Place of resurrection, Heaven or Earth?

[omantodd2000]

scarletwren

Thanks for this, very interesting.

[scarletwren]

you're welcome

I love finding out new information on various verses.  I don't always change my mind/perspective as a result but sometimes I do.

[seekfirst]

Ded2daworld, re: W. Virginia "almost heaven"
eaglesway, re: And it is so :o)

Thanks, I really enjoyed this very brief lighthearted exchange; I get too serious sometimes, well, maybe a lot of times!!

Anyway, I invite you guys to come to "my heaven on earth"-->riding the open range in The Big Hole Valley, Pioneer Mountains area of Montana.  I "love" horses, wide open spaces, mountains...

even found a hymn to support my idea of "heaven on earth"   :girlheart: yes, I'm a girl

BEAUTIFUL VALLEY  (John Scotford, 1872)

There's a beautiful valley brought to view,
From the place where my feet have trod,
With a crystal river passing through,
That flows from the throne of God.
On either side of this lovely vale
Is the tree of life so fair,
Whose leaves and fruits with the sun's soft beams
Breathe health on the balmy air.

Refrain
O beautiful valley, lovely valley,
As sung by the seer of old,
And its wonderful city! lovely city,
With streets of burnished gold.


This beautiful valley, clad in green,
As bards were wont to tell,
Is the loveliest spot that eye hath seen,
Where the meek and the lowly dwell;
The storms of anger and pride that break
On sides of the hills above,
When fierce winds war and mountains shake,
Come not to this vale of love.

Refrain


This beautiful vale is the home of peace,
'Tis Emanuel's land most fair,
Where doubts, and fears, and discords cease,
For the spirit of love is there;
And visions bright of a lovelier clime
Cheer the humble dwellers there,
And many voices whisper, "come,
O come to the vale most fair."

Refrain


'Tis here we'll dwell, in this lovely vale,
While our forms are growing old,
And when our mortal life shall fail,
And in death our haands we fold,
We'll meekly tread the lowly path,
That the great Redeemer trod,
And live with Him in our home above,
In that city of our God.

[Paul L]

Just wanted to get peoples opinions, not looking to debate them. Is the place of reward and resurrection in Heaven or Earth? What do you believe happens when you die? If you can use direct evidence from the bible that would be helpful.

There are two uniquely described resurrections in the Bible:

Israelite Resurrection

Ezekiel  37
New King James Ver.

3 And He said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?"
4 Again He said to me, "Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD! 5 Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: "Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live. 6 I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. Then you shall know that I am the LORD.

.......and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 Indeed, as I looked, the sinews and the flesh came upon them, and the skin covered them over; but there was no breath in them.
9 Also He said to me, "Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live."'" 10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great army.

The unique perspective here is that these are real people raised from their graves in the form of flesh & blood.......a return to their original state of existence.

11 Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say, 'Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!' 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

Thus is the identification of those who participate in this resurrection, only Israelites:

13 Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. 14 I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it," says the LORD.

......all those Israelites who have ever lived & died  anywhere in the world through all the generations are resurrected & restored to the Land of Promise from all points of the compass to which they had been scattered.

21 "Then say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again.

25 Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children's children....


Body of Christ Resurrection

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
New King James Version (NKJV)

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.[a]
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.


Next, followed by Paul's description of our resurrection........that of the Body of Christ:

1 Cor 51-54

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory.



Conclusions:

These are the two detailed resurrections described in the Bible. The contrasting differences are stark to say the least. The resurrection of Israel is a return to flesh & blood. The resurrection of the Body of Christ requires a change of  body type that is  immortal. Why is this?

The reason why this is involves the uniqueness of promises of rulership God has assigned to the two groups.

God has assigned Israel pre-eminence over the nations of the earth; flesh & blood body types are perfectly suitable for living on earth.

Zechariah 8:22-23
New King James Version (NKJV)
22 Yes, many peoples and strong nations
Shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem,
And to pray before the LORD.'
23 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: 'In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God Is with you

Revelation 21:24-26
New King James Version (NKJV)

24 And the nations of those who are saved[a] shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.

God has assigned the Body of Christ pre-eminence over the celestial beings populating the Universe; flesh & blood cannot exist in the vacuous nature of environs beyond Earth's atmosphere & gravity, a different body type is necessary.

1 Corinthians 6:3
New King James Version (NKJV)

3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?

We are not told why we are destined to judge angels but they must be the ones described in Jude:

Jude 1:6
New King James Version (NKJV)

6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day.

[ded2daworld]

Right on PaulL
I would like to add that whenever the Bible uses the term "flesh and blood" it means the natural man. "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God"
Why? Because the natural man has sinful blood.
Those bones resurrected in Israel there was no mention of the blood.
While Blood sustaiins us, it also causes decay within the body.
I believe we will all receive a "blood transfusion" of sorts whereas our
sinful blood is replaced with the sinless blood of the Lamb. (This is possibly where we "put on" immortality)
We drink the blood of Christ(wine) as a remembrance and eat his flesh.(bread) Symbolizing our being one with Him
"Bone of his Bone, Life of his life" (The life is in the blood and with sinners like us, so is the death) But our new life is in the blood of Christ.

[Molly]

Thanks, Paul.

What if you'd rather be on earth?

I'm not a celestial type.

[ded2daworld]

Molly, how do you know till you've tried it. Maybe the "new" Molly will love it :icon_jokercolor:

[Paul L]

author=Molly link=topic=10956.msg147520#msg147520 date=1357250083]
Thanks, Paul.

What if you'd rather be on earth?

If you are an Israelite, maybe you'll get that choice someday, but not if you are in the Body of Christ.

I'm not a celestial type.

You will be, sooner or later.....I would pick sooner & let Christ be about the business of figuring out how he's going to handle it.

Israel gets to rule planet Earth, the Body of Christ gets sent to the outermost regions of the Universe to rule over rebellious angels. I think winging it around the celestial cosmos would be a lot more interesting.

[micah7:9]

 :sigh: :msealed: :umnick: :pitiful: :scratchhead: :dsunny: :HeartThrob: :eek:

[eaglesway]

author=Molly link=topic=10956.msg147520#msg147520 date=1357250083]
Thanks, Paul.

What if you'd rather be on earth?

If you are an Israelite, maybe you'll get that choice someday, but not if you are in the Body of Christ.

I'm not a celestial type.

You will be, sooner or later.....I would pick sooner & let Christ be about the business of figuring out how he's going to handle it.

Israel gets to rule planet Earth, the Body of Christ gets sent to the outermost regions of the Universe to rule over rebellious angels. I think winging it around the celestial cosmos would be a lot more interesting.

Some interesting opinions, in my opinion

[micah7:9]

author=Molly link=topic=10956.msg147520#msg147520 date=1357250083]
Thanks, Paul.

What if you'd rather be on earth?

If you are an Israelite, maybe you'll get that choice someday, but not if you are in the Body of Christ.

I'm not a celestial type.

You will be, sooner or later.....I would pick sooner & let Christ be about the business of figuring out how he's going to handle it.

Israel gets to rule planet Earth, the Body of Christ gets sent to the outermost regions of the Universe to rule over rebellious angels. I think winging it around the celestial cosmos would be a lot more interesting.

Some interesting opinions, in my opinion

Some interesting opinions, in my opinion

[eaglesway]

LOL

[omantodd2000]

author=Molly link=topic=10956.msg147520#msg147520 date=1357250083]
Thanks, Paul.

What if you'd rather be on earth?

If you are an Israelite, maybe you'll get that choice someday, but not if you are in the Body of Christ.

I'm not a celestial type.

You will be, sooner or later.....I would pick sooner & let Christ be about the business of figuring out how he's going to handle it.

Israel gets to rule planet Earth, the Body of Christ gets sent to the outermost regions of the Universe to rule over rebellious angels. I think winging it around the celestial cosmos would be a lot more interesting.

Paul I think you should remember Heb 1:14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation? There are no rebel angles of God. Remember his will is done in Heaven as the lords prayer says.

[Paul L]

author=Molly link=topic=10956.msg147520#msg147520 date=1357250083]
Thanks, Paul.

What if you'd rather be on earth?

If you are an Israelite, maybe you'll get that choice someday, but not if you are in the Body of Christ.

I'm not a celestial type.

You will be, sooner or later.....I would pick sooner & let Christ be about the business of figuring out how he's going to handle it.

Israel gets to rule planet Earth, the Body of Christ gets sent to the outermost regions of the Universe to rule over rebellious angels. I think winging it around the celestial cosmos would be a lot more interesting.

Paul I think you should remember Heb 1:14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation? There are no rebel angles of God. Remember his will is done in Heaven as the lords prayer says.

According to Jude 1:6 there is a whole group of them who abandoned the position of being ministering spirits. The theme of the entire book of Jude dwells on the depravity of mankind, and as I read that book the source of it goes right back to verse 6.

These who left their "first estate" are not those whom I would consider spirits who are ministering to me, these are contentious spirits doing everything they can to oppress me, and you, the nation of Israel, and ultimately all of mankind whom they seek to destroy for reasons unbeknownst to us.   

[omantodd2000]

According to Jude 1:6 there is a whole group of them who abandoned the position of being ministering spirits. The theme of the entire book of Jude dwells on the depravity of mankind, and as I read that book the source of it goes right back to verse 6.

These who left their "first estate" are not those whom I would consider spirits who are ministering to me, these are contentious spirits doing everything they can to oppress me, and you, the nation of Israel, and ultimately all of mankind whom they seek to destroy for reasons unbeknownst to us.
[/quote]


Here is a link to a very good explanation of Jude that I read many years ago hope it helps you to understand it better.

http://www.wrestedscripture.com/b07satan/the_angels_that_sinned.html

[dajomaco]

[e]Yet the number of the Israelites
will be like the sand of the sea,
which cannot be measured or counted.
And in the place where they were told:
You are not My people,
they will be called: Sons of the living God.

[eaglesway]

According to Jude 1:6 there is a whole group of them who abandoned the position of being ministering spirits. The theme of the entire book of Jude dwells on the depravity of mankind, and as I read that book the source of it goes right back to verse 6.

These who left their "first estate" are not those whom I would consider spirits who are ministering to me, these are contentious spirits doing everything they can to oppress me, and you, the nation of Israel, and ultimately all of mankind whom they seek to destroy for reasons unbeknownst to us.

Good Post.


Also, Jude serves as a kind of an introduction to John's revelation. Satan falls from heaven. The Bride comes down out of heaven. This theme of leaving ones proper estate is given as an example to us, who are to be ministers of reconciliation.


Paul speaks to it,

For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching; or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness. Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good. Be devoted to one another in brotherly love; give preference to one another in honor;
(Rom 12:3-10)

Notice Paul says, "For through the grace given to me say...." He remains within his proper estate claiming no authority other than the grace manifesting by God's will through him.

His exhortation is that all the members abide within their proper estate towards one another, (mutually respecting among ourselves that EACH ONE HAS A MEASURE) explaining that this is the key to the proper functioning of the Body of Christ.

Peter speaks to it as well,

Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock. And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. You younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders; and all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE. Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you at the proper time,
(1Pe 5:1-6)

We are a kingdom of priests, ministering spirits sent into the world "as sheep led to slaughter all the day". In this dispensation Christ is redeeming the creation by sacrifice, but we all want to act like lions towards one another- leaving our proper estate, winding up in bondage, unable to function together in the Body of Christ as ministers of reconciliation.

Ironic isn't it?

[sheila]

well..there have been many 'spiritual" giants on the earth..and they continue to this day.  They Lord it over

congregations  instead of ministering and serving those who are to inherit salvation. Just think of

  the inquisition...the Taliban for a few examples.    Jim Jones etc.  these serve as examples.....overcome

by the prince of darkness they takes [churches] women..as many as they want.........they become richer and

more powerful....and rule over man to their harm. They devour widows houses[jw's have many widows who

leave their estates to 'the organization]" You see them asking for money on t.v...widows on soc sec pensions

who live in penury mail in money..all the while they live in shameless luxury.


  The true God rewards with more light,more truth,more understanding...these 'sons of God' take the way

of Balaam=curse man to eternal torture for money.  Jezebel churches[harlotry] that are betrothed to Christ

  commit spiritual adultery with these fallen sons of God...they bring forth bastards and reprobates spiritual

deforemed 'monsters'  unrighteous offspring[of which God seeks righteous offspring]

   Gog's crowd that fight against and surround the camp of the Holy city He loves. They themselves are

fallen and overcome..and they with adulterous eyes seek to take captive others into their warped doctrines.

   they tear off hooves..andthe sheep are like those skinned and thrown about when they are done with their

destructive  use of them..  They pillage and plunder.the flock of God.  The sheep do not belong to them..

but they in their presumptousness  Lord it over the flock of God and do not treat them with tenderness..

   You will find this typology/examples..in both the kings of the earth[governments that pillage their people

and religions]  Beasts,harlots,false prophets[Balaam] those that take the way of Cain..those that want to

rule over you to your harm...all the while declaring...I serve you..while they serve themselves.

  Look! when Israel wanted a king like the nations around them...they have rejected ME ,He said to Samuel

  they will...take...take..take..   Now...He who has the Legal right to the people..is about to TAKE WHAT IS

LAWFULLY HIS.   Ezekiel 28;17  Your heart became proud on account of your beauty,and you corrupted

your wisdom,because of your splendour. SO I THREW YOU TO THE EARTH[these preachers that accuse men

curse men for profit/satan the accusor that accuses them night and day before God] thrown out of heaven.

  You see..when Jesus died on the cross..the Lamb that takes away all their sins..legally removed the

rebuke of His peoplefrom off them...as new creatures to have an eternal celestial inheritance[token of spirit]

  they continue to slander celestial beings...pronouncing judgement and curses on those Christ removed

the account of sin for.  Who will condemn us..for which Christ died?  well plenty of fallen overcome men,

that's who. And so,satan knowing his time is short  brings great woe upon the earth[nation against nation

kingdom against kingdom] demonic maddness goes forth......deceiving those who did not believe that

Christ legally removed[blotted out] the charge of sin against man....Pharoah won't let go..new laws..to accuse

man by..to pillage and rob as he seeks rulership of the whole world.....New religions to kill and accuse

man by.

   the disciples were talking among themselves as to who should be the greatest among them,in the Kingdom of

Heaven. Jesus spoke to them..and told them that the servant of all would be the greatest among them.

  Look..the Branch..my servant shall act wisely...He took away the sin of all men....of all men He takes away

their sin.  Can a nation [all Israel] be born in a day? Yes......that Day on the Cross...All men were reckoned

in Christ..who tasted death for ALL men.  that some are overcome and do not know it..does that change

the fact of what Christ/God have done? No....each in his own order..according to the will of God..will enter

    Look! the harlots and tax-collectors[despized sinners] enter in ahead of you!

[sheila]

P.s.  if you are Born again from Above..you are a new creature..a celestial creature.  Fallen men[angels

with ministries of condemnation]will

slander and accuse those whom Christ/God have made spotless and free of wrinkles..  Michael said,

  "May the Lord rebuke you,satan" THE LORD,WHO HAS CHOSEN JERUSALEM,REBUKE YOU!

  IS THIS MAN Not A BURNING STICK[DEAD BRANCHES]SNATCHED FROM THE FIRE.

   The dead branches in Christ are snatched from the fire..their filthy clothes are removed...THEN HE SAID

TO JOSHUA....SEE   I  HAVE...TAKEN   AWAY   YOUR  SIN....and I will put rich garments on you[immortality]

  Put a clean turban on his head...=crown of truth and righteousness from God and Christ

[Paul L]

According to Jude 1:6 there is a whole group of them who abandoned the position of being ministering spirits. The theme of the entire book of Jude dwells on the depravity of mankind, and as I read that book the source of it goes right back to verse 6.

These who left their "first estate" are not those whom I would consider spirits who are ministering to me, these are contentious spirits doing everything they can to oppress me, and you, the nation of Israel, and ultimately all of mankind whom they seek to destroy for reasons unbeknownst to us.

Here is a link to a very good explanation of Jude that I read many years ago hope it helps you to understand it better.

http://www.wrestedscripture.com/b07satan/the_angels_that_sinned.html

The book of Enoch stuff I have no interest in. I do know that if demonic spirits can possess people & cause them to act with such unseemly conduct that it requires the spirit of Christ to dislodge their presence from within the host, then they do play a role in men's affairs. The site you linked to, seems to suggest rebellious spirits play a far smaller role than many Christian fundamentalists think they do.

I only know from reading about the acts of Christ in casting out demonic spirits, that indeed they play a role in the affairs of men, or they could never possess the bodies of human hosts. I have strong suspicions that UFO activity & appearances of the "grays" with their facial insect-like appearances may be part of this demonic activity, but I don't go around seeking them out because I'm looking for a thrill & need something to do with my spare time, so I actually don't care that much about it, or fictional tales about angels having sex with human women & creating "giants".

[ded2daworld]

It's for Christians and anyone that has an interest in the subject matter. As a guide all topics should have some kind of reference to UR or scripture in some way.
People will always state their opinions but tentmaker does not endorse anything extrabiblical including, aliens, UFO's, conspiracies, or so called "lost books" of the Bible. Members may state their opinion and we "let it go" the first time or two if it is contrary to or outside bible sripture. If it is continually brought up as an issue as if someone has an agenda or if they are seemingly trying to stir up dissension. That's when we as moderators will intervene.

[reFORMer]

Israel gets to rule planet Earth, the Body of Christ gets sent to the outermost regions of the Universe to rule over rebellious angels. I think winging it around the celestial cosmos would be a lot more interesting.

While regularly a part of dipSINsationalism, this, "Racial Jews ruling over the Earth and gentile Christians, that is, racially other nations ruling in the heavens" has never been accompanied by any scripture stating just such a thing.  I therefore refuse it.  Specially when God's purpose is understood, reversion to works of the flesh and carnal identities become obvious and cannot any more satisfy.  Let us not say this is the kingdom of God which is yet to come when we who have believed have already been partaking of the kingdom Jesus says is not of this present world system.  It is the Father, 13 "Who rescues us out of the jurisdiction of Darkness, and transports us into the kingdom of the Son of His love..." (Co 1¹³, Conc. Lit.)

It reminds me of a question that displays a problem raised by the racist aspect of the rapture doctrine, "If, as a believer, I am racially at least 51% directly descended from Abraham, will I be left behind at the rapture?"

Here is what God's written word actually says about all this:  14 For He is our Peace, Who makes both one, and razes the central wall of the barrier 15 (the enmity in His flesh), nullifying the law of precepts in decrees, that He should be creating the two, in Himself, into one new humanity, making peace; 16 and should be reconciling both in one body to God through the cross, killing the enmity in it." (Ep 2^14-16, Conc. Lit.)  This rebuilding of the partition which was torn down in the death of Christ is a central feature in dipSINsationalism. It is a reason to dislike such teaching.

A "New Man" has come forth.  It is constitutionally different from the Adam man.  It is of another substance than soil.  It is an immortal, a deathless life, begun now in spirit when we're born from above, with foretastes promising the full liberation that is coming even to our bodies.  In Christ, cultural, sexual, carnal, and these racist identities are no longer valid.  When controlled by the love of Christ we no longer know any man, not even Christ, after the flesh.  That's Bible, and you can take it to the bank!

[ded2daworld]

I'm with reformer on this one. In Christ, "there is no Jew or Greek slave or free"
and Paul said that if we are inChrist we are heirs to the promise made to the Jews and therefore descendants of Abraham.

[Paul L]

I'm with reformer on this one. In Christ, "there is no Jew or Greek slave or free"
and Paul said that if we are inChrist we are heirs to the promise made to the Jews and therefore descendants of Abraham.

......of course you do......it's called Hyper-Preterism......Replacement Theology..... anything that diminishes fulfillment of God's promises to national Israel. Two thirds of the Bible context is about God's promises to Israel, but you Preterists are so biased against Dispensationalism that Reformer can't even find the wherewithal to spell the word correctly.

[ded2daworld]

So no refutation of scripture - just an appeal to a doctrine made up by men?
...and calling us preterists? as though by seperating us into a group different than yours you can
dismiss what was said?
I've said many times before, no one has a corner on the truth, man or group, preterists are wrong on some things, dispensationalists are wrong on some things. I don't care what either group says.
What does scripture say?