Are the Wicked in Paradise?

[eaglesway]

author=eaglesway link=topic=10908.msg146717#msg146717 date=1356145258]

IMO The seven churches in revelation are protypes of churches existing in every generation since the the time John wrote until the time Jesus returns.

So, my query continues to be the sources of these opinions. There is absolutely zero in the Revelation text to support ages of the Christian church that I have ever been able to locate.

Flowery language about hidden pictures/types that communicate truths, is not  an approach that instills confidence in the minds of common sense driven people to follow that preacher to the jungles of Guyana. Jim Jones had an opinion, and look what it cost the people who followed his opinions.   

I agree with you about the ages of the christian church. I was saying that they are prototypes of churches, in general, in every generation. In other words- There have always been churches like the ones Jesus spoke to through John and there are churches like them today.

......but Christ is not talking to John about churches that once were........he is talking to John about ecclesias that exist as described in Rev 1:10-11....."on the Lord's day" to seven congregations in seven different cities in Asia. You're so hung up in the past with your "ages" that you're unable to see the future.

However I disagree with your characterization of the types and shadows in revelation as a very immature view of the word of prophecy. Let me give an example.

I haven't presented any "types and shadows in revelation" as you erroneously state, but if you want to go there:

Do you really think there will be a giant messenger(Rev 10) standing with one foot on the land and one foot on the sea with clothed in a cloud with his head in heaven surrounded by a rainbow?

Yep...........It is probably Michael, for it is he who is Israel's protectorate, Dan 12:1 Rev 12:7, 9. God's angelic messengers are very literal & real & he can make them any size it so suits him.

Do you really think there will be a woman clothed with the sun standing on the moon with twelve stars on her head and with a man-child about to come forth from her womb- or a dragon standing at ready to swallow the manchild with a flood?

Sure, unless evidence to the contrary can be presented. Do you have some text from scripture in support of it being symbolic? If you do, put it forth.

In the language of the prophets, with which you seem to be very unfamiliar,

..........this manner of strident language from you is why I would be recalcitrant to follow Preterists such as yourself into the jungles of Guyana or the Nazi death camps, I already know it's suicide & murder.

Do you really believe there is a giant building coming down out of heaven and that it is clothed in real physical white linen

You mean I shouldn't? Why is that?

All of these images are built of words from earlier writings. They are expressions of spiritual realities in the church of Jesus Christ.

When the Preterist inquisitors were stoking the bonfires around their bound & helpless victims, they too were mindful "of spiritual realities in the church of Jesus Christ", or maybe 900 people on a merry stroll behind Jim Jones into the jungle were thinking the same thing?

Yeah, keep going.........

Many of those images are expounded upon in Ephesians for instance.

The church is the woman  clothed with the sun(the fulness of Him who fills all in all Eph 1).

And what is the crown of 12 stars on her head symbolic of concerning the Christian church? I don't see that explained in Eph 1. The context of Rev 12 as well as old testament prophecies identify the woman as Israel, but I know that is anathema to Replacement Theology proffered by the Pope.

The giant messenger is the ONE NEW MAN is(Eph 2:15).

What is the "giant messenger" you're referring to? The one in Rev 10? That's Michael, not me, not you, or however manner you attempt to link scripture together which bear no relevance to one another.

The man-child is revealed in Ephesians 4, "until we all attain to the unity of the faith, unto a mature man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of the son of God".

The Bride in Ephesians 5, "Husbands, love your wives,

A "bride" is not a wife ("wives"). Look it up in Strong's Concordance.

Then there are overcomers, clad in the full armor of God in Ephesians 6. I don't want to debate or write a book about this- but the book of revelation is more than a collection of end time predictions by a long shot

Then why don't you make cogent connections between the two books. You couldn't even make a proper distinction between "bride" & "wives" with your digression. Based on that alone, why should I care what the Pope thinks about anything?

This is the language of John's revelation and it requires familiarity with the prophetic language of the whole of the scriptures to understand

.......and the places to start are the prophetic sections of the Old Testament.

Paul, neither you nor I cares what the Pope thinks about anything, it is inconsequential and without application to our discussion. You are welcome to the opinion that the giant messenger in Rev 10 is the archangel Michael, but is is by no means as clear as you present it by your say so, and there is no need for your aggressive attitude and condescension. Hitler's race and religion are meaningless. Pol Pot, Mao tse tung, Stalin,- were not Catholic but they were all great murderers of Christians and Jews alike.   Hitler was a murderer because he was a madman and an evil meglomaniac filled with the spirit of anti-Christ. I am not sure what your sore spot is, or what you think you are reacting to, but you could tone the rhetoric down a notch and everyone would be well-served.

[eaglesway]

Paul, Catholics are, for the most part, emphatically not Preterists. They believe in a future second coming. Preterists believe the second coming was already fulfilled, that all prophecy was fulfilled in the first century AD. I begin to see that your bugaboo is Replacement Theology.
Not everyone who believes that the church has replaced Israel is a Preterist. I personally do not think the church has replaced Israel. The promises of God to Israel are without repentance and they are beloved for the sake of the forefathers even tho they are enemies of our gospel- but that will change, for ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED.

The church has, IMO, transcended Israel, and is made up of Jews and Gentiles, with a Jewish root.


Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.
(Eph 2:11-22)

[eaglesway]

One of the greatest passages regarding ultimate universal reconciliation begins at the conclusion of three chapters of scripture explaining the dynamics of the plan of God regarding Jews and Gentiles.

But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS." From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
(Rom 11:13-36)

[ded2daworld]

Paul,
So how was Hitlers preterism supposed to contribute to the 6 million murders of the holocaust?

[reFORMer]

I've yet to meet a Catholic that isn't Preterist.....it's the cornerstone of the religion.

Very many Roman Catholics believe similar to you and others who post here because they watch the same dipSINsational televangelists.  Just try to locate someone on popular media (radio and television) teaching otherwise.  There are a few I know who don't speak directly to several of these matters the popular media overwhelmingly promulgate.  There are allusions in what they say, but they are for now not very public about it.  A couple of them even teach Ultimate Reconciliation, just not very openly.  I know of maybe three, the fourth is regional radio (R. C. Sproul in Florida, Covenant rather than dipSINsational,) but, unless you either write for one's product catalog (JoAnn Bunce, Niagara Ministries,) or know another's past (Lynn Hiles,) you'd probably not know them for it.  There's one lone, at least partial preterist, Jennings on "Truth in History" on Sunday a. m., Angel.  If you want deeper teaching you need to go to the internet. 

I've suggested previously two or three short books that have helped many to rise above dipSINsationalist views on near at hand prophetic issues.  I'll just offer one for now.  Read Bill Britton's booklet called "A Closer Look at the Rapture."  You can read it FREE at...

http://www.dimensionsoftruth.org/bill-britton/closer-look-at-rapture/

When there, click on these live links above Bill's picture.  They are chapters in the booklet.  The last two are called chapter 4 (maybe a misprint.)
   
    Noah's Ark by Bill Britton
    Day and Night by Bill Britton
    Sounding of the Trumpets by Bill Britton
    One Shall Be Taken by Bill Britton
    The Rapture of the Church -What is it? by Bill Britton

Go to the following and, for a donation, you can get it in hard copy...

http://www.billbrittonministries.com

Bill Britton Ministries/Church in Action
PO Box 707
Springfield MO 65801-0707 USA

Email: harness707@aol.com
Fax: 417-865-3191
Phone: 417-865-1075

(There's another free copy and messages at a site with the word "lighthouse" in its name.  I just don't have the time to relocate it at the moment.  WW would've known where that is.)

[sheila]

I believe it was Paul who dealed with some in the congregation that were headed erronously into the perspec-

tive.  So,you are already ruling without us?  It is an issue that needs to be addressed and scripturally

examined.

[sheila]

Hey Ded2

   Hitler was a catholic..who was going to purge the Kingdom on earth of devils[jews/assorted other types]

  and manifest Christ's 1000yr reign on the earth.  The Pope sits as a ruler for Christ Kingdom on earth.

    in lesser degrees I see this same thing manifested of 'pasters' preachers' that take headship away

  from Christ and the body of believers..and insert themselves as the authority/head..begin ruling

in Christ's stead[this results in a spiritual beheading of the body of believers]

[lomarah]

reF snd sheila  :thumbsup:

I'm on my phone but hopefully this link will still direct you to Bill Britton's writings at lighthouse library:

http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/searchdb.php?what=author&searchfor=|BRITTON,%20BILL|&type=&show=titles&showitems=

(If not I'll fix it later.)

Thanks reF, I didn't even know Bill's writings were on there, I've been reading his stuff on promiseed and was wondering where to find more. :)

I HIGHLY recommend reading Bill Britton!!

[ded2daworld]

I don't care if Hitler was jewish, catholic, protestant, whatever - we all know it was in name only just as our current leader professing christianity while saying the sweetest sound he's ever heard is the muslim call to prayer.

My question that still hasn't been answered is how in the world anyone can attribute a belief in preterism to the killing of the 6 million in the ovens during the war.

[sheila]

Matthew 11;12 and from the days of John the baptist until now, the kingdom of Heaven

suffereth violence,and the violent take it by force.

[micah7:9]

Bro. Bill loved him and wept for a week at his passing. Went to the convention to meet him but it was not to be. I probably have all Bro. Bill's writings, went through the Bible course and received my diploma, all of the tapes(boxes) all have ruined now. I sure did like listening to that brother, it was his booklets and tapes that really changed my study of the Bible. I requested trac's like "the Harness of the Lord" and passed them out from CA. (where I lived mainly) to WA. state. It was through Bro. Bill I learned much about Azuza, the Latter Rain, Geo. Warnock (The Feast of Tabernacles) Bro. Hawtin, Man just the mention of the man's name takes me back 40 years. I read "Treasures of the Snow" so many times I had to request new ones. I need to dig out those 2 big boxes full of booklets.  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

[Paul L]

Hey Ded2

   Hitler was a catholic..who was going to purge the Kingdom on earth of devils[jews/assorted other types]

  and manifest Christ's 1000yr reign on the earth.  The Pope sits as a ruler for Christ Kingdom on earth.

    in lesser degrees I see this same thing manifested of 'pasters' preachers' that take headship away

  from Christ and the body of believers..and insert themselves as the authority/head..begin ruling

in Christ's stead[this results in a spiritual beheading of the body of believers]

Eagle: Take note above.

Hitler did it in the name of Christ, with the complicit knowledge of the Preterist Pope........and that is the difference you won't be honest about.

[ded2daworld]

So as I understand it: Hitler kills 6 million. The pope is implicitly involved. The pope at the time may or may not be a preterist(Nothing said or written to prove one way or another) Since the pope that is implicitly preterist, implicitly approves of Hitlers actions, then Hitlers implicit preterism is responsible for the 6 million dead? Hitler doesn't say, "da debil made me do it" but "dat preterism made me do it"?  :dontknow:

[Molly]

We know the Pope signed a treaty with Hitler.  [The Vatican is a country].

Why he did this and turned a blind eye to the Holocaust--Paul is saying it has its roots in replacement theology--that the church replaced the Jews as the chosen people, and this somehow gives the Pope the moral ground to stand on and look aside while atrocities happen.  I think that is what Paul is saying.  I assume he's done research on it.

[ded2daworld]

I get that, but to me it's like saying the ten commandments were modified because "thou shalt not kill" was eliminated when the 6 million were. Even if the pope was preterist (which there was no proof of) why not just say the Pope killed the 6 million because the Catholic church was implicit with their treaty to save themselves. (I AM sure the pope was catholic at the time, there is some evidence of that) :laughing7:

[Molly]

I'm not sure what you're saying, D2, and I'm not trying to defend Paul's position because he is best at doing that.  But, the stance of the Catholic church should be well known--preterism or not--and Paul is claiming he knows what it is.  I haven't studied this myself, but I do know that everyone suffered under Hitler, including many Protestants, and even individual Catholic priests, who when push comes to shove, must do the dictates of their conscience, but the Catholic church as a whole came out of it unscathed.

The Pope apparently then helped many Nazi's to escape after the war with Vatican passports.  So I don't know.  Paul can flesh this out in greater detail.

The question for history is, Why?

[eaglesway]

Hey Ded2

   Hitler was a catholic..who was going to purge the Kingdom on earth of devils[jews/assorted other types]

  and manifest Christ's 1000yr reign on the earth.  The Pope sits as a ruler for Christ Kingdom on earth.

    in lesser degrees I see this same thing manifested of 'pasters' preachers' that take headship away

  from Christ and the body of believers..and insert themselves as the authority/head..begin ruling

in Christ's stead[this results in a spiritual beheading of the body of believers]

Eagle: Take note above.

Hitler did it in the name of Christ, with the complicit knowledge of the Preterist Pope........and that is the difference you won't be honest about.

I disagree.

Hitler did it in the name of Germany and Aryan supremacy and again, this is not about honesty, it is about opinions. I am not Catholic so I have nothing to defend. I just think you are wrong in the measure of degree in which you apportion blame for wickedness to a particular theological persuasion.

Any theology Hitler injected into his efforts was propaganda, because he was a mystic, a follower of ancient gods of war and powers of darkness- a prototype of the one to come

[Molly]

Hey Ded2

   Hitler was a catholic..who was going to purge the Kingdom on earth of devils[jews/assorted other types]

  and manifest Christ's 1000yr reign on the earth.  The Pope sits as a ruler for Christ Kingdom on earth.

    in lesser degrees I see this same thing manifested of 'pasters' preachers' that take headship away

  from Christ and the body of believers..and insert themselves as the authority/head..begin ruling

in Christ's stead[this results in a spiritual beheading of the body of believers]

Eagle: Take note above.

Hitler did it in the name of Christ, with the complicit knowledge of the Preterist Pope........and that is the difference you won't be honest about.

I disagree.

Hitler did it in the name of Germany and Aryan supremacy and again, this is not about honesty, it is about opinions. I am not Catholic so I have nothing to defend. I just think you are wrong in the measure of degree in which you apportion blame for wickedness to a particular theological persuasion.

Any theology Hitler injected into his efforts was propaganda, because he was a mystic, a follower of ancient gods of war and powers of darkness- a prototype of the one to come

I tend to agree.  I think Hitler was a Satanist.

But, the question remains, what's the Pope's excuse?

[sheila]

 ...the delusion is such that they kill you and think they do God a service.  good points all.....

   individual consciences acted accordingly.   I saw a video re;Hitler and occult connections with

a henchman[mandrake root was huge in the old film]   

[sheila]

   I think it was on the history channel.  on the ATS site there is a post from a lady that dwelled in Germany

  when Hitler rose..she wrote it as a warning to the usa.  Incremental conditioning.

   there are a lot of religions 'chomping at the bit' to ded2.may appreciate this.  I was out in service with

some elders in door to door..and they began speaking about when the governmenst fell  that they

would have power to put people to death/not just disfellowship them/like at present... 

[Molly]

yikes.  Are you talking about JW's?  :mshock:

[eaglesway]

The Pope needs no excuse. IMO, He is an icon of a false religion, not a servant of the righteousness of Christ. Why would anyone expect any different from the leader of the organization that is responsible for the deaths of so many saints over so many years?

[sheila]

yep........ there is no shortage of.power-hungry wouldbe rulers!!  Maybe it's the governments that restrain?

just an idea? In Jerusalem they had to go through the romans to get Him put to death..sedition was

  the charge.

[reFORMer]

I'm not sure, but didn't Germany's killing 6 million Jews and 7 million Christians (1.2 Christians for every Jew) basically remain a secret until their defeat when the Allies entered and found the death camps?  Only a few U.S. officials close to the end had become aware of the unspeakable atrocities perpetrated by the Nazi's.  Probably the Pope didn't know of that aspect of Hitler's society.  Also, I think it was only a well placed Cardinal and another RC official with helpers who were responsible for saving so many German fascist officials after the war.

[sheila]

  I think it was anybody that raised a voice of dissent. I read somewhere that the U.S brought in many

  of the intelligence group[scientist] for this country.

  loss of freedoms of press etc..government suppression/oppression..'covert' activities