Are the Wicked in Paradise?

[sheila]

 :thumbsup: it takes the spirit of Christ to make atonement and open our understanding of the 'word of God'

  and it's proper interpretation and fulfillment as the word of God.[were our hearts not burning[lamb on altar]

as he was opening up the scriptures to us?

[Paul L]

author=reFORMer link=topic=10908.msg146651#msg146651 date=1356076892]

The Bible is a textbook, with a perfectly designated timeline for orders of events. Reading it in the haphazard manner you suggest is why my colleagues in the scientific community laugh at the aggregate confusion Christian eschatology revels  in. It's the creation of self serving contradictions exposited by these kinds of superfluous explanations which convinces the unbeliever that Christians are just crackpots.  Not your intent is it?

Certainly on such elevated persons as comprise the Scientific Community dipSINsationalism will have an effect opposite of generating faith in Jesus and His words.

Within the Scientific Community there are sharp lines of distinctions between those who are atheists & those who are not, it's about a 50/50 split. The atheist faction gets the favorable publicity.

As an example of order, the book of Revelation is divided in twain near the end of chapter eleven.

Really? Very interesting perspective........I'll look at this some more.

 

Replacement Theology has long been a repository trapping well meaning Christians into untenable positions.

....... "Replacement Theology" what history reveals was the theological position in so many churches for thousands of years.  This phrase "Replacement Theology" is meant to mean we are anti-Semitic

The Replacement Theology of Preterism was codified by the Papacy about 700 AD when he declared the Roman Catholic Church as the "one true church". Jews very soon after that became the focus of inquisition groups, a practice which roused many disparate non-Catholics, resulting in inquisitions carried forth against them as well.

"The dead and broken off branches," dipSINsationalists say are not dead nor broken off.  The truth is the "wicked husbandmen" were cast out of God's Vineyard which was given instead to "New Covenant husbandmen."  DipSINsationalists claim the wicked husbandmen will rule the earth while the ones giving the fruits will be relegated to "heaven."

Disparage "dispensationalism" all you like, but it is they who called out the anti-Semitic stand of the Catholic Church for exactly what it was. For all their faults, they have always been on a better track than Preterists whose roots are soaked in the blood of the inquisitions they fomented, you can't honestly make this same charge against Dispensationalists.

Nothing at all about seven END-TIME congregations in the book of the Lord.  I know at least some of those seven are gone many centuries ago.

What makes you come to this conclusion? This "church age" dogma was started by the Preterist "true church" precepts of the Catholic church by declaration of the Pope. Is this where you really want to go? Blood soaked inquisitions to promote this dogma became the fruits of this interpretation of the first three chapters Revelation. Unfortunately, even many "dispensationalists" have yet to dispense the shackles of church age fiction.

[ded2daworld]

I'm confused. It looks like you are quoting yourself and then commenting on your posts? :dontknow:

[Paul L]

I'm confused. It looks like you are quoting yourself and then commenting on your posts? :dontknow:

....the poster for whom the response is intended knows who is quoting whom.

[ded2daworld]

OH, okay :Chinscratch:

[eaglesway]

Posted to anyone who cares :o)


IMO The seven churches in revelation are protypes of churches existing in every generation since the the time John wrote until the time Jesus returns. Seeking to make the revelation of John about chronology is, again IMO, an error. There are a series if simultaneously occuring sequences in the revelation, all culminating in the second coming and intersperced with spiritual revelations hidden in pictures/types that communicate truths to those who have ears to hear in every generation. Truths about the church, about how the adversary works, about sonship and inheritance and priesthood, about how to overcome in this age and how to walk in the spirit and fellowship in the mystery- hidden wisdom the rulers of this age cannot understand or they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory.

[Paul L]

Posted to anyone who cares :o)


IMO The seven churches in revelation are protypes of churches existing in every generation since the the time John wrote until the time Jesus returns.

So, my query continues to be the sources of these opinions. There is absolutely zero in the Revelation text to support ages of the Christian church that I have ever been able to locate.

Flowery language about hidden pictures/types that communicate truths, is not  an approach that instills confidence in the minds of common sense driven people to follow that preacher to the jungles of Guyana. Jim Jones had an opinion, and look what it cost the people who followed his opinions.     

[micah7:9]

Well, "they" bought into his opinion. And "they" had their own common sense (?), which aligned with his opinion.  Sad, yet it ain't over, yet.

[sheila]

ok  so you have a problem with types and hidden pictures that communicate truth.

   then you are like those who are stumbled and left Jesus when He said..'unless you drink my blood

  and eat my flesh you have no life in you.

  now,was this a hidden picture? did not literal-mindedness stumble..

   the blood and bread of the covenant...as long as ye eat of this and drink of this cup..ye proclaim

the death of Christ until His return..........[those awaiting His return].....

  this example isn't very 'flowery' but I think it will suffice.

   
"

[sheila]

 two wittness's prophesy..body..and blood..beastly carnal thinking kills the testimony..it lays

as dead for three days..........[destroy this temple and I will raise it on the third day]...

  but after 31/2 days a breath of life from God entered them..and they stood on their feet

   .........then they heard a loud voice from heaven 'Come up Here] and they went to heaven in a cloud....

.

       

[eaglesway]

Posted to anyone who cares :o)


IMO The seven churches in revelation are protypes of churches existing in every generation since the the time John wrote until the time Jesus returns.

So, my query continues to be the sources of these opinions. There is absolutely zero in the Revelation text to support ages of the Christian church that I have ever been able to locate.

Flowery language about hidden pictures/types that communicate truths, is not  an approach that instills confidence in the minds of common sense driven people to follow that preacher to the jungles of Guyana. Jim Jones had an opinion, and look what it cost the people who followed his opinions.   

I agree with you about the ages of the christian church. I was saying that they are prototypes of churches, in general, in every generation. In other words- There have always been churches like the ones Jesus spoke to through John and there are churches like them today.

However I disagree with your characterization of the types and shadows in revelation as a very immature view of the word of prophecy. Let me give an example.

Do you really think there will be a giant messenger(Rev 10) standing with one foot on the land and one foot on the sea with clothed in a cloud with his head in heaven surrounded by a rainbow?

Do you really think there will be a woman clothed with the sun standing on the moon with twelve stars on her head and with a man-child about to come forth from her womb- or a dragon standing at ready to swallow the manchild with a flood?

In the language of the prophets, with which you seem to be very unfamiliar, all of these images communicate truths that we must receive in order to overcome in these last days.

Do you really believe there is a giant building coming down out of heaven and that it is clothed in real physical white linen- the righteous acts of the saints?

All of these images are built of words from earlier writings. They are expressions of spiritual realities in the church of Jesus Christ.

Many of those images are expounded upon in Ephesians for instance.  The church is the woman  clothed with the sun(the fulness of Him who fills all in all Eph 1).  The giant messenger is the ONE NEW MAN is(Eph 2:15). The man-child is revealed in Ephesians 4, "until we all attain to the unity of the faith, unto a mature man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of the son of God". The Bride in Ephesians 5, "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless(clothed in white linen, the righteous acts of the saints).  Then there are overcomers, clad in the full armor of God in Ephesians 6. I don't want to debate or write a book about this- but the book of revelation is more than a collection of end time predictions by a long shot, and it has been ALIVE in EVERY GENERATION FOR NEARLY 2000 YEARS, for those who have ears to hear what the Spirit is saying.

This is the language of John's revelation and it requires familiarity with the prophetic language of the whole of the scriptures to understand- and it was never for the future alone. It was always "living and active and sharper than any two edged sword for the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, bone and marrow, making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart, for all things are laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do". Apocalypse, Unveiling, Hidden Wisdom, Beautiful and Overflowing with vision and revelation TODAY.

"And His Eyes are as flames of fire......and a two edged sword comes out of His mouth".

You consider this flowery language? :o) perhaps so. Flowers full of the aroma of the life of Christ like trees planted by the streams of water bearing fruit of eternal life and leaves for the healing of the nations, oops, that's psalm 1

or a river of life flowing from beneath the throne.....oops, that's John chapter 7

Let the one who has ears to hear hear what the Spirit IS SAYING (like now today, if you hear His voice) TO THE CHURCHES.



And you all, as living stones are being built together into a dwelling place of God(coming down out of the heavens like a Bride adorned for the bridegroom) in the Spirit.1 Pet 2:5

[thinktank]

Do you really think there will be a giant messenger(Rev 10) standing with one foot on the land and one foot on the sea with clothed in a cloud with his head in heaven surrounded by a rainbow?
--------------

That giant you  speak of is Archangel Michael.

That dragon is satan. No one knows what satan looks like.

That woman gives birth to christians, apart from the Father and Jesus who else is involved with our maturing into the fullness of Christ.

[eaglesway]

Maybe TT :o)

I saw another strong angel coming down out of heaven, clothed with a cloud; and the rainbow was upon his head, and his face was like the sun, and his feet like pillars of fire; and he had in his hand a little book which was open. He placed his right foot on the sea and his left on the land; and he cried out with a loud voice, as when a lion roars; and when he had cried out, the seven peals of thunder uttered their voices.
(Rev 10:1-3)


But I personally don't think Michael is clothed in the clouds (we are surrounded by "so great a cloud of witnesses")
it is our head who is in heaven(Jesus is head over all things to the church, His body, the fulness of Him who fills all in all) and His throne is surrounded by a rainbow(Rev 4:2,3)-

I agree, the dragon is Satan- but he is working through "the craftiness and deceitful scheming of men" by which we are "no longer tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine"(the flood out of the dragons mouth) if we are mature, having entered into the man-child- wearing the full armor of God and doing battle with the dragon :o)- but these are just my own opinions

The last part you wrote- we are in complete  agreement about I think :o) the woman is the church, His body giving birth, gestating a man-child who will do battle with the dragon after the woman is carried away on the wings of the great eagle. Her womb is the place where mature disciples are grown.

And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ(man-child). As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine(flood), by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming(dragon); but speaking the truth in love(maturity), we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head(sonship), even Christ, from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part(priesthood), causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love(clothed in white linen).

:2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c:

[reFORMer]

Disparage "dispensationalism" all you like, but it is they who called out the anti-Semitic stand of the Catholic Church for exactly what it was. For all their faults, they have always been on a better track than Preterists whose roots are soaked in the blood of the inquisitions they fomented, you can't honestly make this same charge against Dispensationalists.

"The distinguishing "chosen race" or "racial salvation" philosophy of first century Phariseeism resulted from their abject spiritual poverty.  Natural minds seldom transcend natural things.  Their fleshly and materialistic minds easily adapted themselves to a literalistic or materialistic interpretation of prophecy.  It was Pharisaic literalism, said Dr. E. W. Hengstenberg, in his Christology, that led the unregenerate, natural minded Pharisees to reject the New Testament Kingdom of God and to crucify the King." --- p. 28, Whither Israeli? by Cecil J. Lowry

Nothing at all about seven END-TIME congregations in the book of the Lord.  I know at least some of those seven are gone many centuries ago.

What makes you come to this conclusion? This "church age" dogma was started by the Preterist "true church" precepts of the Catholic church by declaration of the Pope. Is this where you really want to go? Blood soaked inquisitions to promote this dogma became the fruits of this interpretation of the first three chapters Revelation. Unfortunately, even many "dispensationalists" have yet to dispense the shackles of church age fiction.

A common proverbial saying is to the effect that rat poison is 99% good wheat.  No self-respecting rat would eat pure poison.  I don't know anything else to do in good conscience but accept those things occurring in history in fulfillment of Bible prophecy in the two thousand years since the scripture as we have it was written.  If kooks and religious devils use such knowledge to excuse wicked deeds (in defiance of the clear teaching of the author of scripture) it cannot invalidate the facts.

There is some truth in all the major interpretations of Revelation, for instance.  Preterist, Historicist, Futurist, and Symbolist, when corrected, have some things right.  This is part of the depth of scripture.  To examine these various viewpoints is to do your homework.  That doesn't mean you'll thereby find what God has in store for you to hear, from His mouth to your ear.  It just gets you ready and shows you care.  "God gives His gifts to those who appreciates them," is what I believe He told me years ago.

[Paul L]

author=reFORMer link=topic=10908.msg146732#msg146732 date=1356160318]

A common proverbial saying is to the effect that rat poison is 99% good wheat.  No self-respecting rat would eat pure poison.

What's the "poison" in this case to which you make reference?

I don't know anything else to do in good conscience but accept those things occurring in history in fulfillment of Bible prophecy in the two thousand years since the scripture as we have it was written.

Provide an example of what you are making reference to......

If kooks and religious devils use such knowledge to excuse wicked deeds (in defiance of the clear teaching of the author of scripture) it cannot invalidate the facts.

What "knowledge" are you referring to? Providing a few examples would go a long way in establishing exactly what you mean.

There is some truth in all the major interpretations of Revelation, for instance.  Preterist, Historicist, Futurist, and Symbolist, when corrected, have some things right.

So give by example how a position taken by a Preterist can be "corrected" to "have some things right" ? Don't forget, they believe everything in Revelation has been fulfilled, the millenium started about 70 AD, but upon doing the math we are presently over a thousand years beyond the millenium. How do you propose this be "corrected"?[/quote]

[sheila]

 my  :2c:  by recognizing that the camp of the Holy city in the earth is a church. camp of God..Mahanaim

    and that the seven angels of the churches and the lampstand[7  has an eighth that comes of it.....

  just as Babylon has an eighth king that comes of the seven/God has His Holy counterpart.

   Micah 5;5   Promised ruler....and He will be their peace. When the Assyrian invades our land and

  marches through our fortresses,we will raise against him 7 shepherds..even eight leaders of men

   Bread upon the waters  Ecc 11  cast your bread upon the waters for after many days you will find it again

  Give portions to seven,yes to eight,for you do not know what disaster may come upon the land

Genesis 17;12 for the generations to come..every male among you who is eight days old must be

circumcized........[manchild day of circumcision]

   Ezekiel 40;31...eight steps led up to it

  Ezekiel 43;27  at the end of these days..from the eigth day on..the priests are to present your

burnt offerings and fellowship offerings on the alter,then I will accept you,says the Sovereign Lord

  when the 1000 yrs are over satan is released..but look a Great White throne where earth and sky fled from

His presence[eighth day-death gives up it's dead]

[Paul L]

Well, "they" bought into his opinion. And "they" had their own common sense (?), which aligned with his opinion.  Sad, yet it ain't over, yet.

.....and you may unfortunately be right. As recently as only 70 years ago, 6 million innocents lost their lives in Nazi death camps under the auspices of a Christian vicar whose silence made him nothing less than complicit. So much for the fruits of the Preteristic roots of Replacement Theology & the insanity it has inspired for 1500 years.

[Paul L]

author=sheila link=topic=10908.msg146710#msg146710 date=1356134873]

ok  so you have a problem with types and hidden pictures that communicate truth.

The 900 people who followed Jim Jones into that jungle in Guyana had no problem with this flowery fluff did they?  Is that where you want to go? Or maybe you'd find this sort of platitude more plalatable when applied to 6 million Jews so long as you were not one of the prison guards? None of these had "a problem with types and hidden pictures that communicate truth", then came the aftermath of believing in the pretty dressed up pictures communicating all these so-called Biblical truths which fomented the replacement theology of Preterism.

now,was this a hidden picture? did not literal-mindedness stumble..

If you have such great passion to be caught up in the quagmires that the replacement theology of Preterism has wreaked upon the western world of Christendom through all its interpretations of "types and hidden pictures that communicate truth", then standby, you just never know when you may get a chance to donate your willingness for doing so.

.......this example isn't very 'flowery' but I think it will suffice.

I know........   

[eaglesway]

Unfortunately Paul, you seem to be under the opinion that anyone who doesnt agree with your point of view is apart of some "preterist conspiracy". Maybe even a part of a cult like Jonestown. The book of revelations requires interpretation, regardless of any opinion to the contrary. Your interpretation is acceptable for discussion on the forum. I havent heard anyone compare your views to the vilest images that could be dredged up. You are going to have to tone down your rhetoric and get in an attitude of discussing differing viewpoints on the scriptures if you want to continue participating in the forum.

[ded2daworld]

Paul, are you saying that a belief in preterism caused the 6 million jews to be destroyed at the Nazi death camps?
I've heard it blamed on evolution because Hitler believed he could create a superior race but maybe he was a preterist too.

[Paul L]

author=eaglesway link=topic=10908.msg146717#msg146717 date=1356145258]

IMO The seven churches in revelation are protypes of churches existing in every generation since the the time John wrote until the time Jesus returns.

So, my query continues to be the sources of these opinions. There is absolutely zero in the Revelation text to support ages of the Christian church that I have ever been able to locate.

Flowery language about hidden pictures/types that communicate truths, is not  an approach that instills confidence in the minds of common sense driven people to follow that preacher to the jungles of Guyana. Jim Jones had an opinion, and look what it cost the people who followed his opinions.   

I agree with you about the ages of the christian church. I was saying that they are prototypes of churches, in general, in every generation. In other words- There have always been churches like the ones Jesus spoke to through John and there are churches like them today.

......but Christ is not talking to John about churches that once were........he is talking to John about ecclesias that exist as described in Rev 1:10-11....."on the Lord's day" to seven congregations in seven different cities in Asia. You're so hung up in the past with your "ages" that you're unable to see the future.

However I disagree with your characterization of the types and shadows in revelation as a very immature view of the word of prophecy. Let me give an example.

I haven't presented any "types and shadows in revelation" as you erroneously state, but if you want to go there:

Do you really think there will be a giant messenger(Rev 10) standing with one foot on the land and one foot on the sea with clothed in a cloud with his head in heaven surrounded by a rainbow?

Yep...........It is probably Michael, for it is he who is Israel's protectorate, Dan 12:1 Rev 12:7, 9. God's angelic messengers are very literal & real & he can make them any size it so suits him.

Do you really think there will be a woman clothed with the sun standing on the moon with twelve stars on her head and with a man-child about to come forth from her womb- or a dragon standing at ready to swallow the manchild with a flood?

Sure, unless evidence to the contrary can be presented. Do you have some text from scripture in support of it being symbolic? If you do, put it forth.

In the language of the prophets, with which you seem to be very unfamiliar,

..........this manner of strident language from you is why I would be recalcitrant to follow Preterists such as yourself into the jungles of Guyana or the Nazi death camps, I already know it's suicide & murder.

Do you really believe there is a giant building coming down out of heaven and that it is clothed in real physical white linen

You mean I shouldn't? Why is that?

All of these images are built of words from earlier writings. They are expressions of spiritual realities in the church of Jesus Christ.

When the Preterist inquisitors were stoking the bonfires around their bound & helpless victims, they too were mindful "of spiritual realities in the church of Jesus Christ", or maybe 900 people on a merry stroll behind Jim Jones into the jungle were thinking the same thing?

Yeah, keep going.........

Many of those images are expounded upon in Ephesians for instance.

The church is the woman  clothed with the sun(the fulness of Him who fills all in all Eph 1).

And what is the crown of 12 stars on her head symbolic of concerning the Christian church? I don't see that explained in Eph 1. The context of Rev 12 as well as old testament prophecies identify the woman as Israel, but I know that is anathema to Replacement Theology proffered by the Pope.

The giant messenger is the ONE NEW MAN is(Eph 2:15).

What is the "giant messenger" you're referring to? The one in Rev 10? That's Michael, not me, not you, or however manner you attempt to link scripture together which bear no relevance to one another.

The man-child is revealed in Ephesians 4, "until we all attain to the unity of the faith, unto a mature man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of the son of God".

The Bride in Ephesians 5, "Husbands, love your wives,

A "bride" is not a wife ("wives"). Look it up in Strong's Concordance.

Then there are overcomers, clad in the full armor of God in Ephesians 6. I don't want to debate or write a book about this- but the book of revelation is more than a collection of end time predictions by a long shot

Then why don't you make cogent connections between the two books. You couldn't even make a proper distinction between "bride" & "wives" with your digression. Based on that alone, why should I care what the Pope thinks about anything?

This is the language of John's revelation and it requires familiarity with the prophetic language of the whole of the scriptures to understand

.......and the places to start are the prophetic sections of the Old Testament.

[Paul L]

Paul, are you saying that a belief in preterism caused the 6 million jews to be destroyed at the Nazi death camps?
I've heard it blamed on evolution because Hitler believed he could create a superior race but maybe he was a preterist too.

He was Catholic. Don't believe the discredited nonsense he was Jewish, or that he was fathered by a Jewish man who had raped his mother.

[ded2daworld]

So was Hitler a preterist, a Catholic that went to mass weekly and confessed to the priest? or did he really run the church so to speak as the priests did what they were told. Is there ANY evidence he was a preterist and if so is there ANY evidence the preterist belief caused him to destroy 6 million?

[sheila]

  WHO THEN IS THE FAITHFUL AND WISE SERVANT,WHOM THE MASTER HAS PUT IN CHARGE OF THE SERVANTS

  OF HIS HOUSEHOLD TO GIVE THEM THEIR FOOD AT THE PROPER TIME.? IT WILL BE GOOD FOR

THAT SERVANT IF HIS MASTER FINDS HIM DOING SO WHEN HE RETURNS.......

  BUT SUPPOSE THAT SERVANT IS WICKED AND SAYS TO HIMSELF...'MY MASTER IS DELAYING A LONG TIME"

  AND HE THEN BEGINS TO BEAT HIS FELLOW SERVANTS AND TO EAT AND DRINK WITH THE DRUNKARDS

    THE MASTER OF THAT SERVANT WILL COME ON A DAY THAT HE DOES NOT EXPECT HIM,AT AN

  HOUR THAT HE DOES NOT EXPECT. HE WILL CUT HIM TO PEICES AND ASSIGN HIM A PLACE

WITH THE HYPOCRITES.WHERE THERE WILL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH.


   FEED MY SHEEP.....i 2WAS HUNGRY AND YOU GIVE ME SOMETHING TO EAT,IN PRISON AND

  YOU VISITED ME,THIRSTY AND YOU GIVE ME SOMETHING TO DRINK, I NEEDED CLOTHES

AND YE CLOTHED ME..SICK AND YOU LOOKED AFTER ME.


    IT IS VERY IMPORTANT HOW WE TREAT PEOPLE..YOU DO NOT GATHER FIGS FROM THORNS

  NOW,DOES THIS PICTURE AND TYPE COMMUNICATE TRUTH?  pARABLES ARE TYPES AND PICTURES

USED OF cHRIST TO COMMUNICATE TRUTH..THOSE WHO HAVE EARS TO HEAR 'HEAR'



AS UNTIL i AM CLOTHED IN IMMORTALITY IN CELESTAIL BODY i AM NOT FINISHED IN THE IMAGE

OF cHRIST]ALSO...AGES OF THE CHURCH MEAN NOTHING TO ME..SIMPLY PUT i SEE THE AGE OF LAW

THE AGE OF GRACE FOLLOWED BY ETERNAL INCORRUPT IMMORTALITY.

SO IS YOUR CONCERN THAT PRETERIST VEIWS BRING FORTH WICKED SERVANT CLASSES?

AND YES 1000 YR REICH OF PURE PEOPLE WAS HITLER'S PLAN, HAVE SEEN THIS.....SAME AS

JIM JONES,INQUISITION..ALL WICKED SERVANT CLASSES..THAT DID NOT SERVE AND MINISTER

TO GOD'S PEOPLE BUT BEAT AND BECOME DRUNK/BABYLON POWER/RULE OVER PEOPLE

[Paul L]

So was Hitler a preterist, a Catholic that went to mass weekly and confessed to the priest? or did he really run the church so to speak as the priests did what they were told. Is there ANY evidence he was a preterist and if so is there ANY evidence the preterist belief caused him to destroy 6 million?

I've yet to meet a Catholic that isn't Preterist.....it's the cornerstone of the religion.