footstool of the Lord, the heights of Jerusalem His dwelling place, from whence He will rule the nations with a rod of iron so that the lion and the Lamb may lay down together.
"In the last days the mountain of the Lord wll be exalted above all the other mountains..."
The freedom of Jubilee is coming to earth, in the form of the City of God- a reign of justice, equity, prosperity and community.
"And the Lord will reign from Zion and justice will be His footstool".
We can argue over the details, but nevertheless, let us rejoice.
"When you see these things begin to happen rejoice, for your redemption draws nigh".
Most of the Bible is devoted to God and His beloved, Israel. Lucifer/Satan/Devil gets only a brief mention from time to time, and most of what is presented to us as evidence has been scraped together and twisted into evidence. Compared to Jesus, Satan gets the very short end of it, and that's the way it should be. Satan is just a blip, a speed bump on the way to the Kingdom.
The adversary is/was the most important and intricate player in the whole entire process of His creation, besides Jesus Christ. :dsunny:
I do not lift the adversary up as in a victory, I do not admire the position, but without that force, that opposite energy of anti good, man would not, nor could man win any victory. Jesus gave/used His blood to vanquish the adversary, and i, at least have not resisted to blood. Heb 12:4 Not yet unto blood did ye resist--with the sin striving;
I give the enemy no more credit than, the job.
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 04, 2013, 06:29:49 AM
The adversary is/was the most important and intricate player in the whole entire process of His creation, besides Jesus Christ. :dsunny:
That's an overinflated opinion of the adversary in my opinion :o)
Well what do you fight against? And why do you fight against it? For what purpose do you fight against? Just what do you fight against for? Why fight? For what reason? :):( :dsunny:
The old sepent, the devil, the dragon was created for one purpose and one purpose only...to cause man to descern good from evil. Evil was created by the Lord, to educate the man He created.
But religion along with the imagination of man, created the opposition to good, to be an enity with a proper name and with a prounonced identity with braging rights. The adversary is a fearsome
force, that must be reckoned with, and that enemy will use all the animations of man, infecting man's imagination, to deny Jehovah God. Religion gives the adversary proper names like satan, lucifer
gives the enemy, the opponent prominence undeserved, i will not. The adversary is a foe defeated, defeated by the Savior of the World, Jesus Christ, now, i... through the faith of Jesus Christ, will come to
know this victory under the blood. i will not give the adversary more notice than rebuke.
"i will not give the adversary more notice than rebuke."
I agree with that statement.
How I think God "created evil".
"Well, first off, He created them like Himself. So he gave them a free will. He gave them power. He gave them creative intelligence. He gave them the authority to create and to destroy. The right to obey or refuse. And He saw that they would fall, but He planted "eternity in their hearts" so they would always hunger for love. How could they know love unless they experienced hate. How could they fully appreciate the glory of the gift of life unless they could experience the terror of death. He set it all in motion knowing the outcome, forseeing the outworking of every possible equation. He knew each one from their formation through to their completion. He new the good and the ill and He knew that His power- His love- His light- His truth-would relentlessly draw them all back home to the Makers Heart."
http://www.hellisamyth.com/themakersheart.htm
Never in scripture does it say, "Lucifer became Satan," or, "Satan was Lucifer." Lucifer is not used in modern translations.
The English (of the King James Version) has "Lucifer" which is from Latin, Luciferon.
The Hebrew (Stong's H1966) is soometimes rendered hilil, transliterated heylel and pronounced hā·lāl', based on a word that means to "shine" brightly.
The Greek is Phosphoros. (Stong's G5459)
1) light bringing, giving light
2) the planet Venus, the morning star, day star
3) metaph. Christ
Phosphorus in this passage is translated "day star," for Christ: "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts..." (2 Pt 119) What can be meant, since we aren't looking for Satan to arise in our hearts? at least I hope that's not what we're looking for...and I hope nobody's looking for what they can use to make a new religious cult.
It seems "the light bearer" is the human race. The Light was carried by and born as a human being, a child of Adam. We are being made in His form and similatude. We were who reached out to be like God in a way He had forbidden for which we were cast out. Some have said "the Shining One" was contextually referring to the high Priest of Israel to whom Babylon was looking for light at that time.
Without scripture ever saying so, the idea of 1/3 of the angels has been tied into the passage in Revelation that says: "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born." (Rv 123-4, KJV) Nothing here about the stars being angels. In the beginning of Genesis the stars are said to be for signs. The first thing they are used to signify is in Joseph's dream of the sun and moon and 11 stars bowing to his star. The stars then are sons of God from humankind.
Much more can and has been said. The basic truth was presented in the original post. The writer(s) of Hebrews said, "Time fails me to tell..."
Quote from: eaglesway on January 04, 2013, 07:40:41 AM
How I think God "created evil".
"Well, first off, He created them like Himself. So he gave them a free will. He gave them power. He gave them creative intelligence. He gave them the authority to create and to destroy. The right to obey or refuse. And He saw that they would fall, but He planted "eternity in their hearts" so they would always hunger for love. How could they know love unless they experienced hate. How could they fully appreciate the glory of the gift of life unless they could experience the terror of death. He set it all in motion knowing the outcome, forseeing the outworking of every possible equation. He knew each one from their formation through to their completion. He new the good and the ill and He knew that His power- His love- His light- His truth-would relentlessly draw them all back home to the Makers Heart."
http://www.hellisamyth.com/themakersheart.htm
I, me and my opinion, agree with all of the above but this one part of the statement, "So he gave them a free will." I, me in my opinion, is a s---y assumption. For the adversary to have "free will" would be admitting a will that would/could usurp the very will of the CREATOR. i cannot nor will i give give leave to such a thought. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
I'm with Micah on this one. If we are not 100% free to override the will of God then we aren't really free - thank GOD!!
Reformer I agree with you. I think he represents the high priest as all his coverings are the coverings of the high priest (the covering cherub). And Adam was the priest in the garden, aka the HOH.
Here is a post that we discussed this a couple years ago.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/luciferadam/
And an associated one
http://tentmaker.org/forum/book-of-revelation/carnal-nature-and-mark-of-the-beast/msg128913/#msg128913
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 04, 2013, 09:34:53 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on January 04, 2013, 07:40:41 AM
How I think God "created evil".
"Well, first off, He created them like Himself. So he gave them a free will. He gave them power. He gave them creative intelligence. He gave them the authority to create and to destroy. The right to obey or refuse. And He saw that they would fall, but He planted "eternity in their hearts" so they would always hunger for love. How could they know love unless they experienced hate. How could they fully appreciate the glory of the gift of life unless they could experience the terror of death. He set it all in motion knowing the outcome, forseeing the outworking of every possible equation. He knew each one from their formation through to their completion. He new the good and the ill and He knew that His power- His love- His light- His truth-would relentlessly draw them all back home to the Makers Heart."
http://www.hellisamyth.com/themakersheart.htm
For the adversary to have "free will" would be admitting a will that would/could usurp the very will of the CREATOR. i cannot nor will i give give leave to such a thought. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
I could give no leave to such a thought either, but it is not the logical conclusion to my meaning.
By free will, I do not mean sovereign over God, obvioulsy, regardless of whether my view on the will of man and angels is correct or not, no being can usurp the will of God. I look at it like this. "Who causes all things to work according to the counsel of His will".
If God builds a fence, and places His creatures within it, and says-"You are free to do as you will in there".......That would be more like how I see it. It is a really large fence around a very expansive territory, but it is not infinite or universally sovereign. In addition, God, who has a distinct purpose, and is fully aware and confident in the immense beauty of sacrificial love, never had a doubt as to the eventual conclusion. "By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God"......."The light shines in the darkness and the darkness cannot overcome it"...."And God who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ."....." In the beginning the earth was without form and void and the spirit hovered over the waters, and God said...."
God speaks into chaos(our freedom as yet unsubjected to His love). Order, beauty and harmony(light- as our souls begin to flow into the anakephalaomai) emerge as the spirit moves upon the waters(our spirit. soul, heart, mind)- drawing us to Jesus, the image of the invisible God.
I say these things not to persuade so much as to explain what I see, and why I agree that no one may supercede the will of God, beyond what he allows within the aion and kosmos.
Free will example:
12 "All right, you may test him," the Lord said to Satan. "Do whatever you want with everything he possesses, but don't harm him physically." So Satan left the Lord's presence. --Job 1
Quote from: Molly on January 04, 2013, 06:27:10 PM
Free will example:
12 "All right, you may test him," the Lord said to Satan. "Do whatever you want with everything he possesses, but don't harm him physically." So Satan left the Lord's presence. --Job 1
Right there in the "whatever" lay choices and options. And the Lord CAUSED that. Choices are abundant all day long, but there must be a cause for the choice made.
Quote from: jabcat on January 04, 2013, 08:05:27 PM
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 04, 2013, 02:03:52 PM
I'm with Micah on this one. If we are not 100% free to override the will of God then we aren't really free - thank GOD!!
I agree. Any limits at all, IMO, takes away total freedom. Also, IMO, "free will" is a silly term when trying to explain how man's will operates either in contrast to, or in accord with, God's will. :2c: Does He require and allow choices? Of course. It's how we learn and grow into maturity in Him - as we learn that all's best when our will is submitted to His. Another :2c:. :bigGrin:
Into my pouch :2c: and raise :2c: :dsunny:
Oops. What happened to lucifer? I believe that Reformer said it well. I believe that there was a reason, don't know what reason, for the translators sticking the word lucifer in Ezk. 28 just like the translators, for whatever reason, would not translate the word hell properly for what it is. It is very difficult discussing the Bible and witnessing with all the theological theories that have been established and sold/taught by denominations. :sigh:
I had someone once tell me "free will" was in the Bible, and showed me where. One reference is "they gave a freewill offering", or "they gave freely". I believe any such references, in some translations, are saying the person in question did something of their choosing, not at that time being coerced or made to do it - not that it's a proof point that man somehow has total "free will". I personally believe that's mis-using a couple of references to make an otherwise scripturally unsustainable point. :2c: I'm not saying man doesn't have some freedom of choice - but I don't believe it's total, or that even in our most deprived state, that our will is totally free to completely operate against God's will. Otherwise, I'd really like to be able to fly like a bird. :myahoo:
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 04, 2013, 08:11:05 PM
Oops. What happened to lucifer? I believe that Reformer said it well. I believe that there was a reason, don't know what reason, for the translators sticking the word lucifer in Ezk. 28 just like the translators, for whatever reason, would not translate the word hell properly for what it is. It is very difficult discussing the Bible and witnessing with all the theological theories that have been established and sold/taught by denominations. :sigh:
You're right. Bump the OP. :) :hijacked: I haven't looked - was it by the person who started the thread :laugh:, or someone else? Doesn't matter - thread starter has requested back on topic. :notworthy:
Discussion on Will;
http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/will/
molly,
IMO,Since God said Satan couldn't harm Job,Satan's free will stopped where God's will was.
And I contend that Satan was doing God's will thinking it was his free will.
All the time God was merely using Satan. God has always used Satan to acheive his purpose.
If God had ever foreseen Satan doing anything that conflicted with his will, he would have stopped Satan or not have even created him.
We are all created for the purpose of God's will. Some embrace it, most don't and some think that they are "freewilly" embracing it.
Jesus said, "You didn't choose me. I chose you." :2c:
Quote from: jabcat on January 04, 2013, 08:12:04 PM
I had someone once tell me "free will" was in the Bible, and showed me where. One reference is "they gave a freewill offering", or "they gave freely". I believe any such references, in some translations, are saying the person in question did something of their choosing, not at that time being coerced or made to do it - not that it's a proof point that man somehow has total "free will". I personally believe that's mis-using a couple of references to make an otherwise scripturally unsustainable point. :2c: I'm not saying man doesn't have some freedom of choice - but I don't believe it's total, or that even in our most deprived state, that our will is totally free to completely operate against God's will. Otherwise, I'd really like to be able to fly like a bird. :myahoo:
Really, when conversing with someone who has a different view than yourself, is the point to impute your meaning on their words? Shouldn't it be to understand what they are saying?
I have no desire to overturn anyone elses opinion. I just desire to express my own. I do not ridicule the opinions of others,not do I expect my perspective to be called "silly" because it does not align with yours.(no offense intended folks :o)
When I say free will, I am juxtiposing it against the "marionette" philosophy that God acts everyone of our acts. This view has been pressed on the site by some- and I have no problem that they see it that way, but I do not. We are not God's "marionettes"- in my opinion. He is teaching us, by allowing us to exercise a limited degree of free will- called "stewardship"- how to align with His will and FLOW WITH HIM.
However the term "Free Will" means only that God has granted us freedom. The glorious freedom of the children of God. It is a term used by theologians conversing from differing points of view for hundreds of years. You think they are all "silly". I think some of them are, some of them aren't. I think the term is not "silly' at all and I do not feel "silly for using it.
It seems to me at some point, since I was only responding to Micah's posts on the "marionette" philosophy of predestination and the creation of evil, that we need to realize that it is glorious that people of all doctrinal persuasio begin to believ in UR, as I do, a proponent of a kind of modified Arminianism- or as some of you do, as Preterists, and modified Calvinists, or WHATEVER :o)
It also astounds me that people can speak of this marionette predestination view over and over but as soon as someone uses the term "free will" it sets of a chain reaction, which I think is evidence of a predisposition towards a certain view as if it were PART AND PARCEL WITH UR- which, in my opinion, it is not :o)
For instance, James says "God is not tempted by evil, nor does He tempt any man with evil, but everyman is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed. Lust conceives sin, sin conceives death."
Did God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden to tempt Adam and Eve.?Did he tell the adversary to tempt them? Would this not be the greatest hypocrisy in the universe to tell Satan to tempt someone then deny that you ever tempted anyone? Perhaps there is something more to the mystery than a simple black or white doctrine from either perspective?
Was James a fool? Is James not scriptural? Was James decieved? Or was James illuminating "AN ASPECT" of a deep mystery not so simply rendered by man's wisdom?
I think these are honest questions asked by many. The TEMPTATION to force people into our simple answers(Arminian, Calvinist, Preterist, Free Will, Sovereign, Whatever, etc) often obscure ELEMENTS OF TRUTH that God wants all sides to receive :o)
Even though not intended for you, and not directly identifying any specific person's post, I probably shouldn't have said the word "silly". So no matter what I personally think of the term, I'll rescind the use of the word silly. My apologies. That particular post has been taken down.
But by that idea, how can anyone understand any term? I am giving very clear definitions of how I view the term, and it is in common with how thousands of others view it and have viewed it for millenia(not to say I am correct or they were, just to say, it is common for the opposing view to present the other view as ridiculous or untenable or without merit or incomprehensible). The same suppositions can be made of the term "sovereignty" which to some people means God controls every thought and action of every being from the beginning to the end, but to others simply means God will cause all things to work together to accomplish His ultimate plan and purpose. Unless we can discuss those shades of meaning and balance the scales of understanding between extreme views then we are just writing "position papers" to one another- IMO, a complete waste of time.
James, no apology is necessary, I am simply presenting a point of view :o) Obviously, I think it has merit- that doesnt make me right :o) I wasnt "offended" by the word silly- but I do want to stand for what I think is true in an articulate and scriptural fashion - which still doesnt make me right :laugh:
I wanted to write this for a while; but, it doesn't so much belong in this topic, just among a few off topic posts appearing here now. I think I'll put this post where it belongs as jabcat suggested:
http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/will/
______________________________________
I am committed to the belief we make choices that matter and we are judged by the choices we make. I perceive this as reality and am very frustrated about it at times due to the abundance of possibilities and my own inadequacy. I recognize the will to be the foremost aspect of the soul. The power of volition, to commit to a position and continue in it regardless of later developments, to choose to love when it no longer makes any sense and I no longer feel like it: this is what makes marriage a covenant. I find solace and rest from the fact of God's overriding intentions. He has graciously revealed Himself as, The Savior of All." He has decided to overcome evil with good.
Yet, an "uninfluenced choice" is a definition of freewill, and it seems a kind of oxymoron. Not only is the commitment to something without being affected by anything behind many people's "freewill" doctrine, there must also be added the belief that the less influenced we are by anything the greater is our moral excellence. Both of these conditions of soul are much worse than their opposites.
To make a choice without being impressed of any difference between options is either foolishness or the choice is regarding trivia. To be externally sheltered from impressions of relative value and to internally regard everything as irrelevant defines a horrible state of mind, one that is ignorant, spoiled, and without authority, rather than a virtuous man.
Intrinsically and extrinsically: God is the Significance of All Expression. We should be persuaded by what is behind the appearances of all things what these things are worth. As well, things are in a world of relatedness to other things. God is the Measure of All Relationship. God is the Standard of All Measure. God's emanations as a constant define the meaning of things. As Jesus' disciples, we should be impressed and aroused by what we perceive as important.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 05, 2013, 06:05:45 AM
Quote from: jabcat on January 04, 2013, 08:12:04 PM
I had someone once tell me "free will" was in the Bible, and showed me where. One reference is "they gave a freewill offering", or "they gave freely". I believe any such references, in some translations, are saying the person in question did something of their choosing, not at that time being coerced or made to do it - not that it's a proof point that man somehow has total "free will". I personally believe that's mis-using a couple of references to make an otherwise scripturally unsustainable point. :2c: I'm not saying man doesn't have some freedom of choice - but I don't believe it's total, or that even in our most deprived state, that our will is totally free to completely operate against God's will. Otherwise, I'd really like to be able to fly like a bird. :myahoo:
is the point to impute your meaning on their words? Shouldn't it be to understand what they are saying?
I do not ridicule the opinions of others,not do I expect my perspective to be called "silly" because it does not align with yours.(no offense intended folks :o)
Although that post was taken down (not the above-quoted one), just to be clear - that post was specifically addressing a
term, a figure of speech. And yes, I think it's important to try and understand what someone is saying (what they really mean); which is why the term "free will" is a bit of a puzzler to me. :2c:
Quote from: eaglesway on January 05, 2013, 06:05:45 AM
a limited degree of free will- called "stewardship
However the term "Free Will" means only that God has granted us freedom.
What I'm understanding is, you personally see "free will" to mean freedom, but then qualified with limits. I may be wrong, but my suggestion is that the historical use, and when many people
today use that term, it's not used as simply meaning 'freedom'. I believe it's typically a buzz phrase for things like "God doesn't force His will, He's a gentleman,
it's up to us, and we can choose to go to hell if we want to", etc. I even had someone tell me just a couple of days ago, "God expects us to clean
ourselves up".
Quote from: eaglesway on January 05, 2013, 06:05:45 AM
It is a term used by theologians conversing from differing points of view for hundreds of years. You think they are all "silly".
" " my response above, with the addition of - I factually didn't say that I think "they are all silly" - or that
anyone or anyone's
view is. I specifically addressed my personal opinion of a term.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 05, 2013, 06:05:45 AM
It also astounds me that people can speak of this marionette predestination view over and over but as soon as someone uses the term "free will" it sets of a chain reaction, which I think is evidence of a predisposition towards a certain view as if it were PART AND PARCEL WITH UR- which, in my opinion, it is not :o)
I have an opinion, but can't speak for others. It's obviously anyone's choice to use either term as much as they like if that's what suits them; and it does seem some folks mean varying things by it besides what the words seem to me to literally/actually say. So that's for each individual. Me personally? If someone says "God is sovereign", I amen it. If someone says "God is
all sovereign", I may want to know what they mean by that. And if they mean God doesn't require and allow man to make any choices and hold him responsible for it, then I'd disagree. And if someone says "man has free will", I might say "I disagree, man has a will but it's limited - not free". Maybe it's just me that doesn't understand or like the term, and maybe others love it and believe it describes exactly what they believe.
As my old blind aunt used to say; "as the Bible says, every tub must sit on its own bottom". Blessings and grace.
Lucifer is the morning star, the planet Venus Isaiah's description is of the king of Babylon as the fallen morning star cast down from heaven or high places. You must keep it in context to know whom it is referring to, verse 4 is quite clear "4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon".
Quote from: omantodd2000 on January 05, 2013, 09:05:20 AM
Lucifer is the morning star, the planet Venus Isaiah's description is of the king of Babylon as the fallen morning star cast down from heaven or high places. You must keep it in context to know whom it is referring to, verse 4 is quite clear "4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon".
:ty: for getting us back on topic - AGAIN!
Just to note because I was the one who used the word ----y at least first.
Re: Isa. 14 and Ezk. 28
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2013, 09:34:53 AM »
QuoteModifyRemove
Quote from: eaglesway on January 04, 2013, 07:40:41 AM
How I think God "created evil".
"Well, first off, He created them like Himself. So he gave them a free will. He gave them power. He gave them creative intelligence. He gave them the authority to create and to destroy. The right to obey or refuse. And He saw that they would fall, but He planted "eternity in their hearts" so they would always hunger for love. How could they know love unless they experienced hate. How could they fully appreciate the glory of the gift of life unless they could experience the terror of death. He set it all in motion knowing the outcome, forseeing the outworking of every possible equation. He knew each one from their formation through to their completion. He new the good and the ill and He knew that His power- His love- His light- His truth-would relentlessly draw them all back home to the Makers Heart."
http://www.hellisamyth.com/themakersheart.htm
I, me and my opinion, agree with all of the above but this one part of the statement, "So he gave them a free will." I, me in my opinion, is a silly assumption. For the adversary to have "free will" would be admitting a will that would/could usurp the very will of the CREATOR. i cannot nor will i give give leave to such a thought.
What you don't seem to get Micah. is that characterizing one another's posts in that way is counterproductive.
I am not offended by being called silly, or the author of a "silly assumption".
However, you have to understand that not everyone will see things exactly as you do and you are not entirely right in what you see, as neither am I.
For instance,
If God "gives some one a measure of freedom", this does not mean that their will can somehow now "overturn" the ultimate will of God. That logic is not in force just because you say it. It is "silly" to assume that it is. You see? That is just unnecessary and counterproductive in a discussion between brother's and sisters :o)
I don't really think it is silly. I just disagree.
Therfore you need to accept the fact that the way to deal with differing ideas on a forum as this is to answer the scriptures presented by your "opponent" and refrain from personal characterizing their ideas in a negative way.
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 05, 2013, 05:44:59 PM
Just to note because I was the one who used the word ----y at least first.
Re: Isa. 14 and Ezk. 28
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2013, 09:34:53 AM »
QuoteModifyRemove
Quote from: eaglesway on January 04, 2013, 07:40:41 AM
How I think God "created evil".
"Well, first off, He created them like Himself. So he gave them a free will. He gave them power. He gave them creative intelligence. He gave them the authority to create and to destroy. The right to obey or refuse. And He saw that they would fall, but He planted "eternity in their hearts" so they would always hunger for love. How could they know love unless they experienced hate. How could they fully appreciate the glory of the gift of life unless they could experience the terror of death. He set it all in motion knowing the outcome, forseeing the outworking of every possible equation. He knew each one from their formation through to their completion. He new the good and the ill and He knew that His power- His love- His light- His truth-would relentlessly draw them all back home to the Makers Heart."
http://www.hellisamyth.com/themakersheart.htm
I, me and my opinion, agree with all of the above but this one part of the statement, "So he gave them a free will." I, me in my opinion, is a silly assumption. For the adversary to have "free will" would be admitting a will that would/could usurp the very will of the CREATOR. i cannot nor will i give give leave to such a thought.
I found this page a few years ago and thought it was very helpful in understanding this.
http://www.wrestedscripture.com/b07satan/the_angels_that_sinned.html
All I am wanting is a simple Bible verse of scripture that confirms that "lucifer" of Isa.14 and the cherub of Ezk. 28. is satan.
It is no big deal, I just believe that if these stories are true, there should be scripture confirmation. Lighting in Luke is not a morning star.
Besides, how in the world did this post shift to free will? :dontknow: :dsunny:
We exerted our wills and "freely" got off topic. :doh: I'm with Micah - I've heard preachers SAY plenty of things about these scriptures as though they had divine revelation but it still boiled down to conjecture in the end - much like many of the verses in the book of revelation.
There are references in the two prophecies that some folks say, do not exactly fit the subjects of the prophecies. For instance was "the cherub that covers" using a cherub as an allegorical picture of the king of tyrus? or was the king of tyrus, while being prophesied against, also benig used as a typological reference to the spirit who was controling him?
I agree with Omantodd and Micah.I don't really care that much. It is too obscure to establish doctrinal absolutes about the origins of the adversary. Let everyman make his own judgment about it.
I tend to think there is a window into the heavenlies, and the nature of "spirits leaving their proper estates" woven into these prophecies. If you look at them next to Jude 1:6, there are interesting correlations.
:thumbsup: I am convinced that men given as examples..manifest what is in the unseen realms[spirits]
signposts to help us along our way. Jude speaking of the revealing of the man of sin/man of lawlessness
the 'falling away' having already occurred[manifested] and the Lord doing away with ..with the Breath of His coming
simon the sorcerer as a type of follower of Christ Acts 8;18 When Simon saw that the spirit was given
at the laying on of the apostle's hands,he offered them money,and said 'Give me also this ability
so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy spirit. Peter answered; May your money
perish with you,because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money!! You have no part
or share in this ministry..BECAUSE YOUR HEART IS NOT RIGHT. Repent of this wickedness and
pray to the Lord.Perhaps He will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. For I can see that
you are full of bitterness[bitter envy] and captive to sin.
spiritual types and shadows..that we may heed
Yes, exactly. There are these foundational principles, major themes and streams running throughout the word. Balak, Jeroboam, Leviathan. These names are united in the spirit they manifest. Simon, Elymas, Diotrophes, Hymenas and Philetus, Jannes and Jambres, Jezebel.
In that day the LORD will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, With His fierce and great and mighty sword, Even Leviathan the twisted serpent; And He will kill the dragon who lives in the sea. In that day, "A vineyard of wine, sing of it! "I, the LORD, am its keeper; I water it every moment. So that no one will damage it, I guard it night and day.
(Isa 27:1-3)
And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
(Eph 4:11-16)
amen!
Silly me, I am just going to assume that there are no Bible scripture verses that actually identify Isa. 14 and Ezk. 28 to be the adversary and that the lucifer mentioned could be a translation error for the word "howl," since that is how Isa. 14:12, the only word found is "heh-lehl," eill, which is a form of the Hebrew stem "yah-lahl," ill, meaning howl. Here is Kittel's Hebrew Text for the Hebrew Stem ill—"yah-lahl"—HOWL:
Isa. 14:31 eili Howl
Jer. 48:20 eilili Howl
Joel 1:11 eililu howl
Zech.11:2 eill howl
Zech.11:2 eililu howl
Isa. 14:12 eill Lucifer (??)
I want to thank everyone. :dsunny: :HeartThrob: :gimmefive:
:URWelcome: :dsunny: :laughing7: :Peace2:
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 07, 2013, 06:06:08 PM
Besides, how in the world did this post shift to free will? :dontknow: :dsunny:
Perhaps the primary resort for applying Arminius' freewill doctrine is in these two passages. Satan is a good Lucifer gone bad...only it isn't stated anywhere.
What about people born into situations where other people's sins ruin them mentally and emotionally before they have any choice? There's not much comfort or justice in being told you have to take responsibility for your own sins. Without knowing God is the Savior of all, specially those that believe, God appears hopelessly unjust and our experience intolerable. It even seems that way when we do better understand what the God of the Bible is like. These things are challenging very many people, trapped in sins that are not their own fault. Much of our lives are not the product of the manipulations of our own wills.
My next door neighbor. Born with Spina bifida she is confined to a wheelchair for life.
Her father was the pastor of a small church and molested her around the age of 7.
He, unbelievably, still thinks he did nothing wrong cuz it was OK for Lot and he figured she'd never have the experience otherwise.
Thank God, he's in Jail and she is now 23 years old and "accepted" christ about 3 years ago. In college, majoring in music.
Was this fair?? Would anyone want to trade places with her? I was in a wheelchair for 3 days and it drove me nuts.
What? oh...you could tell :Chinscratch:
Well, I certainly satisfied with the answer :dsunny: :HeartThrob: :Peace2: