satan is saved?

[omantodd2000]

oman, it is not a matter of being too bold to declare. It is stating as absolute fact rather than your opinion. You have studied for years I'm sure. Many of us have studied a subject for years and then found after years of study - our conclusions had been wrong. If you stay with just the instances in which the Bible mentions Satan, you will find some seeming contradictions.

I've read books from cults that will take 40 or 50 or 100 pages to "explain" one verse but what they are really doing is trying to convince others of a pet theory. I'm not saying there is anying wrong with this but IMO with the Bible, Occams Razor, (The simplest and most straightforward) reading is what is most likely true.

One more thing, Has this "special knowledge" of Satan helped you be a better, more caring, more loving person? Or does it make you feel somewhat superior for knowing more than others on a particular subject.

E.G. I don't care what Catholics say about Mary. She was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus our lord and that's about all is mentioned about her. Why? Because she is a very small part of what it is important to know. If you take the Catholic view that she is the "Queen of heaven" The "Mother of God" and that SHE was "born of a virgin" herself, the scant mention she has is blown way out of proportion and cannot be backed biblically.

Ded2world it is about rightly dividing the truth as we are commanded to do. I don't declare things I have not understood to be true. If it is a topic I am unsure of in anyway I keep researching it. This one happens to be so simple, it takes one verse "but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. The satan that temps Christ is just personified sin, the bible uses personification multiple times, not just this once. Love is the most important thing to do but it does not make everything else of no value. God gave us the bible to study it, and to seek out the truth and to come to a knowledge of it. If we go around declaring falsehood about the scripture to other believers and non-believers then how does that help anyone, and how does it build up? When I am questioned by non believers I am able to defend the bible and show often times logical people who have written off the bible that it is not always what it seems.

I disagree with you any of you who say Jesus was not a man like we are, because the bible says he was. he was tempted in every way, just as we are. This is the whole point of Christ, he was tempted like we are, yet was without sin. Sure God created him for this purpose to be strong enough to resist but he still had to feel the strain of resisting the temptation or else what is the point. Just before he was crucified you can see the pain he goes through in the garden trying to reason a way out of being crucified but in the end submits to God will. He is obedient even unto death.

Jesus coming in the flesh is extremely important to understand, "Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist." "For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man," 

[ded2daworld]

My point Oman is that you understanding a subject to be true after years of study
still does not make it true. Members in the forum discussion are encouraged to express
opinions. If you are an authority on a subject - write a book, if you are expressing
yourself on a discussion forum, it is IMO or  :2c:
No absolutes. Fine to quote the bible and we encourage this, but don't tell us what it means, tell us what you think it means.

[Molly]

I guess for me, what those who consider Satan man's carnal nature really miss is that we are at the epicenter of a war in heaven between good and evil, and we are being thwarted, frustrated, and attacked by the bad guys and cheered on, watched, and helped by the good guys.



For I suppose that God has appointed us Apostles at last, as for death, that we would be a stage play for the universe, for Angels and for men.

--1 Cor 4:9


They were told that their messages were not for themselves, but for you. And now this Good News has been announced to you by those who preached in the power of the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. It is all so wonderful that even the angels are eagerly watching these things happen.  1 Peter 1:12


His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,

--Eph 3:10

[sheila]

Amen Molly!

 

[omantodd2000]

My point Oman is that you understanding a subject to be true after years of study
still does not make it true. Members in the forum discussion are encouraged to express
opinions. If you are an authority on a subject - write a book, if you are expressing
yourself on a discussion forum, it is IMO or  :2c:
No absolutes. Fine to quote the bible and we encourage this, but don't tell us what it means, tell us what you think it means.

This is where we have confusion, it is not my opinion. It is clearly stated in the bible in plain language."but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed." I am simply quoting the bible, it says man is tempted by his own desires, not his own desires and fallen angels, God, other men, or anything else. "
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses,
but we have one who has been Tempted In Every Way, Just As We Are--yet was ... " There is no opinions involved in this, if you can find contrary scripture that says anything other than this THEN it would be based in my opinion. However since we have facts 1. Jesus was tempted  just as we are 2. We are only tempted by our own desires. From these two facts we can draw a factual conclusion, he was tempted by an adversary that is his own desires. If you want to argue with reason or simply because you do not like how I proclaim something as a fact instead of my opinion then that is up to you but I'm sorry it does not take away from it being a fact.

[micah7:9]

"2. We are only tempted by our own desires. From these two facts we can draw a factual conclusion, he was tempted by an adversary that is his own desires."

Rom 8:20  For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21  Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Should you my friend, desire to believe that your carnal mind is your adversary then be free to do so.

[ded2daworld]

 Oman said " 1. Jesus was tempted  just as we are 2. We are only tempted by our own desires    From these two facts we can draw a factual conclusion, he was tempted by an adversary that is his own desires. If you want to argue with reason or simply because you do not like how I proclaim something as a fact instead of my opinion then that is up to you but I'm sorry it does not take away from it being a fact."

Faulty logic.  For example, Since the bible clearly states that "everone has sinned and falls short of the glory of God" and Jesus is just like us, then it is a clear established bible proven fact that Jesus sinned.
You know, I never even said whether or not I disagree with you. As moderator, it's kinda my job to make sure things stay civil and this remains a discussion forum. Not a debate or argument website or where people can make bold statements as if what they were saying was what God didn't get a chance to tell us previously.

[eaglesway]

Eaglesway,Satan does not always mean our lower self or desires of the flesh. It is an adversary and can mean anything that is an adversary depending on the context of the verse it is in. Sometimes it is the flesh, Pharisees,romans,or even an angel of God that stood as an adversary to Balaam. One thing it is never is a fallen angel or the mythical creature that people associate him with. I am sorry if you find me to bold on the topic declaring what it means, I only do this because I have studied this for years. I am not going to debate you on it, you are free to disagree with me on any or all points I have made. Just take them as my opinion on the topic and study it for yourself and draw your own conclusions. I would never want anyone to take anything I say as fact and not look it up for themselves.

Nor would I. We must all study to show ourselves approved. As to whether Satan is a myth- that is your opinion, as you stated- and that is more in line with the forum guidelines. We have all studied for years here :o). None of us has "the unalterable truth" as far as I can see. The goal is to discuss our differences of opinion in a conversational, not confrontational, tone.

For instance, the idea you present that an angel of God could have been Balaam's adversary but that the idea of Satan as a spiritual being and adversary is "never" possible seems rather out of sync.

In one way I agree with you though. "Every man sins when he is drawn away by his own lusts....."

Altho I do believe that Satan is an actual spiritual being, i believe his only access to us is through our own lusts. Neither do I believe he is behind all the evil in the world. There is also evil in man himself, self initiated.

[omantodd2000]

Oman said " 1. Jesus was tempted  just as we are 2. We are only tempted by our own desires    From these two facts we can draw a factual conclusion, he was tempted by an adversary that is his own desires. If you want to argue with reason or simply because you do not like how I proclaim something as a fact instead of my opinion then that is up to you but I'm sorry it does not take away from it being a fact."

Faulty logic.  For example, Since the bible clearly states that "everone has sinned and falls short of the glory of God" and Jesus is just like us, then it is a clear established bible proven fact that Jesus sinned.
You know, I never even said whether or not I disagree with you. As moderator, it's kinda my job to make sure things stay civil and this remains a discussion forum. Not a debate or argument website or where people can make bold statements as if what they were saying was what God didn't get a chance to tell us previously.

Your  faulty logic argument is incorrect because the bible clearly tells us he didn't sin. It is about putting all the pieces together, not taking one piece of information and excluding the others. So we would have the knowledge that all men have sinned, but also the knowledge that Jesus was without sin. Again two facts that add up to All men have sinned, apart from Jesus who has not. Unlike this example I did not exclude any information from my argument.

I am simply trying to show you that not everything is opinion, there are things that are opinion and others that are facts. We should take facts for facts and not argue about things clearly stated in the bible. 

[omantodd2000]

Eaglesway,Satan does not always mean our lower self or desires of the flesh. It is an adversary and can mean anything that is an adversary depending on the context of the verse it is in. Sometimes it is the flesh, Pharisees,romans,or even an angel of God that stood as an adversary to Balaam. One thing it is never is a fallen angel or the mythical creature that people associate him with. I am sorry if you find me to bold on the topic declaring what it means, I only do this because I have studied this for years. I am not going to debate you on it, you are free to disagree with me on any or all points I have made. Just take them as my opinion on the topic and study it for yourself and draw your own conclusions. I would never want anyone to take anything I say as fact and not look it up for themselves.

Nor would I. We must all study to show ourselves approved. As to whether Satan is a myth- that is your opinion, as you stated- and that is more in line with the forum guidelines. We have all studied for years here :o). None of us has "the unalterable truth" as far as I can see. The goal is to discuss our differences of opinion in a conversational, not confrontational, tone.

For instance, the idea you present that an angel of God could have been Balaam's adversary but that the idea of Satan as a spiritual being and adversary is "never" possible seems rather out of sync.

In one way I agree with you though. "Every man sins when he is drawn away by his own lusts....."

Altho I do believe that Satan is an actual spiritual being, i believe his only access to us is through our own lusts. Neither do I believe he is behind all the evil in the world. There is also evil in man himself, self initiated.

Well you are free to hold that as your opinion but you will not be able to back it up with scripture.   I also believed in a physical satan for most of my life, so did many other Christians. When I first heard someone tell me there is no satan i was like oh sure right, Satan wants you to believe that, then he wins. However I studied the topic and had to change my mind and that is why I am telling you. God does not want us as Christians to believe incorrect things. Also I would add that the NT says "This testimony is true therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith and will pay no attention to JEWISH MYTHS or to the commands of those who reject the truth." The idea that satan is a physical being was not believed by Jews in the past and most don't believe in that now. It was part of their Jewish mythology made up around the time of Jesus. After that some people started to believe it and had to be rebuked. Much of it is written in the book of Enoch, well known jewish folklore.

[dajomaco]

 Now a long way off from them, a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31 "If You drive us out," the demons begged Him, "send us into the herd of pigs."

32 "Go!" He told them. So when they had come out, they entered the pigs.

The demon possesed pigs killed them selves because of there own desires leading them away?

[sheila]

I don't believe in a physical satan/it is you that publish that as the lusts in our physical body

  and mind, being the adversary.   I believe in a wicked evil spirit adversary that does tempt man,deceive

man/afflict man/blind man/cripple man, enter man; and put to death man in the image of God.

  some he enters..some it is another human he enters to put you to death.

   Satan is an evil spirit used as a negative wicked contrast to the good/holy spirit of God......to educate

the children of God in this exercize of good/evil contrast

  WE WAR NOT AGAINST FLESH AND BLOOD.

  a physical satan? you call him that when you say it is the evil desires of our flesh

[lomarah]

I don't believe in a physical satan/it is you that publish that as the lusts in our physical body

  and mind, being the adversary.   I believe in a wicked evil spirit adversary that does tempt man,deceive

man/afflict man/blind man/cripple man, enter man; and put to death man in the image of God.

  some he enters..some it is another human he enters to put you to death.

   Satan is an evil spirit used as a negative wicked contrast to the good/holy spirit of God......to educate

the children of God in this exercize of good/evil contrast

  WE WAR NOT AGAINST FLESH AND BLOOD.

  a physical satan? you call him that when you say it is the evil desires of our flesh

WOW. That opened my eyes.

[micah7:9]

I don't believe in a physical satan/it is you that publish that as the lusts in our physical body

  and mind, being the adversary.   I believe in a wicked evil spirit adversary that does tempt man,deceive

man/afflict man/blind man/cripple man, enter man; and put to death man in the image of God.

  some he enters..some it is another human he enters to put you to death.

   Satan is an evil spirit used as a negative wicked contrast to the good/holy spirit of God......to educate

the children of God in this exercize of good/evil contrast

  WE WAR NOT AGAINST FLESH AND BLOOD.

  a physical satan? you call him that when you say it is the evil desires of our flesh

:dsunny:

[omantodd2000]

Now a long way off from them, a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31 "If You drive us out," the demons begged Him, "send us into the herd of pigs."

32 "Go!" He told them. So when they had come out, they entered the pigs.

The demon possesed pigs killed them selves because of there own desires leading them away?

When they came to Jesus, they saw the man who had been possessed by the legion of demons, sitting there, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid.

Once the demons were cast out he is described as being in his right mind, he had all the symptoms of what we today would call a schizophrenic.

Cast out is an Aramaic phrase which means restore to sanity, you can read about this if you pick up any George Lamsa book on Idioms. I believe he also has some interesting things to say about why it was the swine that they were cast into.

[Molly]

I think the flesh makes us susceptible to the evil spirits of Satan and his minions.

This would be why when we walk in spirit instead of in flesh we are not susceptible.

It would also be why we are to put on the [spiritual] armor of God every day--because our enemy is spiritual, not flesh and blood.

Jesus, of course, was the most spirit filled man who ever walked the face of the earth.  He had the Spirit without measure.

Because Jesus has condemned sin in the flesh, we are able to walk in the spirit, and these evil spirits are subjected to us in his name.


Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in union with the Messiah Jesus.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

--Rom 8:1-2

[dajomaco]

Now a long way off from them, a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31 "If You drive us out," the demons begged Him, "send us into the herd of pigs."

32 "Go!" He told them. So when they had come out, they entered the pigs.

The demon possesed pigs killed them selves because of there own desires leading them away?

When they came to Jesus, they saw the man who had been possessed by the legion of demons, sitting there, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid.

Once the demons were cast out he is described as being in his right mind, he had all the symptoms of what we today would call a schizophrenic.

Cast out is an Aramaic phrase which means restore to sanity, you can read about this if you pick up any George Lamsa book on Idioms. I believe he also has some interesting things to say about why it was the swine that they were cast into.

So a group of pigs got schizophrenia from two different men.
Pigs with schizophrenia kill them selves .

[eaglesway]

wow, oman, you gotta go a long way to get to schizophrenic pigs committing suicide. I find that much harder to believe than disembodied spirits or demons.  :laugh:

[omantodd2000]

wow, oman, you gotta go a long way to get to schizophrenic pigs committing suicide. I find that much harder to believe than disembodied spirits or demons.  :laugh:

It was the man that was schizophrenic not the pigs. I just realized that I am basically trying to explain to children why the boogie man does not exist.

[jabcat]

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[omantodd2000]

I found another post on this forum where the person asked in 2010, Who is Satan?  I would suggest you all should read it from the start and see what others have to say on the topic. Here is one I especially liked and is very eloquently written.

"And here in this thread lies the perfect example of what sound does.  Everyone is singing the song of spiritual sound.  Each may sing a different note, but each note harmonizes with the others and the song of what's being said rings true.  I relate to every one of your thoughts and posts. 

Satan is not what Jesus called Peter.  The translators chose that word, the original word Jesus said to Peter was "adversary".  Which is what one of the previous posts here eluded to.  When Jesus was tempted in the wilderness . . .the king of darkness, as tradition percieves satan to be . . .the king of darkness has NOTHING that would ever tempt Jesus.  Yet Scripture says he indeed was tempted.

However, when we see Jesus, as God who manifests fully in flesh, we then can understand that even in the fleshly manifestation of Jesus was a carnal thinking mind that needed to be aligned before his ministry could affect the world as originally intended.  Jesus needed to put his flesh into submission and that's all that was happening in the wilderness. 

From the serpent in the garden of Genesis to the dragon in Revelation this carnal force has been in existance in every mind of man.  It's the most subtle "beast" in all the field.  This was not a depiction of natural snakes, but it "is" a principle of how carnality works in our lives.  Satan is the carnal force subtly at work in my mind.  Which means it works just under my awareness.  My mind is dependant on knowledge, carnality is the governing force that influences my natural mind, thus making it an adversary to the nature of God. 


Satan is what my carnal mind is . . .it's an adversary.  The "devil" is what my mind "does".  The authors of Scripture never used "devil" either.  What they did use was "traducer" which is our term for "accuser".  My carnal mind accuses me night and day of my shortcomings and my failures.  Quoting Scriptures may win the battle, but the war continues on.  It's not until we exercise the authority in us and command the alignment to manifest that we finally shut the enemy down all together.  That's what Jesus did with Peter when he called him satan and that's what Jesus did with his own mind in the wilderness.  "Get thee behind me" is a decree of alignment."

[micah7:9]

In my understanding, the adversary "uses" the carnal mind [the carnal mind is the channel] but the adversary/traducer is not the carnal mind. My understanding/opinion.

[ded2daworld]

Oman said, "When Jesus was tempted in the wilderness . . .the king of darkness, as tradition percieves satan to be . . .the king of darkness has NOTHING that would ever tempt Jesus.  Yet Scripture says he indeed was tempted."

So you can either deny scripture says Jesus was tempted by satan or the alternative would be where it says satan has nothing that would tempt Jesus.
It's possible that satan has nothing to tempt Jesus because satan has nothing. period. nothing that Jesus didn't give him or allow him.

Being tempted to turn stones into bread is not an evil desire since food is a requirement for life. Doing it because satan suggested it however, is never a good idea - especially when the forty days is a time of testing and Jesus passed the test of putting the will of the father before his own.

[Molly]

I wonder if anyone thinks that Satan was testing Jesus because he doubted that Jesus was the Son of God?

He tries to get Jesus to perform miracles [stone to bread], jump off a pinnacle and caught by angels, and worship him.

Jesus, who could have presumably done all of these things, refused.

But, what would have happened had Jesus agreed to any of them?

How would things have been different?

[ded2daworld]

Even the demons knew that Jesus was God in the flesh - they thought he was coming for "early torment"
Since satan doesn't know everything, perhaps he was curious how Jesus would react.
I was a sales trainer. 'It never hurts to ask" Jesus refused and satan was none the worse for asking. (Could satan have it worse? :dontknow:)