Pre-trib

[eaglesway]

There will be a great falling away. There will also be a great martyrdom.....and that's one reason there will be a great falling away. I am not talking here about numbers. I am talking about purity and power. "Those who lead the may to righteousness will shine like the stars".."Those who know their God will be strong and do exploits". "And the Lord worked with them confirming the word with signs and wonders following"... And great grace was upon them all and the word of the Lord grew and multiplied and the Lord added daily to the church such as should be saved"

[Molly]

We are already seeing a great falling away.  Welcome to Chrislam.

But what will happen when the church finds out they've been lied to and are still here during the great tribulation?

[eaglesway]

I agree that the church will be a mid wife to Israel, but of course-as I have said, I see no verses that support a pre trib rapture, because of the timing of the "first resurrection" and that the "dead in Christ rise FIRST" I see it as impossible.

So I see the focus a bit differently than you do, more as the second coming and the mountain of the Lord being exalted above all the other mountains, which is (to me) Mt Zion and the heavenly Jerusalem of Hebrews 12, first-........else how else can the mid-wife wid-wife? :o)

I have a friend who used to say all the time, "If Jesus is going to 'present to Himself a Glorious Church, without spot, wrinkle or any such thing, but holy and without blemish', He is going to have to clean and press it some before He comes- THAT is what tribulation is for".

I agree with that perspective, so I see the first three and a half years of the tribulation as a time a great persecution of Christians(real spiritually birthed believers)and accompanying glory as they overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony. I see the second three and a half years as the time of the two witnesses and the man-child company(whatever that is however it manifests) and the trumpet and bowl judgments, IMO leading to a national repentence for natural Israel towards the end of the tribulation period.

The reason I believe it will occur near the end is the prophecy in Zechariah

And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
(Zec 12:3)

And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
(Zec 12:9-11)(Oh my God in Heaven that is so awesome!)

In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
(Zec 13:1-2)


Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
(Zec 13:7-9)



 
Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
(Zec 14:1-9)

The promises to natural Israel, as I said before(IMO) will occur as they are forced to turn to God -as all earthly help diminishes, and only the people of God- true spiritual Christians, reach out to them. Of course, if you believe the two witnesses are literal(as I do)- seeing them call down the bowl and the trumpet judgments will surely help the nation of Israel to see the glory of their old testament YHWH expressed in the gospel of Jesus.

[eaglesway]

We are already seeing a great falling away.  Welcome to Chrislam.

But what will happen when the church finds out they've been lied to and are still here during the great tribulation?

Well haha, I guess the same thing that will happen when they find out they were lied to about eternal torment and whatever other false teachings that are like worms in the meal these days--- They will get educated the hard way :o)

[reFORMer]

It is interesting to note the phrase "great tribulation" occurs 3 times in KJV N. T.; (Mt 24²¹, Rv 2²², Rv 7¹⁴) but, never in association with the number "seven" (7,) as in the phrase, "the seven year(s) great tribulation."

There are 4 tribulations I'm aware of in N.T. scripture:

(1.) There is the general tribulation that comes upon us living in the world:

"In the world you have affliction (KJV:  tribulation.)  But courage! I have conquered the world." (Jn 16³³, CLT)
"Through many afflictions (KJV:  much tribulation) must we be entering into the kingdom of God." (Ac 14²², CLT)

(2.) Then there was a great tribulation the Jews went through when Rome came against them and destroyed Jerusalem and the temple:

"...for then shall be great affliction (KJV:  great tribulation,) such as has not occurred from the beginning of the world till now; neither under any circumstances may be occurring." (Mt 24²¹, CLT)
(3.) There was also a great tribulation upon the early Christians.  The Roman Empire came against the Ecclesia in the first 300 years:

"And I have declared to him: "My lord, you are aware." And he said to me, "These are those coming out of the great affliction (KJV:  great tribulation.)  And they rinse their robes, and they whiten them in the blood of the Lambkin." (Rv 7¹⁴, CLT)

(4.) The only tribulation left is the one we are bringing when Jesus reigns through us by the glory He reveals in us. This tribulation is that of the day the wicked become ashes under our feet:

2 Th 1^6-10, CLT...
6 ...it is just of God to repay affliction (tribulation) to those afflicting (tribulating) you,
7 and to you who are being afflicted (tribulated,) ease, with us, at the unveiling of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful messengers,
8 in flaming fire, dealing out vengeance to those who are not acquainted with God and those who are not obeying the evangel of our Lord Jesus Christ --
9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength --
10 whenever He may be coming to be glorified in His saints and to be marveled at in all who believe[/u]

Since my previous post in this topic there are claimed references to "The Great Tribulation" about anywhere the words "tribulation" is used in the N.T. that have been posted here.  (I share again what I numbered with relevant verses quoted in reply #2.) 

I understand 4 tribulations to be referred to by the N.T. 

(1.) There is the general tribulation that comes upon us living in the world:
(2.) Then there was a great tribulation the Jews went through when Rome came against them and destroyed Jerusalem and the temple:
(3.) There was also a great tribulation upon the early Christians.  The Roman Empire came against the Ecclesia in the first 300 years:
(4.) The only tribulation left is the one we are bringing when Jesus reigns through us by the glory He reveals in us. This tribulation is that of the day the wicked become ashes under our feet:

The only "Great Tribulations" called "Great" in the N.T. have already happened:  that against the Jews (#2 above) and that against the early Christians (#3 above.)  Failure to distinguish defining features written to whom and when and ignorance of subsequent historical fulfillment has people mixing things that have already happened (not to happen again) together with things yet in our future.  There is no doubt wicked people will continue persecuting followers of Jesus as long and as much as they are able.  This general tribulation because we're in the world (#1 above) was very bad in the 20th Century under evil regimes like Hitler's, the Soviet Union, and Red China.  What the U.S.A. will have to suffer is yet to be seen.  But the tide has to change at some point.

It does seem clear that the one remaining future tribulation, a tribulation that has never occurred, is executed by Jesus, His powerful angels and His ecclesia upon the stubbornly wicked world at the time called, "...the unveiling of the Lord Jesus from heaven." (vs.7)  The unbelieving and disobedient will be dealt with forcibly to either get with the program or they are removed.  This time is described as, "...whenever He may be coming to be glorified in His saints and to be marveled at in all who believe" (vs.10, loc.cit., 1 Th 1^6-10)

I've mostly been under the impression during my lifetime that things will just get worse and worse until he returns and "shortens the days".   :Chinscratch:  Thanks for any further scrips to look at related to this.

That is what the dipSINsationalists teach.  Everything is getting worse and worse until the racially gentile church suddenly diappears and then the devil takes over and all hell breaks loose.  I've actually heard someone teaching this say, "Why polish brass on a sinking ship?"  This attitude was so prevalent from after WW2 until it began to be rejected in the beginning of the 80's that few Christians bothered with politics.  Only half of those who claim to be real Christians even vote and I'm certain this doctrine is a significant part of why.

How about the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in the Latter Rain will be more and more and better and better unto that perfect day?  IF NOT WHY NOT FROM THE SCRIPTURE PLEASE!!!

Does anybody else see a parallel here? a certain need for evil? like eternal torment has to be true because Universal Salvation is too good to be true!  So here, there just has to be a great tribulation upon the saints, including the Jews.  That the gradual dawning of the Millennial Age of Tabernacles wherein a generation (40 years) of Overcomers do just that, OVERCOME!!! is too good to be true...

[reFORMer]

And what Jerusalem and Zion does Hebrews 12 refer to? :o)

I don't believe in total perfection in this mortal frame. I am talking about a widespread worldwide "manifestation" or "unveiling" of the Body of Christ as the temple of the Lord on an epochal level on the order of the flood or the exodus or the first thirty years after the day of Pentecost only greater. The saints equipped for the work of service, clothed in white linen and whearing the full armor of God- laying down their lives in the service of the Lamb. Most of the believers among whom I fellowshipped in the "distant past" of the latter rain movement saw the "latter rain" as a great outpouring of the spirit, a fulfillment of ephesians four and romans 12 and 1 corinthians 12-14- not as earthly sinless perfection or fully manifested sons.
That was a small minority but they got a lot of attention so now it is difficult to talk about "sonship" "manchild" "overcomers" and the "latter rain"- but these are scriptural terms :o) describing "mature, spirit filled, on fire disciples walking as their master has trained and equipped them to walk "you shall tread on serpents and scorpions...."You shall receive power after that the Holy Spirit has come upon you and you shall be witness unto me"..... As Paul said, "I did not come to you with enticing words of man's wisdom but in a demonstration of the Spirit with power so that your faith might not rest upon the wisdom of men but upon the power of God".

When we see the raw power, magnificent love, exponentially multiplying grace and open spiritual battle between light and darkness of the book of Acts- we are seeing what the church "is supposed to be", or moreso, "is in the spirit". When the Bride "comes down out of heaven" it is the same as when Jesus the "bread of life that comes down out of heaven" in that "coming down out of heaven" simply means manifesting among men(Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven). The ecclesia of God is the "city set on a hill" and the 'Lamp set on the Lampstand" shining "light into the whole house".

We are seated in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, but we need the grace of God and the anointing of the Holy SPirit to "comedown of of heaven" as the "latter rain" so that we can be the light of the world.

Mat 5:14  Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

IMO,This is one of the major themes of John's revelation and few want to visit because of unbelief. The first three chapters are prophetic addresses to the church. Jesus is initially revealed by John as "walking among the Lampstands" and "holding the stars in His hand". He expresses the central theme of the revelation in the words, "Let the one who has ears to hear hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches".  IMO, The woman clothed with the sun(rev 12), the giant messenger(rev 10), the flying angel with the eternal gospel(Rev 8), the Bride coming down out of heaven(rev 20) IMO these are all pictures of the church of Jesus- a victorious church proclaiming a glorious gospel while suffering intense persecution- but overcoming by the word of their testimony, the blood of the Lamb, and loving not their lives unto the death.

From whence do the Spirit and the Bride say, "Come all you that are thirsty, drink freely of the water of life"....? From the temple of the living God, His church :o)

So, how about this?  The Latter Rain is the culminating outpouring of the Holy Spirit that brings Jesus' disciples into being mature Overcomers, walking even as He walked.  He must bring all of us, "we must all attain...unto a PERFECT MAN, the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ!" (Ep 4¹³)  "Who shall declare His generation?" a period of 40 years in which "[He] will take [us] one by one."  In this period more and more of us will enter more and more on into the transfiguration of our bodies until, "the dead go ahead of us in ascension," manifestly alive in glory greater than ordinary humans walk in, and "we which are alive and remain," not having already ascended, "will be seized, possessed (by God) together with them" who have changed.  We shall all come together into a unity in glory with God and it can nevermore be undone, "so shall we ever be...with the Lord."

The wicked will be changed or be removed.  This is what will become of the entire planet Earth.  This outpouring will continue "as in the days of Noah," until, "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of [the glory] of LORD, as the waters cover the sea." (Hab 2¹⁴, Is 11⁹)  He is going to take over in His saints and in the rest of the world through them.  His ecclesia is at the center of what is taking place according to the plan of God as we enter into the Sabbath Rest, the Millennial reign of the many-membered body of Christ entered into glory.

[reFORMer]

We are already seeing a great falling away.  Welcome to Chrislam.

"The great falling away" has also been translated as, "The great apostasy."  I understand this to have happened under the Institutions of Rome and the Eastern ritualists, during those centuries when these practitioners of gentile authority and perpetrators of traditional rather than scriptural doctrines, who blasphemously took the name of "The Church" unto themselves, had the upper hand over the spiritual people and the presence of Christ in them.  The Church was in captivity to Mystical Babylon.

[Molly]

Since my previous post in this topic there are claimed references to "The Great Tribulation" about anywhere the words "tribulation" is used in the N.T. that have been posted here.

Claimed references?

For myself, I'm talking about the tribulation that occurs before the return of Jesus at the end of the age.

Jesus refers directly to Daniel when he talks about this tribulation and the events that lead up to it.

Or do you not think that Jesus is literally returning?



3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


21 For then shall be great tribulation,  such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

---Mat 24



This is the great tribulation I am referring to, the one that happens leading up to his return as described in Mat 24.  It is also described in Luke 21 and Mark 13 and in the book of Daniel.



23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

--Luke 21



19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days

--Mark 13



And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

--Daniel 12



So it is a tribulation so great that nothing like it has ever been seen before, nor will ever be seen again. The Lord has to shorten those days or there would be no flesh left. He shortens them for the sake of the elect.

This is a one of a kind tribulation that will be shortened by the return of Jesus.

If you say this tribulation has already happened, then when did Jesus return?  And, was it worse than the Holocaust?  Or World War I?  Or World War II?  Because unless it was, it's the wrong tribulation.

[Molly]

"Who shall declare His generation?" a period of 40 years in which "[He] will take [us] one by one."  In this period more and more of us will enter more and more on into the transfiguration of our bodies until, "the dead go ahead of us in ascension," manifestly alive in glory greater than ordinary humans walk in, and "we which are alive and remain," not having already ascended, "will be seized, possessed (by God) together with them" who have changed.  We shall all come together into a unity in glory with God and it can nevermore be undone, "so shall we ever be...with the Lord."

I'm not sure what you are describing here.  Some kind of slow process that takes place over 40 years?  And, happens to believers one by one over that time period?
Transfigured bodies but no ascension?  Or a time delay for ascension? And, the dead are mingled in there somehow?   Where are you getting this?

[Molly]

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


--1 Thess 4

[micah7:9]

 "yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and "all the saints" with thee." Zec. 14:5
1Th 4:17  then "we..."
Are not "all the saints" in Zach. and "the we" in Thes. the same ALL? Does all mean all or not?
It sounds to me like those caught up to meet(apantēsis)the Lord in the air and return with Him is " all the saints and the we." That word meet(apantēsis) when used in several other places means to encounter and return with the one met. So it seems to me that all the saints, (alive or asleep) are caught up after the great tribulation to be with the Lord who is coming to earth.
Then the indignation and wrath, the day of the Lord comes to the unrighteous world.
Mat 24:29  "`And immediately after the tribulation" of those days, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken;
Mat 24:30  and "then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven;" and then shall all the tribes of the earth smite the breast, and they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory;

[micah7:9]

Since my previous post in this topic there are claimed references to "The Great Tribulation" about anywhere the words "tribulation" is used in the N.T. that have been posted here.

Claimed references?

For myself, I'm talking about the tribulation that occurs before the return of Jesus at the end of the age.

Jesus refers directly to Daniel when he talks about this tribulation and the events that lead up to it.

Or do you not think that Jesus is literally returning?



3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


21 For then shall be great tribulation,  such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

---Mat 24



This is the great tribulation I am referring to, the one that happens leading up to his return as described in Mat 24.  It is also described in Luke 21 and Mark 13 and in the book of Daniel.



23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

--Luke 21



19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days

--Mark 13



And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

--Daniel 12



So it is a tribulation so great that nothing like it has ever been seen before, nor will ever be seen again. The Lord has to shorten those days or there would be no flesh left. He shortens them for the sake of the elect.

This is a one of a kind tribulation that will be shortened by the return of Jesus.

If you say this tribulation has already happened, then when did Jesus return?  And, was it worse than the Holocaust?  Or World War I?  Or World War II?  Because unless it was, it's the wrong tribulation.

Good point. :dsunny:

[micah7:9]

I'm beginning to get the drift.