Tentmaker Forum

Folks, I'm confused.  I had gone along for years, like some kind of Pollyanna, thinking that by the end of the Bible account, everything was solved, justified, sanctified, glorified, and copacetic.  In my SDA years, I believed that after Death and Hell [the grave] have been cast into the LoF, after the New Jerusalem has come down, all is right with the world, the universe, man and God.  Furthermore, the problem of sin and evil had been resolved, and the Great Controversy between God and Satan had been settled in God's favor.  However, among the descriptions of thrones, rivers, fruits, pearly gates, and transparent gold, I got a shock the other day.

My wife and I have been going to the local United Methodist Church, largely because she wanted a church with a choir she could sing in.  So the other night, I was sitting in a pew by myself, and to pass the time I opened up the pew Bible and read the last few chapters of the Revelation.

I'm going to quote from The Unvarnished New Testament here, as it's one of my faves.  Here is what threw me:

[from the end of Chapter 21]  "And her gates are never shut...and they shall come bringing the honor and glory of all nations to her.  But nothing shall enter her that is polluted, nor anyone who commits abominations and lies:  only those who are written in the Book of Life of the Lamb."

Is that simply rhetorical and for emphasis to a sinful world, or are such people still around outside the City?

[more, from Chapter 22]  "Fortunate are those who wash their garments so they will have the right to the Tree of Life and go through the gates into the city.  Out with the low dogs and the practicers of magic and the promiscuous and the murderers and the idol-worshipers and everyone who approves or practices lying."

What are we to make of this?  Are the wicked still around and only barred from entry into the New Jerusalem?  Are the hinterlands still in sin?? :dontknow: :dunno2: :dontknow:

Quoteauthor=Lazarus Short link=topic=10908.msg146329#msg146329 date=1355683403]
Folks, I'm confused.  I had gone along for years, like some kind of Pollyanna, thinking that by the end of the Bible account, everything was solved, justified, sanctified, glorified, and copacetic.  In my SDA years, I believed that after Death and Hell [the grave] have been cast into the LoF, after the New Jerusalem has come down, all is right with the world, the universe, man and God.  Furthermore, the problem of sin and evil had been resolved, and the Great Controversy between God and Satan had been settled in God's favor.  However, among the descriptions of thrones, rivers, fruits, pearly gates, and transparent gold, I got a shock the other day.

I'm going to quote from The Unvarnished New Testament here, as it's one of my faves.  Here is what threw me:

[from the end of Chapter 21]  "And her gates are never shut...and they shall come bringing the honor and glory of all nations to her.

Zech 8:22-The nations of the world in the New Jerusalem Age will seek the counsel of the Lord in Jerusalem, vs 23.

Even during the age the New Jerusalem has descended to the surface of earth, a lot of things remain to be fixed. For example even inside this city the population will age: "There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age, And the streets of the city shall be full of boys & girls playing in the streets thereof". Zech 8:4-5. Yes, even inside the city's borders the the residents continue to age & die, babies continue to be born to replace the aged after they have passed.......sobering thoughts these.

QuoteBut nothing shall enter her that is polluted, nor anyone who commits abominations and lies:  only those who are written in the Book of Life of the Lamb."

The permanant residents of the city are those of the Jewish nation whose names are written in the book of life, only they counsel the nations within the Court of the Gentiles how to be at one with God, Zech 8:23.   

QuoteIs that simply rhetorical and for emphasis to a sinful world, or are such people still around outside the City?

Yep, Zech 8:23. The nations are still in the learning process even during the age of the New Jerusalem.

Quote[more, from Chapter 22]  "Fortunate are those who wash their garments so they will have the right to the Tree of Life and go through the gates into the city.  Out with the low dogs and the practicers of magic and the promiscuous and the murderers and the idol-worshipers and everyone who approves or practices lying."

....and this is the reason the nations in the New Jerusalem Age "shall take hold out of alll the nations .....of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you:for we have heard that God is with you". Still a lot of flesh & blood people out in the world during the New Jerusalem Age who need to be converted.

QuoteWhat are we to make of this?  Are the wicked still around and only barred from entry into the New Jerusalem?  Are the hinterlands still in sin?? :dontknow: :dunno2: :dontknow:

......It's exactly the meaning of the context of the entire chapter of Zech 8. Also be cognizant of the fact that the building materials of the New Jerusalem are of elements that degrade with radioactivity, meaning that the New Jerusalem itself is not a permanant structure, it too will be replaced as the ages spoken of by the Apostle Paul continue to unfold.

OK, I read Zechariah 8 again, and it would make you think that maybe the New Jerusalem might exist during the 1000-year kingdom period.  Then, I checked Revelation again, the end of Chapter 20 and the beginning of Chapter 21 - here, the New Jerusalem comes down after the 1000 years are over, that is, if it is all chronological.  Back in Chapter 20 though, we read that after 1000 years, Satan is loosed, and his forces "surrounded the camps of the holy ones and their beloved city".

So, is this just a chronological problem?  Am I just confusing time periods - the 1000-year kingdom, when sin apparently still exists, and the eternal kingdom, when God is all-in-all (no more sin)?

Quoteauthor=Lazarus Short link=topic=10908.msg146336#msg146336 date=1355700789]

QuoteOK, I read Zechariah 8 again, and it would make you think that maybe the New Jerusalem might exist during the 1000-year kingdom period.  Then, I checked Revelation again, the end of Chapter 20 and the beginning of Chapter 21 - here, the New Jerusalem comes down after the 1000 years are over, that is, if it is all chronological.

The book of Revelation is the complete timeline for all the prophecies of the old testament. It commences with the very first day of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy, see Rev 1:10-11..........verse 10 "on the Lord's day...." is the exact moment in time the messages are read to the seven ecclesias inside the synagogues of the seven named cities.........from this point on you can follow every event in perfect chronology right into the age of the New Jerusalem, then the Bible goes blank.

QuoteBack in Chapter 20 though, we read that after 1000 years, Satan is loosed, and his forces "surrounded the camps of the holy ones and their beloved city".

This event occurs just prior to the age of the New Jerusalem, at the end of the millennium, this event is also described in Ezek chapters 38 & 39. Satan is the Chief Prince of Meshech & Tubal.

QuoteSo, is this just a chronological problem?

It only becomes a chronology problem when expositors try to equate the defeat of Gog & Magog at Hammon-gog at the end of the millennium within the same chronological context as the events leading up to Anti-Christ's defeat at Armageddon.

QuoteAm I just confusing time periods - the 1000-year kingdom, when sin apparently still exists, and the eternal kingdom, when God is all-in-all (no more sin)?

Take a few days & really, and I mean really study the book of Ezekiel. It is 95% about the purpose of the millennium, the regathering of the House of Israel back to the Land of Promise, this is the sole purpose of Christ's 1000 year reign. Peace & Goodwill among all peoples of all nations? Not a chance.....not until the New Jerusalem age begins.
[/quote]

And one of the seven messengers who have the seven bowls brimming with the last seven calamities came, and he speaks with me, saying, "Hither! I shall be showing you the bride, the wife of the Lambkin." (Revelation 21⁹, CLT)

Does anyone remember something called the bride?  We are members of Christ's body because God's Spirit makes its home in us.  His Spirit in union with our spirit constitutes us as His bride, His wife.  This Spiritual union of God with our spirit quickens to life our own spirit.  He uses our bodies as His own.  He quickens (makes to live) our mortal bodies.  For the spiritual war we are in our weapons are not carnal (of the flesh realm.)  So also, God is not married to a carnal city of rocks and metal.  It is a NEW Jerusalem.

God is our temple and conversely, we are being built into a spiritual house unto the Lord.  God builds with undressed stones, not bricks (which were used in Babel.)  We each are living stones in God's building.  The apostles are living stones of the New Jerusalem's foundation.  We are being built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets.  The Lord God Almighty and the little lamb is the temple of the city (vs. 22,) and conversely, we are also called God's temple.  His temple Adam humanity was taken to death when Christ Jesus, its anointed head, went down into death.  Whoever is baptized into Christ is baptized into His death.  The new humanity, homo novae, is this same Jesus, the resurrected and ascended Lord from heaven sent into us, dwelling in us.

In John's gospel (chpt. 14) we are called "mansions" by KJV translators.  The Greek is mon e' "abode" or REMAIN  In My Father's house are many abodes; yet if not I would have told you, for I am going to make ready a place for you.  And if I should be going and making ready a place for you, I am coming again and I will be taking you along to Myself, that where I am, you also may be. (John 14^2-3, CLT)

When we read a few words later Jesus makes clear for us today that He has received us unto Himself.  He has come to us,  to dwell in our mansions by the Spirit.  "I will not leave you bereaved; I am coming to you.  Still a little and the world is beholding Me no longer, yet you are beholding Me. Seeing that I am living, you also will be living.  In that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you..." (John 14^18-20, CLT)

Concerning this New Jerusalem seen in the spirit (vs. 10) it says, "And the nations shall be walking by means of its light..." (Revelation 14²⁴, CLT)  There is a Royal Priesthood that shall reign in all the earth. (cp., Revelation 5¹⁰)  We are of that stone which smote the image in the feet and ground it to powder, and that powder was blown away by the spirit, like the breeze blows away the chaff in the moonlight on the stones of the fall threshing floor.  We are of that stone and of the mountain the stone is yet becoming.  We are coming to fill the entire earth as this mountain, this kingdom.  Except for the spirit of the image with the head of gold, the world of those 4 Empires past after the coming forth of Christ the stone.  In the last couple of hundred years we are in the time of the 4 beasts described by Daniel and now in the time of the 4th beast, the United Nations.

Some want to rebuild the wall between Jew and Gentile that was torn down in Christ's death.  Now God has made of the twain ONE NEW MAN. *(see below)  Against this some teach there are two kinds of chosen people principally determined by racist means.  There are an "earthly" Jewish chosen, saved under the Mosaic Covenant (in spite of no blood sacrifices for 2,000 years and despite 95% of today's Jews not being racially descendants of Abraham.)  Then they say there is a racially Gentile (of the nations) "heavenly" Church saved under the New Covenant.  This doctrine (DipSINsationalism) extends to these terms concerning Christ's body and bride.  Certain terms are said to apply to what they call Jews, and others are assigned to racially Gentile Christians.

And I perceived the holy city, new Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God...(Revelation 21², CLT)  This is us, the Eclessia (the "called out,") who God, "hath raised up together, and made sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus..." (Ephesians 2⁶, KJV)  From this heaven we are descending into this earth to manifest the glory of Christ in every place.  It is as in the former covenant:  Moses had a heavenly vision in the mountain, descended to communicate it to Bezazleel, who was anointed to build in the earth according to the pattern of that heavenly vision and Aaron received it for the people.  Now the Prophet, Priest and King anointing is the inheritance granted unto all who believe into the name of the son of God, even the Lord Jesus Christ!

___________________________

* Ephesians 211-16, CLT...
11 Wherefore, remember that once you, the nations in flesh -- who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands --
12 that you were, in that era, apart from Christ, being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and guests of the promise covenants, having no expectation, and without God in the world.
13 Yet now, in Christ Jesus, you, who once are far off, are become near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He is our Peace, Who makes both one, and razes the central wall of the barrier
15 (the enmity in His flesh), nullifying the law of precepts in decrees, that He should be creating the two, in Himself, into one new humanity, making peace;
16 and should be reconciling both in one body to God through the cross, killing the enmity in it.

I believe the book of revelation is primarily "word pictures of spiritual reality". The word "apocalypse" means "unveiling". "The dogs and the sorcerers and everyone who loves and makes a lie" obviously refers to a time before all things are gathered into one in Christ(eph 1), and the last enemy is subjected and God becomes "all in all"(1Cor 15). So we have to determine for ourselves, IS GOD PRIMARILY SPEAKING TO US ABOUT A PHYSICAL CITY IN SOME TIME IN THE FUTURE OR UNVEILING US WHAT THE BRIDE IS BECOMING IN THESPIRIT.

I believe there are time prophesies in Revelation, but I think the deeper revelation is, "Let the one who has ears to hear ear what the Spirit says to the churches"

The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come, let everyone who thirsts drink freely of the water of life."

reFORMer, your post blows me away!  However, I believe the Body of Christ is a different entity than the Bride of Christ.  You don't marry your own body do you?  The identity of the Body is clear, but the identity of the Bride is mysterious.  Surely she will be revealed in due time.

Quoteauthor=eaglesway link=topic=10908.msg146363#msg146363 date=1355730045]

QuoteI believe the book of revelation is primarily "word pictures of spiritual reality".

So there is absolutely nothing substantive about the book? Just touchy, feel warm all over fuzzy stuff? Any book on Voodoo or Buddhism will give me that as well.

Quote......... but I think the deeper revelation is, "Let the one who has ears to hear ear what the Spirit says to the churches"

Who are these "churches" who are admonished to have "ears"?

Spiritual Reality is not substantive?  No, I think it is the here-and-now which is not substantive, and that is why so many martyrs have gone happily to their deaths for so many centuries.  Take a good look at Fox's Book of Martyrs.  Those dying people seems to have been aware of something that their tormentors missed...

If reality consists ONLY of things, then the spiritual is not real.
If reality consists ONLY of the spiritual, then all we see and we ourselves are illusion.

Are we physical beings that have a spiritual experience?
Are we spiritual beings having a  physical experience?
Are we both?

Why was Elisha able to see thousands of soldier angels waiting to fight while his helper saw nothing?
2 Kings 6:15-17
New Life Version (NLV)
15 The servant of the man of God got up early and went out. And he saw an army with horses and war-wagons around the city. The servant said to Elisha, "It is bad, sir! What should we do?" 16 He answered, "Do not be afraid. For those who are with us are more than those who are with them." 17 Then Elisha prayed and said, "O Lord, I pray, open his eyes, that he may see." And the Lord opened the servant's eyes, and he saw. He saw that the mountain was full of horses and war-wagons of fire all around Elisha.

T
HE BRIDE AND THE GROOM ARE ONE FLESH/ONE SPIRIT.. .THAT IS WHY JESUS CHRIST

  THE WORD OF GOD COME IN FLESH..[THE LITTLE CHILDREN WERE PARTAKERS OF FLESH AND BLOOD]

  ...   




     

 IF YOUR EYE CAUSE YE TO STUMBLE PLUCK IT OUT[SPEAKING ABOUT THIS MATERIAL/TERRESTIAL

  PHYSICAL REALM]  IT IS BETTER TO ENTER THE kINGDOM OF HEAVEN WITH ONE EYE[SPIRITUAL ONLY]

   SEEK YE FIRST THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN[SPIRITUAL] THESE OTHER THINGS SHALL BE ADDED AS YOU NEED

THEM[ANY MATERIAL EARTHLY THINGS MANIFESTED AS GOD SEES FIT]

THERE ARE TERRESTIAL EARS AND CELESTIAL EARS...AND GOD THE CREATOR FORMS THEM BOTH

  PHYSICAL EYES AND SPIRITUAL EYES.  TWO MEN WILL BE ASLEEP IN A BED..ONE WILL BE TAKEN

  AND THE OTHER LEFT BEHIND.....TWO WOMEN AT THE HAND MILL,ONE TAKEN AND ONE LEFT BEHIND

Quote from: Paul L on December 17, 2012, 04:05:34 PM

Quoteauthor=eaglesway link=topic=10908.msg146363#msg146363 date=1355730045]

QuoteI believe the book of revelation is primarily "word pictures of spiritual reality".

So there is absolutely nothing substantive about the book? Just touchy, feel warm all over fuzzy stuff? Any book on Voodoo or Buddhism will give me that as well.

Quote......... but I think the deeper revelation is, "Let the one who has ears to hear ear what the Spirit says to the churches"

Who are these "churches" who are admonished to have "ears"?

If you have ears to hear, Hear- whoever has ears! But many have "inner ear" infections :o)

Be careful how you hear for to the one who has(hearing ears) more shall be given, to the one who has not(hearing ears) even that which he has(from that which he received when he had hearing ears, before he was deafened by arrogance and stubbornness) will be taken away.

In the revelation of John it is the churches(meaning all of the assemblies of the ecclesia of God and all the members of the "great assembly, i.e.universal body of Christ) unto whom Jesus is speaking, "Hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches"

But also, through the revelation of John, the Spirit and the Bride(universal church) are speaking to anyone who is thirsty, "COME!!!, DRINK FREELY of the WATER OF LIFE"

Quoteauthor=eaglesway link=topic=10908.msg146416#msg146416 date=1355792505]

QuoteI believe the book of revelation is primarily "word pictures of spiritual reality".

So there is absolutely nothing substantive about the book? Just touchy, feel warm all over fuzzy stuff? Any book on Voodoo or Buddhism will give me that as well.

Quote......... but I think the deeper revelation is, "Let the one who has ears to hear ear what the Spirit says to the churches"

QuoteWho are these "churches" who are admonished to have "ears"?

QuoteIn the revelation of John it is the churches(meaning all of the assemblies of the ecclesia of God and all the members of the "great assembly, i.e.universal body of Christ) unto whom Jesus is speaking, "Hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches"

But also, through the revelation of John, the Spirit and the Bride(universal church) are speaking to anyone who is thirsty, "COME!!!, DRINK FREELY of the WATER OF LIFE"

Where do I find any of this in from the mouth of Christ to the ears of John the Revelator?

Rev 1:4 "John to the seven churches (ecclesias) which are in Asia....."

Nothing here about "bride", universal church", "anyone who is thirsty", "water of life". Only a simple declaration by Christ to get messages to seven congregations as designated in verse 11.

The Bible is a textbook, with a perfectly designated timeline for orders of events. Reading it in the haphazard manner you suggest is why my colleagues in the scientific community laugh at the aggregate confusion Christian eschatology revels  in. It's the creation of self serving contradictions exposited by these kinds of superfluous explanations which convinces the unbeliever that Christians are just crackpots.  Not your intent is it?

Replacement Theology has long been a repository trapping well meaning Christians into untenable positions.

How do you prove to a Buddhist that the book of Revelation is not a book written to seven end-time congregations on the day as stated in Rev 1:10-11? The Buddhist will look you square in the eye and declare: "Don't you even believe the plain words of your own holy book, and you're trying to convert me?

Buddhists aren't into historicity anyway, so the chronology and history and prophecy of the Bible would tend to sound irrelevant to them. 

REV 22;17 THE SPIRIT AND THE BRIDE SAY 'COME!. AND WHOEVER HEARS LET HIM SAY 'COME'

WHOEVER IS THIRSTY LET HIM COME AND WHOEVER WISHES,LET HIM TAKE THE FREE GIFT

  OF THE WATER OF LIFE

   

Quote from: Paul L on December 18, 2012, 03:47:43 AM

Quoteauthor=eaglesway link=topic=10908.msg146416#msg146416 date=1355792505]

QuoteI believe the book of revelation is primarily "word pictures of spiritual reality".

So there is absolutely nothing substantive about the book? Just touchy, feel warm all over fuzzy stuff? Any book on Voodoo or Buddhism will give me that as well.

Quote......... but I think the deeper revelation is, "Let the one who has ears to hear ear what the Spirit says to the churches"

QuoteWho are these "churches" who are admonished to have "ears"?

QuoteIn the revelation of John it is the churches(meaning all of the assemblies of the ecclesia of God and all the members of the "great assembly, i.e.universal body of Christ) unto whom Jesus is speaking, "Hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches"

But also, through the revelation of John, the Spirit and the Bride(universal church) are speaking to anyone who is thirsty, "COME!!!, DRINK FREELY of the WATER OF LIFE"

Where do I find any of this in from the mouth of Christ to the ears of John the Revelator?

Rev 1:4 "John to the seven churches (ecclesias) which are in Asia....."

Nothing here about "bride", universal church", "anyone who is thirsty", "water of life". Only a simple declaration by Christ to get messages to seven congregations as designated in verse 11.

The Bible is a textbook, with a perfectly designated timeline for orders of events. Reading it in the haphazard manner you suggest is why my colleagues in the scientific community laugh at the aggregate confusion Christian eschatology revels  in. It's the creation of self serving contradictions exposited by these kinds of superfluous explanations which convinces the unbeliever that Christians are just crackpots.  Not your intent is it?

Replacement Theology has long been a repository trapping well meaning Christians into untenable positions.

How do you prove to a Buddhist that the book of Revelation is not a book written to seven end-time congregations on the day as stated in Rev 1:10-11? The Buddhist will look you square in the eye and declare: "Don't you even believe the plain words of your own holy book, and you're trying to convert me?

Well, superfluity is in the eye of the beholder. The revelation of John is much more than historic prophesy- altho I agree it does contain historic prophesy in it. When you compare the word pictures of the OT prophets with the revelation Jesus Christ gave to John, I can hardly imagine how you could fail to find substance in it. The whole thing is filled with fulfilled prophetic images from previous writings (OT & NT) including spiritual keys to unlock hidden spiritual realities for the church in all the ages whether read in 112 AD 1012 AD or 2012 AD- otherwise it was quite useless until now :o)

And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
(Rev 22:10)


And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.
(Mat 26:18)

The time was at hand then when it was spoken, not just now that we fancy ourselves to be at the end of the age. It has been vibrantly illuminating the truths of the "ecclesia of God" and their mission(UR) and their relationship with the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" since it was first delivered to the churches.

I also don't necessarily care if the spiritual messages of the revelation turn off a few "scientists". They might just as likely be reached by the beauty of the spirit revealed in those pictures, as by some regimented chronological interpretation anyway.

The revelation of John is most definitely NOT chronological in my opinion. It is more like a wagon wheel, with the hub being the second advent(Rev 6, Rev 11, Rev 19)  and a series of spokes being a number of simultaneously occurring sequences of events leading up to that blessed consummation of the ages.

Quote from: Lazarus Short on December 17, 2012, 04:01:43 PM
I believe the Body of Christ is a different entity than the Bride of Christ.  You don't marry your own body do you?  The identity of the Body is clear, but the identity of the Bride is mysterious.  Surely she will be revealed in due time.

The little lamb is an animal explaining the flesh aspect of Jesus.  "...the wedding dinner of the Lambkin..." (Rv 19⁹, CLT) is the celebration of our experiencing God transforming the vile body of our humiliation "to conform it to the body of His glory" in the beginning of the time of the fulfillment of the feast of Tabernacles.  Perhaps this is a reference to the entire Millennial age.  This change is, "...in accord with the operation which enables Him even to subject all to Himself." (Php 3²¹, CLT)  He is not only able, but willing and able and sure "to subject all to Himself."  It must occur even as He has declared.

"Spirit," ruah in Hebrew and pneuma in Greek, is feminine in both cases.  The bride is the human spirits in union with the Spirit of God.  In our relationship of spiritual union with God He is the Husband and we are the wife.

Because of this spiritual intercourse occurring in the tabernacles of our flesh, these "tents" God regards as members of His physical body.  From this union there is conceived in their shared body what is yet to be born:  the "manchild," the body caught up, transfigured and glorified.

In the parable where the man at the wedding feast without a wedding garment gets thrown out of the party because of that lack, possibly of an immortal body, those who teach eternal torment claim his condition in judgement was permanent.  "Then the king said to the servants, 'Binding his feet and hands, cast him out into outer darkness.' There shall be lamentation and gnashing of teeth.  For many are the called, yet few are the chosen."  (Mt 2213-14, CLT)  I was told gnashing of the teeth in outer darkness was to happen endlessly without ceasing and this was for most people.  I offer that, after the festivities, the master will go out and see if His friend was improving, if the discipline was having an effect.  Maybe He loosens the feet so travel out of the darkness can be possible.  Too bad the Marriage Reception was missed; but, the marriage itself will go on for ever.

I believe the Bride, the Body, the Temple are all perspectives of one thing- the body of members, the temple of living stones, the bride- for the purpose of bearing the manchild- see Ephesians 4.  Until we all attain to the unity of the faith, unto a mature man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.

the man-child gestates within the womb of the Bride.

That womb(Bride) is equal to the Holy of Holies(Temple) where the spirit descends between the cherubim and the rod buds and the hidden manna awaits. The members(Body) are the preisthood(Romans 12:1-3) performing service as led by the Head who is over all things.

In Ephesians 1 Jesus is described as Head over all things to the church, His Body, the fulness of Him who fills all in all.

In Hebrews 12 .....But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
(Heb 12:22-24)

If the church is the Body and the church is the Bride, the New Jerusalem.......

And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
(Rev 21:9-10)

i SEE THE BODY OF CHRIST AS THE 'WORD OF GOD' COME IN FLESH..BREAD FROM HEAVEN..

AND I SEE THE BRIDE AS THE SPIRIT IN UNION WITH THE 2WORD..PRODUCING RIGHTEOUS

  OFFSPRING=CHILDREN OF WISDOM/UNDERSTANDING..BORN FROM ABOVE....


  BRIDE[THE HIDDEN ONE] AS HIDDEN MANNA=I HAVE MANY THINGS YET TO SAY TO YOU

THAT YOU CAN NOT BEAR AT PRESENT[MANCHILD]


    JESUS AS THE WORD OF GOD COME IN FLESH..CONCEIVED OF A VIRGIN/HOLY SPIRIT...........

  PRESENTED AS THE WORD OF GOD THAT TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD/MISSING THE

  MARK/HIGHNESS OF THE CALLING OF GOD[THOUGHTS OF GOD]  DESCENDS INTO THE JORDAN

   [DEATH VANITY[MY WORD WILL NOT RETURN VOID]...   THE HOLY SPIRIT THEN DESCENDING

  LIKE A DOVE AND REMAINING ON HIM[FAITH HOPE AND LOVE REMAINS=RESURRECTION/REMNANT


  AS CHRIST IS UNVEILED/REVELATION..SO,TOO THE HIDDEN ONE[BRIDE IN CHRIST REVEALED]

   FALSE PROPHETS[INTERPRETATIONS] DESTROYED..BEASTS[CARNAL UNDERSTANDING] SLAUGHTERED


PROVERBS 9 WISDOMS BANQUET[WEDDING SUPPER] WISDOM FROM ABOVE...SONGOF SONGS

   THE GRANTING OF HER TO BE FREE FROM SPOT OR BLEMISHES/WRINKLES=PREPARED HERSELF

SANCTIFICATION OF TRUTH[EZEKIEL 16;6- SEE THE THINGS FATHER DID FOR HIS WIFE]


  MATURITY OF THE BRIDE WITH GROWTH TO RECEIVE LOVE'S EXPRESSION'S AND BEAR RIGHTEOUS

OFFSPRING.  AS A HUSBAND WILL LAY HIS LIFE DOWN FOR HIS WIFE..A WOMAN WILL FOR HER CHILDREN

THERE IS NO LOVE STRONGER [INTENSE] ONLY INTENSITY OF LOVE IS STRONGER THAN DEATH


      PLACE ME LIKE A SEAL OVER YOUR HEART[SEALED FOUNTAIN]LIKE A SEAL ON YOUR ARM

   FOR LOVE IS AS STRONG AS DEATH,IT'S JEALOUSY UNYIELDING LIKE THE GRAVE

  IT BURNS LIKE BLAZING FIRE[WERE OUR HEARTS NOT BURNING WHEN HE OPENED UP

THE SCRIPTURES] LIKE A MIGHTY FLAME. MANY WATERS CAN NOT QUENCH LOVE,RIVERS

CAN NOT WASH IT AWAY[THEN FROM HIS MOUTH THE DRAGON SPEWED WATER LIKE A RIVER

TO TRY AND SWEEP HER AWAY]... 1 PETER 1;22....LOVE ONE ANOTHER INTENSELY

In answer to the post, "Are the wicked in paradise?" No.
Heb 9:27  and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
Heb 9:28  so also the Christ, once having been offered to bear the sins of many, a second time, apart from a sin-offering, shall appear, to those waiting for him--to salvation!


Ecc 3:19  For an event is to the sons of man, and an event is to the beasts, even one event is to them; as the death of this, so is the death of that; and one spirit is to all, and the advantage of man above the beast is nothing, for the whole is vanity.
Ecc 3:20  The whole are going unto one place, the whole have been from the dust, and the whole are turning back unto the dust.
Ecc 3:21  Who knoweth the spirit of the sons of man that is going up on high, and the spirit of the beast that is going down below to the earth?
Ecc 9:5  For the living know that they die, and the dead know not anything, and there is no more to them a reward, for their remembrance hath been forgotten.
Ecc 9:6  Their love also, their hatred also, their envy also, hath already perished, and they have no more a portion to the age in all that hath been done under the sun.

Quote from: Paul L on December 18, 2012, 03:47:43 AM

The Bible is a textbook, with a perfectly designated timeline for orders of events. Reading it in the haphazard manner you suggest is why my colleagues in the scientific community laugh at the aggregate confusion Christian eschatology revels  in. It's the creation of self serving contradictions exposited by these kinds of superfluous explanations which convinces the unbeliever that Christians are just crackpots.  Not your intent is it?

Most people won't read scripture, haphazard or otherwise.  I think it is in Lamentations that, "The man of spirit is considered mad."  This will not change until the rest are brought on in to that grace wherein we stand.  In a recent dream I saw two scenes.  One was I was getting and changing clothes, even in the middle of the day, to fit "in," much like everyone else.  So I know this isn't about literal clothes.  The next scene there were some at the first going my way who motioned in turn for the others going the opposite direction to come along with us.  The people, who were going in the opposite direction I was going, dressed in the ordinary clothes I'd seen in the first scene, were motioning for me to go along with them and some became angry and hateful that I didn't.  I seemed to them rather similar to the character of Larry Finkelstein in the sitcom "Dharma," the name of Larry's daughter, only I was "spiritual," a Jesus freak.  I was praying, which the world sees as only talking to myself.  I was dressed in tunic and pants of natural white linen, with my arms outstretched, palms up, beckoning God that He and I might walk together.
___________________________

Certainly on such elevated persons as comprise the Scientific Community dipSINsationalism will have an effect opposite of generating faith in Jesus and His words.  Jesus throughout His ministry proclaimed a near at hand kingdom of God and Himself as God's anointed over it.  This was taught in His Olivet discourse.  DipSINsationalists say this kingdom was only an offer and it was withdrawn according to their Postponement Theory.  Bultmann, who went on to become a very unbelieving professional theologian, was so affected by dipSINsational ways of thinking he believed Jesus was wrong because the earthly kingdom did not materialize.  He spoke of Jesus being deceived by His own noumena.  Of course this problem disappears when it is understood the kingdom came in the Holy Ghost infilling us and the proof was as Jesus said of the seven signs in Matthew twenty-four, "This generation shall not pass until all these signs taken together are fulfilled."  The culmination of His prophecies was the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, approximately two years short of a generation's forty.
___________________________

As an example of order, the book of Revelation is divided in twain near the end of chapter eleven.  As one proceeds in both directions away from the middle there are corresponding ideas opposite one another, just as an arm on one side of the body is echoed with an arm in a corresponding place on the opposite side of the body.  The Word is Christ and the scripture reveals the Adamic man homo sapiens, "soilish" and "a living soul," changed into the new man homo novae, even "the Lord from heaven."  Scripture even in it's architecture reflects God's man.  I think this arrangement is why A. E. Knoch called the outlines he made "skeletons," tho' he may have gotten that term from someone else.  Much the same are the truly wonderful (and only to be compared with Knoch's) outlines in the margins of The Companion Bible (KJV) by Bullinger.  These two were friends until Knoch got onto the the fact of, "The living God, Who is the savior of all mankind, specially those that believe."

Quote from: Paul L on December 18, 2012, 03:47:43 AM

Replacement Theology has long been a repository trapping well meaning Christians into untenable positions.

I tend to consider the people united with and representing Institutional Christianity as that Mystery Babylon to which John refers.  I certainly am under no obligation to believe or behave in line with what they promote as orthodoxy or orthopraxy.  Yet we should recognize that recently it has been popular to call "Replacement Theology" what history reveals was the theological position in so many churches for thousands of years.  This phrase "Replacement Theology" is meant to mean we are anti-Semitic if we don't go along with the error of dipSINsationalism, which is a lying slander.

What does it sound like to you when Jesus says, "The kingdom shall be taken from you and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." (Mt 31⁴³, KJV)  "They are being replaced" naturally comes to mind.  The truth for most of us it is not a replacement, but a doctrine of God unfolding an advanced meaning that was in His original thought.  It is the next step up from what went before, a continuum where the ancient root sustains our more recent grafting in.  It is the mockers lie to call it replacement.  It has always been, "Not all are Israel that are of Israel." (Rm 9)  There is no going back to the typical Israel and its cultus, but we are going on into a farther fulfillment of it.  The substance casting the shadows throughout the Hebrew Scriptures arrived in the person of Jesus, the Messiah, and His many-membered body, the Ecclesia.  While this superseded the religion of the ancient saints upon which it was built, nothing can supersede the revelation of the sons of God.

"The dead and broken off branches," dipSINsationalists say are not dead nor broken off.  The truth is the "wicked husbandmen" were cast out of God's Vineyard which was given instead to "New Covenant husbandmen."  DipSINsationalists claim the wicked husbandmen will rule the earth while the ones giving the fruits will be relegated to "heaven."

"And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name..." (Isa 65¹⁵, KJV)  Rather than "Jews" we are now called, "Christians."  But, lest it be misunderstood, the replacement is not Christianity replacing Judaism.  People can be either and still be in the old man.  It is Adam that is being replaced with Christ.   The religion through Moses was for Adamic men.  What is brought through Messiah Jesus is not another religion, but a New Creation.  There are things that are naturally for this New Man, things which Adamic men cannot participate in due to being of another species.  This is not a religious change, it is a species change.

Quote from: Paul L on December 18, 2012, 03:47:43 AM

How do you prove to a Buddhist that the book of Revelation is not a book written to seven end-time congregations on the day as stated in Rev 1:10-11? The Buddhist will look you square in the eye and declare: "Don't you even believe the plain words of your own holy book, and you're trying to convert me?

Nothing at all about seven END-TIME congregations in the book of the Lord.  I know at least some of those seven are gone many centuries ago.  Those seven of John's personal concern in that day, through his writings to them, they have been symbolically representative of the Ecclesia for a couple of Millennia.

the reference to the skeletons and clothing in clean white linen made me think of the valley of the vision

  in Ezekiel?  the causing of the new sinew,muscles and bones clothing the scattered bones

of which the birds had consumed the flesh[where the dead body is there the eagles/vultures shall

gather.  a change a new creature

......

Could it be that Since Jesus is the sacrificial lamb he doesn't really look like what we think of as a lamb? After all in the revelation, "the lamb" sitting on the thrown takes and opens the scrolls. A literal lamb would find this impossible.
This may be one of the points that the literalists take a little too far.

 :thumbsup: it takes the spirit of Christ to make atonement and open our understanding of the 'word of God'

  and it's proper interpretation and fulfillment as the word of God.[were our hearts not burning[lamb on altar]

as he was opening up the scriptures to us?

Quoteauthor=reFORMer link=topic=10908.msg146651#msg146651 date=1356076892]

Quote from: Paul L on December 18, 2012, 03:47:43 AM

The Bible is a textbook, with a perfectly designated timeline for orders of events. Reading it in the haphazard manner you suggest is why my colleagues in the scientific community laugh at the aggregate confusion Christian eschatology revels  in. It's the creation of self serving contradictions exposited by these kinds of superfluous explanations which convinces the unbeliever that Christians are just crackpots.  Not your intent is it?

QuoteCertainly on such elevated persons as comprise the Scientific Community dipSINsationalism will have an effect opposite of generating faith in Jesus and His words.

Within the Scientific Community there are sharp lines of distinctions between those who are atheists & those who are not, it's about a 50/50 split. The atheist faction gets the favorable publicity.

QuoteAs an example of order, the book of Revelation is divided in twain near the end of chapter eleven.

Really? Very interesting perspective........I'll look at this some more.

 

Quote from: Paul L on December 18, 2012, 03:47:43 AM

Replacement Theology has long been a repository trapping well meaning Christians into untenable positions.

Quote....... "Replacement Theology" what history reveals was the theological position in so many churches for thousands of years.  This phrase "Replacement Theology" is meant to mean we are anti-Semitic

The Replacement Theology of Preterism was codified by the Papacy about 700 AD when he declared the Roman Catholic Church as the "one true church". Jews very soon after that became the focus of inquisition groups, a practice which roused many disparate non-Catholics, resulting in inquisitions carried forth against them as well.

Quote"The dead and broken off branches," dipSINsationalists say are not dead nor broken off.  The truth is the "wicked husbandmen" were cast out of God's Vineyard which was given instead to "New Covenant husbandmen."  DipSINsationalists claim the wicked husbandmen will rule the earth while the ones giving the fruits will be relegated to "heaven."

Disparage "dispensationalism" all you like, but it is they who called out the anti-Semitic stand of the Catholic Church for exactly what it was. For all their faults, they have always been on a better track than Preterists whose roots are soaked in the blood of the inquisitions they fomented, you can't honestly make this same charge against Dispensationalists.

QuoteNothing at all about seven END-TIME congregations in the book of the Lord.  I know at least some of those seven are gone many centuries ago.

What makes you come to this conclusion? This "church age" dogma was started by the Preterist "true church" precepts of the Catholic church by declaration of the Pope. Is this where you really want to go? Blood soaked inquisitions to promote this dogma became the fruits of this interpretation of the first three chapters Revelation. Unfortunately, even many "dispensationalists" have yet to dispense the shackles of church age fiction.

I'm confused. It looks like you are quoting yourself and then commenting on your posts? :dontknow:

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 21, 2012, 08:08:01 PM
I'm confused. It looks like you are quoting yourself and then commenting on your posts? :dontknow:

....the poster for whom the response is intended knows who is quoting whom.

OH, okay :Chinscratch:

Posted to anyone who cares :o)


IMO The seven churches in revelation are protypes of churches existing in every generation since the the time John wrote until the time Jesus returns. Seeking to make the revelation of John about chronology is, again IMO, an error. There are a series if simultaneously occuring sequences in the revelation, all culminating in the second coming and intersperced with spiritual revelations hidden in pictures/types that communicate truths to those who have ears to hear in every generation. Truths about the church, about how the adversary works, about sonship and inheritance and priesthood, about how to overcome in this age and how to walk in the spirit and fellowship in the mystery- hidden wisdom the rulers of this age cannot understand or they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory.

Quote from: eaglesway on December 21, 2012, 09:56:13 PM
Posted to anyone who cares :o)


IMO The seven churches in revelation are protypes of churches existing in every generation since the the time John wrote until the time Jesus returns.

So, my query continues to be the sources of these opinions. There is absolutely zero in the Revelation text to support ages of the Christian church that I have ever been able to locate.

Flowery language about hidden pictures/types that communicate truths, is not  an approach that instills confidence in the minds of common sense driven people to follow that preacher to the jungles of Guyana. Jim Jones had an opinion, and look what it cost the people who followed his opinions.     

Well, "they" bought into his opinion. And "they" had their own common sense (?), which aligned with his opinion.  Sad, yet it ain't over, yet.

ok  so you have a problem with types and hidden pictures that communicate truth.

   then you are like those who are stumbled and left Jesus when He said..'unless you drink my blood

  and eat my flesh you have no life in you.

  now,was this a hidden picture? did not literal-mindedness stumble..

   the blood and bread of the covenant...as long as ye eat of this and drink of this cup..ye proclaim

the death of Christ until His return..........[those awaiting His return].....

  this example isn't very 'flowery' but I think it will suffice.

   
"

 two wittness's prophesy..body..and blood..beastly carnal thinking kills the testimony..it lays

as dead for three days..........[destroy this temple and I will raise it on the third day]...

  but after 31/2 days a breath of life from God entered them..and they stood on their feet

   .........then they heard a loud voice from heaven 'Come up Here] and they went to heaven in a cloud....

.

       

Quote from: Paul L on December 22, 2012, 01:00:45 AM

Quote from: eaglesway on December 21, 2012, 09:56:13 PM
Posted to anyone who cares :o)


IMO The seven churches in revelation are protypes of churches existing in every generation since the the time John wrote until the time Jesus returns.

So, my query continues to be the sources of these opinions. There is absolutely zero in the Revelation text to support ages of the Christian church that I have ever been able to locate.

Flowery language about hidden pictures/types that communicate truths, is not  an approach that instills confidence in the minds of common sense driven people to follow that preacher to the jungles of Guyana. Jim Jones had an opinion, and look what it cost the people who followed his opinions.   

I agree with you about the ages of the christian church. I was saying that they are prototypes of churches, in general, in every generation. In other words- There have always been churches like the ones Jesus spoke to through John and there are churches like them today.

However I disagree with your characterization of the types and shadows in revelation as a very immature view of the word of prophecy. Let me give an example.

Do you really think there will be a giant messenger(Rev 10) standing with one foot on the land and one foot on the sea with clothed in a cloud with his head in heaven surrounded by a rainbow?

Do you really think there will be a woman clothed with the sun standing on the moon with twelve stars on her head and with a man-child about to come forth from her womb- or a dragon standing at ready to swallow the manchild with a flood?

In the language of the prophets, with which you seem to be very unfamiliar, all of these images communicate truths that we must receive in order to overcome in these last days.

Do you really believe there is a giant building coming down out of heaven and that it is clothed in real physical white linen- the righteous acts of the saints?

All of these images are built of words from earlier writings. They are expressions of spiritual realities in the church of Jesus Christ.

Many of those images are expounded upon in Ephesians for instance.  The church is the woman  clothed with the sun(the fulness of Him who fills all in all Eph 1).  The giant messenger is the ONE NEW MAN is(Eph 2:15). The man-child is revealed in Ephesians 4, "until we all attain to the unity of the faith, unto a mature man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of the son of God". The Bride in Ephesians 5, "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless(clothed in white linen, the righteous acts of the saints).  Then there are overcomers, clad in the full armor of God in Ephesians 6. I don't want to debate or write a book about this- but the book of revelation is more than a collection of end time predictions by a long shot, and it has been ALIVE in EVERY GENERATION FOR NEARLY 2000 YEARS, for those who have ears to hear what the Spirit is saying.

This is the language of John's revelation and it requires familiarity with the prophetic language of the whole of the scriptures to understand- and it was never for the future alone. It was always "living and active and sharper than any two edged sword for the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, bone and marrow, making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart, for all things are laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do". Apocalypse, Unveiling, Hidden Wisdom, Beautiful and Overflowing with vision and revelation TODAY.

"And His Eyes are as flames of fire......and a two edged sword comes out of His mouth".

You consider this flowery language? :o) perhaps so. Flowers full of the aroma of the life of Christ like trees planted by the streams of water bearing fruit of eternal life and leaves for the healing of the nations, oops, that's psalm 1

or a river of life flowing from beneath the throne.....oops, that's John chapter 7

Let the one who has ears to hear hear what the Spirit IS SAYING (like now today, if you hear His voice) TO THE CHURCHES.



And you all, as living stones are being built together into a dwelling place of God(coming down out of the heavens like a Bride adorned for the bridegroom) in the Spirit.1 Pet 2:5

Do you really think there will be a giant messenger(Rev 10) standing with one foot on the land and one foot on the sea with clothed in a cloud with his head in heaven surrounded by a rainbow?
--------------

That giant you  speak of is Archangel Michael.

That dragon is satan. No one knows what satan looks like.

That woman gives birth to christians, apart from the Father and Jesus who else is involved with our maturing into the fullness of Christ.

Maybe TT :o)

I saw another strong angel coming down out of heaven, clothed with a cloud; and the rainbow was upon his head, and his face was like the sun, and his feet like pillars of fire; and he had in his hand a little book which was open. He placed his right foot on the sea and his left on the land; and he cried out with a loud voice, as when a lion roars; and when he had cried out, the seven peals of thunder uttered their voices.
(Rev 10:1-3)


But I personally don't think Michael is clothed in the clouds (we are surrounded by "so great a cloud of witnesses")
it is our head who is in heaven(Jesus is head over all things to the church, His body, the fulness of Him who fills all in all) and His throne is surrounded by a rainbow(Rev 4:2,3)-

I agree, the dragon is Satan- but he is working through "the craftiness and deceitful scheming of men" by which we are "no longer tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine"(the flood out of the dragons mouth) if we are mature, having entered into the man-child- wearing the full armor of God and doing battle with the dragon :o)- but these are just my own opinions

The last part you wrote- we are in complete  agreement about I think :o) the woman is the church, His body giving birth, gestating a man-child who will do battle with the dragon after the woman is carried away on the wings of the great eagle. Her womb is the place where mature disciples are grown.

And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ(man-child). As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine(flood), by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming(dragon); but speaking the truth in love(maturity), we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head(sonship), even Christ, from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part(priesthood), causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love(clothed in white linen).

:2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c:

Quote from: Paul L on December 21, 2012, 07:57:55 PM

Disparage "dispensationalism" all you like, but it is they who called out the anti-Semitic stand of the Catholic Church for exactly what it was. For all their faults, they have always been on a better track than Preterists whose roots are soaked in the blood of the inquisitions they fomented, you can't honestly make this same charge against Dispensationalists.

"The distinguishing "chosen race" or "racial salvation" philosophy of first century Phariseeism resulted from their abject spiritual poverty.  Natural minds seldom transcend natural things.  Their fleshly and materialistic minds easily adapted themselves to a literalistic or materialistic interpretation of prophecy.  It was Pharisaic literalism, said Dr. E. W. Hengstenberg, in his Christology, that led the unregenerate, natural minded Pharisees to reject the New Testament Kingdom of God and to crucify the King." --- p. 28, Whither Israeli? by Cecil J. Lowry

Quote from: reFORMer on December 21, 2012, 10:01:32 AM
Nothing at all about seven END-TIME congregations in the book of the Lord.  I know at least some of those seven are gone many centuries ago.

Quote from: Paul L on December 21, 2012, 07:57:55 PM
What makes you come to this conclusion? This "church age" dogma was started by the Preterist "true church" precepts of the Catholic church by declaration of the Pope. Is this where you really want to go? Blood soaked inquisitions to promote this dogma became the fruits of this interpretation of the first three chapters Revelation. Unfortunately, even many "dispensationalists" have yet to dispense the shackles of church age fiction.

A common proverbial saying is to the effect that rat poison is 99% good wheat.  No self-respecting rat would eat pure poison.  I don't know anything else to do in good conscience but accept those things occurring in history in fulfillment of Bible prophecy in the two thousand years since the scripture as we have it was written.  If kooks and religious devils use such knowledge to excuse wicked deeds (in defiance of the clear teaching of the author of scripture) it cannot invalidate the facts.

There is some truth in all the major interpretations of Revelation, for instance.  Preterist, Historicist, Futurist, and Symbolist, when corrected, have some things right.  This is part of the depth of scripture.  To examine these various viewpoints is to do your homework.  That doesn't mean you'll thereby find what God has in store for you to hear, from His mouth to your ear.  It just gets you ready and shows you care.  "God gives His gifts to those who appreciates them," is what I believe He told me years ago.

Quoteauthor=reFORMer link=topic=10908.msg146732#msg146732 date=1356160318]

QuoteA common proverbial saying is to the effect that rat poison is 99% good wheat.  No self-respecting rat would eat pure poison.

What's the "poison" in this case to which you make reference?

QuoteI don't know anything else to do in good conscience but accept those things occurring in history in fulfillment of Bible prophecy in the two thousand years since the scripture as we have it was written.

Provide an example of what you are making reference to......

QuoteIf kooks and religious devils use such knowledge to excuse wicked deeds (in defiance of the clear teaching of the author of scripture) it cannot invalidate the facts.

What "knowledge" are you referring to? Providing a few examples would go a long way in establishing exactly what you mean.

QuoteThere is some truth in all the major interpretations of Revelation, for instance.  Preterist, Historicist, Futurist, and Symbolist, when corrected, have some things right.

So give by example how a position taken by a Preterist can be "corrected" to "have some things right" ? Don't forget, they believe everything in Revelation has been fulfilled, the millenium started about 70 AD, but upon doing the math we are presently over a thousand years beyond the millenium. How do you propose this be "corrected"?[/quote]

 my  :2c:  by recognizing that the camp of the Holy city in the earth is a church. camp of God..Mahanaim

    and that the seven angels of the churches and the lampstand[7  has an eighth that comes of it.....

  just as Babylon has an eighth king that comes of the seven/God has His Holy counterpart.

   Micah 5;5   Promised ruler....and He will be their peace. When the Assyrian invades our land and

  marches through our fortresses,we will raise against him 7 shepherds..even eight leaders of men

   Bread upon the waters  Ecc 11  cast your bread upon the waters for after many days you will find it again

  Give portions to seven,yes to eight,for you do not know what disaster may come upon the land

Genesis 17;12 for the generations to come..every male among you who is eight days old must be

circumcized........[manchild day of circumcision]

   Ezekiel 40;31...eight steps led up to it

  Ezekiel 43;27  at the end of these days..from the eigth day on..the priests are to present your

burnt offerings and fellowship offerings on the alter,then I will accept you,says the Sovereign Lord

  when the 1000 yrs are over satan is released..but look a Great White throne where earth and sky fled from

His presence[eighth day-death gives up it's dead]

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 22, 2012, 01:41:33 AM
Well, "they" bought into his opinion. And "they" had their own common sense (?), which aligned with his opinion.  Sad, yet it ain't over, yet.

.....and you may unfortunately be right. As recently as only 70 years ago, 6 million innocents lost their lives in Nazi death camps under the auspices of a Christian vicar whose silence made him nothing less than complicit. So much for the fruits of the Preteristic roots of Replacement Theology & the insanity it has inspired for 1500 years.

Quoteauthor=sheila link=topic=10908.msg146710#msg146710 date=1356134873]

Quoteok  so you have a problem with types and hidden pictures that communicate truth.

The 900 people who followed Jim Jones into that jungle in Guyana had no problem with this flowery fluff did they?  Is that where you want to go? Or maybe you'd find this sort of platitude more plalatable when applied to 6 million Jews so long as you were not one of the prison guards? None of these had "a problem with types and hidden pictures that communicate truth", then came the aftermath of believing in the pretty dressed up pictures communicating all these so-called Biblical truths which fomented the replacement theology of Preterism.

Quotenow,was this a hidden picture? did not literal-mindedness stumble..

If you have such great passion to be caught up in the quagmires that the replacement theology of Preterism has wreaked upon the western world of Christendom through all its interpretations of "types and hidden pictures that communicate truth", then standby, you just never know when you may get a chance to donate your willingness for doing so.

Quote.......this example isn't very 'flowery' but I think it will suffice.

I know........   

Unfortunately Paul, you seem to be under the opinion that anyone who doesnt agree with your point of view is apart of some "preterist conspiracy". Maybe even a part of a cult like Jonestown. The book of revelations requires interpretation, regardless of any opinion to the contrary. Your interpretation is acceptable for discussion on the forum. I havent heard anyone compare your views to the vilest images that could be dredged up. You are going to have to tone down your rhetoric and get in an attitude of discussing differing viewpoints on the scriptures if you want to continue participating in the forum.

Paul, are you saying that a belief in preterism caused the 6 million jews to be destroyed at the Nazi death camps?
I've heard it blamed on evolution because Hitler believed he could create a superior race but maybe he was a preterist too.

Quoteauthor=eaglesway link=topic=10908.msg146717#msg146717 date=1356145258]

Quote from: Paul L on December 22, 2012, 01:00:45 AM

Quote from: eaglesway on December 21, 2012, 09:56:13 PM

IMO The seven churches in revelation are protypes of churches existing in every generation since the the time John wrote until the time Jesus returns.

So, my query continues to be the sources of these opinions. There is absolutely zero in the Revelation text to support ages of the Christian church that I have ever been able to locate.

Flowery language about hidden pictures/types that communicate truths, is not  an approach that instills confidence in the minds of common sense driven people to follow that preacher to the jungles of Guyana. Jim Jones had an opinion, and look what it cost the people who followed his opinions.   

QuoteI agree with you about the ages of the christian church. I was saying that they are prototypes of churches, in general, in every generation. In other words- There have always been churches like the ones Jesus spoke to through John and there are churches like them today.

......but Christ is not talking to John about churches that once were........he is talking to John about ecclesias that exist as described in Rev 1:10-11....."on the Lord's day" to seven congregations in seven different cities in Asia. You're so hung up in the past with your "ages" that you're unable to see the future.

QuoteHowever I disagree with your characterization of the types and shadows in revelation as a very immature view of the word of prophecy. Let me give an example.

I haven't presented any "types and shadows in revelation" as you erroneously state, but if you want to go there:

QuoteDo you really think there will be a giant messenger(Rev 10) standing with one foot on the land and one foot on the sea with clothed in a cloud with his head in heaven surrounded by a rainbow?

Yep...........It is probably Michael, for it is he who is Israel's protectorate, Dan 12:1 Rev 12:7, 9. God's angelic messengers are very literal & real & he can make them any size it so suits him.

QuoteDo you really think there will be a woman clothed with the sun standing on the moon with twelve stars on her head and with a man-child about to come forth from her womb- or a dragon standing at ready to swallow the manchild with a flood?

Sure, unless evidence to the contrary can be presented. Do you have some text from scripture in support of it being symbolic? If you do, put it forth.

QuoteIn the language of the prophets, with which you seem to be very unfamiliar,

..........this manner of strident language from you is why I would be recalcitrant to follow Preterists such as yourself into the jungles of Guyana or the Nazi death camps, I already know it's suicide & murder.

QuoteDo you really believe there is a giant building coming down out of heaven and that it is clothed in real physical white linen

You mean I shouldn't? Why is that?

QuoteAll of these images are built of words from earlier writings. They are expressions of spiritual realities in the church of Jesus Christ.

When the Preterist inquisitors were stoking the bonfires around their bound & helpless victims, they too were mindful "of spiritual realities in the church of Jesus Christ", or maybe 900 people on a merry stroll behind Jim Jones into the jungle were thinking the same thing?

Yeah, keep going.........

QuoteMany of those images are expounded upon in Ephesians for instance.

QuoteThe church is the woman  clothed with the sun(the fulness of Him who fills all in all Eph 1).

And what is the crown of 12 stars on her head symbolic of concerning the Christian church? I don't see that explained in Eph 1. The context of Rev 12 as well as old testament prophecies identify the woman as Israel, but I know that is anathema to Replacement Theology proffered by the Pope.

QuoteThe giant messenger is the ONE NEW MAN is(Eph 2:15).

What is the "giant messenger" you're referring to? The one in Rev 10? That's Michael, not me, not you, or however manner you attempt to link scripture together which bear no relevance to one another.

QuoteThe man-child is revealed in Ephesians 4, "until we all attain to the unity of the faith, unto a mature man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of the son of God".

QuoteThe Bride in Ephesians 5, "Husbands, love your wives,

A "bride" is not a wife ("wives"). Look it up in Strong's Concordance.

QuoteThen there are overcomers, clad in the full armor of God in Ephesians 6. I don't want to debate or write a book about this- but the book of revelation is more than a collection of end time predictions by a long shot

Then why don't you make cogent connections between the two books. You couldn't even make a proper distinction between "bride" & "wives" with your digression. Based on that alone, why should I care what the Pope thinks about anything?

QuoteThis is the language of John's revelation and it requires familiarity with the prophetic language of the whole of the scriptures to understand

.......and the places to start are the prophetic sections of the Old Testament.

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 22, 2012, 10:56:56 PM
Paul, are you saying that a belief in preterism caused the 6 million jews to be destroyed at the Nazi death camps?
I've heard it blamed on evolution because Hitler believed he could create a superior race but maybe he was a preterist too.

He was Catholic. Don't believe the discredited nonsense he was Jewish, or that he was fathered by a Jewish man who had raped his mother.

So was Hitler a preterist, a Catholic that went to mass weekly and confessed to the priest? or did he really run the church so to speak as the priests did what they were told. Is there ANY evidence he was a preterist and if so is there ANY evidence the preterist belief caused him to destroy 6 million?

  WHO THEN IS THE FAITHFUL AND WISE SERVANT,WHOM THE MASTER HAS PUT IN CHARGE OF THE SERVANTS

  OF HIS HOUSEHOLD TO GIVE THEM THEIR FOOD AT THE PROPER TIME.? IT WILL BE GOOD FOR

THAT SERVANT IF HIS MASTER FINDS HIM DOING SO WHEN HE RETURNS.......

  BUT SUPPOSE THAT SERVANT IS WICKED AND SAYS TO HIMSELF...'MY MASTER IS DELAYING A LONG TIME"

  AND HE THEN BEGINS TO BEAT HIS FELLOW SERVANTS AND TO EAT AND DRINK WITH THE DRUNKARDS

    THE MASTER OF THAT SERVANT WILL COME ON A DAY THAT HE DOES NOT EXPECT HIM,AT AN

  HOUR THAT HE DOES NOT EXPECT. HE WILL CUT HIM TO PEICES AND ASSIGN HIM A PLACE

WITH THE HYPOCRITES.WHERE THERE WILL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH.


   FEED MY SHEEP.....i 2WAS HUNGRY AND YOU GIVE ME SOMETHING TO EAT,IN PRISON AND

  YOU VISITED ME,THIRSTY AND YOU GIVE ME SOMETHING TO DRINK, I NEEDED CLOTHES

AND YE CLOTHED ME..SICK AND YOU LOOKED AFTER ME.


    IT IS VERY IMPORTANT HOW WE TREAT PEOPLE..YOU DO NOT GATHER FIGS FROM THORNS

  NOW,DOES THIS PICTURE AND TYPE COMMUNICATE TRUTH?  pARABLES ARE TYPES AND PICTURES

USED OF cHRIST TO COMMUNICATE TRUTH..THOSE WHO HAVE EARS TO HEAR 'HEAR'



AS UNTIL i AM CLOTHED IN IMMORTALITY IN CELESTAIL BODY i AM NOT FINISHED IN THE IMAGE

OF cHRIST]ALSO...AGES OF THE CHURCH MEAN NOTHING TO ME..SIMPLY PUT i SEE THE AGE OF LAW

THE AGE OF GRACE FOLLOWED BY ETERNAL INCORRUPT IMMORTALITY.

SO IS YOUR CONCERN THAT PRETERIST VEIWS BRING FORTH WICKED SERVANT CLASSES?

AND YES 1000 YR REICH OF PURE PEOPLE WAS HITLER'S PLAN, HAVE SEEN THIS.....SAME AS

JIM JONES,INQUISITION..ALL WICKED SERVANT CLASSES..THAT DID NOT SERVE AND MINISTER

TO GOD'S PEOPLE BUT BEAT AND BECOME DRUNK/BABYLON POWER/RULE OVER PEOPLE

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 22, 2012, 11:29:41 PM
So was Hitler a preterist, a Catholic that went to mass weekly and confessed to the priest? or did he really run the church so to speak as the priests did what they were told. Is there ANY evidence he was a preterist and if so is there ANY evidence the preterist belief caused him to destroy 6 million?

I've yet to meet a Catholic that isn't Preterist.....it's the cornerstone of the religion.

Quote from: Paul L on December 22, 2012, 11:12:19 PM

Quoteauthor=eaglesway link=topic=10908.msg146717#msg146717 date=1356145258]

Quote from: Paul L on December 22, 2012, 01:00:45 AM

Quote from: eaglesway on December 21, 2012, 09:56:13 PM

IMO The seven churches in revelation are protypes of churches existing in every generation since the the time John wrote until the time Jesus returns.

So, my query continues to be the sources of these opinions. There is absolutely zero in the Revelation text to support ages of the Christian church that I have ever been able to locate.

Flowery language about hidden pictures/types that communicate truths, is not  an approach that instills confidence in the minds of common sense driven people to follow that preacher to the jungles of Guyana. Jim Jones had an opinion, and look what it cost the people who followed his opinions.   

QuoteI agree with you about the ages of the christian church. I was saying that they are prototypes of churches, in general, in every generation. In other words- There have always been churches like the ones Jesus spoke to through John and there are churches like them today.

......but Christ is not talking to John about churches that once were........he is talking to John about ecclesias that exist as described in Rev 1:10-11....."on the Lord's day" to seven congregations in seven different cities in Asia. You're so hung up in the past with your "ages" that you're unable to see the future.

QuoteHowever I disagree with your characterization of the types and shadows in revelation as a very immature view of the word of prophecy. Let me give an example.

I haven't presented any "types and shadows in revelation" as you erroneously state, but if you want to go there:

QuoteDo you really think there will be a giant messenger(Rev 10) standing with one foot on the land and one foot on the sea with clothed in a cloud with his head in heaven surrounded by a rainbow?

Yep...........It is probably Michael, for it is he who is Israel's protectorate, Dan 12:1 Rev 12:7, 9. God's angelic messengers are very literal & real & he can make them any size it so suits him.

QuoteDo you really think there will be a woman clothed with the sun standing on the moon with twelve stars on her head and with a man-child about to come forth from her womb- or a dragon standing at ready to swallow the manchild with a flood?

Sure, unless evidence to the contrary can be presented. Do you have some text from scripture in support of it being symbolic? If you do, put it forth.

QuoteIn the language of the prophets, with which you seem to be very unfamiliar,

..........this manner of strident language from you is why I would be recalcitrant to follow Preterists such as yourself into the jungles of Guyana or the Nazi death camps, I already know it's suicide & murder.

QuoteDo you really believe there is a giant building coming down out of heaven and that it is clothed in real physical white linen

You mean I shouldn't? Why is that?

QuoteAll of these images are built of words from earlier writings. They are expressions of spiritual realities in the church of Jesus Christ.

When the Preterist inquisitors were stoking the bonfires around their bound & helpless victims, they too were mindful "of spiritual realities in the church of Jesus Christ", or maybe 900 people on a merry stroll behind Jim Jones into the jungle were thinking the same thing?

Yeah, keep going.........

QuoteMany of those images are expounded upon in Ephesians for instance.

QuoteThe church is the woman  clothed with the sun(the fulness of Him who fills all in all Eph 1).

And what is the crown of 12 stars on her head symbolic of concerning the Christian church? I don't see that explained in Eph 1. The context of Rev 12 as well as old testament prophecies identify the woman as Israel, but I know that is anathema to Replacement Theology proffered by the Pope.

QuoteThe giant messenger is the ONE NEW MAN is(Eph 2:15).

What is the "giant messenger" you're referring to? The one in Rev 10? That's Michael, not me, not you, or however manner you attempt to link scripture together which bear no relevance to one another.

QuoteThe man-child is revealed in Ephesians 4, "until we all attain to the unity of the faith, unto a mature man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of the son of God".

QuoteThe Bride in Ephesians 5, "Husbands, love your wives,

A "bride" is not a wife ("wives"). Look it up in Strong's Concordance.

QuoteThen there are overcomers, clad in the full armor of God in Ephesians 6. I don't want to debate or write a book about this- but the book of revelation is more than a collection of end time predictions by a long shot

Then why don't you make cogent connections between the two books. You couldn't even make a proper distinction between "bride" & "wives" with your digression. Based on that alone, why should I care what the Pope thinks about anything?

QuoteThis is the language of John's revelation and it requires familiarity with the prophetic language of the whole of the scriptures to understand

.......and the places to start are the prophetic sections of the Old Testament.

Paul, neither you nor I cares what the Pope thinks about anything, it is inconsequential and without application to our discussion. You are welcome to the opinion that the giant messenger in Rev 10 is the archangel Michael, but is is by no means as clear as you present it by your say so, and there is no need for your aggressive attitude and condescension. Hitler's race and religion are meaningless. Pol Pot, Mao tse tung, Stalin,- were not Catholic but they were all great murderers of Christians and Jews alike.   Hitler was a murderer because he was a madman and an evil meglomaniac filled with the spirit of anti-Christ. I am not sure what your sore spot is, or what you think you are reacting to, but you could tone the rhetoric down a notch and everyone would be well-served.

Paul, Catholics are, for the most part, emphatically not Preterists. They believe in a future second coming. Preterists believe the second coming was already fulfilled, that all prophecy was fulfilled in the first century AD. I begin to see that your bugaboo is Replacement Theology.
Not everyone who believes that the church has replaced Israel is a Preterist. I personally do not think the church has replaced Israel. The promises of God to Israel are without repentance and they are beloved for the sake of the forefathers even tho they are enemies of our gospel- but that will change, for ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED.

The church has, IMO, transcended Israel, and is made up of Jews and Gentiles, with a Jewish root.


Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.
(Eph 2:11-22)

One of the greatest passages regarding ultimate universal reconciliation begins at the conclusion of three chapters of scripture explaining the dynamics of the plan of God regarding Jews and Gentiles.

But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS." From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
(Rom 11:13-36)

Paul,
So how was Hitlers preterism supposed to contribute to the 6 million murders of the holocaust?

Quote from: Paul L on December 23, 2012, 04:01:08 AM
I've yet to meet a Catholic that isn't Preterist.....it's the cornerstone of the religion.

Very many Roman Catholics believe similar to you and others who post here because they watch the same dipSINsational televangelists.  Just try to locate someone on popular media (radio and television) teaching otherwise.  There are a few I know who don't speak directly to several of these matters the popular media overwhelmingly promulgate.  There are allusions in what they say, but they are for now not very public about it.  A couple of them even teach Ultimate Reconciliation, just not very openly.  I know of maybe three, the fourth is regional radio (R. C. Sproul in Florida, Covenant rather than dipSINsational,) but, unless you either write for one's product catalog (JoAnn Bunce, Niagara Ministries,) or know another's past (Lynn Hiles,) you'd probably not know them for it.  There's one lone, at least partial preterist, Jennings on "Truth in History" on Sunday a. m., Angel.  If you want deeper teaching you need to go to the internet. 

I've suggested previously two or three short books that have helped many to rise above dipSINsationalist views on near at hand prophetic issues.  I'll just offer one for now.  Read Bill Britton's booklet called "A Closer Look at the Rapture."  You can read it FREE at...

http://www.dimensionsoftruth.org/bill-britton/closer-look-at-rapture/

When there, click on these live links above Bill's picture.  They are chapters in the booklet.  The last two are called chapter 4 (maybe a misprint.)
   
    Noah's Ark by Bill Britton
    Day and Night by Bill Britton
    Sounding of the Trumpets by Bill Britton
    One Shall Be Taken by Bill Britton
    The Rapture of the Church -What is it? by Bill Britton

Go to the following and, for a donation, you can get it in hard copy...

http://www.billbrittonministries.com

Bill Britton Ministries/Church in Action
PO Box 707
Springfield MO 65801-0707 USA

Email: harness707@aol.com
Fax: 417-865-3191
Phone: 417-865-1075

(There's another free copy and messages at a site with the word "lighthouse" in its name.  I just don't have the time to relocate it at the moment.  WW would've known where that is.)

I believe it was Paul who dealed with some in the congregation that were headed erronously into the perspec-

tive.  So,you are already ruling without us?  It is an issue that needs to be addressed and scripturally

examined.

Hey Ded2

   Hitler was a catholic..who was going to purge the Kingdom on earth of devils[jews/assorted other types]

  and manifest Christ's 1000yr reign on the earth.  The Pope sits as a ruler for Christ Kingdom on earth.

    in lesser degrees I see this same thing manifested of 'pasters' preachers' that take headship away

  from Christ and the body of believers..and insert themselves as the authority/head..begin ruling

in Christ's stead[this results in a spiritual beheading of the body of believers]

reF snd sheila  :thumbsup:

I'm on my phone but hopefully this link will still direct you to Bill Britton's writings at lighthouse library:

http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/searchdb.php?what=author&searchfor=|BRITTON,%20BILL|&type=&show=titles&showitems=

(If not I'll fix it later.)

Thanks reF, I didn't even know Bill's writings were on there, I've been reading his stuff on promiseed and was wondering where to find more. :)

I HIGHLY recommend reading Bill Britton!!

I don't care if Hitler was jewish, catholic, protestant, whatever - we all know it was in name only just as our current leader professing christianity while saying the sweetest sound he's ever heard is the muslim call to prayer.

My question that still hasn't been answered is how in the world anyone can attribute a belief in preterism to the killing of the 6 million in the ovens during the war.

Matthew 11;12 and from the days of John the baptist until now, the kingdom of Heaven

suffereth violence,and the violent take it by force.

Bro. Bill loved him and wept for a week at his passing. Went to the convention to meet him but it was not to be. I probably have all Bro. Bill's writings, went through the Bible course and received my diploma, all of the tapes(boxes) all have ruined now. I sure did like listening to that brother, it was his booklets and tapes that really changed my study of the Bible. I requested trac's like "the Harness of the Lord" and passed them out from CA. (where I lived mainly) to WA. state. It was through Bro. Bill I learned much about Azuza, the Latter Rain, Geo. Warnock (The Feast of Tabernacles) Bro. Hawtin, Man just the mention of the man's name takes me back 40 years. I read "Treasures of the Snow" so many times I had to request new ones. I need to dig out those 2 big boxes full of booklets.  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

Quote from: sheila on December 23, 2012, 04:16:30 PM
Hey Ded2

   Hitler was a catholic..who was going to purge the Kingdom on earth of devils[jews/assorted other types]

  and manifest Christ's 1000yr reign on the earth.  The Pope sits as a ruler for Christ Kingdom on earth.

    in lesser degrees I see this same thing manifested of 'pasters' preachers' that take headship away

  from Christ and the body of believers..and insert themselves as the authority/head..begin ruling

in Christ's stead[this results in a spiritual beheading of the body of believers]

Eagle: Take note above.

Hitler did it in the name of Christ, with the complicit knowledge of the Preterist Pope........and that is the difference you won't be honest about.

So as I understand it: Hitler kills 6 million. The pope is implicitly involved. The pope at the time may or may not be a preterist(Nothing said or written to prove one way or another) Since the pope that is implicitly preterist, implicitly approves of Hitlers actions, then Hitlers implicit preterism is responsible for the 6 million dead? Hitler doesn't say, "da debil made me do it" but "dat preterism made me do it"?  :dontknow:

We know the Pope signed a treaty with Hitler.  [The Vatican is a country].

Why he did this and turned a blind eye to the Holocaust--Paul is saying it has its roots in replacement theology--that the church replaced the Jews as the chosen people, and this somehow gives the Pope the moral ground to stand on and look aside while atrocities happen.  I think that is what Paul is saying.  I assume he's done research on it.

I get that, but to me it's like saying the ten commandments were modified because "thou shalt not kill" was eliminated when the 6 million were. Even if the pope was preterist (which there was no proof of) why not just say the Pope killed the 6 million because the Catholic church was implicit with their treaty to save themselves. (I AM sure the pope was catholic at the time, there is some evidence of that) :laughing7:

I'm not sure what you're saying, D2, and I'm not trying to defend Paul's position because he is best at doing that.  But, the stance of the Catholic church should be well known--preterism or not--and Paul is claiming he knows what it is.  I haven't studied this myself, but I do know that everyone suffered under Hitler, including many Protestants, and even individual Catholic priests, who when push comes to shove, must do the dictates of their conscience, but the Catholic church as a whole came out of it unscathed.

The Pope apparently then helped many Nazi's to escape after the war with Vatican passports.  So I don't know.  Paul can flesh this out in greater detail.

The question for history is, Why?

Quote from: Paul L on December 23, 2012, 06:17:24 PM

Quote from: sheila on December 23, 2012, 04:16:30 PM
Hey Ded2

   Hitler was a catholic..who was going to purge the Kingdom on earth of devils[jews/assorted other types]

  and manifest Christ's 1000yr reign on the earth.  The Pope sits as a ruler for Christ Kingdom on earth.

    in lesser degrees I see this same thing manifested of 'pasters' preachers' that take headship away

  from Christ and the body of believers..and insert themselves as the authority/head..begin ruling

in Christ's stead[this results in a spiritual beheading of the body of believers]

Eagle: Take note above.

Hitler did it in the name of Christ, with the complicit knowledge of the Preterist Pope........and that is the difference you won't be honest about.

I disagree.

Hitler did it in the name of Germany and Aryan supremacy and again, this is not about honesty, it is about opinions. I am not Catholic so I have nothing to defend. I just think you are wrong in the measure of degree in which you apportion blame for wickedness to a particular theological persuasion.

Any theology Hitler injected into his efforts was propaganda, because he was a mystic, a follower of ancient gods of war and powers of darkness- a prototype of the one to come

Quote from: eaglesway on December 23, 2012, 08:59:57 PM

Quote from: Paul L on December 23, 2012, 06:17:24 PM

Quote from: sheila on December 23, 2012, 04:16:30 PM
Hey Ded2

   Hitler was a catholic..who was going to purge the Kingdom on earth of devils[jews/assorted other types]

  and manifest Christ's 1000yr reign on the earth.  The Pope sits as a ruler for Christ Kingdom on earth.

    in lesser degrees I see this same thing manifested of 'pasters' preachers' that take headship away

  from Christ and the body of believers..and insert themselves as the authority/head..begin ruling

in Christ's stead[this results in a spiritual beheading of the body of believers]

Eagle: Take note above.

Hitler did it in the name of Christ, with the complicit knowledge of the Preterist Pope........and that is the difference you won't be honest about.

I disagree.

Hitler did it in the name of Germany and Aryan supremacy and again, this is not about honesty, it is about opinions. I am not Catholic so I have nothing to defend. I just think you are wrong in the measure of degree in which you apportion blame for wickedness to a particular theological persuasion.

Any theology Hitler injected into his efforts was propaganda, because he was a mystic, a follower of ancient gods of war and powers of darkness- a prototype of the one to come

I tend to agree.  I think Hitler was a Satanist.

But, the question remains, what's the Pope's excuse?

 ...the delusion is such that they kill you and think they do God a service.  good points all.....

   individual consciences acted accordingly.   I saw a video re;Hitler and occult connections with

a henchman[mandrake root was huge in the old film]   

   I think it was on the history channel.  on the ATS site there is a post from a lady that dwelled in Germany

  when Hitler rose..she wrote it as a warning to the usa.  Incremental conditioning.

   there are a lot of religions 'chomping at the bit' to ded2.may appreciate this.  I was out in service with

some elders in door to door..and they began speaking about when the governmenst fell  that they

would have power to put people to death/not just disfellowship them/like at present... 

yikes.  Are you talking about JW's?  :mshock:

The Pope needs no excuse. IMO, He is an icon of a false religion, not a servant of the righteousness of Christ. Why would anyone expect any different from the leader of the organization that is responsible for the deaths of so many saints over so many years?

yep........ there is no shortage of.power-hungry wouldbe rulers!!  Maybe it's the governments that restrain?

just an idea? In Jerusalem they had to go through the romans to get Him put to death..sedition was

  the charge.

I'm not sure, but didn't Germany's killing 6 million Jews and 7 million Christians (1.2 Christians for every Jew) basically remain a secret until their defeat when the Allies entered and found the death camps?  Only a few U.S. officials close to the end had become aware of the unspeakable atrocities perpetrated by the Nazi's.  Probably the Pope didn't know of that aspect of Hitler's society.  Also, I think it was only a well placed Cardinal and another RC official with helpers who were responsible for saving so many German fascist officials after the war.

  I think it was anybody that raised a voice of dissent. I read somewhere that the U.S brought in many

  of the intelligence group[scientist] for this country.

  loss of freedoms of press etc..government suppression/oppression..'covert' activities

Always follow the money. The vatican is filled with very valuable works of art. Without a deal, the germans
(and this is what they should have done to win) could have waltzed right in and taken whatever they wanted and
then sold it to finance their efforts.

THIS IS A LONG POST ON BIBLE PROPHECY, BUT PERHAPS SOMEONE MIGHT BE INTERESTED. :smile:

If we look in history, there were lots of wicked Popes who did wickedly. I think a lot of it wasn't religion so much as religion used for politics.

The Book of Revelation is a series of visions. The year 70A.D, surely? was the end of an age. And a new age began in earnest afterwards, becoming the latter age, the years of our Lord A.D. - So 70A.D. was also, "an end of the age".

We could also say the Book of Revelation is like a play.. a drama (the peak of God's drama proving good from evil / life from death) and the end or collapse (the finish) and unveiling of the empires of man and the bringing in and unveiling of the Kingdom of God.

Jerusalem, both in vision and upon earth represents the heavenly.. or more exactly, the Kingdom of God, yes, even in its imperfection during the ages of man. And BabbleOn :smile: is man's world, man's empires.. ever since the first Tower of man, Babel Tower (but alas after being separated by God's confusing the languages, the world once again is becoming one "and there shall be nothing beyond them" as God said as the reason for confusing the languages. Of course Tower Babel and Babylon of the world (which goes global, sits on seven hills/continents) will crash or collapse. Surely there will be an end to mankind's empires?

The huge angel who puts one foot on the sea and the other upon land is an angel John sees. This angel is announcing a section of vision (an act of the play/drama) which immediately follows his announcement. There are many angels which announce or declare certain things in the vision John was shown (by Jesus) on the Island of Patmos. They were seen by John, but not all of them are part of the vision of what will/does occur on planet Earth.

Revelation chapter 12 is one of four inserts. This (inserts) is one way the Book of Revelation is kept hidden or sealed for, well, quite a while. An insert like we see in an encyclopedia, used to expound or expand upon something.. like the creation of man and woman in Genesis 2 is an insert of the account in Genesis 1. Not an additional creation as some have said (although I haven't heard that one for a while).

If we read it carefully and follow cross references which come up, Revelation chapter 12, the woman (nations are sometimes by the prophets referred to as women). She has twelve stars around her head (kind of like a halo? but not? 12 tribes?) - She gives birth to a manchild (Son of man?).

The dragon tries to devour this manchild, son of man as soon as he is born (in the person of Herod when he had all the male babies of Bethlehem killed??)

But, the man child (Son of man?) is caught up to God and His Throne - Hebrew 1:3 (I believe it is) says Christ (after ascending) now sits at the right hand of God.

Rev 12 also says this manchild will "rule the nations with a rod of iron" (the law and principals of God which are actually un-breakable, which is what we humans are learning). Psalm 2 has a "rod of iron" cross reference - "thiS is the decree.. I have set My King upon Zion.. nations as His inheritence.. to the very ends of the earth.. and He will rule them with a rod of iron" verses 2-9?

What happens next? after the manchild is lifted up to the Throne of God?
The dragon (that old serpent) in a rage pursues. This is implied, as the woman who has the twelve stars around her head "flees" and thus we come to 70 A.D. and the razing of Jerusalem, the end of an age, and now the new wearer of the mantle, Christianity (with both Jews aNd Greeks/nonJews) flees/migrates. Largely where? Where for the most part did Christianity go and grow and take the most root first?

Next, there is war in heaven and the dragon and the 1/3 are now denied any further access to heaven. After Christ's crucifixion and resurrection, the battle is won, and half the battle won is manifested upon earth. Jesus overcame those old 'gods' and Christianity went forth conquering and to conquer, which it does to this very day.

After he is restricted from heaven / the heavens, the dragon is enraged and again pursues and persecutes and inquisitions the woman (now Christianity, the grafted into Israel).

Again the woman flees, a second migration, when she is given the wings of a mighty eagle that she may fly (sail?) to a new place where, tho of course not yet perfected by a long shot, she will be kept safe from the FACE of the dragon for 3 and 1/2 (I assume, modern divisions of time).

After this time, the serpent guise of the dragon, spews a flood of water after the woman (vomits after her) in order to wash her away from off the face of the earth (an explosion and proliferation of a previously hidden social phenomenon? 3 and 1/2 modern divisions ='s 350? is 1620 to 1970? Note, the greek word translated "harlot" is actually "pornos" and one of its meanings is "to sell" - free enterprise, become capitalism, embraces "pornos" and leads all the world astray, another "woman" albeit by this time a global one, but I guess that's another Bk of Rev topic.)

But! the earth helps the woman, and opens its mouth and swallows the flood which "the dragon" spewed after the woman. This verse, to me, strongly suggests drought in late days. Especially if we consider what Jesus said when women were weeping while He was carrying His cross to be crucified - "women weep not for me but for children's children, for if they will do this in a green leaf" (crucify Him) "what will they do in a DRY leaf??"

After this the dragon turns his attention back to the woman's other offspring, Israel. Note how Jesus had said "Jerusalem, Jerusalem.. you shall not see me again, until you say "blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD". ---After the flood is swallowed by the earth, the dragon turns his attention (back to) the other offspring of the woman, who have the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus - aka, by now, "hold to the testimony of Jesus"? Cross reference Rev 16, verse 14,15 and 16 - (14)spirits gathering the nations to Armageddon (15)Behold I am coming like a thief, unexpectedly, happy the one who stays awake (16)And they gathered together to the place in Hebrew called Harmageddon.

Well said, Marie, and I see little (if anything) to doubt or disagree with.

Quote from: marie glen on January 25, 2013, 12:27:34 AM
THIS IS A LONG POST ON BIBLE PROPHECY, BUT PERHAPS SOMEONE MIGHT BE INTERESTED. :smile:

If we look in history, there were lots of wicked Popes who did wickedly. I think a lot of it wasn't religion so much as religion used for politics.

The Book of Revelation is a series of visions. The year 70A.D, surely? was the end of an age. And a new age began in earnest afterwards, becoming the latter age, the years of our Lord A.D. - So 70A.D. was also, "an end of the age".

We could also say the Book of Revelation is like a play.. a drama (the peak of God's drama proving good from evil / life from death) and the end or collapse (the finish) and unveiling of the empires of man and the bringing in and unveiling of the Kingdom of God.

Jerusalem, both in vision and upon earth represents the heavenly.. or more exactly, the Kingdom of God, yes, even in its imperfection during the ages of man. And BabbleOn :smile: is man's world, man's empires.. ever since the first Tower of man, Babel Tower (but alas after being separated by God's confusing the languages, the world once again is becoming one "and there shall be nothing beyond them" as God said as the reason for confusing the languages. Of course Tower Babel and Babylon of the world (which goes global, sits on seven hills/continents) will crash or collapse. Surely there will be an end to mankind's empires?

The huge angel who puts one foot on the sea and the other upon land is an angel John sees. This angel is announcing a section of vision (an act of the play/drama) which immediately follows his announcement. There are many angels which announce or declare certain things in the vision John was shown (by Jesus) on the Island of Patmos. They were seen by John, but not all of them are part of the vision of what will/does occur on planet Earth.

Revelation chapter 12 is one of four inserts. This (inserts) is one way the Book of Revelation is kept hidden or sealed for, well, quite a while. An insert like we see in an encyclopedia, used to expound or expand upon something.. like the creation of man and woman in Genesis 2 is an insert of the account in Genesis 1. Not an additional creation as some have said (although I haven't heard that one for a while).

If we read it carefully and follow cross references which come up, Revelation chapter 12, the woman (nations are sometimes by the prophets referred to as women). She has twelve stars around her head (kind of like a halo? but not? 12 tribes?) - She gives birth to a manchild (Son of man?).

The dragon tries to devour this manchild, son of man as soon as he is born (in the person of Herod when he had all the male babies of Bethlehem killed??)

But, the man child (Son of man?) is caught up to God and His Throne - Hebrew 1:3 (I believe it is) says Christ (after ascending) now sits at the right hand of God.

Rev 12 also says this manchild will "rule the nations with a rod of iron" (the law and principals of God which are actually un-breakable, which is what we humans are learning). Psalm 2 has a "rod of iron" cross reference - "thiS is the decree.. I have set My King upon Zion.. nations as His inheritence.. to the very ends of the earth.. and He will rule them with a rod of iron" verses 2-9?

What happens next? after the manchild is lifted up to the Throne of God?
The dragon (that old serpent) in a rage pursues. This is implied, as the woman who has the twelve stars around her head "flees" and thus we come to 70 A.D. and the razing of Jerusalem, the end of an age, and now the new wearer of the mantle, Christianity (with both Jews aNd Greeks/nonJews) flees/migrates. Largely where? Where for the most part did Christianity go and grow and take the most root first?

Next, there is war in heaven and the dragon and the 1/3 are now denied any further access to heaven. After Christ's crucifixion and resurrection, the battle is won, and half the battle won is manifested upon earth. Jesus overcame those old 'gods' and Christianity went forth conquering and to conquer, which it does to this very day.

After he is restricted from heaven / the heavens, the dragon is enraged and again pursues and persecutes and inquisitions the woman (now Christianity, the grafted into Israel).

Again the woman flees, a second migration, when she is given the wings of a mighty eagle that she may fly (sail?) to a new place where, tho of course not yet perfected by a long shot, she will be kept safe from the FACE of the dragon for 3 and 1/2 (I assume, modern divisions of time).

After this time, the serpent guise of the dragon, spews a flood of water after the woman (vomits after her) in order to wash her away from off the face of the earth (an explosion and proliferation of a previously hidden social phenomenon? 3 and 1/2 modern divisions ='s 350? is 1620 to 1970? Note, the greek word translated "harlot" is actually "pornos" and one of its meanings is "to sell" - free enterprise, become capitalism, embraces "pornos" and leads all the world astray, another "woman" albeit by this time a global one, but I guess that's another Bk of Rev topic.)

But! the earth helps the woman, and opens its mouth and swallows the flood which "the dragon" spewed after the woman. This verse, to me, strongly suggests drought in late days. Especially if we consider what Jesus said when women were weeping while He was carrying His cross to be crucified - "women weep not for me but for children's children, for if they will do this in a green leaf" (crucify Him) "what will they do in a DRY leaf??"

After this the dragon turns his attention back to the woman's other offspring, Israel. Note how Jesus had said "Jerusalem, Jerusalem.. you shall not see me again, until you say "blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD". ---After the flood is swallowed by the earth, the dragon turns his attention (back to) the other offspring of the woman, who have the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus - aka, by now, "hold to the testimony of Jesus"? Cross reference Rev 16, verse 14,15 and 16 - (14)spirits gathering the nations to Armageddon (15)Behold I am coming like a thief, unexpectedly, happy the one who stays awake (16)And they gathered together to the place in Hebrew called Harmageddon.

I found it VERY interesting thanks for sharing !  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Lazarus Short on December 16, 2012, 08:43:23 PM
Folks, I'm confused.  I had gone along for years, like some kind of Pollyanna, thinking that by the end of the Bible account, everything was solved, justified, sanctified, glorified, and copacetic.  In my SDA years, I believed that after Death and Hell [the grave] have been cast into the LoF, after the New Jerusalem has come down, all is right with the world, the universe, man and God.  Furthermore, the problem of sin and evil had been resolved, and the Great Controversy between God and Satan had been settled in God's favor.  However, among the descriptions of thrones, rivers, fruits, pearly gates, and transparent gold, I got a shock the other day.

My wife and I have been going to the local United Methodist Church, largely because she wanted a church with a choir she could sing in.  So the other night, I was sitting in a pew by myself, and to pass the time I opened up the pew Bible and read the last few chapters of the Revelation.

I'm going to quote from The Unvarnished New Testament here, as it's one of my faves.  Here is what threw me:

[from the end of Chapter 21]  "And her gates are never shut...and they shall come bringing the honor and glory of all nations to her.  But nothing shall enter her that is polluted, nor anyone who commits abominations and lies:  only those who are written in the Book of Life of the Lamb."

Is that simply rhetorical and for emphasis to a sinful world, or are such people still around outside the City?

[more, from Chapter 22]  "Fortunate are those who wash their garments so they will have the right to the Tree of Life and go through the gates into the city.  Out with the low dogs and the practicers of magic and the promiscuous and the murderers and the idol-worshipers and everyone who approves or practices lying."

What are we to make of this?  Are the wicked still around and only barred from entry into the New Jerusalem?  Are the hinterlands still in sin?? :dontknow: :dunno2: :dontknow:

..this is some verses, out of not very many, that I think of as (sort of) allegory, in that forever and always it is unbreakable law and principal (rod of iron) that to disagree with God the Creator and Father of aLL, in any teeny tiny thing or way simply cannot be done, for that places one outside of Life, which of course, is God. Hence to do so only leads to non-life and non being, thus it is with a rod of iron Jesus will rule the nations, after this proving of good from evil(live spelled backwards).  :smile: