Pre-trib

[micah7:9]

I am wondering about the rapture thing. I understand there are 3 groups...pre...mid....and post tribbers. I'm just wondering if there is confusion as to what tribulation may perhaps be? My Bible seems to point to tribulation as part of "the walk," something that believers will and must go through.
It would seem pre-tribbers deny tribulation, wouldn't post tribbers more correct? Wondering?
I've given some examples.
Mat_24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat_24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Joh_16:33  These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Act_14:22  Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Rom_5:3  And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Rom_5:3  And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Rom_8:35  Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom_12:12  Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
2Co_1:4  Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
2Co_1:4  Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
2Co_7:4  Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation.
1Th_3:4  For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
Rev_1:9  I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev_2:9  I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Rev_7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

[Ross]

Hi;
2 Tim 2;1-4" Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him:
we ask you, brother, not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, ALLEGING that the day of the Lord has come.
Do not let anyone deceive you IN ANY WAY.
For that day WILL NOT COME unless apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.
He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God's sanctuary, pulicizing that he himself is God."

also

2 Tim 2;16--18 " But avoid irreverent, empty speech, for this will produce an even greater measure of godlessness. And their word will spread like gangrene, among whom are Hymenaeus and Philetus. They are deviated from the truth saying the resurrection has already taken place, and are overturning the faith of some."

[reFORMer]

It is interesting to note the phrase "great tribulation" occurs 3 times in KJV N. T.; (Mt 24²¹, Rv 2²², Rv 7¹⁴) but, never in association with the number "seven" (7,) as in the phrase, "the seven year(s) great tribulation."

There are 4 tribulations I'm aware of in N.T. scripture:

(1.) There is the general tribulation that comes upon us living in the world:

"In the world you have affliction (KJV:  tribulation.)  But courage! I have conquered the world." (Jn 16³³, CLT)
"Through many afflictions (KJV:  much tribulation) must we be entering into the kingdom of God." (Ac 14²², CLT)

(2.) Then there was a great tribulation the Jews went through when Rome came against them and destroyed Jerusalem and the temple:

"...for then shall be great affliction (KJV:  great tribulation,) such as has not occurred from the beginning of the world till now; neither under any circumstances may be occurring." (Mt 24²¹, CLT)

(3.) There was also a great tribulation upon the early Christians.  The Roman Empire came against the Ecclesia in the first 300 years:

"And I have declared to him: "My lord, you are aware." And he said to me, "These are those coming out of the great affliction (KJV:  great tribulation.)  And they rinse their robes, and they whiten them in the blood of the Lambkin." (Rv 7¹⁴, CLT)

(4.) The only tribulation left is the one we are bringing when Jesus reigns through us by the glory He reveals in us.  This tribulation is that of the day the wicked become ashes under our feet:

2 Th 1^3-10, CLT...
3 We ought to be thanking God always concerning you, brethren, according as it is meet; seeing that your faith is flourishing and the love of each one of you all for one another is increasing,
4 so that we ourselves glory in you in the ecclesias of God, for your endurance and faith in all your persecutions and the afflictions (tribulations) with which you are bearing --
5 a display of the just judging of God, to deem you worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering also,
6 if so be that it is just of God to repay affliction (tribulation) to those afflicting (tribulating) you,
7 and to you who are being afflicted (tribulated,) ease, with us, at the unveiling of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful messengers,
8 in flaming fire, dealing out vengeance to those who are not acquainted with God and those who are not obeying the evangel of our Lord Jesus Christ --
9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength --
10 whenever He may be coming to be glorified in His saints and to be marveled at in all who believe (seeing that our testimony to you was believed) in that day.

I was in a Christian bookstore a few years ago.  When I gave the above explanation, that the only remaining tribulation to yet be fulfilled was the one we, his manifesting sons are bringing to the world to execute justice upon the wicked, the proprietor, who believed in the Rapture doctrine, called the police, thinking she had antichrist in the building.

Preceded on the sixth day with the raising up of the image of God, The Manifestation of the Sons of God, for the transitioning into the seventh Day.  This day of rest, the Millennial Day, the Age of Tabernacles, is prefigured in the beginning of Genesis as being without an evening.  It is as Zechariah (14^{5, 7, 9}) says,

"Then the LORD your God will come, and all the holy ones with him...[7] And there shall be continuous day (it is known to the LORD), not day and not night, for at evening time there shall be light. [9] And the LORD will become king over all the earth; on that day the LORD will be one and his name one." (RSV)

Is there no period of darkness, no tribulation upon the saints before the coming dawn?  There are two plurals in Hebrew.  A simple plural and one that means "twin."  Notice that the verse (Is 30²⁵) where the 9/11 Equidistant Letter Sequencing (ELS) Code centers for the "twin towers" opens a wondrous passage on how God's wrath on the nations is a time of singing and dancing for us, a time of seriously celebrating the Lord's Feasts.  The Feast of Trumpets is at hand!  The coming tribulation of the wicked is the time of the healing and liberation of His holy people.  "The wise shall shine as the stars."  With the LORD's smiting the wicked, each blow beats out the time, "...with the music of tambourines and lyres." (vs. 32)

[25] On every lofty mountain and on every high hill there will be streams running with water on the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall. [26] The light of the moon will be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun will be seven times brighter, like the light of seven days, on the day the LORD binds up the fracture of His people and heals the bruise He has inflicted. [27] Behold, the name of the LORD comes from a remote place; Burning is His anger and dense is His smoke; His lips are filled with indignation And His tongue is like a consuming fire; [28] His breath is like an overflowing torrent, Which reaches to the neck, To shake the nations back and forth in a sieve, And to put in the jaws of the peoples the bridle which leads to ruin. [29] You will have songs as in the night when you keep the festival, And gladness of heart as when one marches to the sound of the flute, To go to the mountain of the LORD, to the Rock of Israel. [30] And the LORD will cause His voice of authority to be heard, And the descending of His arm to be seen in fierce anger, And in the flame of a consuming fire In cloudburst, downpour and hailstones. [31] For at the voice of the LORD Assyria will be terrified, When He strikes with the rod. [32] And every blow of the rod of punishment, Which the LORD will lay on him, Will be with the music of tambourines and lyres; And in battles, brandishing weapons, He will fight them. [33] For Topheth has long been ready, Indeed, it has been prepared for the king. He has made it deep and large, A pyre of fire with plenty of wood; The breath of the LORD, like a torrent of brimstone, sets it afire. (Is 30^25-33, NASB)

[sheila]

He desecrated Topheth,which was in the valley of Ben Hinnon,so no-one could use it to sacrifice

  his son or daughter in the fire to Molech.  God will not sacrifice His sons and daughters in the fire...

  but the evil tools...the wicked evil contrast teaching tool.

   the wicked will only have heaps of rubble when I cut off man from the face of the earth  Zephaniah ch 1

   
Zephaniah 3;20 At that time I will gather you; at that time I will bring you home.

   

[sheila]

when Haman entered the King asked him, 'What should be done for the man the King delights tyo honor?"

  Now,Haman thought to himself...'who would the King delight to honour more than me?"

  so he said,'have him bring a royal robe the king has worn,and a horse the king has ridden,

one with a royal crest on his head........'let them robe the man and lead him on the horse through

the city streets..proclaiming before him...'this is what is done for the man the King delights to honor!"

.....then Queen Ester answered, 'If I have found favour with you O'King,and if it pleases your majesty

    grant me my life,this is my petition. AND SPARE MY PEOPLE......

      FOR I AND MY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SOLD FOR DESTRUCTION AND SLAUGHTER..AND ANNIHILATION

    IF WE HAD MERELY BEEN SOLD AS MALE AND FEMALE SLAVES[good and evil exercize]

  I WOULD HAVE KEPT QUIET,BECAUSE NO SUCH DISTRESS WOULD JUSTIFY DISTURBING THE KING..

     

[sheila]

 going beyond the court of the gentiles..is the Beautiful Gate/Susan..there is a scupture of the

city of SUSA above it..

   SOS  How is your beloved better than others,most beautiful of women?

   Solomon had a vineyard in BAAL HAMON......Ezekiel 39;16  valley of Hamon Gog


    Jeremiah 19...for they have forsaken me and made this place of foreign gods..they have burned sacrifices

   ...and they ahve filled this place with innocent blood[took away all that sin in one day].They have built

  high places of Baal..to burn their sons in the fire as offering to Baal-something I did not command or mention

  nor did it enter my mind.....so beware the days are coming..when people will no longer call

  this place Topeth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom..But the Valley of the slaughter.


  Take along some of the elders of the people and of the preists...and go out to the valley of ben Hinnom

   NEAR THE ENTRANCE OF THE POTSHERD GATE[evil/good contrast..vessel of mercy/vessel of wrath]

    Each was to bring for it's fruit a thousand shekel of silver[this is all the fruit/when I take away all their sin]


   BUT MY OWN VINEYARD IS MINE TO GIVE.  THE THOUSAND SHEKELS ARE FOR YOU,O'SOLOMON

  AND TWO HUNDRED ARE FOR THOSE WHO TEND IT'S FRUIT

[sheila]

 now,Ester gave two Banquets for the King..and there are two meals served......

  there is the Great supper of the Lord..where the birds pick clean the valley of the slaughter/Gog's crowd..

  but can these bones live? Yes! And they are clothed anew.......with flesh of His flesh and bone of His bone.

  there is also the wedding supper of the Lord..and if you have on foreign apparel[no wedding garment/

foreign god/Baal/doctrines] you will be cast out of it.

   those who have ears to hear what the spirit is saying...'Hear Ye Him"

[micah7:9]

I am not very smart or just maybe not to quick but, Sheila what does your posts have to do with the rapture and tribulation? Maybe I just didn't read it proper.

[sheila]

everything,Micah

[micah7:9]

Okay, Sheila.

[micah7:9]

I don't see where the saints-believers are not to go through tribulation great or small. Does it not state that below....Immediately AFTER the [great] tribulation...?
Mat_24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat_24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

[ded2daworld]

Christians not going through the tribulation? IMO - wishful thinking
A rubbing off of the name it and claim it prosperity and health gospel...
me and mine and Jesus and to hell with everyone else. :sigh:

[eaglesway]

If, "the dead in Christ rise first"(first resurrection) and those who are alive and remaining follow(immediately) after and thus shall "ever be with the Lord"-and this occurs at "the coming of the Lord and our gathering together unto Him"  at the Last trumpet, for the trumpet shall sound and we shall be changed in a moment in a twinkling of an eye, immediatly aftr the tribulation of those days(for the trump shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible) -at the archangels shout.

If all these things are referring to the same thing, which, IMO, they are, since there is only one second coming and that is what causes the first resurrection (for when he appears we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is 1 Jn)

and if the first resurrection is at the second coming(His appearing) and the rest of the dead do not rise until the thousand years is over and that is the last resurrection, THEN HOW CAN THERE BE A PRE_TRIBULATION RAPTURE/RESURRECTION?

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure.
(1Jn 3:2-3)

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(1Co 15:51-52)



The dead in Christ rise first. It cannot occur until the son of perdition is revealed. It is a deception to believe that we who remain alive will precede the dead in Christ- BE NOT DECEIVED....REGARDING THE COMING OF THE LORD AND OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM, the day of the Lord will not come, as Ross posted earlier, until after the man of lawlessness is revealed- and by most opinions among those who believe in a literal end of days timeline- that does not occur until the mid point of the tribulation period- HOWEVER, it does not matter if you believe in the 7 year tribulation or not. The dead in christ rise first. That is the first resurrection. That is at the second coming, the glorious appearing of the Lord and our gathering together unto Him occurs AFTER IT.

IMO, That's the way I see it,  :2c:, do the math

[jabcat]

If, "the dead in Christ rise first"(first resurrection) and those who are alive and remaining follow(immediately) after and thus shall "ever be with the Lord"-and this occurs at "the coming of the Lord and our gathering together unto Him"  at the Last trumpet, for the trumpet shall sound and we shall be changed in a moment in a twinkling of an eye, immediatly aftr the tribulation of those days(for the trump shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible) at the archangels shout)

If all these things are referring to the same thing, which, IMO, they are since there is only one second coming and that is what causes the first resurrection (for when he appears we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is)

and if the first resurrection is at the second coming(His appearing) and the rest of the dead do not rise until the thousand years is over and that is the last resurrection, THEN HOW CAN THER BE A PRE_TRIBULATION RAPTURE/RESURRECTION?

The dead in Christ rise first. It cannot occur until the son of perdition is revealed. It is a deception to believe that we who remain alive will precede the dead in Christ- BE NOT DECEIVED....REGARDING THE COMING OF THE LORD AND OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM, the day of the Lord will not come, as Ross posted earlier, until after the man of lawlessness is revealed- and by most opinions among those who believe in a literal end of days timeline- that does not occur until the mid point of the tribulation period- HOWEVER, it does not matter if you believe in the 7 year tribulation or not. The dead in christ rise first. That is the first resurrection. That is at the second coming, the glorious appearing of the Lord and our gathering together unto Him occurs AFTER IT.

IMO, That's the way I see it,  :2c:, do the math

:thumbsup:  I've seen a couple of people who believe we're about half-way or almost half-way through.  Not sure.

[eaglesway]

Well, with the developments of late, the UN approval of a divided Jerusalem and a Palestinian state, it appears that we are getting close- but close could be 50 years IMO. As I have said, and I know I am in the minority on this :o), the main sign will be the restoration of the body of Christ, the "latter rain"-


Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month. And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil. And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you. And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed. And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
(Joe 2:23-32)

[jabcat]

Are you talking more about 1) a true "revival", maybe even for just a select few (overcomers?)?  As opposed to 2)  attaining total perfection and immortality prior to the Day of the Lord as some believe and describe as the "latter rain"? 

I personally believe the second option occurs when He returns as quoted in your prior post.    :2c:    I think there might be more scriptural evidence for the first option.   :dunno2:    Do you know of any other scrips besides the Joel one that addresses an "end time revival"?  I've heard people teach that, but personally just don't know of any more scrips besides Joel (not saying there's not).  I've mostly been under the impression during my lifetime that things will just get worse and worse until he returns and "shortens the days".   :Chinscratch:  Thanks for any further scrips to look at related to this.   

[Molly]

Well, with the developments of late, the UN approval of a divided Jerusalem and a Palestinian state, it appears that we are getting close- but close could be 50 years IMO. As I have said, and I know I am in the minority on this :o), the main sign will be the restoration of the body of Christ, the "latter rain"-


Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month. And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil. And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you. And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed. And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
(Joe 2:23-32)

This passage is describing the return of the Lord to save the Jews and Israel.

Notice the sun turned to darkness and the moon to blood.  That happens right before the return of Christ [Mat 24, Mk 13, Lk 21] also known as the great and terrible day of the Lord.

It's not so much a revival as describing the Jews turning to Christ at the end of the great tribulation.

[jabcat]

I did notice the Israel part, which seems very specific to the "Holy Land" - a restoration?   Hmm..

[eaglesway]

And what Jerusalem and Zion does Hebrews 12 refer to? :o)

I don't believe in total perfection in this mortal frame. I am talking about a widespread worldwide "manifestation" or "unveiling" of the Body of Christ as the temple of the Lord on an epochal level on the order of the flood or the exodus or the first thirty years after the day of Pentecost only greater. The saints equipped for the work of service, clothed in white linen and whearing the full armor of God- laying down their lives in the service of the Lamb. Most of the believers among whom I fellowshipped in the "distant past" of the latter rain movement saw the "latter rain" as a great outpouring of the spirit, a fulfillment of ephesians four and romans 12 and 1 corinthians 12-14- not as earthly sinless perfection or fully manifested sons.
That was a small minority but they got a lot of attention so now it is difficult to talk about "sonship" "manchild" "overcomers" and the "latter rain"- but these are scriptural terms :o) describing "mature, spirit filled, on fire disciples walking as their master has trained and equipped them to walk "you shall tread on serpents and scorpions...."You shall receive power after that the Holy Spirit has come upon you and you shall be witness unto me"..... As Paul said, "I did not come to you with enticing words of man's wisdom but in a demonstration of the Spirit with power so that your faith might not rest upon the wisdom of men but upon the power of God".

When we see the raw power, magnificent love, exponentially multiplying grace and open spiritual battle between light and darkness of the book of Acts- we are seeing what the church "is supposed to be", or moreso, "is in the spirit". When the Bride "comes down out of heaven" it is the same as when Jesus the "bread of life that comes down out of heaven" in that "coming down out of heaven" simply means manifesting among men(Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven). The ecclesia of God is the "city set on a hill" and the 'Lamp set on the Lampstand" shining "light into the whole house".

We are seated in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, but we need the grace of God and the anointing of the Holy SPirit to "comedown of of heaven" as the "latter rain" so that we can be the light of the world.

Mat 5:14  Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

IMO,This is one of the major themes of John's revelation and few want to visit because of unbelief. The first three chapters are prophetic addresses to the church. Jesus is initially revealed by John as "walking among the Lampstands" and "holding the stars in His hand". He expresses the central theme of the revelation in the words, "Let the one who has ears to hear hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches".  IMO, The woman clothed with the sun(rev 12), the giant messenger(rev 10), the flying angel with the eternal gospel(Rev 8), the Bride coming down out of heaven(rev 20) IMO these are all pictures of the church of Jesus- a victorious church proclaiming a glorious gospel while suffering intense persecution- but overcoming by the word of their testimony, the blood of the Lamb, and loving not their lives unto the death.

From whence do the Spirit and the Bride say, "Come all you that are thirsty, drink freely of the water of life"....? From the temple of the living God, His church :o)

[eaglesway]

Well, with the developments of late, the UN approval of a divided Jerusalem and a Palestinian state, it appears that we are getting close- but close could be 50 years IMO. As I have said, and I know I am in the minority on this :o), the main sign will be the restoration of the body of Christ, the "latter rain"-


Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month. And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil. And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you. And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed. And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
(Joe 2:23-32)

This passage is describing the return of the Lord to save the Jews and Israel.

Notice the sun turned to darkness and the moon to blood.  That happens right before the return of Christ [Mat 24, Mk 13, Lk 21] also known as the great and terrible day of the Lord.

It's not so much a revival as describing the Jews turning to Christ at the end of the great tribulation.

Peter preached those very verses on the day of Pentecost saying, "This is that which was spoken of by the prophet Joel". He was announcing the birth of the new creation in Christ Jesus, the bride, the church.

Pretty hard to miss the relationship.

The great and terrible day of the Lord is a universal term for times throughout history where the judgments of God manifest and great changes take place. Remember these very prophesies were first given about the IMPENDING INVASION OF ISRAEL BY ASSYRIA. The Lord comes in clouds and thick darkness and His judgments flash like lightning from His right hand says Haggai. If you look at all the uses of this terminology, including His(Mthew 24,25) description of the time when He will "Gather His elect from the four winds", which is "the coming of the Lord and our gathering together unto Him" in Thessalonians you see Jesus also said, "Moon will turn to blood and the sun will not give its light and the stars will fall from the heavens". This is not just reffering to the Jews, altho THAT IS A PART OF WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THAT TIME.....and WHY?   "I WILL MAKE YOU JEALOUS BY A PEOPLE OF A FOREIGN TONGUE AND STAMMERING SPEECH" and HOW? BECAUSE THE SPIriT OF THE LORD WILL BE UPON THEM! :o) 

[Molly]

And what Jerusalem and Zion does Hebrews 12 refer to? :o)

I don't believe in total perfection in this mortal frame. I am talking about a widespread worldwide "manifestation" or "unveiling" of the Body of Christ as the temple of the Lord on an epochal level on the order of the flood or the exodus or the first thirty years after the day of Pentecost only greater. The saints equipped for the work of service, clothed in white linen and whearing the full armor of God- laying down their lives in the service of the Lamb. Most of the believers among whom I fellowshipped in the "distant past" of the latter rain movement saw the "latter rain" as a great outpouring of the spirit, a fulfillment of ephesians four and romans 12 and 1 corinthians 12-14- not as earthly sinless perfection or fully manifested sons.
That was a small minority but they got a lot of attention so now it is difficult to talk about "sonship" "manchild" "overcomers" and the "latter rain"- but these are scriptural terms :o) describing "mature, spirit filled, on fire disciples walking as their master has trained and equipped them to walk "you shall tread on serpents and scorpions...."You shall receive power after that the Holy Spirit has come upon you and you shall be witness unto me"..... As Paul said, "I did not come to you with enticing words of man's wisdom but in a demonstration of the Spirit with power so that your faith might not rest upon the wisdom of men but upon the power of God".

When we see the raw power, magnificent love, exponentially multiplying grace and open spiritual battle between light and darkness of the book of Acts- we are seeing what the church "is supposed to be", or moreso, "is in the spirit". When the Bride "comes down out of heaven" it is the same as when Jesus the "bread of life that comes down out of heaven" in that "coming down out of heaven" simply means manifesting among men(Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven). The ecclesia of God is the "city set on a hill" and the 'Lamp set on the Lampstand" shining "light into the whole house".

We are seated in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, but we need the grace of God and the anointing of the Holy SPirit to "comedown of of heaven" as the "latter rain" so that we can be the light of the world.

Mat 5:14  Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

IMO, major  This is one of the themes of John's revelation and few want to visit because of unbelief. The first three chapters are prophetic addresses to the church. Jesus is initially revealed by John as "walking among the Lampstands" and "holding the stars in His hand". He expresses the central theme of the revelation in the words, "Let the one who has ears to hear hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches".  IMO, The woman clothed with the sun(rev 12), the giant messenger(rev 10), the flying angel with the eternal gospel(Rev 8), the Bride coming down out of heaven(rev 20) IMO these are all pictures of the church of Jesus- a victorious church proclaiming a glorious gospel while suffering intense persecution- but overcoming by the word of their testimony, the blood of the Lamb, and loving not their lives unto the death.

From whence do the Spirit and the Bride say, "Come all you that are thirsty, drink freely of the water of life"....? From the temple of the living God, His church :o)

well, but this Joel passage is talking to Zion.

And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.--Joel 2


He has already poured out his spirit on the house of Israel per the new covenant promised and is now pouring his spirit out on the house of Judah.  This is the deliverer Paul said would come to the Jews  in Rom 11.


26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

--Rom 11


And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.   --Joel 2

[eaglesway]

You have come to MT Zion and to the Heavenly Jerusalem and to myriads of angels, and unto the spirits of righteous men made perfect, and unto the general assembly of the first born registered in heaven........ Thats how the writer of Hebrews saw that. :o)

[Molly]

You have come to MT Zion and to the Heavenly Jerusalem and to myriads of angels, and unto the spirits of righteous men made perfect, and unto the general assembly of the first born registered in heaven........ Thats how the writer of Hebrews saw that. :o)

Yes, but, I think it's important to keep these passages straight from the point of view of the writer.   Yes there will be a great tribulation.  The church will be here during the tribulation. Yes we will be talking to the Jews about Jesus with stammering tongue because they will be going through Jacob's trouble.  After the tribulation the sun darkens and the moon turns to blood.  Then Jesus returns to rapture the church and to save the Jews and the country of Israel.

So all Israel will be saved.

Paul refers to the deliverer coming to Zion in Rom 11.  He says the Jews will be saved after the fulfillment of the Gentiles, which is after the great tribulation.  That's what's being described in Joel 2.

You are looking for a revival of the church?  Don't forget that Paul tells us the Antichrist will be revealed after a great falling away of the church.  Sounds like just the opposite to me.


I tell you, he will give justice to them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?"  LK 18:8

[eaglesway]

The writer is the Holy SPirit. Keeping it straight involves the mid-rash of the brethren and sistren ;o), which is what we are engaging in :o)

"To whom be the glory in the church in all generations unto the age of the ages"

The end times are about wheels within wheels. A lot of things are coming to a close and a lot of things will begin. The "Hal Lindsey" theological handbook is full of dispensational error IMO. God never finishes with the church. The church is being, "prepared", "finished", "adorned" for tasks and glories that go forward into the ages.

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together(jew and gentile) in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
(Eph 2:4-10)

One of those tasks is the restoration of natural Israel and it is the glory of God among the ecclesia that will bring them in.

I believe God is going to reduce the United States, which up to now has been a restraining force against anarchy and chaos, the tide swell of Anti Christ.

The resulting chaos in the world, as "lawlessness abounds" is already creating a power vaccuum and many forces are trying to fill it. As the "pillars of the earth" begin to shake, as God shakes every thing that can be shaken until only that which can not be shaken remains, the invisible body of Christ will become visible, and the enemy will try to stamp it out which will only cause the glory to fall upon it even more, rising upward in the upward call of God in Christ Jesus, toward the "mark of the prize" of the first resurrection.

What is Jesus returning for?

,That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
(Eph 5:27)

I don't see how anyone can really read the books of Ephesians and Revelations thoroughly and not see the prophetic impact of God's promises concerning the church- like it some side issue. IT IS A PRIMARY FOCUS OF THE WHOLE NEW TESTAMENT AND ALL THE PROMISES AND DOCTRINAL ISSUES OF THE EPISTLES, SECOND ONLY TO THE DIVINE NATURE OF JESUS- Who is DEFINED IN EPHESIANS AS....."Head over all things to the church, His body, the fulness of Him who fills all in all"(Eph 1)

At no time is there any verse anywhere that says the church will be gone and only Israel will be involved in the end times. Just this speculation, "he that restrains will restrain until he be take out of the way". This speculation exalts itself against all the prophecies of the mighty works the people of God will do and all of the martyrs who will fall DESPITE THE FACT THAT NO ONE CAN DO ANY OF THAT WITHOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THEM.

People want to "interpret" what they want to "interpret" and be "literal" where we want to be "literal". That gives us.....

Popcorn theology brewed in paperback books in the 60s and 70s.  :o)

[Molly]

At no time is there any verse anywhere that says the church will be gone and only Israel will be involved in the end times. Just this speculation, "he that restrains will restrain until he be take out of the way". This speculation exalts itself against all the prophecies of the mighty works the people of God will do and all of the martyrs who will fall DESPITE THE FACT THAT NO ONE CAN DO ANY OF THAT WITHOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THEM.

I tend to agree with you.  But, I also feel, per Romans 11, that the great tribulation, also called the time of Jacob's trouble, has to do with the Jews and bringing the Jews into the fold at the end of the age.   

That makes me think that the great tribulation is more about the Jews than about the church.    The church will be acting as a midwife to the Jews at that time, IMO.

So, yes, that will take great acts of faith and power and signs following.  But, the focus will be bringing the Jews into the new covenant.