Tentmaker Forum

Forgive me if this is already a topic somewhere, but im in and out of this forum too much to know, anyway.

I noticed (and its been this way) any time I talk about UR with someone they like to play the "ARE YOU SAYING SATAN CAN BE SAVED?" as if that somehow trumps Gods all inclusive love. Have yet to understand why people really have a problem with that. they say naturally, that if we take "all in all" in 1 Corinthians 15 to be a literal all that Satan would have to be saved too!

While I dont disagree or necessarily agree (im undecided, I could frankly care less haha), id be interested to know what you think.

Oh and another thing I thought about is if "the last enemy to be destroyed is death" also includes all evil (including satan, if there is no good to be fostered from him), you could *perhaps* make a case that he doesnt necessarily have to be saved, but simply destroyed because there is no good in him and he served Gods purpose(unlike humans)

Well, who really has the definitive answer to any such questions?  People can't even agree on who/what Satan is.   My short answer that I conclude is that Satan/Evil/Death is destroyed which is apparently the result of a NEW CREATION when the 'former things' have passed away.   I have come to the conclusion that some things may always be mysterious to our limited minds.   God will do what is right.

Welcome to Tentmaker.

Anne

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on August 15, 2009, 05:04:57 AM
Well, who really has the definitive answer to any such questions?  People can't even agree on who/what Satan is.   My short answer that I conclude is that Satan/Evil/Death is destroyed which is apparently the result of a NEW CREATION when the 'former things' have passed away.   I have come to the conclusion that some things may always be mysterious to our limited minds.   God will do what is right.

Welcome to Tentmaker.

Anne

We know satan is recorded as this

"You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in truth, because there is no truth in him. Whe he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it." John 8-44

I agree with Anne. Through the word we have our origins of him, but how God will deal with him when all is said and done?

Eph 2 says he is the prince of the power of the air- a spirit. God will destroy all of the air that is not of him.

"So the Lord God said to the serpent:

Because you have done this, You are cursed more than all cattle,and more than every beast of the field;on your belly shall you go, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life"  Gen 3 14
right now he feeds on dust(or the flesh); what will he feast on when all dust is conquered by the spirit? Perhaps he will starve and die.

Brandon

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on August 15, 2009, 04:42:39 AM
Forgive me if this is already a topic somewhere, but im in and out of this forum too much to know, anyway.

I noticed (and its been this way) any time I talk about UR with someone they like to play the "ARE YOU SAYING SATAN CAN BE SAVED?" as if that somehow trumps Gods all inclusive love.

Forasmuch, then, as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he, also, Himself, took part of the same, that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death that is, the devil. Heb. 2:14

For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. I John 3:8

To me this fits under the verse Colossians 1:20 - New King James Version (NKJV) - "and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross."
- And whenever I read Psalm 41:9 (NKJV) "Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted up his heel against me." Which David wrote and Jesus quoted at the last supper as being then fulfilled, I can't help also thinking of God and His once high angel Lucifer..

Quote from: marie glen on October 10, 2012, 12:09:52 AM
To me this fits under the verse Colossians 1:20 - New King James Version (NKJV) - "and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross."
- And whenever I read Psalm 41:9 (NKJV) "Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted up his heel against me." Which David wrote and Jesus quoted at the last supper as being then fulfilled, I can't help also thinking of God and His once high angel Lucifer..

"I can't help also thinking of God and His once high angel Lucifer.."  that is a bogus an assumed speculation, birthed in the imagination of religious theology,  with no biblical proof what so ever. (please do not offer Ezk. 28 or Isa. 14 that IS the exact imagination, assumption within religious theology. There is in not ONE verse of scripture that verifies that theological view, denominational BS.
I for one am weary of the false teaching.

 well the way He reconciled the Heavens was to cast satan out....... there was 'war' in heaven because

  of his presence...Jesus rising was satans falling......he is named the dragon in heaven...

   the original serpent in the garden..the beast when operative..the false prophet where active there..

   satan when abyssed and set free...gog's armies when encamped around/against the camp

  of the Holy city...son of perdition when he entered Judas...offspring of vipers when he dwelt

  in the Pharisees sadducees...man of lawlessness when he entered/slipped in amongst the church


   he is a tool...Father has consistently cut him down to size little by little.God raises the humble/lowly

  and lowers the prideful..as leviathan he is king over all the prideful



  thinking he was equal to God but just of another nature..........

   Father made satan of everything He is not..everything that Father rejected is in satan...and will be rejected

  of Him eternally=everlasting cutting off=2nd death[p.s. he was first cutt off from heavens..then earth..

  now...He has shown forth through Adam that bears the image of the corrupt..what happens to corruption

  death/cutoff from life/God.  Judas also showed this..when satan entered him and he took on image

  of son of perdition[liar/theif/satn]  l...proselytesliar/theif is twofold child of hell......

   flesh man that served as examples of this adversarial tool spirit..always showed God's judgement

    it is the same principal as the election of God..before either did anything good or evil..the choice was God's

   I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy....mercy to man through Son to take away..into everlasting

  cutting off..our sins[adversarial opposition to God]

We can argue this and argue this, but God's Word is fairly silent on the subject.  I will say this much, that OUR salvation as human beings is wholly dependent on the sacrifice of Jesus and His having been born into the human race.  Thus, He is our kinsman and redeemer.  Satan and his host of fallen angels do not share that relationship with God, and cannot, because they do not reproduce, so Jesus cannot become their kinsman/redeemer.  If God is going to save them, it will have to be by other means, unknown to us.

BTW, I believe that all the strange biological probes being done by "aliens" are attempts by demons to insinuate themselves into the human gene pool - a desparate attempt to come under the umbrella of the redeemed kinsmen of Jesus.  It will not work. :doh:

WELL IF SATAN AND HIS FALLEN ANGELS 'DO NOT REPRODUCE' THEN WHO ARE THE OFFSPRING OF VIPERS?

  DWELLING IN MEN? :eek:  SEDUCING SPIRITS STILL ENTER IN AS SIN IN MANKIND TO THIS VERY TIME

  THAT IS WHY HE SEPERATES US FROM THEM.

   I WILL TELL YOU SOMETHING......WHEN SATAN'S ANGELS DWELT IN HEAVEN THEY WERE IN

  INCORRUPTIBLE BODIES THAT WOULD NOT RESPOND TO EVIL IMPULSES FROM EVIL SPIRIT

......THE NAKED FLESH OF ADAM AND EVE WAS LIKE 'JAILBAIT' TO THIS PERVERTED SPIRIT...

  CAUSING THEM TO LEAVE THEIR HABITATIONS IN HEAVEN[GARMENT OF INCORRUPTION]

  TO CARRY OUT THEIR EVIL LUSTS IN THE FLESH OF MEN..AND BECOME 'ONE' IN UNION

  WITH FLESH OF MAN..SIN IN FLESH CONDEMNED IN ALL MEN........

  TOKOGAE HAS MANKIND JOINED WITH EVIL SPIRIT CONTRAST AT WORK IN FLESH AS SIN

  ADAM 'KNEW" EVE=BECOME ONE FLESH/UNION TO BRING FORTH FRUIT...

   THERE IS ENMITY BETWEEN THE SEED OF THE WOMAN AND OF THE SERPENT

 BECAUSE OF THE ABOVE POST..DEMONS SAY 'I KNOW WHO YOU ARE JESUS,THE HOLY ONE OF GOD,

DID YOU COME TO TORMENT US BEFORE THE TIME?' AND BECAUSE OF THIS JESUS WOULD SAY

  SUCH THINGS LIKE 'COME OUT OF HIM"..OR SUCH THINGS AS 'YOU OFFSPRING OF VIPERS

  WHO WILL SAVE YOU"

  WE ARE NOT TO JUDGE BY THE APPEARANCE OF THE EYES..BECAUSE THERE ARE THINGS

IN THE UNSEEN/SPIRITUAL REALM THAT EYES OF MAN HAVE NOT SEEN...AND EARS OF MAN

  HAVE NOT HEARD...BOTH THE GOOD SPIRIT OF GOD AND THE EVIL SPIRIT CONTRAST

AND LAZURUS..THEY HAVE ALREADY 'ABDUCTED' THE FLESH OF MAN........WE KNOW IT AS

  SIN IN THE FLESH..  AND REV 6;16....THEN THE KINGS OF THE EARTH,THE PRINCES

THE GENERALS THE RICH THE MIGHTY AND EVERY SLAVE AND EVERY FREE MAN HID IN CAVES

  AMONG THE ROCKS OF THE MOUNTAIN.  THEY CALLED  TO THE MOUNTAINS AND THE ROCKS..

  'FALL ON US AND HIDE US FROM THE FACE OF HIM WHO SITS ON THE THRONE AND FROM THE

  WRATH OF THE LAMB!.".THEY WILL HIDE IN PEOPLE'S FLESH.[AS HIDDEN SIN]..THUS IT  IS WISE TO CONFESS

  THESE BEFORE THE THRONE SO JESUS MAY CLEANSE YOU OF THEM.[REPENT]

   THE WRATH OF THE LAMB IS NEVER DIRECTED TOWARD MAN..BUT IS DIRECTED TO THE

  DEMONS AND EVIL SPIRITS THAT DWELL THERE AND ARE KILLING/MURDERING US

   FOR LOVE IS AS STRONG AS DEATH..IT'S JEALOUSY AS UNYEILDING AS THE GRAVE

   I COME THAT THEY MAY HAVE LIFE


   MANY YEARS AGO..IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT..I WAS AWAKENED BY AN ARGUMENT THAT HAD BECOME

  LOUD..SO LOUD THAT IT WOKE ME UP!!  THERE IS WRITTEN IN THE SCRIPTURE AN ACCOUNT

CONCERNING MOSES BODY...REGARDING SATAN AND MICHAEL ARGUING OVER IT.......

   I TELL YOU THIS IS A SPIRITUAL TRUTH AND I KNOW IT...ALWAYS THE ENMITY BETWEEN THE SEED

  IS THERE.

   I WAS DELIVERED OF GREAT SPIRITUAL DARKNESS SHORTLY AFTER I HAD THIS HAPPEN..

  INTO THE KINGDOM OF THE LOVE OF THE SON..AND THE SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND

DANIEL 5  THE WRITING ON THE WALL.......V 2 STOLEN TEMPLE VESSELS[GOD MADE MAN FOR

  HIS SPIRIT TO DWELL IN/DO YOU NOT KNOW THAT YOUR BODY IS THE TEMPLE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

    WHILE BELSHAZZAR WAS DRINKING HIS WINE,HE GAVE ORDERS TO BRING IN THE

GOLD AND SILVER GOBLETS THAT NEBUCHADDNEZER HIS FATHER HAD TAKEN FROM THE TEMPLE IN

  JERUSALEM. SO THAT THE KING AND HIS NOBLES HIS WIVES AND HIS CONCUBINES MIGHT

  DRINK FROM THEM.  .....AS THEY DRANK THE WINE THEY PRAISED THE GODS OF GOLD SILVER

BRONZE IRON WOOD AND STONE......................

  SUDDENLY THE FINGERS OF A HUMAN HAND APPEARED AND WROTE ON THE PLASTER OF THE WALL

NEAR THE LAMPSTAND IN THE ROYAL PALACE.........

   MENE MENE TEKEL AND PARSIN......THAT VERY NIGHT BELSHAZZAR KING OF THE BABYLONIANS

  WAS KILLED......

QuoteFOR LOVE IS AS STRONG AS DEATH..IT'S JEALOUSY AS UNYEILDING AS THE GRAVE

:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:  :HeartThrob:

Your posts blessed me greatly Sheila.

Quote from: Lazarus Short on October 12, 2012, 09:03:50 PM
We can argue this and argue this, but God's Word is fairly silent on the subject.  I will say this much, that OUR salvation as human beings is wholly dependent on the sacrifice of Jesus and His having been born into the human race.  Thus, He is our kinsman and redeemer.  Satan and his host of fallen angels do not share that relationship with God, and cannot, because they do not reproduce, so Jesus cannot become their kinsman/redeemer.  If God is going to save them, it will have to be by other means, unknown to us.

BTW, I believe that all the strange biological probes being done by "aliens" are attempts by demons to insinuate themselves into the human gene pool - a desparate attempt to come under the umbrella of the redeemed kinsmen of Jesus.  It will not work. :doh:

Interesting comments.  Including the part about alien probes.  Makes me think;  I wonder if any alien abduction/probing stories have ever included a truly spiritually reborn believer.  Somehow I doubt it, and if so, I believe it would have to have been specifically allowed by God for a specific purpose (re: Job for instance), otherwise, I don't believe they would have that kind of access.  Anyway, just an aside.  I found it interesting.

Jabcat, according to what I have read, Christians have stopped "aliens" cold by invoking the name of Jesus. 

Sheila, as usual, you write things somewhat difficult to understand, but I appreciate what you say.  Our subject in this thread is a bit beyond our sphere of understanding, and I offer only informed opinions, not Ultimate Truth.

thanks Lazarus, I will work on putting it more plainly.

  you know what I was thinking,guys?  I was thinking that just as God's Holy spirit gives visions of His

  workings with men..that just maybe...the evil contrast tool gives these visions and expierences of his dealings..

  and that just maybe..that is what these 'alien abductions' are all about.

  my little girl had one about the age of 5..........strange phenomena noted a blade of grass run through

  a gourd birdhouse outside her window..was the only 'physical' evidence? other than her telling me

  about it.

Quote from: sheila on October 14, 2012, 06:08:31 PM
thanks Lazarus, I will work on putting it more plainly.

  you know what I was thinking,guys?  I was thinking that just as God's Holy spirit gives visions of His

  workings with men..that just maybe...the evil contrast tool gives these visions and expierences of his dealings..

  and that just maybe..that is what these 'alien abductions' are all about.

  my little girl had one about the age of 5..........strange phenomena noted a blade of grass run through

  a gourd birdhouse outside her window..was the only 'physical' evidence? other than her telling me

  about it.

There is physical evidence, and I recall something I saw in a photo, much like your blade of grass run through a gourd - straws imbedded in windowpane glass after a tornado.  Normal physics cannot account for things like that.  That said, I believe abductions happen mostly in the spiritual/psychic plane.  The "alien" aspect is a cover story for demonic activity, but most folks buy into it.  Happily, those of us who are covered by the blood of Jesus, are not subject to the "visions and expierences of his dealings" as you say.  It's a good call on your part, for every Godly thing, there is a Satanic counterfeit...

...another thing..she said they looked insect like..a praying mantis...mantis = prophet...and of course

  false prophet comes to mind.

Quote from: sheila on October 14, 2012, 06:39:11 PM
...another thing..she said they looked insect like..a praying mantis...mantis = prophet...and of course

  false prophet comes to mind.

Scary stuff!  Of course, mantises are predators, so Preying Mantis is as correct as Praying Mantis.  God's Word tells us that Satan prowls as a lion seeking whom he may devour, but one day I realised that the implication is that there are those whom Satan may NOT devour. 

Quote from: marie glen on October 10, 2012, 12:09:52 AM
To me this fits under the verse Colossians 1:20 - New King James Version (NKJV) - "and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross."
- And whenever I read Psalm 41:9 (NKJV) "Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted up his heel against me." Which David wrote and Jesus quoted at the last supper as being then fulfilled, I can't help also thinking of God and His once high angel Lucifer..

That verse also reminds me of satan, it doesn't necessarily have to be Lucifer, in my opinion Lucifer is not Satan but the antichrist, you heard it here first.

There is also a verse which says about him being led, I simply cannot find it.
But it made me think of why Jesus was so angry at Peter by calling him Satan.
Why, because Satan used  to lead Jesus, and Jesus said, hey Satan you used to lead me for the glory of God, but now you are trying to savour things that be of man.
I was very excited when God showed me this at first, it seemed to click.

Wow there is some interesting things said here. I would offer a bit of advice to put some study into the meaning of the words satan, devil, and lucifer in the bible. As a former believer in a physical satan I can understand how it can be confusing. Lucifer is really nothing more than the morning star and is only used once to refer to a King in the OT. Nothing to do with supernatural being. satan comes from the Hebrew and simply means adversary and can represent anything that opposes. There is no supernatural being called satan and anything that is an adversary can be a satan.  There is no reason for me to go into much detail as there is already plenty of information about these word studies available online from UR believers like E.H. Lake ( and non UR believers like the Christadelphians.  Here is a few links for anyone that is interested and reads this.

http://books.google.com/books?id=mdJ2Oa4h-hgC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://wrestedscripture.com/b07satan/satan.html 

You might call a man 'the prosecutor,' but he's still a man.  The Bible also calls him the nephesh, Lucifer, and leviathan.  The new testament calls him,

...the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan..

[and says he is bound for 1000 years.]

I'm just saying, there is a debate about who or what is Satan.

We know satan is recorded as this

"You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in truth, because there is no truth in him. Whe he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it." John 8-44 (Aspiring Son)

1Co 15:28  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Col 1:16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Now ALL is All correct? And we know who satan/devil is and that ALL things will be subdued unto Him.

IMO there is way too much speculation about Lucifer/Satan/the adversary that goes on based on a few obscure prophetic verses of scripture that honest minds can read differently. At present we know that whoever he ever was, now he is the father of lies, author of confusion, murderer, ruler of the hosts of wickedness, spirit that works in the sons of disobedience, etc.

I personally have never seen any scripture that indicates that the adversary evr led Jesus. I agree with Micah tho, one thing we know is that eventually all things will be reconciled, and Colossians pretty clearly defines that as everything He created, everything He is over, everything he came before.....hey, that's evryone and everything!

For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation

Quote from: eaglesway on December 15, 2012, 06:34:08 PM
IMO there is way too much speculation about Lucifer/Satan/the adversary that goes on based on a few obscure prophetic verses of scripture that honest minds can read differently. At present we know that whoever he ever was, now he is the father of lies, author of confusion, murderer, ruler of the hosts of wickedness, spirit that works in the sons of disobedience, etc.

I personally have never seen any scripture that indicates that the adversary evr led Jesus. I agree with Micah tho, one thing we know is that eventually all things will be reconciled, and Colossians pretty clearly defines that as everything He created, everything He is over, everything he came before.....hey, that's evryone and everything!

For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation

Amen. As for Jesus being led by the adversary, nope...Mat 4:1  Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

...and pray thusly...lead us NOT into temptation..but deliver us from the adversary[satan spirit of rebellion

  that misleads[liar and thief] from God's will]  Let no-one say he is tempted of God.........

    Father may allow us to be tried..but it is not His spirit that tempts.

Jesus was tempted by satan (hebrew for adversary). So what is man tempted by, only one thing according to the bible, his own evil desires James 1:14
"and each one is tempted, by his own desires being led away and enticed," Christ was tempted in every way that we are. Hebrews 4:15 "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin."

well..we have sin in our flesh...that can be tempted out[compel to action]  Jesus said........

   'the Prince of this world comes..and he has nothing in me"

Quote from: sheila on December 16, 2012, 02:32:14 AM
well..we have sin in our flesh...that can be tempted out[compel to action]  Jesus said........

   'the Prince of this world comes..and he has nothing in me"

In reading that I feel as though he is probably talking about sin being the ruler and in not having any hold on him or having nothing in him. That sin does not dwell in him and the grave does not have a hold on him. If someone believes in a literal satan, a physical being, I always like to ask them who is he and where did he come from?

the adversary is sin...and all it's fruits..an evil spirit of rebellion against God..it has no physical body

  of it's own..that's why it wanted God's throne..and flesh of mankind to dwell in.  We wrestle not

against flesh and blood..but powers and principalities in high places.

  satan/adversary/evil spirit/sin is an evil tool God made to provide the negative contrast in this exercize

  in good/evil for all the children of God.  and as we have bore the image of the corruptible one,

  so,too,we shall bear the image of the incorruptible one.

I understand the devil or Satan is the evil one; but, is he wicked?  Evil is not sin.  A pain is evil but not necessarily sinful or wrong.  Sin is sometimes something good, like fornication is pleasure (which would be right if there was a marriage license.)  While it seems any living spirits would be corrected in their development across the ages, I wonder if it is always right to say that if the devil gets "saved" he wouldn't be the devil anymore.  Luther said, "Even the devil is God's devil."  Maybe it's right for the devil to be as he is.  Could it be God needs such a servant whose specialty is evil?  I'm not entirely certain about this.

"Could it be God needs such a servant whose specialty is evil? " I would say purposed.

Gen 2:9  And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Col 1:16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Joh 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Rev 22:13  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 1:8  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending,

Quote from: reFORMer on December 16, 2012, 08:04:21 AM
I understand the devil or Satan is the evil one; but, is he wicked.  Evil is not sin.  A pain is evil but not necessarily sinful or wrong.  Sin is sometimes something good, like fornication is pleasure (which would be right if there was a marriage license.)  While it seems any living spirits would be corrected in their development across the ages, I wonder if it is always right to say that if the devil gets "saved" he wouldn't be the devil anymore.  Luther said, "Even the devil is God's devil."  Maybe it's right for the devil to be as he is.  Could it be God needs such a servant whose specialty is evil?  I'm not entirely certain about this.

He is the god of this age.  Our God has allowed it.

We, who are born out of due time, born prematurely, born into the wrong age, born as the firstfruits, must vibrate [a new song] against him and his minions.


For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.

--Eph 6

Evil requires fear.

Evil that has no fear to keep it comfortable must go out to the dry places

Love that has it's foundation in Faith.
Love is the most powerful essence in the universe,
Evil flees when the power of Love is present,
Jesus through the Holy Spirit has given this essence freely
we count it as pure joy to pray in faith and over come.

Love is blind ----    to fear

Evil doesn't so much require fear.  It requires good men to do nothing, out of fear.

Which is why he tells us--



Luke 9:24 ... whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it.

Is praying doing nothing?

Praying is vibrating against--


evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.

--Eph 6

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 16, 2012, 04:51:40 PM
"Could it be God needs such a servant whose specialty is evil? " I would say purposed.

Gen 2:9  And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Col 1:16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Joh 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Rev 22:13  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 1:8  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending,

Anything taken out of the context of the whole Logos can say anything. I like to factor the Lord Jesus' testimony and Paul's into the whole truth. It helps me understand the mind of God.

Get behind me Satan, for your interests are the interests of man, not God.

Where the KJV translates "I create evil" IMO It is speaking of the judgment of God upon the rebellious, by calamities such as plagues and invasions, etc.

This is borne out a few verses later.

Woe to him who strives with his Maker!--a worthless piece of broken pottery among other pieces equally worthless [and yet presuming to strive with his Maker]! Shall the clay say to him who fashions it, What do you think you are making? or, Your work has no handles?  (Isa 45:9 Amp)

whatever the adversary is, nowhere in the scripture is he described as a servant , altho in the end of course, God causes all things to work according to the counsel of His will.......even the evil works of His adversaries, among whom we all at one time walked.

"Where the KJV translates "I create evil" IMO It is speaking of the judgment of God upon the rebellious, by calamities such as plagues and invasions, etc. "
Gen. 2:9 "...... and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. " Same word evil as in Isa. 45

"whatever the adversary is, nowhere in the scripture is he described as a servant , altho in the end of course, God causes all things to work according to the counsel of His will.......even the evil works of His adversaries, among whom we all at one time walked."  " God causes all things to work according to the counsel of His will...."
------- the adversary would fall under obedience or to do, yes?


Gen 2:9  And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Col 1:16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Joh 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Rev 22:13  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 1:8  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending,

Is the "context" misplaced?  I for one will leave ALL responsibility of how the world began and continues in the hands of the Creator.

The Bible reads.. Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
This is the "context" of what he said. Yes?

IMO, No it is not. In the particular chapter of Isaiah(45) you are quoting from, God is threatening Israel with chaos because of her backsliding.

The light is compared to its opposite darkness. Peace is compared to its opposite chaos.

Did James misunderstand when he said,

Blessed is the man who is patient under trial and stands up under temptation, for when he has stood the test and been approved, he will receive [the victor's] crown of life which God has promised to those who love Him.
Let no one say when he is tempted, I am tempted from God; for God is incapable of being tempted by [what is] evil and He Himself tempts no one.
But every person is tempted when he is drawn away, enticed and baited by his own evil desire (lust, passions).
Then the evil desire, when it has conceived, gives birth to sin, and sin, when it is fully matured, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:12-15)

There are 569 occurrences of the word evil in the KJV. We could throw them back and forth at one another all day :o)

But IMO There is nothing in the scriptures that indicates that Satan was created as a servant of God- there is much that says the opposite of that. So are we to assume now that the scriptures oppose one another? I don't think so. I think we will understand it better by and by.

God created all things- we agree on that, we just disagree on how wickedness was conceived. I am not saying I am totally right and you are totally wrong either. It is about the "mystery of iniquity" that we speak. The answers are not so simple :o)

Ok let me get this straight, we are not allowed to use Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things... unless I am speaking of a backsliding Israel?
So, the verse does not REALLY mean that the Lord formed the light, and created darkness: makes peace and creates evil?
I believe Psa 119:160 The sum of Thy word is truth, And to the age is every judgment of Thy righteousness!
So ALL of His Word is True, and He said He created evil, I believe Him.



I will retract the adversary as a servant and say it this way. The adversary was created by the Creator, to carrying out the Creators purposes. The adversary is powerless outside of the Creators purpose.
By saying this, I am not denying, the adversary's fierceness and power as the god of this world; the adversary is a formidable foe with one purpose, to reek havoc on believers and attempt to cause believers to deny Jesus Christ the Savior of the whole world.

"God created all things- we agree on that, we just disagree on how wickedness was conceived...."

all is created through Him and for Him, 17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him."(CLV)

Perhaps you my friend you cannot accept that The Lord and Creator is the infinite Wisdom that is able to use evil, wickedness and love and forgiveness for His Good.
Job 26:13  By His Spirit the heavens He beautified, Formed hath His hand the fleeing serpent.

Peace and Love

Micah,  :iagree: :Peace2:
You said in a nice way what I've said before in a kinda bad way.
Don't read the next line if you are easily offended below
what Micah said above concerning Satan. I apologise in advance for
any that continue to read and get offended
"Satan is God's bitch."

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 18, 2012, 05:29:05 PM
Micah,  :iagree: :Peace2:
You said in a nice way what I've said before in a kinda bad way.
Don't read the next line if you are easily offended below
what Micah said above concerning Satan. I apologise in advance for
any that continue to read and get offended
"Satan is God's bitch."

:dsunny:

I SEE TRUTH IN BOTH POV'S.......THE EVIL WAS BUILT IN TO THE TOKOGAE..DISOBEDIANCE..WAS

WHAT CAUSED IT TO ENTER[SEE COVENANT CURSES FOR DISOBEDIANCE...CHILDREN BECOME

  DEMON POSSESSED....EVERYTHING DISINTERGRATES INTO CHOAS.

  BUT..THE ADVERSARY WAS GOD'S RIVAL ALSO..IT FIRST SLANDERED HIS MOTIVES AND

INTENTIONS TO EVE[AS A RIVAL WOULD] AND THROUGH SEDUCTION ENTICED HER TO PARTAKE

  HE COVETED GOD'S POSITION FOREMOST.....

   THE EVIL TOOL..BOTH TEMPTOR AND ACCUSOR..SERVES GOD'S PURPOSE THAT HIS CHILDREN

DISCERN GOOD FROM EVIL.

  NOW..IN THE LAW IT IS SPELLED OUT THAT IF A MAN KNOW HE HAS A DANGEROUS BEAST..THAT

HE TAKE PRECAUTIONS TO PROTECT LIFE........GOD MAKING LEVIATHAN BEHEMOTH AND

DAMAGING SPIRITUAL BEASTS HAS ALSO SEEN TO IT THAT WE ARE PROTECTED FROM ETERNAL

HARM..BUT AT THE SAME TIME SUFFER TEMPORAL CONSEQUENCES FOR NOT DISCERNING THE

DIFFERENCES.  SOMETIMES HARD LESSONS ARE THE BEST ONES LEARNED.

  BASICALLY..LISTEN TO ME..I KNOW MORE THAN YOU..PAY ATTENTION AND HEED MY COMMANDS

FOR YOUR OWN GOOD[COZ IF YOU DON'T THE BUILT IN EVIL TOOL WILL SHOW YOU THE FRUITAGE

OF IT]

  IT'S KIND OFAN AVERSION TECHNIQUE...IT'S LIKE YOU TELL YOUR 5 YR OLD OVER AND OVER

STAY AWAY FROM THAT HOT PAN..BUT IT FALLS ON DEAF EARS...TIL SHE GET'S BURNED..AND

LEARNS FROM PAINFUL EXPIERENCE.  OF COURSE COMPASSION AND HEALING ARE IN ORDER

BY THE PARENT WHEN THIS OCCURRS..MAYBE WITH AN ADMONISHMENT..LISTEN TO ME WHEN

I TELL YOU SOMETHING

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 18, 2012, 05:29:05 PM

"Satan is God's bitch."

God keeps Satan on a short leash as well.

"BUT..THE ADVERSARY WAS GOD'S RIVAL ALSO..IT FIRST SLANDERED HIS MOTIVES AND

INTENTIONS TO EVE[AS A RIVAL WOULD] AND THROUGH SEDUCTION ENTICED HER TO PARTAKE

  HE COVETED GOD'S POSITION FOREMOST....."

"...THE ADVERSARY WAS GOD'S RIVAL ...." this sounds much like the fabled beautiful cherub and lucifer stuff. The adversary is NO rival to God.
".....THROUGH SEDUCTION ENTICED HER TO PARTAKE...."  Read James 1:14 and each one is tempted, by his own desires being led away and enticed,
Then read Gen. 3:6 And the woman seeth............the serpent, the devil was only there to open the woman's eyes to the beginning of her knowledge,
when she SAW.. pleasant to the eyes, and the tree is desirable.... each one is tempted, by his own desires being led away and enticed.
"  HE COVETED GOD'S POSITION FOREMOST....."  this sounds much like the fabled beautiful cherub and lucifer stuff again. The adversary didn't covet anything.

I'm sorry and I mean no offence, but this backward psychological thinking of the logical carnal mind, that if there is a no trespassing sign, that means some one will trespass or " IT'S KIND OFAN AVERSION TECHNIQUE...IT'S LIKE YOU TELL YOUR 5 YR OLD OVER AND OVER

STAY AWAY FROM THAT HOT PAN..BUT IT FALLS ON DEAF EARS...TIL SHE GET'S BURNED..AND

LEARNS FROM PAINFUL EXPIERENCE.  OF COURSE COMPASSION AND HEALING ARE IN ORDER

BY THE PARENT WHEN THIS OCCURRS..MAYBE WITH AN ADMONISHMENT..LISTEN TO ME WHEN

I TELL YOU SOMETHING" I once accepted that thinking, for years..... but God's creation did not malfunction in Genesis chapter 3 nor has God's creation malfunctioned to date, nor is the adversary getting the upper hand on anything. Once it was given me to understand that NOTHING is out of order, I let out a sigh, and felt the wing brush over me.

W HAT? SO YOUR SAYING EVE WAS NOT SEDUCED?  pR 1;10 16;29 ROMANS 16;18 2 THESS 2;3

   2 COR 11;3...AS...THE...SERPENT...SEDUCED...EVE...

   WHAT DO YPOU THINK THE CREATURE BEING SUBJECTED TO VANITY NOT OF IT'S OWN WILL

  BUT BE WHO SUBJECTED IT..SO THAT THE WHOLE CREATION SHALL BE SET FREE INTO

  THE GLORIOUS FREEDOM OF THE SONS OF GOD,MEANS....WHAT IS THE EXERCIZE IN GOOD AND EVIL

  BUT THE LEARNING THROUGH EXPIERENCE?

   WHAT IS NOT SHOWING GOD IN CONTROL OF THE WHOLE SETUP..........?

  THE LORD GOD IS ONE GOD...THOU SHALT HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME..THE LORD GOD

IS A JEALOUS GOD........ADVERSARIEL TOOL IS AN ADVERSARY..WHEN IT MISLEADS PEOPLE

INTO REBELLION AGAINST GOD.

  2 THESS 2;4 DON'T LET ANYONE DECEIVE[SEDUCE] YOU.....IN ANY WAY, FOR THAT DAY WILL

NOT COME UNTIL THE REBELLION OCCURS AND THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS IS REVEALED

  THE MAN DOOMED TO DESTRUCTION........HE...WILL..OPPOSE...AND..WILL...EXALT HIMSELF

  OVER..EVERYTHING..THAT..IS..CALLED..GOD[COVETS THRONE OF GOD]OR IS WORSHIPPED

  SO...THAT..HE...SETS..HIMSELF...UP...IN...GOD'S...TEMPLE.......

   PROCLAIMING...HIMSELF....GOD......

   THE COMING OF THE LAWLESS ONE  WILL BE IN ACCORDANCE...WITH..THE..WORKS..OF SATAN

    DISPLAYED WITH COUNTERFEIT MIRACLES SIGNS AND WONDERS.....AND IN EVERY SORT


  OF....EVIL...THAT...DECEIVES[SEDUCES]......

  FOR THIS REASON GOD SENDS A POWERFUL DELUSION..............................

  SO...THAT....THEY...WILL...BELIEVE...THE....LIE..............

Am I saying...."W HAT? SO YOUR SAYING EVE WAS NOT SEDUCED?  pR 1;10 16;29 ROMANS 16;18 2 THESS 2;3

   2 COR 11;3...AS...THE...SERPENT...SEDUCED...EVE...

Nope, and you have given the verses why. Very good. :Peace2: :dsunny:

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 18, 2012, 05:23:02 PM
Ok let me get this straight, we are not allowed to use Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things... unless I am speaking of a backsliding Israel?
So, the verse does not REALLY mean that the Lord formed the light, and created darkness: makes peace and creates evil?
I believe Psa 119:160 The sum of Thy word is truth, And to the age is every judgment of Thy righteousness!
So ALL of His Word is True, and He said He created evil, I believe Him.



I will retract the adversary as a servant and say it this way. The adversary was created by the Creator, to carrying out the Creators purposes. The adversary is powerless outside of the Creators purpose.
By saying this, I am not denying, the adversary's fierceness and power as the god of this world; the adversary is a formidable foe with one purpose, to reek havoc on believers and attempt to cause believers to deny Jesus Christ the Savior of the whole world.

"God created all things- we agree on that, we just disagree on how wickedness was conceived...."

all is created through Him and for Him, 17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him."(CLV)

Perhaps you my friend you cannot accept that The Lord and Creator is the infinite Wisdom that is able to use evil, wickedness and love and forgiveness for His Good.
Job 26:13  By His Spirit the heavens He beautified, Formed hath His hand the fleeing serpent.

Peace and Love

Micah, I didnt say anyone is not allowed to use anything, I am simply sharing my perspective- you are perfectly at liberty to disagree with me, as I am perfectly at liberty to express my perspective. Chill man :o), Peace.

Nor have I said I do not see that God is able to use evil, for He causes all things to work according to the counsel of Hios will, even the freedom He gives to creatures like man and the adversary to be seduced by their own desires and gestate sin and conceive death.

Post 37   Quote from: micah7:9 on December 16, 2012, 04:51:40 PM
"Could it be God needs such a servant whose specialty is evil? " I would say purposed.

Gen 2:9  And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Col 1:16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Joh 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Rev 22:13  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 1:8  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending,

"Anything taken out of the context of the whole Logos can say anything. ....."

Where ia the post "out of context?"

Well Micah, this is all I am trying to say- and it is my opinion, and as I see it you are expressing yours....you are not expressing"ultimate truth" and neither am I  okay ?:o)

It is, IMO, a statement out of context with everything that is written on the adversary to advocate that he is a willing servant of God, as was originally posited at the beginning of this. That point is all I ever was resonding to. To make my response a general discussion of God's sovereignity was not and still is not my intention.

I never said God does not use the adversary or that God is not in control of all things ultimately. I believe the adversary has his own purpose, and that God is way ahead of him in using it for many things and limiting it at many points. However, evil, IMO, from the standpoint of its conception through lust, does not originate with God, since God cannot be tempted with sin, nor does He tempt any man.

The mystery of iniquity is a great discussion. I enjoy discussing thiongs. i am not really interested in debating anything outside of myy original point which was- the adversary is not "on God's team".

Should I agree with you, and there was a time I did, When you state, " I believe the adversary has his own purpose, and that God is way ahead of him in using it for many things and limiting it at many points. However, evil, IMO, from the standpoint of its conception through lust, does not originate with God, since God cannot be tempted with sin, nor does He tempt any man."

"...has his own purpose, " Where or from who, did that purpose come from?
"....God is way ahead of him in using it for many things and limiting it at many points. " Do you mean that the adversary is not limited on some points? That on some points the adversary is on his own?

".... However, evil, IMO, from the standpoint of its conception through lust..." Where or how did lust get conceived?
And "....[lust]does not originate with God,..." then I am to understand Paul and John did not mean what they wrote here...
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


This is true, "The mystery of iniquity is a great discussion. I enjoy discussing thiongs. i am not really interested in debating anything outside of myy original point which was- the adversary is not "on God's team".
And I hope I have removed the thought of a servant and would rather not use the word team. I believe the mystery of iniquity has it's understanding from point "A" that EVERYTHING-ALL comes out from God. That my friend, right now, is the only part of the mystery of iniquity that I have been given to understand, and that only leaves me more in awe of the Father of lights.
The God and Creator takes responsibility for His work(s) Isa 55:8  For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9  For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Jer 29:11  For I have known the thoughts that I am thinking towards you--an affirmation of Jehovah; thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give to you posterity and hope.

:HeartThrob: :dsunny:

Somehow, the discussion above put me in mind of that song/hymn, which I remember being sung by Tennessee Ernie Ford:

Farther along, we'll know all about it
Farther along, we'll understand why

Keep singing! :banana: :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Lazarus Short on December 19, 2012, 10:02:29 PM
Somehow, the discussion above put me in mind of that song/hymn, which I remember being sung by Tennessee Ernie Ford:

Farther along, we'll know all about it
Farther along, we'll understand why

Cheer up my brother, live in the sunshine     (or, is it, "walk" in the sunshine?)
Farther along, we understand why

If you stare at a bright light you can't see darkness.
If you turn and face away from the light you still can't see darkness.
You have to walk away from the light far enough to see darkness.
God is light in him is no darkness.
God is LOVE in him is no fear.
With out fear there is no evil.

when the light shines were does the darkness go.
How can the darkness come back .

If any one can tell me how darkness can be changed so that
darkness can be shown by light.

I will tell you how Satan can be redeemed.   

Perhaps darkness is light turned to it's least? 
17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him." Col.1:17 CLV)

Didja ever notice? Go into a pitch black room and even the tiny light from your cellphone lights it up.
Go into a brightly lit room and you can't bring in any device to shine some darkness in there. :dontknow:

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 15, 2012, 07:44:16 PM

Quote from: eaglesway on December 15, 2012, 06:34:08 PM
IMO there is way too much speculation about Lucifer/Satan/the adversary that goes on based on a few obscure prophetic verses of scripture that honest minds can read differently. At present we know that whoever he ever was, now he is the father of lies, author of confusion, murderer, ruler of the hosts of wickedness, spirit that works in the sons of disobedience, etc.

I personally have never seen any scripture that indicates that the adversary evr led Jesus. I agree with Micah tho, one thing we know is that eventually all things will be reconciled, and Colossians pretty clearly defines that as everything He created, everything He is over, everything he came before.....hey, that's evryone and everything!

For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation

Amen. As for Jesus being led by the adversary, nope...Mat 4:1  Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

He was lead into the wilderness by the spirit and tempted by the adversary that was himself, his own desires,that of course he overcame. There is nothing that complicated about this that honest minds are going to misinterpret. He is in the wilderness the whole time. But then he is on top of the temple, then he is on a very high mountain where he can see the kingdom of the world. That mountain does of course does not exist, there is no such thing except in ones own mind. He also could not be on the temple because as we know he is in the wilderness being tempted. This is backed up by scripture, we are only tempted by our own evil desires, nothing else. Why make simple things overly complicated?

QuoteHe was lead into the wilderness by the spirit and tempted by the adversary that was himself, his own desires,that of course he overcame. There is nothing that complicated about this that honest minds are going to misinterpret. He is in the wilderness the whole time. But then he is on top of the temple, then he is on a very high mountain where he can see the kingdom of the world. That mountain does of course does not exist, there is no such thing except in ones own mind. He also could not be on the temple because as we know he is in the wilderness being tempted. This is backed up by scripture, we are only tempted by our own evil desires, nothing else. Why make simple things overly complicated?

Because it's not as simple as you are trying to make it?

Jesus did not have an evil bone in his body.  He was in flesh, so he could understand temptation, but he was not tempting himself.  Nor can I wrap my head around Jesus ever having any 'evil desires.'



I won't talk with you much longer, because the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me.

"I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;--John 14:30

...so...when the devil left Him and the angels come and attended Him...they were of Jesus mind?

  you can't have it both ways.  and Jesus cast out evil spirits..legion even..but they were just in the mind of the people?

  the boy that was thrown into the fire or water.. the evil spirit trying to kill him..was just that little boys own evil desire?

   and Jesus lied..when He openly cast them out..and the disciples too. and when Jesus said, do not rejoice

  that the evil spirits are subject to you..but that your names are written in heaven...the evil spirits were just

the disciples own evil desires.?

   Matt 17;18  Jesus rebuked the demon and it come out of that boy[the evil desire of his flesh to kill him]

   so Jesus and the disciples when they went about casting these evil desires of the peoples flesh

out of them..and calling them unclean spirits,evil spirits and demons were just 'joshin' the people?

  Is that what you are saying?

     and when God testified in the covenant curses for disobediance that He would sendir evil spirits

to possess the children..He wasnot speaking truth either?  at the mouth of two or three wittnesses let

every matter be established....Jesus,God..and the disciples testify

   the evil desire in one man's flesh said' I know who you are Jesus ,what do you want with me"....


   sorry, I reject this doctrine of yours.

 

Sheila,  :thumbsup:

Quote from: omantodd2000 on December 21, 2012, 03:07:11 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 15, 2012, 07:44:16 PM

Quote from: eaglesway on December 15, 2012, 06:34:08 PM
IMO there is way too much speculation about Lucifer/Satan/the adversary that goes on based on a few obscure prophetic verses of scripture that honest minds can read differently. At present we know that whoever he ever was, now he is the father of lies, author of confusion, murderer, ruler of the hosts of wickedness, spirit that works in the sons of disobedience, etc.

I personally have never seen any scripture that indicates that the adversary evr led Jesus. I agree with Micah tho, one thing we know is that eventually all things will be reconciled, and Colossians pretty clearly defines that as everything He created, everything He is over, everything he came before.....hey, that's evryone and everything!

For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation

Amen. As for Jesus being led by the adversary, nope...Mat 4:1  Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

He was lead into the wilderness by the spirit and tempted by the adversary that was himself, his own desires,that of course he overcame. There is nothing that complicated about this that honest minds are going to misinterpret. He is in the wilderness the whole time. But then he is on top of the temple, then he is on a very high mountain where he can see the kingdom of the world. That mountain does of course does not exist, there is no such thing except in ones own mind. He also could not be on the temple because as we know he is in the wilderness being tempted. This is backed up by scripture, we are only tempted by our own evil desires, nothing else. Why make simple things overly complicated?

The thing is omantodd, that is not what it says. You are interpreting that the adversary was his own desires. it says something different than that, so, it can be read either way- I am not ruling out your interpretation, but there is no way that it is as obvious and undeniable as you make it seem. I need no complication- I just read it as it was written.

Jesus said unto him(aoutos), It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
(Mat 4:7-11)


him  Gr. autos  Strong's: self, as used (in all persons, genders, numbers) to distinguish a person or thing from or contrast it with another, or to give him (it) emphatic prominence-

In other words to establish a distinction between the one speaking(Jesus) and the one spoken to(Satan)

The interpretation that all references to Satan or diablos the adversary are mystically speaking of our lower self is not a problem for me- but it is by no means such a clear definition that an honest mind must see it as such. For me, it is a further stretch than just reading the narrative as it is written and adding no interpretation to it.

Quote from: Molly on December 21, 2012, 04:56:38 AM

QuoteHe was lead into the wilderness by the spirit and tempted by the adversary that was himself, his own desires,that of course he overcame. There is nothing that complicated about this that honest minds are going to misinterpret. He is in the wilderness the whole time. But then he is on top of the temple, then he is on a very high mountain where he can see the kingdom of the world. That mountain does of course does not exist, there is no such thing except in ones own mind. He also could not be on the temple because as we know he is in the wilderness being tempted. This is backed up by scripture, we are only tempted by our own evil desires, nothing else. Why make simple things overly complicated?

Because it's not as simple as you are trying to make it?

Jesus did not have an evil bone in his body.  He was in flesh, so he could understand temptation, but he was not tempting himself.  Nor can I wrap my head around Jesus ever having any 'evil desires.'



I won't talk with you much longer, because the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me.

"I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;--John 14:30

Jesus was a man just like we are, he had desires the same as we do "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin." How are we tempted? Is it by a literal satan, no, it is by our own desires as the bible says.

You use the words, "As the bible says" as if your position is all the bible says on the subject, but it says much more than that. That is why my point is to not limit the "truth" to your "interpretation", when there are verses than can be read, legitimately, another way.

It is also the reason why this is a discussion blog, not a "declaration blog" where people stand up and say "this is how it is and anyone who doesn't see it the way I do is over-complicating things".

QuoteHow are we tempted? Is it by a literal satan, no, it is by our own desires as the bible says.

So you think Jesus really wanted to jump off the pinnacle to test God himself?  To see if God would send his angels to save him?

How was that going to work when by his own admission Jesus could snap his fingers and call up ten legions of angels himself?  It's not like he would have to rely on anyone but himself to call up angels.

No, I think Jesus was telling Satan,  'I'm God.  Stop testing me.'

He's putting Satan in his place.



9 The devil led him to Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down from here. 10 For it is written:

"'He will command his angels concerning you to guard you carefully;

they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'"

Jesus answered, "It says: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

13 When the devil had finished all this tempting, he left him until an opportune time.

--Luke 4

HeHe..... I think Jesus was saying "I only do those things which I hear from my Father, God, and I will not put Him to a foolish test".

I am sure all three views have an element of the whole truth.

Eaglesway,Satan does not always mean our lower self or desires of the flesh. It is an adversary and can mean anything that is an adversary depending on the context of the verse it is in. Sometimes it is the flesh, Pharisees,romans,or even an angel of God that stood as an adversary to Balaam. One thing it is never is a fallen angel or the mythical creature that people associate him with. I am sorry if you find me to bold on the topic declaring what it means, I only do this because I have studied this for years. I am not going to debate you on it, you are free to disagree with me on any or all points I have made. Just take them as my opinion on the topic and study it for yourself and draw your own conclusions. I would never want anyone to take anything I say as fact and not look it up for themselves.

When Satan enters Judas at the last supper, Jesus shows his pre-eminence over Satan by giving Satan an order--


"Do quickly what you are going to do!"

--John 13:27

oman, it is not a matter of being too bold to declare. It is stating as absolute fact rather than your opinion. You have studied for years I'm sure. Many of us have studied a subject for years and then found after years of study - our conclusions had been wrong. If you stay with just the instances in which the Bible mentions Satan, you will find some seeming contradictions.

I've read books from cults that will take 40 or 50 or 100 pages to "explain" one verse but what they are really doing is trying to convince others of a pet theory. I'm not saying there is anying wrong with this but IMO with the Bible, Occams Razor, (The simplest and most straightforward) reading is what is most likely true.

One more thing, Has this "special knowledge" of Satan helped you be a better, more caring, more loving person? Or does it make you feel somewhat superior for knowing more than others on a particular subject.

E.G. I don't care what Catholics say about Mary. She was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus our lord and that's about all is mentioned about her. Why? Because she is a very small part of what it is important to know. If you take the Catholic view that she is the "Queen of heaven" The "Mother of God" and that SHE was "born of a virgin" herself, the scant mention she has is blown way out of proportion and cannot be backed biblically.

Quote from: Molly on December 21, 2012, 04:56:38 AM

QuoteHe was lead into the wilderness by the spirit and tempted by the adversary that was himself, his own desires,that of course he overcame. There is nothing that complicated about this that honest minds are going to misinterpret. He is in the wilderness the whole time. But then he is on top of the temple, then he is on a very high mountain where he can see the kingdom of the world. That mountain does of course does not exist, there is no such thing except in ones own mind. He also could not be on the temple because as we know he is in the wilderness being tempted. This is backed up by scripture, we are only tempted by our own evil desires, nothing else. Why make simple things overly complicated?

Because it's not as simple as you are trying to make it?

Jesus did not have an evil bone in his body.  He was in flesh, so he could understand temptation, but he was not tempting himself.  Nor can I wrap my head around Jesus ever having any 'evil desires.'



I won't talk with you much longer, because the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me.

"I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;--John 14:30

:dsunny:

Quote from: sheila on December 21, 2012, 05:02:05 AM
...so...when the devil left Him and the angels come and attended Him...they were of Jesus mind?

  you can't have it both ways.  and Jesus cast out evil spirits..legion even..but they were just in the mind of the people?

  the boy that was thrown into the fire or water.. the evil spirit trying to kill him..was just that little boys own evil desire?

   and Jesus lied..when He openly cast them out..and the disciples too. and when Jesus said, do not rejoice

  that the evil spirits are subject to you..but that your names are written in heaven...the evil spirits were just

the disciples own evil desires.?

   Matt 17;18  Jesus rebuked the demon and it come out of that boy[the evil desire of his flesh to kill him]

   so Jesus and the disciples when they went about casting these evil desires of the peoples flesh

out of them..and calling them unclean spirits,evil spirits and demons were just 'joshin' the people?

  Is that what you are saying?

     and when God testified in the covenant curses for disobediance that He would sendir evil spirits

to possess the children..He wasnot speaking truth either?  at the mouth of two or three wittnesses let

every matter be established....Jesus,God..and the disciples testify

   the evil desire in one man's flesh said' I know who you are Jesus ,what do you want with me"....


   sorry, I reject this doctrine of yours.

:dsunny:

Quote from: omantodd2000 on December 21, 2012, 08:39:52 AM

Quote from: Molly on December 21, 2012, 04:56:38 AM

QuoteHe was lead into the wilderness by the spirit and tempted by the adversary that was himself, his own desires,that of course he overcame. There is nothing that complicated about this that honest minds are going to misinterpret. He is in the wilderness the whole time. But then he is on top of the temple, then he is on a very high mountain where he can see the kingdom of the world. That mountain does of course does not exist, there is no such thing except in ones own mind. He also could not be on the temple because as we know he is in the wilderness being tempted. This is backed up by scripture, we are only tempted by our own evil desires, nothing else. Why make simple things overly complicated?

Because it's not as simple as you are trying to make it?

Jesus did not have an evil bone in his body.  He was in flesh, so he could understand temptation, but he was not tempting himself.  Nor can I wrap my head around Jesus ever having any 'evil desires.'



I won't talk with you much longer, because the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me.

"I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;--John 14:30

Jesus was a man just like we are, he had desires the same as we do "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin." How are we tempted? Is it by a literal satan, no, it is by our own desires as the bible says.

"Jesus was a man just like we are,..."

Jesus was NOT a man like we are, if that were true Jesus could not be the Savior of the world. We have a carnal mind, Jesus did not have a carnal mind. Mat 4:10  Then saith Jesus unto him.....
I have not been able to get my thinking and reasoning around the adversary[satan] being a "him" and I believe translators, as well as ourselves, cannot identify the opponent. For me the adversary is a created spirit, with fearful power with the one, sole purpose to confuse the re-generated new creature from yielding to the mind of Christ and maturing into the new man. I read Mat. 4:10 Then saith Jesus, get hence adversary, for it is written, worship the Lord God, and him only shalt be served. At least that is how I read. For me personally, leaving out or giving recognition and identification to the adversary is strengthening for me. The adversary is very real and is seeking to devour, but Jesus, IS I AM.

IMO, Jesus was different from us in the sense that he did not inherit sinful blood as a descendant from Adam but untainted blood directly from the Holy Spirit impregnating Mary. That is why the Blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. In Adam,and his sinful blood, we all die.
In Jesus, we are washed clean in his blood and given Life.

yeah..the life is in the blood..and Jesus said that God had granted Him to have life in Himself...

and we were told..'ye have no life in yourself" for when sin entered.

.we become as blood of a dead man[all in Adam died]

  for this reason..we must remain in the vines..and can do nothing of ourselves..and are grafted in

to the root of life..that we may LIVE BEFORE HIM

  for the spirit of the prince of this world/air is dead and brings forth dead works/vanity

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 21, 2012, 03:10:42 PM
oman, it is not a matter of being too bold to declare. It is stating as absolute fact rather than your opinion. You have studied for years I'm sure. Many of us have studied a subject for years and then found after years of study - our conclusions had been wrong. If you stay with just the instances in which the Bible mentions Satan, you will find some seeming contradictions.

I've read books from cults that will take 40 or 50 or 100 pages to "explain" one verse but what they are really doing is trying to convince others of a pet theory. I'm not saying there is anying wrong with this but IMO with the Bible, Occams Razor, (The simplest and most straightforward) reading is what is most likely true.

One more thing, Has this "special knowledge" of Satan helped you be a better, more caring, more loving person? Or does it make you feel somewhat superior for knowing more than others on a particular subject.

E.G. I don't care what Catholics say about Mary. She was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus our lord and that's about all is mentioned about her. Why? Because she is a very small part of what it is important to know. If you take the Catholic view that she is the "Queen of heaven" The "Mother of God" and that SHE was "born of a virgin" herself, the scant mention she has is blown way out of proportion and cannot be backed biblically.

Ded2world it is about rightly dividing the truth as we are commanded to do. I don't declare things I have not understood to be true. If it is a topic I am unsure of in anyway I keep researching it. This one happens to be so simple, it takes one verse "but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. The satan that temps Christ is just personified sin, the bible uses personification multiple times, not just this once. Love is the most important thing to do but it does not make everything else of no value. God gave us the bible to study it, and to seek out the truth and to come to a knowledge of it. If we go around declaring falsehood about the scripture to other believers and non-believers then how does that help anyone, and how does it build up? When I am questioned by non believers I am able to defend the bible and show often times logical people who have written off the bible that it is not always what it seems.

I disagree with you any of you who say Jesus was not a man like we are, because the bible says he was. he was tempted in every way, just as we are. This is the whole point of Christ, he was tempted like we are, yet was without sin. Sure God created him for this purpose to be strong enough to resist but he still had to feel the strain of resisting the temptation or else what is the point. Just before he was crucified you can see the pain he goes through in the garden trying to reason a way out of being crucified but in the end submits to God will. He is obedient even unto death.

Jesus coming in the flesh is extremely important to understand, "Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist." "For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man," 

My point Oman is that you understanding a subject to be true after years of study
still does not make it true. Members in the forum discussion are encouraged to express
opinions. If you are an authority on a subject - write a book, if you are expressing
yourself on a discussion forum, it is IMO or  :2c:
No absolutes. Fine to quote the bible and we encourage this, but don't tell us what it means, tell us what you think it means.

I guess for me, what those who consider Satan man's carnal nature really miss is that we are at the epicenter of a war in heaven between good and evil, and we are being thwarted, frustrated, and attacked by the bad guys and cheered on, watched, and helped by the good guys.



For I suppose that God has appointed us Apostles at last, as for death, that we would be a stage play for the universe, for Angels and for men.

--1 Cor 4:9


They were told that their messages were not for themselves, but for you. And now this Good News has been announced to you by those who preached in the power of the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. It is all so wonderful that even the angels are eagerly watching these things happen.  1 Peter 1:12


His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,

--Eph 3:10

Amen Molly!

 

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 21, 2012, 08:30:43 PM
My point Oman is that you understanding a subject to be true after years of study
still does not make it true. Members in the forum discussion are encouraged to express
opinions. If you are an authority on a subject - write a book, if you are expressing
yourself on a discussion forum, it is IMO or  :2c:
No absolutes. Fine to quote the bible and we encourage this, but don't tell us what it means, tell us what you think it means.

This is where we have confusion, it is not my opinion. It is clearly stated in the bible in plain language."but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed." I am simply quoting the bible, it says man is tempted by his own desires, not his own desires and fallen angels, God, other men, or anything else. "
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses,
but we have one who has been Tempted In Every Way, Just As We Are--yet was ... " There is no opinions involved in this, if you can find contrary scripture that says anything other than this THEN it would be based in my opinion. However since we have facts 1. Jesus was tempted  just as we are 2. We are only tempted by our own desires. From these two facts we can draw a factual conclusion, he was tempted by an adversary that is his own desires. If you want to argue with reason or simply because you do not like how I proclaim something as a fact instead of my opinion then that is up to you but I'm sorry it does not take away from it being a fact.

"2. We are only tempted by our own desires. From these two facts we can draw a factual conclusion, he was tempted by an adversary that is his own desires."

Rom 8:20  For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21  Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Should you my friend, desire to believe that your carnal mind is your adversary then be free to do so.

 Oman said " 1. Jesus was tempted  just as we are 2. We are only tempted by our own desires    From these two facts we can draw a factual conclusion, he was tempted by an adversary that is his own desires. If you want to argue with reason or simply because you do not like how I proclaim something as a fact instead of my opinion then that is up to you but I'm sorry it does not take away from it being a fact."

Faulty logic.  For example, Since the bible clearly states that "everone has sinned and falls short of the glory of God" and Jesus is just like us, then it is a clear established bible proven fact that Jesus sinned.
You know, I never even said whether or not I disagree with you. As moderator, it's kinda my job to make sure things stay civil and this remains a discussion forum. Not a debate or argument website or where people can make bold statements as if what they were saying was what God didn't get a chance to tell us previously.

Quote from: omantodd2000 on December 21, 2012, 09:19:28 AM
Eaglesway,Satan does not always mean our lower self or desires of the flesh. It is an adversary and can mean anything that is an adversary depending on the context of the verse it is in. Sometimes it is the flesh, Pharisees,romans,or even an angel of God that stood as an adversary to Balaam. One thing it is never is a fallen angel or the mythical creature that people associate him with. I am sorry if you find me to bold on the topic declaring what it means, I only do this because I have studied this for years. I am not going to debate you on it, you are free to disagree with me on any or all points I have made. Just take them as my opinion on the topic and study it for yourself and draw your own conclusions. I would never want anyone to take anything I say as fact and not look it up for themselves.

Nor would I. We must all study to show ourselves approved. As to whether Satan is a myth- that is your opinion, as you stated- and that is more in line with the forum guidelines. We have all studied for years here :o). None of us has "the unalterable truth" as far as I can see. The goal is to discuss our differences of opinion in a conversational, not confrontational, tone.

For instance, the idea you present that an angel of God could have been Balaam's adversary but that the idea of Satan as a spiritual being and adversary is "never" possible seems rather out of sync.

In one way I agree with you though. "Every man sins when he is drawn away by his own lusts....."

Altho I do believe that Satan is an actual spiritual being, i believe his only access to us is through our own lusts. Neither do I believe he is behind all the evil in the world. There is also evil in man himself, self initiated.

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 21, 2012, 10:38:27 PM
Oman said " 1. Jesus was tempted  just as we are 2. We are only tempted by our own desires    From these two facts we can draw a factual conclusion, he was tempted by an adversary that is his own desires. If you want to argue with reason or simply because you do not like how I proclaim something as a fact instead of my opinion then that is up to you but I'm sorry it does not take away from it being a fact."

Faulty logic.  For example, Since the bible clearly states that "everone has sinned and falls short of the glory of God" and Jesus is just like us, then it is a clear established bible proven fact that Jesus sinned.
You know, I never even said whether or not I disagree with you. As moderator, it's kinda my job to make sure things stay civil and this remains a discussion forum. Not a debate or argument website or where people can make bold statements as if what they were saying was what God didn't get a chance to tell us previously.

Your  faulty logic argument is incorrect because the bible clearly tells us he didn't sin. It is about putting all the pieces together, not taking one piece of information and excluding the others. So we would have the knowledge that all men have sinned, but also the knowledge that Jesus was without sin. Again two facts that add up to All men have sinned, apart from Jesus who has not. Unlike this example I did not exclude any information from my argument.

I am simply trying to show you that not everything is opinion, there are things that are opinion and others that are facts. We should take facts for facts and not argue about things clearly stated in the bible. 

Quote from: eaglesway on December 21, 2012, 11:15:09 PM

Quote from: omantodd2000 on December 21, 2012, 09:19:28 AM
Eaglesway,Satan does not always mean our lower self or desires of the flesh. It is an adversary and can mean anything that is an adversary depending on the context of the verse it is in. Sometimes it is the flesh, Pharisees,romans,or even an angel of God that stood as an adversary to Balaam. One thing it is never is a fallen angel or the mythical creature that people associate him with. I am sorry if you find me to bold on the topic declaring what it means, I only do this because I have studied this for years. I am not going to debate you on it, you are free to disagree with me on any or all points I have made. Just take them as my opinion on the topic and study it for yourself and draw your own conclusions. I would never want anyone to take anything I say as fact and not look it up for themselves.

Nor would I. We must all study to show ourselves approved. As to whether Satan is a myth- that is your opinion, as you stated- and that is more in line with the forum guidelines. We have all studied for years here :o). None of us has "the unalterable truth" as far as I can see. The goal is to discuss our differences of opinion in a conversational, not confrontational, tone.

For instance, the idea you present that an angel of God could have been Balaam's adversary but that the idea of Satan as a spiritual being and adversary is "never" possible seems rather out of sync.

In one way I agree with you though. "Every man sins when he is drawn away by his own lusts....."

Altho I do believe that Satan is an actual spiritual being, i believe his only access to us is through our own lusts. Neither do I believe he is behind all the evil in the world. There is also evil in man himself, self initiated.

Well you are free to hold that as your opinion but you will not be able to back it up with scripture.   I also believed in a physical satan for most of my life, so did many other Christians. When I first heard someone tell me there is no satan i was like oh sure right, Satan wants you to believe that, then he wins. However I studied the topic and had to change my mind and that is why I am telling you. God does not want us as Christians to believe incorrect things. Also I would add that the NT says "This testimony is true therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith and will pay no attention to JEWISH MYTHS or to the commands of those who reject the truth." The idea that satan is a physical being was not believed by Jews in the past and most don't believe in that now. It was part of their Jewish mythology made up around the time of Jesus. After that some people started to believe it and had to be rebuked. Much of it is written in the book of Enoch, well known jewish folklore.

 Now a long way off from them, a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31 "If You drive us out," the demons begged Him, "send us into the herd of pigs."

32 "Go!" He told them. So when they had come out, they entered the pigs.

The demon possesed pigs killed them selves because of there own desires leading them away?

I don't believe in a physical satan/it is you that publish that as the lusts in our physical body

  and mind, being the adversary.   I believe in a wicked evil spirit adversary that does tempt man,deceive

man/afflict man/blind man/cripple man, enter man; and put to death man in the image of God.

  some he enters..some it is another human he enters to put you to death.

   Satan is an evil spirit used as a negative wicked contrast to the good/holy spirit of God......to educate

the children of God in this exercize of good/evil contrast

  WE WAR NOT AGAINST FLESH AND BLOOD.

  a physical satan? you call him that when you say it is the evil desires of our flesh

Quote from: sheila on December 22, 2012, 01:06:02 AM
I don't believe in a physical satan/it is you that publish that as the lusts in our physical body

  and mind, being the adversary.   I believe in a wicked evil spirit adversary that does tempt man,deceive

man/afflict man/blind man/cripple man, enter man; and put to death man in the image of God.

  some he enters..some it is another human he enters to put you to death.

   Satan is an evil spirit used as a negative wicked contrast to the good/holy spirit of God......to educate

the children of God in this exercize of good/evil contrast

  WE WAR NOT AGAINST FLESH AND BLOOD.

  a physical satan? you call him that when you say it is the evil desires of our flesh

WOW. That opened my eyes.

Quote from: sheila on December 22, 2012, 01:06:02 AM
I don't believe in a physical satan/it is you that publish that as the lusts in our physical body

  and mind, being the adversary.   I believe in a wicked evil spirit adversary that does tempt man,deceive

man/afflict man/blind man/cripple man, enter man; and put to death man in the image of God.

  some he enters..some it is another human he enters to put you to death.

   Satan is an evil spirit used as a negative wicked contrast to the good/holy spirit of God......to educate

the children of God in this exercize of good/evil contrast

  WE WAR NOT AGAINST FLESH AND BLOOD.

  a physical satan? you call him that when you say it is the evil desires of our flesh

:dsunny:

Quote from: dajomaco on December 22, 2012, 12:40:06 AM
Now a long way off from them, a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31 "If You drive us out," the demons begged Him, "send us into the herd of pigs."

32 "Go!" He told them. So when they had come out, they entered the pigs.

The demon possesed pigs killed them selves because of there own desires leading them away?

When they came to Jesus, they saw the man who had been possessed by the legion of demons, sitting there, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid.

Once the demons were cast out he is described as being in his right mind, he had all the symptoms of what we today would call a schizophrenic.

Cast out is an Aramaic phrase which means restore to sanity, you can read about this if you pick up any George Lamsa book on Idioms. I believe he also has some interesting things to say about why it was the swine that they were cast into.

I think the flesh makes us susceptible to the evil spirits of Satan and his minions.

This would be why when we walk in spirit instead of in flesh we are not susceptible.

It would also be why we are to put on the [spiritual] armor of God every day--because our enemy is spiritual, not flesh and blood.

Jesus, of course, was the most spirit filled man who ever walked the face of the earth.  He had the Spirit without measure.

Because Jesus has condemned sin in the flesh, we are able to walk in the spirit, and these evil spirits are subjected to us in his name.


Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in union with the Messiah Jesus.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

--Rom 8:1-2

Quote from: omantodd2000 on December 22, 2012, 01:49:21 AM

Quote from: dajomaco on December 22, 2012, 12:40:06 AM
Now a long way off from them, a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31 "If You drive us out," the demons begged Him, "send us into the herd of pigs."

32 "Go!" He told them. So when they had come out, they entered the pigs.

The demon possesed pigs killed them selves because of there own desires leading them away?

When they came to Jesus, they saw the man who had been possessed by the legion of demons, sitting there, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid.

Once the demons were cast out he is described as being in his right mind, he had all the symptoms of what we today would call a schizophrenic.

Cast out is an Aramaic phrase which means restore to sanity, you can read about this if you pick up any George Lamsa book on Idioms. I believe he also has some interesting things to say about why it was the swine that they were cast into.

So a group of pigs got schizophrenia from two different men.
Pigs with schizophrenia kill them selves .

wow, oman, you gotta go a long way to get to schizophrenic pigs committing suicide. I find that much harder to believe than disembodied spirits or demons.  :laugh:

Quote from: eaglesway on December 22, 2012, 05:04:20 AM
wow, oman, you gotta go a long way to get to schizophrenic pigs committing suicide. I find that much harder to believe than disembodied spirits or demons.  :laugh:

It was the man that was schizophrenic not the pigs. I just realized that I am basically trying to explain to children why the boogie man does not exist.

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I found another post on this forum where the person asked in 2010, Who is Satan?  I would suggest you all should read it from the start and see what others have to say on the topic. Here is one I especially liked and is very eloquently written.

"And here in this thread lies the perfect example of what sound does.  Everyone is singing the song of spiritual sound.  Each may sing a different note, but each note harmonizes with the others and the song of what's being said rings true.  I relate to every one of your thoughts and posts. 

Satan is not what Jesus called Peter.  The translators chose that word, the original word Jesus said to Peter was "adversary".  Which is what one of the previous posts here eluded to.  When Jesus was tempted in the wilderness . . .the king of darkness, as tradition percieves satan to be . . .the king of darkness has NOTHING that would ever tempt Jesus.  Yet Scripture says he indeed was tempted.

However, when we see Jesus, as God who manifests fully in flesh, we then can understand that even in the fleshly manifestation of Jesus was a carnal thinking mind that needed to be aligned before his ministry could affect the world as originally intended.  Jesus needed to put his flesh into submission and that's all that was happening in the wilderness. 

From the serpent in the garden of Genesis to the dragon in Revelation this carnal force has been in existance in every mind of man.  It's the most subtle "beast" in all the field.  This was not a depiction of natural snakes, but it "is" a principle of how carnality works in our lives.  Satan is the carnal force subtly at work in my mind.  Which means it works just under my awareness.  My mind is dependant on knowledge, carnality is the governing force that influences my natural mind, thus making it an adversary to the nature of God. 


Satan is what my carnal mind is . . .it's an adversary.  The "devil" is what my mind "does".  The authors of Scripture never used "devil" either.  What they did use was "traducer" which is our term for "accuser".  My carnal mind accuses me night and day of my shortcomings and my failures.  Quoting Scriptures may win the battle, but the war continues on.  It's not until we exercise the authority in us and command the alignment to manifest that we finally shut the enemy down all together.  That's what Jesus did with Peter when he called him satan and that's what Jesus did with his own mind in the wilderness.  "Get thee behind me" is a decree of alignment."

In my understanding, the adversary "uses" the carnal mind [the carnal mind is the channel] but the adversary/traducer is not the carnal mind. My understanding/opinion.

Oman said, "When Jesus was tempted in the wilderness . . .the king of darkness, as tradition percieves satan to be . . .the king of darkness has NOTHING that would ever tempt Jesus.  Yet Scripture says he indeed was tempted."

So you can either deny scripture says Jesus was tempted by satan or the alternative would be where it says satan has nothing that would tempt Jesus.
It's possible that satan has nothing to tempt Jesus because satan has nothing. period. nothing that Jesus didn't give him or allow him.

Being tempted to turn stones into bread is not an evil desire since food is a requirement for life. Doing it because satan suggested it however, is never a good idea - especially when the forty days is a time of testing and Jesus passed the test of putting the will of the father before his own.

I wonder if anyone thinks that Satan was testing Jesus because he doubted that Jesus was the Son of God?

He tries to get Jesus to perform miracles [stone to bread], jump off a pinnacle and caught by angels, and worship him.

Jesus, who could have presumably done all of these things, refused.

But, what would have happened had Jesus agreed to any of them?

How would things have been different?

Even the demons knew that Jesus was God in the flesh - they thought he was coming for "early torment"
Since satan doesn't know everything, perhaps he was curious how Jesus would react.
I was a sales trainer. 'It never hurts to ask" Jesus refused and satan was none the worse for asking. (Could satan have it worse? :dontknow:)

Quote from: Molly on December 22, 2012, 04:30:20 PM
I wonder if anyone thinks that Satan was testing Jesus because he doubted that Jesus was the Son of God?

He tries to get Jesus to perform miracles [stone to bread], jump off a pinnacle and caught by angels, and worship him.

Jesus, who could have presumably done all of these things, refused.

But, what would have happened had Jesus agreed to any of them?

How would things have been different?

I believe things would have been different. Good question. As you Molly have said before, the devil is the god of this world, all the devil offered had been given to him. If Jesus would have agreed He would have bowed to that god.. and I, and you would not have the peace we rest in. Just my opinion.

Heaven forbid,if the Son of God,who come to do the will of the Father,should do the will of Satan.....who

is satan,that the son of God should do his will? no matter what guise[prove it]

  it is always a missing of the mark..to ever do the will of satan

hey Micah, when I was ready to post..your post was at the same time!! double wittness

Thanks!

So how would this relate to us?

Are we tempted by Satan to do his will just to 'prove it'--that we can?

That we are who we say we are?

Is there a type of temptation that would cause us to betray God for the enemy out of pride, or something else?

Quote from: Molly on December 22, 2012, 05:03:24 PM
Thanks!

So how would this relate to us?

Are we tempted by Satan to do his will just to 'prove it'--that we can?

That we are who we say we are?

Is there a type of temptation that would cause us to betray God for the enemy out of pride, or something else?

Any type of temptation would do the trick.
For me, I am tried every single day in my walk and I have bandages on elbow and knees. I understand that whatever befalls me, whether it be my own choice or any trouble I face or good that I may do, is of my Father. It is His grace that works in me and it is His faith that keeps me giving the glory to Him for all things. The adversary desires for me to NOT have that knowledge.
Job 2:10  But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

well,Molly..to me,part of it is realizing any gift[spiritual or material] He should give us..is not to elevate

us over the brothers..but to be used to elevate/minister to our Brothers....It should always be used to build up

the whole body..not build up ourselves in their eyes[selfishness]. So that all needs are met...

  the gifts are like talents..we are to use them to increase our Father's holdings/Kingdom......His interests

  not our own selfish interests[God pleasers not men pleasers]

  and Micah is right about Job's words....indeed He has set up this exercize in good/evil for His children

eternal good...and we must face that..but He has promised  no weapon[evil] formed against you shall

suceed..

 

Yes! Amen!

I believe Satan essentially tempted Jesus with the same things that had caused him to be "drawn away of his own lusts and enticed" and "fall like lightning out of the hevens", but as I have said many times, there is not enough written (imo) to make confident assertions about how he came to be what he is. If Jesus was not temtped then I think all of this begins to take on the bogus tone of a meaningless facade or "danse macabre".

Jesus, in the flesh, was "tempted in all ways as we are yet without sin"- He overcame in every instance of temptation, perhaps the greatest of those moments being in the Garden at Gethsamane. His victory, as a sacrifice Lamb- a spotless offering, is made all the more poigniant for us in that He was tempted as we are- overcame- and yet paid our penalty. This is why it is written that we have a high priest who can "sympathize with our weakness". He was was here. He tasted it in far more human fashion than religionists would have us believe.

At some point, we believe that the adversary will bow his knee and confess with his tongue that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father- because he has been won into the light. Therefore I consider it a reasonable possibility that as the the Father is using the church to teach His wisdom to the principalities and powers in the heavenly realms, Jesus' reaction to these temptations was also a part of the Father's plan to redeem the adversary, for it must remain in his mind that Jesus overcame him by the wisdom of God.

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 22, 2012, 04:21:02 PM
Oman said, "When Jesus was tempted in the wilderness . . .the king of darkness, as tradition percieves satan to be . . .the king of darkness has NOTHING that would ever tempt Jesus.  Yet Scripture says he indeed was tempted."

So you can either deny scripture says Jesus was tempted by satan or the alternative would be where it says satan has nothing that would tempt Jesus.
It's possible that satan has nothing to tempt Jesus because satan has nothing. period. nothing that Jesus didn't give him or allow him.

Being tempted to turn stones into bread is not an evil desire since food is a requirement for life. Doing it because satan suggested it however, is never a good idea - especially when the forty days is a time of testing and Jesus passed the test of putting the will of the father before his own.

IMO,Jesus had been baptized by John and given the Holy Spirit. (Matt. 3:16). How was the power to be used? To make life easy by using the power for selfish purposes (making stones into bread)? By "converting" Israel through dazzling displays of divine power (by casting himself down from the pinnacle of the temple)? By avoiding the agony and humiliation of crucifixion and death by taking the kingdoms of the world (his miracles would have assured this - cf. John 6:14, 15)? These are possible explanations for the specific temptations. All would be of Jesus's own desires. Christ knew the scripture and that God rules in the kingdoms of men and gives power to whomever he pleases. If it were anyone else offering him the kingdoms of men it would not be a temptation, satan would not have the power to give him those kingdom. This power rests only with God and God had already given that power to Christ, that is why it was a temptation to him. Instead of giving into it he was obedient unto death. So do you believe satan has the power to give kingdoms or does God?

Quote from: omantodd2000 on December 22, 2012, 07:00:53 AM

Quote from: eaglesway on December 22, 2012, 05:04:20 AM
wow, oman, you gotta go a long way to get to schizophrenic pigs committing suicide. I find that much harder to believe than disembodied spirits or demons.  :laugh:

It was the man that was schizophrenic not the pigs. I just realized that I am basically trying to explain to children why the boogie man does not exist.

Now since the children have flesh and blood in common, Jesus also shared in these, so that through His death He might destroy the one holding the power of death—that is, the Devil —

IMO satan has the power to do whatever God allows him to.
Just as with Job, Satan can do a lot, but only with permission.
Permission that fits in with God's plan.
"Where there is no temptation, there is no virtue" - Jeff Smith

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 22, 2012, 10:53:15 PM
IMO satan has the power to do whatever God allows him to.
Just as with Job, Satan can do a lot, but only with permission.
Permission that fits in with God's plan.
"Where there is no temptation, there is no virtue" - Jeff Smith

I agree with that

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 22, 2012, 10:53:15 PM
IMO satan has the power to do whatever God allows him to.
Just as with Job, Satan can do a lot, but only with permission.
Permission that fits in with God's plan.
"Where there is no temptation, there is no virtue" - Jeff Smith

The adversary/satan IS God's plan. There is no allowing by God, IT IS God who causes....ALL things to do, and that includes the adversary. IT'S ALL GOD or it's no GOD.

Quote from: eaglesway on December 22, 2012, 08:10:49 PM
I believe Satan essentially tempted Jesus with the same things that had caused him to be "drawn away of his own lusts and enticed" and "fall like lightning out of the hevens", but as I have said many times, there is not enough written (imo) to make confident assertions about how he came to be what he is. If Jesus was not temtped then I think all of this begins to take on the bogus tone of a meaningless facade or "danse macabre".

Jesus, in the flesh, was "tempted in all ways as we are yet without sin"- He overcame in every instance of temptation, perhaps the greatest of those moments being in the Garden at Gethsamane. His victory, as a sacrifice Lamb- a spotless offering, is made all the more poigniant for us in that He was tempted as we are- overcame- and yet paid our penalty. This is why it is written that we have a high priest who can "sympathize with our weakness". He was was here. He tasted it in far more human fashion than religionists would have us believe.

At some point, we believe that the adversary will bow his knee and confess with his tongue that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father- because he has been won into the light. Therefore I consider it a reasonable possibility that as the the Father is using the church to teach His wisdom to the principalities and powers in the heavenly realms, Jesus' reaction to these temptations was also a part of the Father's plan to redeem the adversary, for it must remain in his mind that Jesus overcame him by the wisdom of God.

When you say this, "I believe Satan essentially tempted Jesus with the same things that had caused him to be "drawn away of his own lusts and enticed" and "fall like lightning out of the hevens"

Just what do you mean?

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 22, 2012, 10:53:15 PM
IMO satan has the power to do whatever God allows him to.
Just as with Job, Satan can do a lot, but only with permission.
Permission that fits in with God's plan.
"Where there is no temptation, there is no virtue" - Jeff Smith

But, don't get too comfortable because in the last days Satan indwells a man.  He which has been holding Satan back, no longer holds him back.

And, then for 3.5 years, it's Annie bar the door because all Hell will break loose.

IMO, of course.


For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now restraineth will restrain, until he be taken out of the way.
--2 Thess 2:7

Better stated the adversary indwells man(humanity un-repentant).

well, I call him Satan so as to be as clear as possible.

But, when you look at all the evil in the world, it's hard to believe he is being held back [he is], and it's hard to imagine what things will look like when he's not.



But woe to the earth and the sea,
    because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
    because he knows that his time is short."

--Rev 12:12

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 23, 2012, 05:42:24 AM

Quote from: eaglesway on December 22, 2012, 08:10:49 PM
I believe Satan essentially tempted Jesus with the same things that had caused him to be "drawn away of his own lusts and enticed" and "fall like lightning out of the hevens", but as I have said many times, there is not enough written (imo) to make confident assertions about how he came to be what he is. If Jesus was not temtped then I think all of this begins to take on the bogus tone of a meaningless facade or "danse macabre".

Jesus, in the flesh, was "tempted in all ways as we are yet without sin"- He overcame in every instance of temptation, perhaps the greatest of those moments being in the Garden at Gethsamane. His victory, as a sacrifice Lamb- a spotless offering, is made all the more poigniant for us in that He was tempted as we are- overcame- and yet paid our penalty. This is why it is written that we have a high priest who can "sympathize with our weakness". He was was here. He tasted it in far more human fashion than religionists would have us believe.

At some point, we believe that the adversary will bow his knee and confess with his tongue that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father- because he has been won into the light. Therefore I consider it a reasonable possibility that as the the Father is using the church to teach His wisdom to the principalities and powers in the heavenly realms, Jesus' reaction to these temptations was also a part of the Father's plan to redeem the adversary, for it must remain in his mind that Jesus overcame him by the wisdom of God.

When you say this, "I believe Satan essentially tempted Jesus with the same things that had caused him to be "drawn away of his own lusts and enticed" and "fall like lightning out of the hevens"

Just what do you mean?

Luk 10:18  And He(Jesus) said unto them, "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven".

Jesus saw Satan fall like lightning from out of the heavens. This is one reason why I believe the "you were the anointed cherub until iniquity was found in you" passage  refers to Satan.

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
(Eze 28:13-17)

I am not pressing this as doctrine, it is prophetic and literally obscure- but it is what I believe is a "thru the glass darkly" insight into the origins and nature of Satan. He was Lifted Up.

The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers. He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke(taskmaster), he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth. The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us. Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming(satan and the beast and the false prophet chained): it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: :
(Isa 14:5-13)

I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north

He took Jesus up to a high place and showed Him all the kingdoms of the earth and said this is all mine to give you. He thought the desire of his heart would win the Son of God to him. It did not. He had been ejected from his stewardship for seeing himself not as a part of a tapestry, but as the focus of the plan, the center of all. That was when iniquity was found in him and like lightning instantly he was no longer the anointed cherub that covers he became the prince of the power of the air, the father of lies, the author of confusion.

As you said earlier, Satan indwells unrepentant humanity. God gave stewardship to Adam. Adam gave it over to the enemy.

I also think those prophecies are a peek into the one who is to come in all deceiving miracles and power of Satan, the final and greatest anti-christ of them all, who sets himself in the holy place above God and every so-called God, doing abominations and speaking out blasphemy against God and the hosts of heaven, warring against and wearing out the saints- that gy that Molly was just talking about.

I believe that God saw all this beforehand, it was a part of the plan.

Quote from: Molly on December 23, 2012, 06:00:14 AM
well, I call him Satan so as to be as clear as possible.

But, when you look at all the evil in the world, it's hard to believe he is being held back [he is], and it's hard to imagine what things will look like when he's not.



But woe to the earth and the sea,
    because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
    because he knows that his time is short."

--Rev 12:12

I don't know how to explain this but i will just say it the way i immediately i saw it, this post jumped
out as total confusion. The thought was just who is or has power? i don't mean to "stir up" it just happened when I read it. :sigh: :HeartThrob:

Quote from: eaglesway on December 23, 2012, 06:13:35 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 23, 2012, 05:42:24 AM

Quote from: eaglesway on December 22, 2012, 08:10:49 PM
I believe Satan essentially tempted Jesus with the same things that had caused him to be "drawn away of his own lusts and enticed" and "fall like lightning out of the hevens", but as I have said many times, there is not enough written (imo) to make confident assertions about how he came to be what he is. If Jesus was not temtped then I think all of this begins to take on the bogus tone of a meaningless facade or "danse macabre".

Jesus, in the flesh, was "tempted in all ways as we are yet without sin"- He overcame in every instance of temptation, perhaps the greatest of those moments being in the Garden at Gethsamane. His victory, as a sacrifice Lamb- a spotless offering, is made all the more poigniant for us in that He was tempted as we are- overcame- and yet paid our penalty. This is why it is written that we have a high priest who can "sympathize with our weakness". He was was here. He tasted it in far more human fashion than religionists would have us believe.

At some point, we believe that the adversary will bow his knee and confess with his tongue that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father- because he has been won into the light. Therefore I consider it a reasonable possibility that as the the Father is using the church to teach His wisdom to the principalities and powers in the heavenly realms, Jesus' reaction to these temptations was also a part of the Father's plan to redeem the adversary, for it must remain in his mind that Jesus overcame him by the wisdom of God.

When you say this, "I believe Satan essentially tempted Jesus with the same things that had caused him to be "drawn away of his own lusts and enticed" and "fall like lightning out of the hevens"

Just what do you mean?

Luk 10:18  And He(Jesus) said unto them, "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven".

Jesus saw Satan fall like lightning from out of the heavens. This is one reason why I believe the "you were the anointed cherub until iniquity was found in you" passage  refers to Satan.

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
(Eze 28:13-17)

I am not pressing this as doctrine, it is prophetic and literally obscure- but it is what I believe is a "thru the glass darkly" insight into the origins and nature of Satan. He was Lifted Up.

The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers. He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke(taskmaster), he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth. The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us. Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming(satan and the beast and the false prophet chained): it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: :
(Isa 14:5-13)

I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north

He took Jesus up to a high place and showed Him all the kingdoms of the earth and said this is all mine to give you. He thought the desire of his heart would win the Son of God to him. It did not. He had been ejected from his stewardship for seeing himself not as a part of a tapestry, but as the focus of the plan, the center of all. That was when iniquity was found in him and like lightning instantly he was no longer the anointed cherub that covers he became the prince of the power of the air, the father of lies, the author of confusion.

As you said earlier, Satan indwells unrepentant humanity. God gave stewardship to Adam. Adam gave it over to the enemy.

I also think those prophecies are a peek into the one who is to come in all deceiving miracles and power of Satan, the final and greatest anti-christ of them all, who sets himself in the holy place above God and every so-called God, doing abominations and speaking out blasphemy against God and the hosts of heaven, warring against and wearing out the saints- that gy that Molly was just talking about.

I believe that God saw all this beforehand, it was a part of the plan.

If you chose to believe what you believe, ill not "stir it up." God bless :HeartThrob:

oh Molly..that's exactly what I was shown day before yesterday[man of sin,man of lawlessness revealed

when He who restrains/holds back..is taken out of the way...every man's hand shall be against his brother..

  it is the revealing of the man of sin. demonic 'madness'[his time is short] asexhibited in the sandy hook

  travesty.

Quote from: Molly on December 23, 2012, 06:00:14 AM
well, I call him Satan so as to be as clear as possible.

But, when you look at all the evil in the world, it's hard to believe he is being held back [he is], and it's hard to imagine what things will look like when he's not.



But woe to the earth and the sea,
    because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
    because he knows that his time is short."

--Rev 12:12

I read this on Hall Worthington's site awhile back. It certainly won't be pretty but I say bring it on because the Lord's army will prevail and the end of all sin and evil and death is nigh! Praise God and Hallelujah!!

Quote from: sheila on December 23, 2012, 05:49:38 PM
when He who restrains/holds back..is taken out of the way...every man's hand shall be against his brother..

  it is the revealing of the man of sin. demonic 'madness'[his time is short] asexhibited in the sandy hook

  travesty.

It does seem like it's starting to happen now, doesn't it?

Things we never would have imagined in the past are happening with more and more frequency.   Same is true, it seems, for natural disasters.  Who ever heard of a tidal wave hitting New Jersey?  Although the Long Island Express of 1938 was apparently pretty bad.

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 23, 2012, 05:18:50 PM

Quote from: Molly on December 23, 2012, 06:00:14 AM
well, I call him Satan so as to be as clear as possible.

But, when you look at all the evil in the world, it's hard to believe he is being held back [he is], and it's hard to imagine what things will look like when he's not.



But woe to the earth and the sea,
    because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
    because he knows that his time is short."

--Rev 12:12

I don't know how to explain this but i will just say it the way i immediately i saw it, this post jumped
out as total confusion. The thought was just who is or has power? i don't mean to "stir up" it just happened when I read it. :sigh: :HeartThrob:

Even though evil exists, it is now being held back.

It's important to note that evil knows no boundaries.  It has no foundation.  It just keeps sinking lower and lower.  It's like goodness in freefall into the depths of the abyss.

What is holding evil back in this world?  I assume the Holy Spirit, as carried in the earthen vessels of God's people.  Why will the Holy Spirit be taken out of the way?  It could refer to the rapture.  Or it could be that, as Daniel says, the holy people are so broken and constrained by the Antichrist that they have to more power to intervene.

But, this is what will happen according to the prophets.

Yes..and God says   My spirit will not always strive with man, in that he is but flesh

The Long Island Express was much worse than this storm. It was the density of population in the affected areas that made this storm so devastating. If the Long Island Express storm was to hit LI today it is estimated that as many as 250,000 people would die.

Nevertheless, I do believe the 'birth pangs' are quickening.

Quote from: lomarah on December 23, 2012, 05:52:13 PM

Quote from: Molly on December 23, 2012, 06:00:14 AM
well, I call him Satan so as to be as clear as possible.

But, when you look at all the evil in the world, it's hard to believe he is being held back [he is], and it's hard to imagine what things will look like when he's not.



But woe to the earth and the sea,
    because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
    because he knows that his time is short."

--Rev 12:12

I read this on Hall Worthington's site awhile back. It certainly won't be pretty but I say bring it on because the Lord's army will prevail and the end of all sin and evil and death is nigh! Praise God and Hallelujah!!

You and I have been given a glimpse of this.  It's silly obstacles to the right and to the left, but it has an impact.  And, while you're going through it, it's frustrating and even maddening.  Maybe we are being given an exercise in staying centered in Christ right now.

Ezekiel 7;10  the day is here,it has come. Doom has burst forth[son of perdition doomed to destruction]

  arrogance has blossomed. Violence has  grown into a rod to punish wickedness[meaning God will take

care of the violence of the wicked one by destroying him] None of the people will be left,none of that crowd

[gogs]-no wealth,nothing of value......................

....the Lord will do away with him with the breath of His coming.....

Sheila, at the same time the wise will do exploits, until or unless their power is broken, which will also happen to some.



35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

--Dan 11

Great tribulation [Matt.24:21] Day of the Lord [Acts.2:20] is there a difference?

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 23, 2012, 06:22:45 PM
Great tribulation [Matt.24:21] Day of the Lord [Acts.2:20] is there a difference?

In my opinion, the Day of the Lord and the great tribulation start at the same time.

The great tribulation lasts for 3.5 years.

The Day of the Lord lasts for 1000 years.  [1000 years as a day in his sight].

Quote from: Molly on December 23, 2012, 06:06:25 PM

Quote from: lomarah on December 23, 2012, 05:52:13 PM

Quote from: Molly on December 23, 2012, 06:00:14 AM
well, I call him Satan so as to be as clear as possible.

But, when you look at all the evil in the world, it's hard to believe he is being held back [he is], and it's hard to imagine what things will look like when he's not.



But woe to the earth and the sea,
    because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
    because he knows that his time is short."

--Rev 12:12

I read this on Hall Worthington's site awhile back. It certainly won't be pretty but I say bring it on because the Lord's army will prevail and the end of all sin and evil and death is nigh! Praise God and Hallelujah!!

You and I have been given a glimpse of this.  It's silly obstacles to the right and to the left, but it has an impact.  And, while you're going through it, it's frustrating and even maddening.  Maybe we are being given an exercise in staying centered in Christ right now.

Yeah Moll and you won't even believe what happened a few days ago. I'll pm you.

I think the "he that restrains" is the Holy Spirit, but taken out of the way simply means that His restraint in preventing Anti-Christ from fully manifesting is removed.... as some have said, and I agree, the adversary operates in whatever authority he is allowed. "Because they received not a love of the truth they will be given over to strong delusion...." is what takes the restraints off. IMO it is important to understand that the Holy Spirit will never be taken out of the earth. The dawn that began on Pentecost will grow until the full noon at the second advent.

For evidence of this ask yourself how the following things occur if the Holy Spirit is taken out of the earth.

People will be saved during the tribulation and they will fight(do spiritual battle) with the "seed of the dragon".

They will "overcome him by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony" and "love not their lives unto death"

They will "do exploits" and they will "lead the many to righteousness" and "shine like the stars of heaven" in the midst of great darkness

The will be beheaded for their testimony that Jesus is Lord- no man says Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit

IMO  they will do all this and more in the full armor of God, by the power of the "gospel sword" under the anointing of the Spirit.

"Not by might nor by power but by my Spirit says the Lord"

And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
(Rom 10:15)

Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
(Rom 15:19)

And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.
(Rom 15:29)

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
(Luk 4:18-19)


Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
(Rom 16:25-26)

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. b
(1Co 1:21

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
(2Co 4:3-6)

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
(Eph 1:13)

IMO Knowing LOVE and responding to our brothers ,sisters and neighbors
in Love as we know it. Is all a person needs to know about fighting evil.
Smart bombs no more Love.
Assault weapons no more Love.
I know form personnel experience that love can disarm.
I know this to be a fact If I was going to face an evil person with an
AK 47. I would not bring any weapons of my own only the hope that knowing
Jesus was all I needed.
 
You can tell me the bible says there are goats and sheep.
I know there are only Shoats and Geeps.

Glass people before him-
Transparent beings from his own hand.
Who can see thru glass with eyes of glass?
But the glass blower knows,
He sees them there.
Glass people-
Handle with care.

A slip of the hand and crash
But the glass blower,
He been a long time at His craft

Glass people before him-
Transparent beings from his own hand.
Who can see through glass with eyes of glass?
But the glass blower knows,
He sees them there.
Glass people-
Handle with care.

Quote from: dajomaco on December 24, 2012, 09:12:28 PM
IMO Knowing LOVE and responding to our brothers ,sisters and neighbors
in Love as we know it. Is all a person needs to know about fighting evil.
Smart bombs no more Love.
Assault weapons no more Love.
I know form personnel experience that love can disarm.
I know this to be a fact If I was going to face an evil person with an
AK 47. I would not bring any weapons of my own only the hope that knowing
Jesus was all I needed.
 
You can tell me the bible says there are goats and sheep.
I know there are only Shoats and Geeps.

"IMO Knowing LOVE and responding to our brothers ,sisters and neighbors
in Love as we know it. Is all a person needs to know about fighting evil."  :dsunny: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

Yeah, fighting evil or the evil within the future brother or sister. "We fight not against flesh and blood..."

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 25, 2012, 02:37:03 AM

Quote from: dajomaco on December 24, 2012, 09:12:28 PM
IMO Knowing LOVE and responding to our brothers ,sisters and neighbors
in Love as we know it. Is all a person needs to know about fighting evil.
Smart bombs no more Love.
Assault weapons no more Love.
I know form personnel experience that love can disarm.
I know this to be a fact If I was going to face an evil person with an
AK 47. I would not bring any weapons of my own only the hope that knowing
Jesus was all I needed.
 
You can tell me the bible says there are goats and sheep.
I know there are only Shoats and Geeps.

"IMO Knowing LOVE and responding to our brothers ,sisters and neighbors
in Love as we know it. Is all a person needs to know about fighting evil."  :dsunny: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

This is a sweet sounding platitude, but we are to be as wise as serpent and as harmless as doves.

If we are only as harmless as doves we will be without sin and spotless.
If we are not also as wise as a serpent we will be spotless but ineffective.

Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
(Eph 6:10-13)

If the bible tells me there are sheeps and goats there is a reason for it and I respect the wisdom of God as expressed in the scriptures- and walk in love towards all as well.

Quote from: eaglesway on December 25, 2012, 07:08:20 AM
we are to be as wise as serpent and as harmless as doves.

If we are only as harmless as doves we will be without sin and spotless.
If we are not also as wise as a serpent we will be spotless but ineffective.

Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
(Eph 6:10-13)

If the bible tells me there are sheeps and goats there is a reason for it and I respect the wisdom of God as expressed in the scriptures- and walk in love towards all as well.

Well said.  Amen.

"Well said. And Amen" Is there an explanation as well for well said and Amen? Not to be whimsical, but just what does that mean?

Well said means the person has expressed a view in a way they would have responded to the post if the other had not posted first.
Amen actually means "So be it" but in recent years it has changed to mean, "I agree with you wholeheartedly"

I know what you're saying Micah and it's a tough call for me.
On the one hand, do I allow others to do as they will to me and my family in the name of total reliance on and dependence on the Lord?"
On the other hand, do I do what I can to help, save, and or protect myself and family?

Do you wear a seatbelt only because it's the law of the land or because you aren't totally trusting God to protect you.
God gave us a brain to use and statistics don't lie - seatbelts save lives - because you are wearing it for God's sake?
IMO, God wants us to use seatbelts even though he could miraculously intervene (and I've seen that happen also)

Hopefully, I won't ramble this much in later posts :Pray:

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 26, 2012, 03:35:40 PM
Well said means the person has expressed a view in a way they would have responded to the post if the other had not posted first.
Amen actually means "So be it" ...

Well said.    :laughing7:

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 26, 2012, 03:35:40 PM

On the one hand, do I allow others to do as they will to me and my family in the name of total reliance on and dependence on the Lord?"
On the other hand, do I do what I can to help, save, and or protect myself and family?

IMO, God wants us to use seatbelts even though he could miraculously intervene (and I've seen that happen also)

Amen.    :Peace2:

Mark 12;32  Well said,teacher,the man replied. You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but Him.

   

You call Me Teacher and Lord. This is well said, for I am.

Yes, I am, and it is I who said that there are sheep and there are goats ;o)

I am a sheep and a goat.
I am a vessel made for destruction and glory.
I am two men lying in a bed one is left one is taken.
The distinction between the old man.
The distinction between the new man.
The more I am aware of the separation between the Me Goat and the Me sheep.
The more peace I have .When I walk in the spirit I can always see that which
unites me with every one born of the seed of Adam.
When I walk in the flesh I see sheep and goats.
The tree of life or the tree of the knowledge of good or evil.
IMO unless the holy spirit interprets scripture I am reading mans interpretation
of the Bible.
It is important to believe and I post here because I believe.
I love that tent maker posters believe strongly in what they post.
IMO It would be hard to believe that the holy spirit would show
scripture and we all received the same nugget.
The holy spirit could reveal an important and spiritually significant verse
in Genesis and show it only to you.
He could do that for every person on earth and still be in the book of Genesis.
 
Of course we are shown different views but we are all looking at and longing for the greater revelation of the crucifixion of Jesus the Christ.   

 :thumbsup:

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
(Mat 25:31-46)

I see it as a grave error to relegate ALL those verses to parable fulfilled in an individuals life. There is a very clear revelation of how God separates those who are to receive a reward from those who are to endure kolassis.

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
(1Co 3:13-15)

Sheep walk as the Lamb and lay down their lives.


You have to walk "in the spirit" to see the sheep and the goats- and still love the goats. Discernment is not judging. It is one of the means by which we are able to minister.

Peter, Paul, Jesus, James, you name it- they did not speak to everyone as if they beheld sheep before them. Seeing sheep and goats is walking in the flesh only if you do not love both the sheep and the goats. IMO, Seeing everyone as sheep is not seeing as the Lord sees, excepting that of course- at the end of the ages, after the reconciliation is complete, every living being will be as the sheep of His pasture.

Now however, There are sheep, there are goats, there are serpents, there are wolves in sheeps clothing, there are Leviathans, there are Behemoths, there are Jezebels, there are sons of the adversary, sons of disobedience and in the last days those who walk in the spirit are able to discern them and minister to them, some with mercy, some with fear-hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
(Heb 4:12-13)

Does a sheep, a goat, a dragon, a wolf, a behemoth potentially live in us all? Yes, I believe that is true. It does not however eliminate the discernment of both word and spirit as it applies to the religious spirits and the sorcerers and the wicked of this world. As Paul put it, "And among them we too all walked as adversaries....but you were reconciled".

But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith. Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him, And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord? And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.
(Act 13:8-11)

We are not told what became of Elymas, or what he became- but in the moment Paul addressed him was he judging him? In a manner, yes- but the spiritual man judges all things while he himself is judged of no one. In other words, Paul was walking in the spirit, his discernment was of God, and God exposed the enemy through Paul- not by mercy. IMO it is an error to fail to understand that we still live in an age of discernment and judgment and that loving all is what we are called to, not loving all blindly. Which is harder I wonder?

Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
(Joh 8:41-44)
Jesus answered, If I honor myself, my honor is nothing: it is my Father that honors me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
(Joh 8:54-56)

To say seeing sheep and goats is walking in the flesh is simply, IMO, self-aggrandizing a particular doctrinal position that does not stand up to the scrutiny of the word of God or the spirit of God.

And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
(Mat 3:6-10)

Quote from: eaglesway on December 28, 2012, 04:47:46 AM

There is a very clear revelation of how God separates those who are to receive a reward from those who are to endure kolassis.


Peter, Paul, Jesus, James, you name it- they did not speak to everyone as if they beheld sheep before them.  IMO, Seeing everyone as sheep is not seeing as the Lord sees, excepting that of course- at the end of the ages, after the reconciliation is complete, every living being will be as the sheep of His pasture.

Now however, There are sheep, there are goats, there are serpents, there are wolves in sheeps clothing, there are Leviathans, there are Behemoths, there are Jezebels, there are sons of the adversary, sons of disobedience and in the last days those who walk in the spirit are able to discern them and minister to them, some with mercy, some with fear-hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
(Heb 4:12-13)

Does a sheep, a goat, a dragon, a wolf, a behemoth potentially live in us all? Yes, I believe that is true. It does not however eliminate the discernment of both word and spirit as it applies to the religious spirits and the sorcerers and the wicked of this world. As Paul put it, "And among them we too all walked as adversaries....but you were reconciled".

Love all, live at peace with all as much as lies within us - but most of mankind are at present enemies of God.  Light and darkness don't mix.  A little leaven...     Do good to 1) all,   ESPECIALLY   2) those of the household of faith. (Gal. 6:10)

Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 2 Corinthians 5:20

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 26, 2012, 03:35:40 PM
Well said means the person has expressed a view in a way they would have responded to the post if the other had not posted first.
Amen actually means "So be it" but in recent years it has changed to mean, "I agree with you wholeheartedly"

I know what you're saying Micah and it's a tough call for me.
On the one hand, do I allow others to do as they will to me and my family in the name of total reliance on and dependence on the Lord?"
On the other hand, do I do what I can to help, save, and or protect myself and family?

Do you wear a seatbelt only because it's the law of the land or because you aren't totally trusting God to protect you.
God gave us a brain to use and statistics don't lie - seatbelts save lives - because you are wearing it for God's sake?
IMO, God wants us to use seatbelts even though he could miraculously intervene (and I've seen that happen also)

Hopefully, I won't ramble this much in later posts :Pray:

I do not wear a seat belt, I know it's a law, but I find the law and infringement on my my safety. As for statistics,  I have not seen nor heard of statistics on how many would have lived had they not worn seat belts. Besides, should it not be a persons choice as to whether they use a seat belt or not?  I speak as a voting citizen.

Ezekiel 34;17  As for you,my flock,this is what the Sovereign Lord says,'I will judge between one sheep

and another. and between rams and goats.........See...I  myself will judge between a fat sheep and a lean sheep.

  YOU,MY SHEEP  the sheep of my pasture..are people,and I am your God.


  wow..look what sheep do!  Is it not enough for you to feed on the good pasture? Must you also trample

  the rest of your pasture with your feet?Is it not enough for you to drink clear water,but must you

muddy the rest with your feet?Must my flock feed on what you have trampled and drink what you have muddied

  with your feet.

  See, I myself will judge between the fat and lean sheep,Because you shove with flank and shoulder

  butting all the weak sheep with your horns,until you have driven them away. I will save my flock,and they

will no longer be plundered.I will judge between one sheep and another. I will place over them one shepherd

My servant David,and He will tend them. I the Lord will be their God and my servant David will be Prince among

them

If a man think he does a righteous work, and say  zealously go off  taking you to court,accuse you and

kill you and think he does God a favour..will not that evil pretend religious spirit go off into the fire when

ordered so". Did not Paul shake a serpent into the fire?The islanders thought devine justice had seized him,

  that work of Pauls hand was surely burnt up in the fire.....he counted it all loss..those works of righteousness

  But Paul was saved..as through fire.[serpent shaken into fire]..Paul,Paul,why do you persecute me?



.  there are wolves in sheeps clothes[flesh of men/evil spirits in mens hearts]

   SHEEPS ARE PEEPS!!

 
  The disciple came to Him and asked.."why do you speak to the people in parables?"

  the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you,but to others I speak in parables

  so that,,though seeing they may not see;though hearing they may not understand.

 

Dan 8  Look at the Vision of the RAM and GOat....Ezekiel 34;17....and between Rams and Goats.

 Dan 8;16  Gabriel,tell this man the meaning of the vision. As he came near the place I was standing

  I was terrified and fell prostrate..'Son of man,he said to me..UNDERSTAND that the vision

concerns the time of the end.....

   I will tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath...Because the Vision concerns the

appointed time of the end.   The two-horned ram represents THE KINGS of Media and Persia

the shaggy GOAT is the King of Greece[principalities in high places]   He will cause deceit to prosper

  he will take his stand against the prince of princes

  the goat set himself up to be as great as the Prince of the Host,it took away the daily sacrifice from him,

and the place of his sanctuary was brought low. Because of rebellion the host of the saints and the daily

sacrifice were given over to it...AND TRUTH WAS THROWN TO THE GROUND.

  when Jesus seperates the people as sheep from goats...He makes a distinction of those who because

of rebellion come under the goat[speak boastfully..take away daily sacrifice..throw truth to the ground...

  UNTIL...........

   what do you think the daily sacrifice taken away from Prince of the Host is?

For me, unless I've misunderstood him, the thing Pierson taught, that everybody is already saved, simply grieves my heart.  It's a far fall from being a witness to the truth of God as "the savior of all mankind, specially those that believe."

Quote from: reFORMer on December 28, 2012, 09:09:29 AM
For me, unless I've misunderstood him, the thing Pierson taught, that everybody is already saved, simply grieves my heart.  It's a far fall from being a witness to the truth of God as "the savior of all mankind, specially those that believe."

I agree.  IMO, we can go too far one way or another.  Deceit is deceit.  Preaching eternal torment hurts people, teaching everyone they're already "A-OK" also hurts them.   :2c:

well,I believed their already saved by His sacrifice.  But only this needs be done by Him...As I judged

  your Fathers in the desert of the land of Egypt,so will I judge you,declares the Sovereign Lord.

   I WILL TAKE NOTE OF YOU AS YOU PASS UNDER THE ROD[whether a rod of wrath and shepherded

  with an iron rod/nations and broken as of pottery by Him..or disciplined here and now] And I will bring

you into the BOND of the covenant. I will purge you of those who rebel and revolt against me....

although I will bring them out of the land where they living,yet they will not enter the Land of Isreal.[lof]

  the purging I see Jesus doing is the casting out of unclean,evil spirits.

   A free gift is a free gift....a reward something else.

If they're already saved, why would there be so many instructions (including Paul to the jailor) on how to be saved (believe)?  Also, why would Paul make such distinctions between those in the faith and those not, as well as saying we're ambassadors to proclaim to folks to "be reconciled to God"?  As I understand, yes, it's all the free gift.  However, God has reconciled Himself to mankind through the sacrifice/gift of His Son, but all mankind has not as yet been reconciled to God (been spiritually reborn).  Only some in this age (only as God wills) the rest in the age(s) to come.  In order.  Every knee WILL bow (future tense) and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord.  How is one saved/spiritually reborn according to the scriptures?  "If you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth Jesus.. you will be saved" - "no one can confess Jesus as Lord but IN (literal translation) the Holy Spirit".   IMO, if I tell people they're OK whether they believe or not, I may be participating in setting them up for kolasin aionios.   :2c:  (and speaking of rewards for the saved - I imagine mine will be few).

P.S.  I DON"T believe in condemning people or judging them.  I believe we are to love and help them.  But (even though I do a lousy job of it) I DO believe in sharing with them Jesus is the Savior and asking if they'd like to call on Him to save and forgive them.  (I also know there are things I don't understand or have a full/clear picture of.  Also, anything I am or ever will be is only by His grace and mercy.)   :HeartThrob:

Surely knowing God/Jesus and having a personal relationship with him in this life
is preferable to going your whole life without understanding or seeing the truth.
IMO, People want to hear "everything is allright" so they can continue to "do their own thing" and mess up their own life.
Just as atheist don't want there to be a God, each person just wants to "do what's right in their own eyes."

History shows this is disastrous. Honoring God and others is love centered.
Doing whatever you want because "it'll all be OK in the end" is self-centered.

As to the post question, "satan[adversary]is saved? My answer would be a yes.
Or the ALL in ALL would not be ALL in ALL. 1Co 15:28  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

How or why, well that is a question as well. The way I understand it, God the Creator has a purpose and reason for ALL things and one of all those things was an ruthless and fearful adversary.
Isa 55:8  For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith Jehovah.
That is a truth.

And I believe all who the Father has drawn to Jesus, is in the process of being saved[made whole, healed] imo.

QuoteSHEEPS ARE PEEPS!!

Ahahaha I almost fell out of my seat with laughter! That was too cute Sheila. :)

I think the problem here is, what is everyone's definition of being saved? Sheila may have something different in mind than the rest of you maybe? Personally, being saved to me means (at least in part) being freed from sin (and deception falls into the category of sin). It is obvious that most of the human race are still slaves to sin (myself included) and are thus at present either "not saved" (unbelievers and "Christians" by name only), or are being saved (true believers who press in and seek and experience the changing power of God and the progressive freeing from sin).

To me, until I am as free as Jesus was, as free from sin as He was, until I am like Him in this world, I am still in the process of being saved. I am still part of the groaning creation, longing for the glorious freedom of the Sons of God. I get tastes and glimpses.... and I have never longed for anything more than Him. Ohhhhh I get so excited thinking about it!!! The whole creation being set free... just think of it!!!

I did not know I was saved.
Until I believed .
Once I believed I was saved the Holy Spirit showed me.
Showed me that I was already saved.

I could not know that I was already saved until after I believed .

I can tell some one that they ARE ALLREADY SAVED .
But unless they believe my words have no power.
I know every thing will come clean in the wash.

Unless the Holy Spirit reveals the power in my words.

So if you are lead of the Holy Spirit speak words of Salvation .

Is Satan saved eventually?
Everything I know tells me God is eternal .
There is no darkness in him.
There is no --------     in him.
I will eternally know that there is no -------- in him.
What is -------- that I will know for all of eternity that God has none of.
I will know for all eternity what ----------  is. How -------- made the light
attractive to me .That Jesus had Saved me from --------.

--------= darkness?

Quote from: lomarah on December 28, 2012, 05:54:35 PM
Ohhhhh I get so excited thinking about it!!! The whole creation being set free... just think of it!!!

The Law of the Jubilee gives us a glimpse of that "being set free" in the world of the here-and-now.  Everyone who has had to sell himself into slavery goes free, and can return to their inheritance, their home, the "old home place."

Quote from: dajomaco on December 28, 2012, 08:09:57 PM
I did not know I was saved.
Until I believed .
Once I believed I was saved the Holy Spirit showed me.
Showed me that I was already saved.

I could not know that I was already saved until after I believed .

I can tell some one that they ARE ALLREADY SAVED .
But unless they believe my words have no power.
I know every thing will come clean in the wash.

Unless the Holy Spirit reveals the power in my words.

So if you are lead of the Holy Spirit speak words of Salvation .

Is Satan saved eventually?
Everything I know tells me God is eternal .
There is no darkness in him.
There is no --------     in him.
I will eternally know that there is no -------- in him.
What is -------- that I will know for all of eternity that God has none of.
I will know for all eternity what ----------  is. How -------- made the light
attractive to me .That Jesus had Saved me from --------.

Sounds nice and sweet, but runs contrary to the scriptures. All those who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. A provision has been made for our reconciliation- the blood of Jesus, and for the whole world also, but they are not yet saved, unless the have received the reconciliation. Was Noah's generation already saved? What efficacy then the ark? Why build it at all?

Luk 8:12  Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. - Jesus

But Jesus, don't you know? They were already saved!

Joh 5:34  But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. - Jesus

But Jesus, don't you know? They were already saved!

Joh 10:9  I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. -Jesus

But Jesus, don't you know? They were already saved!

Joh 8:23-24  And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.



Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved(realize that you are already saved), and thy house.
(Act 16:30-31)

It is one thing to REALIZE THE PROVISION HAS BEEN ALREADY MADE FOR OUR DELIVERANCE AND BELIEVE IT AND RECEIVE IT. It is another thing to think you were already saved, and teach it as the gospel. IMO, that language exceeds the revelation of Jesus and the apostles.

For you are saved by grace through faith,
and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift—

Then everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to people, and we must be saved by it."

"Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."

I don't know I am saved until I believe.
I know I am not saved by my believe I am saved by grace
My abilities to believe is a gift.
Won for me by Jesus given freely.
Not as reward for my believe
but as an encouragement for me, to keep seeking the truth.
When I found out I didn't have to love Jesus.
I was free to Love him.
When I found out I didn't have to believe.
I was free to believe because it was the truth.
You can only be free to know and find the truth if you are willing to risk
finding a lie.


If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!

That all sounds nice and I agree- you can't know you are under a lie until you see the truth. That is by grace and until you see it you are under the lie. That is what you get saved from, and while you are under it, you are not yet saved from it. 

I had just come in and turned on the TV.  It came on with a live broadcast just about a mile or so from me.  I think I can quote what he said.  Carlton Pierson just began with "Now brethren, I know I'm going to touch a sacred cow here," mentioning how we need to take a closer look at what we're teaching when we make God worse than Stalin or Iddy Ammin (sp?)  That was all of it!

In the next couple of days I saw them lie about him.  Paul Crouch said something false about him.  I saw Pat Robertson say he was teaching another way of salvation other than Jesus.  His female sidekick said, "I believe I'll just stay with my Bible, Pat."

I presume that was in reference to what I've been accused of too.  If people don't accept Jesus before they die and you say they'll eventually be saved anyway, the torture lovers say you teach they'll be saved by fire, another way than Jesus.  But scripture says, "...each one's work will become apparent, for the day will make it evident, for it is being revealed by fire. And the fire, it will be testing each one's work -- what kind it is.  If anyone's work will be remaining which he builds on it, he will get wages.  If anyone's work shall be burned up, he will forfeit it, yet he shall be saved, yet thus, as through fire." (1 Co 3^13-15, CLT)

But what Carlton Pierson taught, unless I've misunderstood him,  that everybody is already saved, simply grieves my heart.  It's a far fall from being a witness to the truth of God as "the savior of all mankind, specially those that believe." (1 Ti 4¹⁰)  What a witness to the truth he might've been we can only wonder; but, that people practicing homosexuality don't have to repent?  They're already saved?  There was a news hour for television that brought out these things about Carlton.  That it should become such a fiasco, falsely confirming what many have been wrongly taught is the inevitable result of believing in Universal Salvation is very hard to take!

It is so rebuked by the presence of many sincere and devout Christians worldwide who know the salvation of God.  They couldn't exist if Carlton's friends and their doctrine were correct.  Jesus was called a friend of sinners, but He told them to change their minds.  Most people who've come out of a gay lifestyle don't go around with a target on their back, advertising themselves as "ex-gay."  That many are married, going to work to provide for their families and regularly participating in local church groups is a hated truth that radical elements want to silence.  It's very similar to alcoholism, as far as going in the right way is concerned.  Live in those sins of the flesh and you are not inheriting the realm in which God is in control.

1 Co 6^9-11, Concordant Literal...
9 Or are you not aware that the unjust shall not be enjoying the allotment of God's kingdom? Be not deceived. Neither paramours, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor catamites, nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards; no revilers, no extortioners shall be enjoying the allotment of God's kingdom.
11 And some of you were these, but you are bathed off, but you are hallowed, but you were justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and by the spirit of our God.

Live in those sins of the flesh  and you are not inheriting the realm in which God is in control.

Live in those (good deeds) of the flesh  and you are not inheriting the realm in which God is in control.

That is absolutley tru, the flesh profits nothing, only the spirit gives life.


Rom 2:29  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Rom 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

God knows who is in the flesh and who is in the spirit.

But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some. Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness."
(2Ti 2:16-19)

Quote from: reFORMer on December 29, 2012, 07:36:24 AM

But what Carlton Pierson taught, unless I've misunderstood him,  that everybody is already saved, simply grieves my heart.  It's a far fall from being a witness to the truth of God as "the savior of all mankind, specially those that believe." (1 Ti 4¹⁰)  What a witness to the truth he might've been we can only wonder; but, that people practicing homosexuality don't have to repent?  They're already saved?  There was a news hour for television that brought out these things about Carlton.  That it should become such a fiasco, falsely confirming what many have been wrongly taught is the inevitable result of believing in Universal Salvation is very hard to take!

Unfortunately, I believe what you say is correct.

Quote from: reFORMer on December 29, 2012, 07:36:24 AM
It is so rebuked by the presence of many sincere and devout Christians worldwide who know the salvation of God.  They couldn't exist if Carlton's friends and their doctrine were correct.  Jesus was called a friend of sinners, but He told them to change their minds.

Agreed.  Good post.

well,now..the jews had a hard time accepting  God's mercy to gentiles..and God extending that to

others,in thier day. The disciples also were accused of  of the same thing.Every time God makes a

a move to 'increase His Glory' in the Priesthood..satan is  resisting[Joshua's change of Garments.]

  One thing to remembe;r the hard time of transition from law to grace back in Jesus day....

  Don't forget..in the last days He pours out His spirit on ALL FLESH..now certainly it is His spirit

that sanctifies..even more than any man repenting or anything else.Everything is accomplished of His spirit

  what..a man saying 'i repent' has more power then God pouring out His Holy spirit and sanctifying?


also,do NOT forget the weightier matters of the LAW OF LOVE  that Our God has..such as JUSTICE

and MERCY[all men bear the image of the corrupt,all shall bear the image of the incorrupt one]

   Legally through God's law..they are all justified.

  God and Christ will move along at thier own pace...those who do not move with them will be left behind.

  Now Jesus Christ revelation the first time...made the religious leaders of the day lose some of their

'exclusiveness" and now Christian churches are feeling the same..with this ALL inclusiveness that

is declared of God.

  Who is going to stop GOD and JESUS from raising someone from the dead? You? Me?

  The GLORY OF GOD AND JESUS CHRIST SALVATION OF ALL CAN NOT BE STOPPED BY MEN

can not be stopped by satan..nor any power.

  First the LOVE of GOD that will have ALL MEN SAVED..The JUSTICE of GOD that All men bear the image

of HIS SON.

Now..when salvation went forth to the gentiles..God evidenced it by pouring out His Holy spirit on them..

  He had to give a vision to Peter 3 times for him to catch on to what God was doing....be looking

for things like this. as He moves....Peter had to testify..and say..what else was I to think..should

I resist God? when He give them the Holy spirit?

   Now,God took out a people for His name..and satan made a move against them..God again made a

move and brought in Gentiles..and satan moved against them..God is now making a move and

shall take all men...and satan is moving against them.

all men shall be receivers of the grace of God..jew..christians..all[sinners]......

  He's trying to change your Preistly garments..but satan is resisting

Sheila, what's your opinion of the 'rapture' described in 1 thess 4?

Is all humanity going to participate in that?  Or just the elect?

ALL............. so if God gave them the same gift as He gave us,who believed in the Lord Jesus,

  who was I to think I could oppose God?

....and in the last days,I shall pour out my spirit on all flesh.

Ok, so there is not a rapture of just the believers, then, is this in accord with 1 Thess 4?

The dead in christ rise first--so you are saying all the dead are in Christ?

Then we who remain--means all living people?

Then, what is the second resurrection?

And, who are all those people still outside the city in Rev 22?

I am saying that the dead in Christ (those who have fallen asleep in the Lord), precede those who are alive and remain(rapture/parousia), at the first resurrection, which occurs at the coming of the Lord, at the last trumpet(1 cor 15:52, 1 thess 4:16, Mt 24Rev 11:15). We know from john's epistle that "when He appears we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is", and, we shall be changed "in a moment in the twinkling if an eye, at the last trump" and that the "dead" in Christ"(all those who have died in the Lord up until He comes to "gather His elect form the four winds"Mt 24).

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

When Jesus comes in the clouds, the  Hebrews 12: comes with him

all men are either dead in Christ or live unto Christ..He is Lord of the living and the dead.the dead He resurrects

   Joshua 3 crossing the Jordan[baptism of death]

  so when the people broke camp to cross the Jordan[camp of the Holy city] the priests carrying the

  Ark of the covenant went ahead of them.....Now the Jordan is at flood stage[dragon floods/death plague]

  though they pass tyhrough the water].....all during harvest............yet as soon as the preists who

carried the ark reached the Jordan..and their feet touched the waters edge..the water from

upstream stopped flowing. the Preists who carried the ark[testimony of Jesus]..stood firm

on dry ground in the middle of the Jordan.....WHILE ALL ISRAEL PASSED BY[ALL REDEEMED MEN]

  When the whole nation had finished crossing the Jordan...take up 12 stones from the middle of the Jordan

    tell them that the flow off the Jordan[death] was cut off  before the Ark of the covenant of the Lord..

   Death is cut off from the face of all men.

  those overcome of the dragon are the dead in Christ..fallen men in the spiritual warfare with the dragon

  He raises them up

  God has given 'tokens' of the fullness of the spiritual work He is doing.  Joshua's change of garments..

  Paul,as one of the class that were to be saved last[resisted Christ in favour of old covenant] Paul showed this

as being born prematurely.  The gentile believers added by the spirit such as Cornelius and others

who beleived,are but tokens of the FULLNESS OF GOD'S REDEMPTIVE WORK TOWARDS MAN IN CHRIST

   He has given men..these 'tokens' of salvation..the sinners that ate with Christ,the tax-collectors..the harlots

  all of this evidence of 'tokens' of the spirit of HIS FULLNESS........so  all former prostitutes and immoral

women[receive free gift] lepers,blind,deaf,sinners,all that are despised..dogs..etc..whatever former

abhorrant state that man was in when he bore the image of the corrupt...

  God has don ea 'token' work of His spirit in Christ on this earth..but the time of fullness has arrived

  the floodgates of heaven are about to open so that He pour forth a blessing upon man..til there is no more want

now..I ask You......How can He give you more[fullness] when you are curled up in a ball clutching the

"  token" He already give you..and will not open your arms up to receive it?

ok.....Paul kept hoping for the better resurrection[fullness that is in the city..for with just the token of the spirit

we can have access to go in and out but not 'dwell with the Lord forever] we deal with the sin in our flesh

which is a lesser resurrection[resurrection of the righteous and the wicked=sin in our flesh]

  outside are the sinful things in our corrupt flesh[flesh and blood can not inherit] only in the spirit

do we commune with that city and sit in it.[token]..the fullness..the first resurrection is the upward call

to always dwell with the Lord..

  Christ is the resurrection..and His spirit in you/token is what makes you spiritually alive..but it is the fullness of it

that is given that makes a first resurrection[immortal/incorruptible]

  that is why satan can go forth and deceive and war and fight and still overcome..as long as we remain this

good/evil mix in our being..

  this is further evidenced by Jesus bringing to life those who had died..back to a physical existence..yes..

they are living..but they can still be overcome with sin and death as long as they dwell in weakcorrupt flesh

   that city has all former humans in it..raised up in fullness/celestial bodies..and we...with our token

have access to it. But until the time of our fullness/change we can not dwell with the Lord forever in it..

we go in and out

Sheila, are you saying the believers will be the priests that hold back death [stand in the middle of the Jordan] so the rest of humanity can cross over?

Sheila - wow. I can't even begin to say how much those posts blessed me. And if the Lord is trying to change my garment I am more than willing!

QuoteGod has done a 'token' work of His spirit in Christ on this earth..but the time of fullness has arrived  the floodgates of heaven are about to open so that He pour forth a blessing upon man..til there is no more want

This made me cry tears of joy.

I thank God for people like you and Card who aren't afraid to speak what the Lord has given you, no matter how likely it is you'll be stoned by men. Those of the church of the Philadelphians.  :HeartThrob:

the Ark of the Covenant is Jesus..He broke through the way for all men to cross over..In reality it is God

that does the work through His son..I am the first and I am the last..that is why we which remain

alive and wait for Him are with the end/last to cross over.

  this is also tesified to in Jacob/Israel..when He returned from Labans land[leprosy]  He sent others ahead

  and Rachael and Joseph and him brought up the rear.

  further testified to in Sos..who is this coming  up from the wilderness[this world/good/evil exercize] like

the sun and the moon and the stars in procession.

   When the heavens roll up like a scroll[in one place/Holy city]] it is all Gods children[that fell to earth]

   dragged back up into heaven/Holy city.....as HE MAKES ALL THINGS NEW

when you start seeing secular newspapers declaring HIGH SPIRITUAL REALITIES in their headlines..

  when you see common musicians speaking HIGH SPIRITUAL TRUTHS in their song lyrics...

  then you can know that He is pouring out His spirit on all flesh.

  when I see or hear of spiritual dreams being given to people who have no or little understanding..

  I know He is pouring out His spirit on all flesh.

  also..when you see satan's reaction and demonic madness to this move of His spirit.....you know

  He is near and even at the door.

Sheila yes amen :HeartThrob:

Quote from: lomarah on December 29, 2012, 05:33:58 PM
Sheila - wow. I can't even begin to say how much those posts blessed me. And if the Lord is trying to change my garment I am more than willing!

QuoteGod has done a 'token' work of His spirit in Christ on this earth..but the time of fullness has arrived  the floodgates of heaven are about to open so that He pour forth a blessing upon man..til there is no more want

This made me cry tears of joy.

I thank God for people like you and Card who aren't afraid to speak what the Lord has given you, no matter how likely it is you'll be stoned by men. Those of the church of the Philadelphians.  :HeartThrob:

Re:  speak what the Lord has given ---> stoned by men...

Lomarah, I agree... but I do want to share what the Lord has shown me just this week  (actually reminded me of what He had shown me a few years ago!!)

This will be a bit long -- I share it in sisterly love.

I've been a victim of stone throwing; extremely painful--and I was very discouraged at the time as I had shared what the Lord had shown me joyfully anticipating the hearer's praising, thanking God for His great love, mercy, wisdom.

I finally realized they were not "hearing" the message; they saw only the messenger (one who had separated from all man-organized churches.)

Also on at least one occasion when the Lord had shown me something so spectacular in the book of Job, He very quickly added (not in a still small voice:)  )but in an audible voice: "Now don't go making a teaching out of this, for now it's just for your own growth."

Also, I've been encouraged by like-minded and perhaps like-tempered (personality) friends to share whatever the Lord has shown me and leave it with Him... He will quicken the word to whosoever's heart He wills...

Also (I have many also's!!) very recently He has shown me that He enjoys showing/revealing great spiritual truths to His many, many different "personalitied" children.  Personalities can get in "our" way; but never in the Lord's way...

I'm grateful to Tentmaker Forum for allowing the different writing styles (poetic, prose, etc.)
in sharing what has been learned; to ask questions; to answer questions; or simply to just comment with "Amen...well said."

 :goodpost:  :cloud9:

Quote from: eaglesway on December 29, 2012, 04:27:00 PM
I am saying that the dead in Christ (those who have fallen asleep in the Lord), precede those who are alive and remain(rapture/parousia), at the first resurrection, which occurs at the coming of the Lord, at the last trumpet(1 cor 15:52, 1 thess 4:16, Mt 24Rev 11:15). We know from john's epistle that "when He appears we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is", and, we shall be changed "in a moment in the twinkling if an eye, at the last trump" and that the "dead" in Christ"(all those who have died in the Lord up until He comes to "gather His elect form the four winds"Mt 24).

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

When Jesus comes in the clouds, the  Hebrews 12: comes with him

:thumbsup:  That seems scripturally sound John.

Suggestion - clarifying, questioning - even disagreeing - isn't stoning.

But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;

but test all things. Hold on to what is good.   I Thes. 5:21

Quote from: seekfirst on December 29, 2012, 07:59:06 PM
I'm grateful to Tentmaker Forum for allowing the different writing styles (poetic, prose, etc.)
in sharing what has been learned; to ask questions; to answer questions; or simply to just comment with "Amen...well said."

Amen..well said.   :bigGrin:

Quote from: jabcat on December 29, 2012, 08:47:44 PM
Suggestion - clarifying, questioning - even disagreeing - isn't stoning.

But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;

but test all things. Hold on to what is good.   I Thes. 5:21

:thumbsup:


I was gonna say, Who's stoning Sheila?  :laugh:

I have more questions but, I'm taking a break now.

Ahaha no one here is stoning Sheila, I didn't mean that!

Quote from: lomarah on December 29, 2012, 09:01:34 PM
Ahaha no one here is stoning Sheila, I didn't mean that!

:eek:    :laugh:    :thumbsup:

if so, we're using some awfully soft rocks   :LH:    :HeartThrob:

or maybe we just all throw like girls   :footmouth:

Any sharing of anything different from what the majority believes is always liable to bring stoning. I'm not saying that anyone has stoned her here. Only that she is risking it for truth's sake.

Quote from: jabcat on December 29, 2012, 09:05:34 PM
if so, we're using some awfully soft rocks   :LH:    :HeartThrob:

or maybe we just all throw like girls   :footmouth:

Alright now YOU are liable to get stoned Mr jab! Come on a bit closer and I'll show you how hard a girl can throw!! ROFLOL

 :help:

 :thewife:

HAHAHAHA

Jabcat --Lomarah

Oh those wonderful personalities.... I think I'll go make myself a cup or two of cappuccino... happy stoning!!!!!!!!  the gentle--oops-- the gender way !!!!

.....that's the way it's always been...first thing that happened to Peter after he followed the Holy spirits leading was he got

accused..."YOU WERE IN A GENTILE'S HOUSE..AND THAT IS UNLAWFUL"

     there was no little commotion about it.  We all expierence it when we try and share with others out in

  christendom/babylon.

  seems like we don't want anything 'changed' and thats the very thing we need. It is less 'scary' to stay where we are

  then to 'step out' in faith.  'I will lead them by a way they have not traveled before"

   add to that all the legitimate warnings of deception ..and that we are to be 'cautious'......

  what else you gonna do?

   at the mouth of two or three wittness's let every matter be established.

Seekfirst, I love to carry on with jab, he takes it like a real man. :P

Sheila yeah, and I have definitely been a "stoner" before. (Not in the heavy drugs way, in the accusatory way lol). It IS scary when your whole worldview is turned upside down and you start to realize that everything you thought was true was actually the greatest lie of the century. Go figure lol!

 

Quote from: lomarah on December 29, 2012, 09:46:16 PM
Seekfirst, I love to carry on with jab, he takes it like a real man. :P

:cheerleader:          :wink1:

Quote from: jabcat on December 29, 2012, 10:09:11 PM
 

Quote from: lomarah on December 29, 2012, 09:46:16 PM
Seekfirst, I love to carry on with jab, he takes it like a real man. :P

:cheerleader:          :wink1:

Okay girls, I don't have any more time to play today.  I just read about 100 of the replies on this thread and found a scripture that answers a BIG quandary I have had about just who or what is Satan...  I found it in reply #3... by WhiteWings -- the scripture is from 1 John 3:8... another of the blessings of reading Tentmaker Forum... so many scriptures and quite frequently I'm led to a thread on the very day I'm asking the Lord to show me something... well, can't play, but I can pray.... :Pray:

I believe we are coming out of the desert.as I told people prior to the apocalypse, it is a shift spiritually , I sense a new hope, and personally I am feeling alonging for the supernatural , that all things are possible,
But the clincher is   Waiting on God. And not running ahead
Blessings as He pours out his spirit
The things of old will fall away as we sense his glory his love and it will
Happen automatically ,but wait on his leading

Quote from: seekfirst on December 29, 2012, 10:21:53 PM

Quote from: jabcat on December 29, 2012, 10:09:11 PM
 

Quote from: lomarah on December 29, 2012, 09:46:16 PM
Seekfirst, I love to carry on with jab, he takes it like a real man. :P

:cheerleader:          :wink1:

Okay girls, I don't have any more time to play today.  I just read about 100 of the replies on this thread and found a scripture that answers a BIG quandary I have had about just who or what is Satan...  I found it in reply #3... by WhiteWings -- the scripture is from 1 John 3:8... another of the blessings of reading Tentmaker Forum... so many scriptures and quite frequently I'm led to a thread on the very day I'm asking the Lord to show me something... well, can't play, but I can pray.... :Pray:

And the answer is?

Oh Micah... I should have said "a part" of the answer...  "a bit of light" ... 

I have such a radical POV re: Satan that I'm not quite ready to present it.  I apologize, I should not have shared that bit of information regarding my BIG quandary as I know that I won't be sharing my POV until I have greater peace about doing so.  It seems I was just so excited about finding that particular Scripture while reading Tentmaker Forum.  Sorry Micah...

I have found that there is no radical point of view on this site, so go for it. :dsunny:

 :laugh:

Double on the  :laugh: imo

 :iagree: :girlheart:

Quote from: sheila on December 30, 2012, 03:30:27 AM
:laugh:

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 30, 2012, 04:21:14 AM
Double on the  :laugh: imo

Quote from: sheila on December 30, 2012, 04:27:54 AM
:iagree: :girlheart:

It's good to see you two agreeing and laughing together!!!!

Huuuum?

What, then, shall we say? unrighteousness is with God? let it not be! .... of the same lump he makes one vessel to a more honourable, and one to a meaner use?

Satan is a vessel, created for a purpose.

Ying yang.  We need dark to know light, right to know wrong.

We need evil to know good.  Evil shows us what good is.  Fear teaches us love.
This is a world of opposites!

Without Satan we wouldn't 'know'. 

Yes, marcmarc, if we are to become mature Christians, and graduate from Gospel milk to Strong Meat, we must face the problem of evil square on.

Evil comes (ultimately) from God, and evil is part of His Plan.  God planted BOTH the Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden.  He did not plant one and Satan the other.

God made Satan, and he is part of God's Plan too.  Who signs Satan's paychecks?

Is Satan saved?  No, not like we are.  We will judge angels, including Satan, so his fate hangs in the balance.  He will bow the knee.  He will confess Jesus as Lord.  He will go into the Lake of Fire anyway.  After that...?

Every thing that was spoken into existence .
Will be (returned to it's proper place) saved.

Quote from: dajomaco on February 14, 2013, 06:18:01 PM
Every thing that was spoken into existence .
Will be (returned to it's proper place) saved.

Satan too?

Yes satan will be in his proper place

IMO, Satan did what he was created to do and will yet receive mercy from his creator. It won't be the shed blood of Jesus(for that is for humans) but our loving God will bring ALL to him. In his own time, In his own way. :Peace2:

That's some pretty big mercy!

...and a pretty big God. Capable of infinite mercy and Love. :dsunny:

yes...satan will be in his proper place alright....head crushed under Jesus heel.......

    great place for him to be. :banana: :banana:

Yes crushed. In the crushing he will become whatever he will be when he finally bows his knee and confesses with his tongue that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father :o)

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
(Jud 1:9)

...that's right...and the LORD DID REBUKE SATAN

Yes, the Lord did, and He still does, sometimes through us(if we be in the spirit and not in presumption like the 7 sons of Sceva :o)

Satan will be destroyed. I used to believe he and the demons would be saved as well, I thought they must be like human beings. But they aren't, they are pure evil and are the things that hurt us, they are sin. I had wondered about it for awhile and then was led to some reading that described demons as "android robots". Well I can't tell you how freeing that was. This likely sounds ridiculous to many people, but think of the android robots that mere humans can make... even "Siri" on the iphone is slightly believable LOL. Imagine what complex androids God could make. And if any of you have ever met one... you know there is nothing good in them.

No, the Lord will have His vengeance on all those things that hurt the apples of His eye (us!).  :cloud9:

This of course rests upon the assurance that Satan is nothing but an "element" of the fallen nature, yet in Ephesians it is written that God is using the church to teach His wisdom to the "principalities and powers". Of these same "principalities and powers" Paul speaks, of their ignorance of the wisdom of God and His purpose in the cross of Christ, "if they had known they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory". Of these same pricipalities and powers it was (imo) prophesied,

Many bulls have surrounded me; Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me. They open wide their mouth at me, As a ravening and a roaring lion. I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It is melted within me. My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And my tongue cleaves to my jaws; And You lay me in the dust of death. For dogs have surrounded me; A band of evildoers has encompassed me; They pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones. They look, they stare at me; They divide my garments among them, And for my clothing they cast lots. But You, O LORD, be not far off; O You my help, hasten to my assistance.
(Psa 22:12-19)

Psalm 22 is universally held to be a prophecy of the suffering Messiah.

These principalities and powers of whom Paul speaks and against whom we wrestle, are defined by Paul as "the rulers of the hosts of wickedness in high

Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high(epouranios/heavenly) places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
(Eph 6:10-13)

I think that as it is written,

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
(1Co 15:25-29)

All the enemies(every) are subjected so that God may be all in all.....(Not so that He may destroy some)

and these same adversaries, principalities and powers will be reconciled to God by the blood of Christ's cross, being listed specifcally among the "all things" that will be reconciled in Colossians 1

Who(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
(Col 1:15-20)

The Legion of demons who spoke through the madman of the Gadarenes sounded like beings to me, and certainly they were adversaries.

IMO they have all(spiritual adversaries-demons, pricipalities and powers, rulers of hosts of wickedness, the devil, etc.) left their proper estate- which is to be IN GOD, content to serve and share. The end of all things is that all will be back in proper estate- IN GOD and GOD ALL IN ALL- even the devil.

I can't seem to get very elevated anymore in my knowledge of some of this discussion.  Why do we spend so many stubborn years thinking we have to be dogmatic and convince everybody we can of our own opinions?  I've gone through too many phases, changing my ideas on Satan and evil because of arguments, even though scriptural, (rather than waiting on revelation,) to be able to be secure taking a stand one way or another on some of this.

Recently I shared a verse I had picked apart in Hebrew that says evil doesn't even pause to be with God on its way to somewhere else.  "For not a God desiring wickedness art Thou, Evil inhabiteth Thee not." (YLT)  Several translations use the word "sojourn," as here, "Evil shall not sojourn with thee." (1901 ASV)  Verse 5 goes on to say, "...thou hatest all evildoers." (RSV)  I'm sure God doesn't hate Himself.  Those things of wickedness and evil, sin and the result of it, are not permanent because they do not arise from the nature of God.

I used to think infinite good, like heaven, dissolved off into that side of God, and infinite evil, like hell, also dissolved off into its own opposite side of God.  They were like bookends to everything else.  It was a Taoist religious idea, yin and yang, though I didn't quite realize how fully I held it.  Part of my change in this matter came about by repeatedly encountering the other tree in the midst of the garden.  The duality inherent in the knowledge of good and evil seemed supportive of good and evil in God, not just good, but both; however, there was this other tree:  a kind of oneness, something unitive, just "Life."  I could see an electromagnetic polarity (including light) on one hand and the singular force of gravity on the other.  See, there is something between them though, strong and weak nuclear forces.  It is a fountain of water that is between the two trees, like the two cherubim, the cherub and cheruba on either side of the Shekinah (fem.) that rests on the Mercy Throne between them.

It keeps knocking on the door, this idea growing in my mind that God is only good.  For Him, no evil even stops by for a visit.  This is why there can be no permanent reasonless torment.  God attested to what Jesus taught by working miracles.  What certainty of good must be expressed that the approving power of God can heal as that anointing upon Jesus did!  We are being brought to a place Rufus Mosley's title called Perfect Everything.

Reminds me of John scripture that says, "God is light and in Him is NO darkness at all. NONE."

'course, this is why he is invisible. Light is invisible and can only be seen when it is reflected on/off of matter
of some kind

  I have not said anything in a long long time here 
Because I dont have any answers
Been reading and trying to understand 
and I always  always revert back to scriptures  and What the Word says about things and What the Spirit is says , see the Spirit of God speaks '' the Word ''of Truth 
 
  For me,   Just a  few FACTS    here , We remember   in Job , satan walks  in the earth  going to and fro  and also   was with the sons of   God and came along with  them in Gods presence

and  how satan leaves  the Lords presence here  in Job Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

  following some  more facts/clues  in the Holy Word  by His Spirit we can understand

that  God is a consuming FIRE     so was satan in the fire of Gods presence and  cast out of heaven  ,    Being  Gods presence     and sent to the earth only in Rev 12   as it states ? 
    for me yes , its  the  truth
  and the lake of fire   being those whom are    made angels  and ministers of fire being Gods angels / messengers  ,  the body is dead because of sin , but the SPIRIT is Life because of Jesus  Christ   and being apart of the Body  of ONE     TRUE GOD   and after reading the  Lords atributes   describing Him , we know that satan and the false prophet  and beast are   tormented    day and night foever and ever   because of this FIRE of Gods presence   in the lake of fire   ,  can anyone else see this or not ? 
Its great for those in Christ whom belong to and IN   the Consuming fire of God , but bad   and LOSS for anything    not built     by God Himself , all glory and praise and HONOR IS GODS ONLY   

1Cr 3:13   Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
satan/ adversary  is burned out of everyone  and tormented     by this Work of God ,   nothing left but GOD  IN THE END

But everyone has their thoughts about it , oddly I am comforted to  believe this work of God as perfect    :flamebreath:   God is in complete and perfect control and  LOVE wins in the end  :HeartThrob:

Yes, Rosered, all our dross shall be wood, hay, and stubble, burned away by the fire of God's presence.  This is how gold is refined - in the fire - every other thing is burned away, and the gold remains.  Even the mercury which separates the gold from the dross is burned away.

I think you do well to retire to the Scriptures, but do drop in from time to time.

Welcome back Rosered!! :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

Love you Rosie!! Love seeing you posting. Miss you lots.  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

   Thanks Laz and Ded and Lo ..
I am  such a poor  , poor writer of these   things
   But have learned one thing , when you look to God in a positive Light / Knowledge of Him
 
and the fear subsides  as Love remains  , it is a  process indeed    He is perfect  and His works are  perfect in all ways

Deu 32:4 [He is] the Rock, his work [is] perfect: for all his ways [are] judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right [is] he.


Hbr 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight,

through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.    :HeartThrob:

even though satan may" appear" to be a being..we are not to judge by mere appearances.

      a mere 'tool" a weapon formed against us..shall not prevail....and you will refute

   'every tongue" that accuses you.THIS IS THE HERITAGE[birthright] and VINDICATION

[justification]..

...satan who accuses the brethern night and day before theLord.

   [he was given authority over every tribe,people,TONGUE and nation]

   the man of lawlessness will be revealed..whom the LORD WILL CONSUME WITH THE BREATH

   OF HIS COMING....the secret 'power' of lawlessness.......but,,,YE SONS OF MEN ARE NOT

CONSUMED

    and, the TOL has no 'evil" in it...and there is no 'accusor of the brethern in it" and in the Holy city

  there is no need for the sun or the moon to shine on it[good/evil/day/light contrast]

  THERE WILL BE NO NIGHT THERE.....

meteor  falls in  Russia....and I beheld satan fall like lightening  from heaven....I have

given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the

   'power' of the enemy..

   For as lightening that comes from the east..is visible even in the west,so will be the coming

  of the son of man.

IMO,
In the beginning.
The creator of the universe wanted some one to know,
how everything got started.
I n the beginning Adam and Eve knew God.
They knew what he was and who he was.
They had no knowledge of what he disliked or wasn't.

Satan came along and gave definition to what God wasn't.
God made Laws to define to Satan who his people where.
Those who broke the Laws belonged to Satan,
those who kept the laws belonged to God.

Satan so full of himself boasted before God that the law breakers
(Satan's children) far out numbered God's children.
He also boasted that his children Loved him and loved breaking the law.
More than God's children kept the Law.


So God caused a great flood and wiped out man kind.
The Satan kind of man kind.
But God felt obligated to keep, those who were not relying on the Law, alive.
Those that new God as a God of Mercy where shown mercy.
The ark of mercy carried God's children to safety.

God intented the Law to show Goodness
Satan used the Law to show Evil.
God banished Satan to earth.
Satan thought at least he had the victory of winning
earth away from God.
He was the new ruler of earth.
As long as man had a relationship with God based on the Law,
knowing the difference between good and evil.
Satan was in charge. If you related to God based on the knowledge
of good and evil you had to go through Satan to talk to God.

Satan underestimated the mercy of God.
He thought that if God wiped out mankind (satan kind)
because some of his buddies had sex with the daughters of man.

That surely God would destroy Man Kind(S.K.)
If his own special people of the Law the Jews would be the ones
to kill this very special Jesus.

Satan thought that God would not be able to hold back his wrath
for Man kind (SK). The Devine Irony it would be that the only
person on the face of the earth that qualifies as innocent ,
Would be declared a Law breaker worthy of death.
A death of crucifixion so that all would see that this world
truly was evil and that God should use Satan to destroy
man kind.

Where there is mercy there is no Satan.
Where there is Faith there is no Sin.

When I have faith in God 's mercy.
Satan is already where he should be for all of eternity.
A story of what once was and now is not.         

Dajomaco, that was amazing!