Are the Wicked in Paradise?

[Lazarus Short]

Folks, I'm confused.  I had gone along for years, like some kind of Pollyanna, thinking that by the end of the Bible account, everything was solved, justified, sanctified, glorified, and copacetic.  In my SDA years, I believed that after Death and Hell [the grave] have been cast into the LoF, after the New Jerusalem has come down, all is right with the world, the universe, man and God.  Furthermore, the problem of sin and evil had been resolved, and the Great Controversy between God and Satan had been settled in God's favor.  However, among the descriptions of thrones, rivers, fruits, pearly gates, and transparent gold, I got a shock the other day.

My wife and I have been going to the local United Methodist Church, largely because she wanted a church with a choir she could sing in.  So the other night, I was sitting in a pew by myself, and to pass the time I opened up the pew Bible and read the last few chapters of the Revelation.

I'm going to quote from The Unvarnished New Testament here, as it's one of my faves.  Here is what threw me:

[from the end of Chapter 21]  "And her gates are never shut...and they shall come bringing the honor and glory of all nations to her.  But nothing shall enter her that is polluted, nor anyone who commits abominations and lies:  only those who are written in the Book of Life of the Lamb."

Is that simply rhetorical and for emphasis to a sinful world, or are such people still around outside the City?

[more, from Chapter 22]  "Fortunate are those who wash their garments so they will have the right to the Tree of Life and go through the gates into the city.  Out with the low dogs and the practicers of magic and the promiscuous and the murderers and the idol-worshipers and everyone who approves or practices lying."

What are we to make of this?  Are the wicked still around and only barred from entry into the New Jerusalem?  Are the hinterlands still in sin?? :dontknow: :dunno2: :dontknow:

[Paul L]

author=Lazarus Short link=topic=10908.msg146329#msg146329 date=1355683403]
Folks, I'm confused.  I had gone along for years, like some kind of Pollyanna, thinking that by the end of the Bible account, everything was solved, justified, sanctified, glorified, and copacetic.  In my SDA years, I believed that after Death and Hell [the grave] have been cast into the LoF, after the New Jerusalem has come down, all is right with the world, the universe, man and God.  Furthermore, the problem of sin and evil had been resolved, and the Great Controversy between God and Satan had been settled in God's favor.  However, among the descriptions of thrones, rivers, fruits, pearly gates, and transparent gold, I got a shock the other day.

I'm going to quote from The Unvarnished New Testament here, as it's one of my faves.  Here is what threw me:

[from the end of Chapter 21]  "And her gates are never shut...and they shall come bringing the honor and glory of all nations to her.

Zech 8:22-The nations of the world in the New Jerusalem Age will seek the counsel of the Lord in Jerusalem, vs 23.

Even during the age the New Jerusalem has descended to the surface of earth, a lot of things remain to be fixed. For example even inside this city the population will age: "There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age, And the streets of the city shall be full of boys & girls playing in the streets thereof". Zech 8:4-5. Yes, even inside the city's borders the the residents continue to age & die, babies continue to be born to replace the aged after they have passed.......sobering thoughts these.

But nothing shall enter her that is polluted, nor anyone who commits abominations and lies:  only those who are written in the Book of Life of the Lamb."

The permanant residents of the city are those of the Jewish nation whose names are written in the book of life, only they counsel the nations within the Court of the Gentiles how to be at one with God, Zech 8:23.   

Is that simply rhetorical and for emphasis to a sinful world, or are such people still around outside the City?

Yep, Zech 8:23. The nations are still in the learning process even during the age of the New Jerusalem.

[more, from Chapter 22]  "Fortunate are those who wash their garments so they will have the right to the Tree of Life and go through the gates into the city.  Out with the low dogs and the practicers of magic and the promiscuous and the murderers and the idol-worshipers and everyone who approves or practices lying."

....and this is the reason the nations in the New Jerusalem Age "shall take hold out of alll the nations .....of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you:for we have heard that God is with you". Still a lot of flesh & blood people out in the world during the New Jerusalem Age who need to be converted.

What are we to make of this?  Are the wicked still around and only barred from entry into the New Jerusalem?  Are the hinterlands still in sin?? :dontknow: :dunno2: :dontknow:

......It's exactly the meaning of the context of the entire chapter of Zech 8. Also be cognizant of the fact that the building materials of the New Jerusalem are of elements that degrade with radioactivity, meaning that the New Jerusalem itself is not a permanant structure, it too will be replaced as the ages spoken of by the Apostle Paul continue to unfold.

[Lazarus Short]

OK, I read Zechariah 8 again, and it would make you think that maybe the New Jerusalem might exist during the 1000-year kingdom period.  Then, I checked Revelation again, the end of Chapter 20 and the beginning of Chapter 21 - here, the New Jerusalem comes down after the 1000 years are over, that is, if it is all chronological.  Back in Chapter 20 though, we read that after 1000 years, Satan is loosed, and his forces "surrounded the camps of the holy ones and their beloved city".

So, is this just a chronological problem?  Am I just confusing time periods - the 1000-year kingdom, when sin apparently still exists, and the eternal kingdom, when God is all-in-all (no more sin)?

[Paul L]

author=Lazarus Short link=topic=10908.msg146336#msg146336 date=1355700789]

OK, I read Zechariah 8 again, and it would make you think that maybe the New Jerusalem might exist during the 1000-year kingdom period.  Then, I checked Revelation again, the end of Chapter 20 and the beginning of Chapter 21 - here, the New Jerusalem comes down after the 1000 years are over, that is, if it is all chronological.

The book of Revelation is the complete timeline for all the prophecies of the old testament. It commences with the very first day of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy, see Rev 1:10-11..........verse 10 "on the Lord's day...." is the exact moment in time the messages are read to the seven ecclesias inside the synagogues of the seven named cities.........from this point on you can follow every event in perfect chronology right into the age of the New Jerusalem, then the Bible goes blank.

Back in Chapter 20 though, we read that after 1000 years, Satan is loosed, and his forces "surrounded the camps of the holy ones and their beloved city".

This event occurs just prior to the age of the New Jerusalem, at the end of the millennium, this event is also described in Ezek chapters 38 & 39. Satan is the Chief Prince of Meshech & Tubal.

So, is this just a chronological problem?

It only becomes a chronology problem when expositors try to equate the defeat of Gog & Magog at Hammon-gog at the end of the millennium within the same chronological context as the events leading up to Anti-Christ's defeat at Armageddon.

Am I just confusing time periods - the 1000-year kingdom, when sin apparently still exists, and the eternal kingdom, when God is all-in-all (no more sin)?

Take a few days & really, and I mean really study the book of Ezekiel. It is 95% about the purpose of the millennium, the regathering of the House of Israel back to the Land of Promise, this is the sole purpose of Christ's 1000 year reign. Peace & Goodwill among all peoples of all nations? Not a chance.....not until the New Jerusalem age begins.
[/quote]

[reFORMer]

And one of the seven messengers who have the seven bowls brimming with the last seven calamities came, and he speaks with me, saying, "Hither! I shall be showing you the bride, the wife of the Lambkin." (Revelation 21⁹, CLT)

Does anyone remember something called the bride?  We are members of Christ's body because God's Spirit makes its home in us.  His Spirit in union with our spirit constitutes us as His bride, His wife.  This Spiritual union of God with our spirit quickens to life our own spirit.  He uses our bodies as His own.  He quickens (makes to live) our mortal bodies.  For the spiritual war we are in our weapons are not carnal (of the flesh realm.)  So also, God is not married to a carnal city of rocks and metal.  It is a NEW Jerusalem.

God is our temple and conversely, we are being built into a spiritual house unto the Lord.  God builds with undressed stones, not bricks (which were used in Babel.)  We each are living stones in God's building.  The apostles are living stones of the New Jerusalem's foundation.  We are being built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets.  The Lord God Almighty and the little lamb is the temple of the city (vs. 22,) and conversely, we are also called God's temple.  His temple Adam humanity was taken to death when Christ Jesus, its anointed head, went down into death.  Whoever is baptized into Christ is baptized into His death.  The new humanity, homo novae, is this same Jesus, the resurrected and ascended Lord from heaven sent into us, dwelling in us.

In John's gospel (chpt. 14) we are called "mansions" by KJV translators.  The Greek is mon e' "abode" or REMAIN  In My Father's house are many abodes; yet if not I would have told you, for I am going to make ready a place for you.  And if I should be going and making ready a place for you, I am coming again and I will be taking you along to Myself, that where I am, you also may be. (John 14^2-3, CLT)

When we read a few words later Jesus makes clear for us today that He has received us unto Himself.  He has come to us,  to dwell in our mansions by the Spirit.  "I will not leave you bereaved; I am coming to you.  Still a little and the world is beholding Me no longer, yet you are beholding Me. Seeing that I am living, you also will be living.  In that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you..." (John 14^18-20, CLT)

Concerning this New Jerusalem seen in the spirit (vs. 10) it says, "And the nations shall be walking by means of its light..." (Revelation 14²⁴, CLT)  There is a Royal Priesthood that shall reign in all the earth. (cp., Revelation 5¹⁰)  We are of that stone which smote the image in the feet and ground it to powder, and that powder was blown away by the spirit, like the breeze blows away the chaff in the moonlight on the stones of the fall threshing floor.  We are of that stone and of the mountain the stone is yet becoming.  We are coming to fill the entire earth as this mountain, this kingdom.  Except for the spirit of the image with the head of gold, the world of those 4 Empires past after the coming forth of Christ the stone.  In the last couple of hundred years we are in the time of the 4 beasts described by Daniel and now in the time of the 4th beast, the United Nations.

Some want to rebuild the wall between Jew and Gentile that was torn down in Christ's death.  Now God has made of the twain ONE NEW MAN. *(see below)  Against this some teach there are two kinds of chosen people principally determined by racist means.  There are an "earthly" Jewish chosen, saved under the Mosaic Covenant (in spite of no blood sacrifices for 2,000 years and despite 95% of today's Jews not being racially descendants of Abraham.)  Then they say there is a racially Gentile (of the nations) "heavenly" Church saved under the New Covenant.  This doctrine (DipSINsationalism) extends to these terms concerning Christ's body and bride.  Certain terms are said to apply to what they call Jews, and others are assigned to racially Gentile Christians.

And I perceived the holy city, new Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God...(Revelation 21², CLT)  This is us, the Eclessia (the "called out,") who God, "hath raised up together, and made sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus..." (Ephesians 2⁶, KJV)  From this heaven we are descending into this earth to manifest the glory of Christ in every place.  It is as in the former covenant:  Moses had a heavenly vision in the mountain, descended to communicate it to Bezazleel, who was anointed to build in the earth according to the pattern of that heavenly vision and Aaron received it for the people.  Now the Prophet, Priest and King anointing is the inheritance granted unto all who believe into the name of the son of God, even the Lord Jesus Christ!

___________________________

* Ephesians 211-16, CLT...
11 Wherefore, remember that once you, the nations in flesh -- who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands --
12 that you were, in that era, apart from Christ, being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and guests of the promise covenants, having no expectation, and without God in the world.
13 Yet now, in Christ Jesus, you, who once are far off, are become near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He is our Peace, Who makes both one, and razes the central wall of the barrier
15 (the enmity in His flesh), nullifying the law of precepts in decrees, that He should be creating the two, in Himself, into one new humanity, making peace;
16 and should be reconciling both in one body to God through the cross, killing the enmity in it.

[eaglesway]

I believe the book of revelation is primarily "word pictures of spiritual reality". The word "apocalypse" means "unveiling". "The dogs and the sorcerers and everyone who loves and makes a lie" obviously refers to a time before all things are gathered into one in Christ(eph 1), and the last enemy is subjected and God becomes "all in all"(1Cor 15). So we have to determine for ourselves, IS GOD PRIMARILY SPEAKING TO US ABOUT A PHYSICAL CITY IN SOME TIME IN THE FUTURE OR UNVEILING US WHAT THE BRIDE IS BECOMING IN THESPIRIT.

I believe there are time prophesies in Revelation, but I think the deeper revelation is, "Let the one who has ears to hear ear what the Spirit says to the churches"

The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come, let everyone who thirsts drink freely of the water of life."

[Lazarus Short]

reFORMer, your post blows me away!  However, I believe the Body of Christ is a different entity than the Bride of Christ.  You don't marry your own body do you?  The identity of the Body is clear, but the identity of the Bride is mysterious.  Surely she will be revealed in due time.

[Paul L]

author=eaglesway link=topic=10908.msg146363#msg146363 date=1355730045]

I believe the book of revelation is primarily "word pictures of spiritual reality".

So there is absolutely nothing substantive about the book? Just touchy, feel warm all over fuzzy stuff? Any book on Voodoo or Buddhism will give me that as well.

......... but I think the deeper revelation is, "Let the one who has ears to hear ear what the Spirit says to the churches"

Who are these "churches" who are admonished to have "ears"?

[Lazarus Short]

Spiritual Reality is not substantive?  No, I think it is the here-and-now which is not substantive, and that is why so many martyrs have gone happily to their deaths for so many centuries.  Take a good look at Fox's Book of Martyrs.  Those dying people seems to have been aware of something that their tormentors missed...

[ded2daworld]

If reality consists ONLY of things, then the spiritual is not real.
If reality consists ONLY of the spiritual, then all we see and we ourselves are illusion.

Are we physical beings that have a spiritual experience?
Are we spiritual beings having a  physical experience?
Are we both?

Why was Elisha able to see thousands of soldier angels waiting to fight while his helper saw nothing?
2 Kings 6:15-17
New Life Version (NLV)
15 The servant of the man of God got up early and went out. And he saw an army with horses and war-wagons around the city. The servant said to Elisha, "It is bad, sir! What should we do?" 16 He answered, "Do not be afraid. For those who are with us are more than those who are with them." 17 Then Elisha prayed and said, "O Lord, I pray, open his eyes, that he may see." And the Lord opened the servant's eyes, and he saw. He saw that the mountain was full of horses and war-wagons of fire all around Elisha.

[sheila]

T
HE BRIDE AND THE GROOM ARE ONE FLESH/ONE SPIRIT.. .THAT IS WHY JESUS CHRIST

  THE WORD OF GOD COME IN FLESH..[THE LITTLE CHILDREN WERE PARTAKERS OF FLESH AND BLOOD]

  ...   




     

[sheila]

 IF YOUR EYE CAUSE YE TO STUMBLE PLUCK IT OUT[SPEAKING ABOUT THIS MATERIAL/TERRESTIAL

  PHYSICAL REALM]  IT IS BETTER TO ENTER THE kINGDOM OF HEAVEN WITH ONE EYE[SPIRITUAL ONLY]

   SEEK YE FIRST THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN[SPIRITUAL] THESE OTHER THINGS SHALL BE ADDED AS YOU NEED

THEM[ANY MATERIAL EARTHLY THINGS MANIFESTED AS GOD SEES FIT]

[sheila]

THERE ARE TERRESTIAL EARS AND CELESTIAL EARS...AND GOD THE CREATOR FORMS THEM BOTH

  PHYSICAL EYES AND SPIRITUAL EYES.  TWO MEN WILL BE ASLEEP IN A BED..ONE WILL BE TAKEN

  AND THE OTHER LEFT BEHIND.....TWO WOMEN AT THE HAND MILL,ONE TAKEN AND ONE LEFT BEHIND

[eaglesway]

author=eaglesway link=topic=10908.msg146363#msg146363 date=1355730045]

I believe the book of revelation is primarily "word pictures of spiritual reality".

So there is absolutely nothing substantive about the book? Just touchy, feel warm all over fuzzy stuff? Any book on Voodoo or Buddhism will give me that as well.

......... but I think the deeper revelation is, "Let the one who has ears to hear ear what the Spirit says to the churches"

Who are these "churches" who are admonished to have "ears"?

If you have ears to hear, Hear- whoever has ears! But many have "inner ear" infections :o)

Be careful how you hear for to the one who has(hearing ears) more shall be given, to the one who has not(hearing ears) even that which he has(from that which he received when he had hearing ears, before he was deafened by arrogance and stubbornness) will be taken away.

In the revelation of John it is the churches(meaning all of the assemblies of the ecclesia of God and all the members of the "great assembly, i.e.universal body of Christ) unto whom Jesus is speaking, "Hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches"

But also, through the revelation of John, the Spirit and the Bride(universal church) are speaking to anyone who is thirsty, "COME!!!, DRINK FREELY of the WATER OF LIFE"

[Paul L]

author=eaglesway link=topic=10908.msg146416#msg146416 date=1355792505]

I believe the book of revelation is primarily "word pictures of spiritual reality".

So there is absolutely nothing substantive about the book? Just touchy, feel warm all over fuzzy stuff? Any book on Voodoo or Buddhism will give me that as well.

......... but I think the deeper revelation is, "Let the one who has ears to hear ear what the Spirit says to the churches"

Who are these "churches" who are admonished to have "ears"?

In the revelation of John it is the churches(meaning all of the assemblies of the ecclesia of God and all the members of the "great assembly, i.e.universal body of Christ) unto whom Jesus is speaking, "Hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches"

But also, through the revelation of John, the Spirit and the Bride(universal church) are speaking to anyone who is thirsty, "COME!!!, DRINK FREELY of the WATER OF LIFE"

Where do I find any of this in from the mouth of Christ to the ears of John the Revelator?

Rev 1:4 "John to the seven churches (ecclesias) which are in Asia....."

Nothing here about "bride", universal church", "anyone who is thirsty", "water of life". Only a simple declaration by Christ to get messages to seven congregations as designated in verse 11.

The Bible is a textbook, with a perfectly designated timeline for orders of events. Reading it in the haphazard manner you suggest is why my colleagues in the scientific community laugh at the aggregate confusion Christian eschatology revels  in. It's the creation of self serving contradictions exposited by these kinds of superfluous explanations which convinces the unbeliever that Christians are just crackpots.  Not your intent is it?

Replacement Theology has long been a repository trapping well meaning Christians into untenable positions.

How do you prove to a Buddhist that the book of Revelation is not a book written to seven end-time congregations on the day as stated in Rev 1:10-11? The Buddhist will look you square in the eye and declare: "Don't you even believe the plain words of your own holy book, and you're trying to convert me?

[Lazarus Short]

Buddhists aren't into historicity anyway, so the chronology and history and prophecy of the Bible would tend to sound irrelevant to them. 

[sheila]

REV 22;17 THE SPIRIT AND THE BRIDE SAY 'COME!. AND WHOEVER HEARS LET HIM SAY 'COME'

WHOEVER IS THIRSTY LET HIM COME AND WHOEVER WISHES,LET HIM TAKE THE FREE GIFT

  OF THE WATER OF LIFE

   

[eaglesway]

author=eaglesway link=topic=10908.msg146416#msg146416 date=1355792505]

I believe the book of revelation is primarily "word pictures of spiritual reality".

So there is absolutely nothing substantive about the book? Just touchy, feel warm all over fuzzy stuff? Any book on Voodoo or Buddhism will give me that as well.

......... but I think the deeper revelation is, "Let the one who has ears to hear ear what the Spirit says to the churches"

Who are these "churches" who are admonished to have "ears"?

In the revelation of John it is the churches(meaning all of the assemblies of the ecclesia of God and all the members of the "great assembly, i.e.universal body of Christ) unto whom Jesus is speaking, "Hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches"

But also, through the revelation of John, the Spirit and the Bride(universal church) are speaking to anyone who is thirsty, "COME!!!, DRINK FREELY of the WATER OF LIFE"

Where do I find any of this in from the mouth of Christ to the ears of John the Revelator?

Rev 1:4 "John to the seven churches (ecclesias) which are in Asia....."

Nothing here about "bride", universal church", "anyone who is thirsty", "water of life". Only a simple declaration by Christ to get messages to seven congregations as designated in verse 11.

The Bible is a textbook, with a perfectly designated timeline for orders of events. Reading it in the haphazard manner you suggest is why my colleagues in the scientific community laugh at the aggregate confusion Christian eschatology revels  in. It's the creation of self serving contradictions exposited by these kinds of superfluous explanations which convinces the unbeliever that Christians are just crackpots.  Not your intent is it?

Replacement Theology has long been a repository trapping well meaning Christians into untenable positions.

How do you prove to a Buddhist that the book of Revelation is not a book written to seven end-time congregations on the day as stated in Rev 1:10-11? The Buddhist will look you square in the eye and declare: "Don't you even believe the plain words of your own holy book, and you're trying to convert me?

Well, superfluity is in the eye of the beholder. The revelation of John is much more than historic prophesy- altho I agree it does contain historic prophesy in it. When you compare the word pictures of the OT prophets with the revelation Jesus Christ gave to John, I can hardly imagine how you could fail to find substance in it. The whole thing is filled with fulfilled prophetic images from previous writings (OT & NT) including spiritual keys to unlock hidden spiritual realities for the church in all the ages whether read in 112 AD 1012 AD or 2012 AD- otherwise it was quite useless until now :o)

And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
(Rev 22:10)


And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.
(Mat 26:18)

The time was at hand then when it was spoken, not just now that we fancy ourselves to be at the end of the age. It has been vibrantly illuminating the truths of the "ecclesia of God" and their mission(UR) and their relationship with the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" since it was first delivered to the churches.

I also don't necessarily care if the spiritual messages of the revelation turn off a few "scientists". They might just as likely be reached by the beauty of the spirit revealed in those pictures, as by some regimented chronological interpretation anyway.

The revelation of John is most definitely NOT chronological in my opinion. It is more like a wagon wheel, with the hub being the second advent(Rev 6, Rev 11, Rev 19)  and a series of spokes being a number of simultaneously occurring sequences of events leading up to that blessed consummation of the ages.

[reFORMer]

I believe the Body of Christ is a different entity than the Bride of Christ.  You don't marry your own body do you?  The identity of the Body is clear, but the identity of the Bride is mysterious.  Surely she will be revealed in due time.

The little lamb is an animal explaining the flesh aspect of Jesus.  "...the wedding dinner of the Lambkin..." (Rv 19⁹, CLT) is the celebration of our experiencing God transforming the vile body of our humiliation "to conform it to the body of His glory" in the beginning of the time of the fulfillment of the feast of Tabernacles.  Perhaps this is a reference to the entire Millennial age.  This change is, "...in accord with the operation which enables Him even to subject all to Himself." (Php 3²¹, CLT)  He is not only able, but willing and able and sure "to subject all to Himself."  It must occur even as He has declared.

"Spirit," ruah in Hebrew and pneuma in Greek, is feminine in both cases.  The bride is the human spirits in union with the Spirit of God.  In our relationship of spiritual union with God He is the Husband and we are the wife.

Because of this spiritual intercourse occurring in the tabernacles of our flesh, these "tents" God regards as members of His physical body.  From this union there is conceived in their shared body what is yet to be born:  the "manchild," the body caught up, transfigured and glorified.

In the parable where the man at the wedding feast without a wedding garment gets thrown out of the party because of that lack, possibly of an immortal body, those who teach eternal torment claim his condition in judgement was permanent.  "Then the king said to the servants, 'Binding his feet and hands, cast him out into outer darkness.' There shall be lamentation and gnashing of teeth.  For many are the called, yet few are the chosen."  (Mt 2213-14, CLT)  I was told gnashing of the teeth in outer darkness was to happen endlessly without ceasing and this was for most people.  I offer that, after the festivities, the master will go out and see if His friend was improving, if the discipline was having an effect.  Maybe He loosens the feet so travel out of the darkness can be possible.  Too bad the Marriage Reception was missed; but, the marriage itself will go on for ever.

[eaglesway]

I believe the Bride, the Body, the Temple are all perspectives of one thing- the body of members, the temple of living stones, the bride- for the purpose of bearing the manchild- see Ephesians 4.  Until we all attain to the unity of the faith, unto a mature man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.

the man-child gestates within the womb of the Bride.

That womb(Bride) is equal to the Holy of Holies(Temple) where the spirit descends between the cherubim and the rod buds and the hidden manna awaits. The members(Body) are the preisthood(Romans 12:1-3) performing service as led by the Head who is over all things.

In Ephesians 1 Jesus is described as Head over all things to the church, His Body, the fulness of Him who fills all in all.

In Hebrews 12 .....But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
(Heb 12:22-24)

If the church is the Body and the church is the Bride, the New Jerusalem.......

And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
(Rev 21:9-10)

[sheila]

i SEE THE BODY OF CHRIST AS THE 'WORD OF GOD' COME IN FLESH..BREAD FROM HEAVEN..

AND I SEE THE BRIDE AS THE SPIRIT IN UNION WITH THE 2WORD..PRODUCING RIGHTEOUS

  OFFSPRING=CHILDREN OF WISDOM/UNDERSTANDING..BORN FROM ABOVE....


  BRIDE[THE HIDDEN ONE] AS HIDDEN MANNA=I HAVE MANY THINGS YET TO SAY TO YOU

THAT YOU CAN NOT BEAR AT PRESENT[MANCHILD]


    JESUS AS THE WORD OF GOD COME IN FLESH..CONCEIVED OF A VIRGIN/HOLY SPIRIT...........

  PRESENTED AS THE WORD OF GOD THAT TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD/MISSING THE

  MARK/HIGHNESS OF THE CALLING OF GOD[THOUGHTS OF GOD]  DESCENDS INTO THE JORDAN

   [DEATH VANITY[MY WORD WILL NOT RETURN VOID]...   THE HOLY SPIRIT THEN DESCENDING

  LIKE A DOVE AND REMAINING ON HIM[FAITH HOPE AND LOVE REMAINS=RESURRECTION/REMNANT


  AS CHRIST IS UNVEILED/REVELATION..SO,TOO THE HIDDEN ONE[BRIDE IN CHRIST REVEALED]

   FALSE PROPHETS[INTERPRETATIONS] DESTROYED..BEASTS[CARNAL UNDERSTANDING] SLAUGHTERED


PROVERBS 9 WISDOMS BANQUET[WEDDING SUPPER] WISDOM FROM ABOVE...SONGOF SONGS

   THE GRANTING OF HER TO BE FREE FROM SPOT OR BLEMISHES/WRINKLES=PREPARED HERSELF

SANCTIFICATION OF TRUTH[EZEKIEL 16;6- SEE THE THINGS FATHER DID FOR HIS WIFE]


  MATURITY OF THE BRIDE WITH GROWTH TO RECEIVE LOVE'S EXPRESSION'S AND BEAR RIGHTEOUS

OFFSPRING.  AS A HUSBAND WILL LAY HIS LIFE DOWN FOR HIS WIFE..A WOMAN WILL FOR HER CHILDREN

THERE IS NO LOVE STRONGER [INTENSE] ONLY INTENSITY OF LOVE IS STRONGER THAN DEATH


      PLACE ME LIKE A SEAL OVER YOUR HEART[SEALED FOUNTAIN]LIKE A SEAL ON YOUR ARM

   FOR LOVE IS AS STRONG AS DEATH,IT'S JEALOUSY UNYIELDING LIKE THE GRAVE

  IT BURNS LIKE BLAZING FIRE[WERE OUR HEARTS NOT BURNING WHEN HE OPENED UP

THE SCRIPTURES] LIKE A MIGHTY FLAME. MANY WATERS CAN NOT QUENCH LOVE,RIVERS

CAN NOT WASH IT AWAY[THEN FROM HIS MOUTH THE DRAGON SPEWED WATER LIKE A RIVER

TO TRY AND SWEEP HER AWAY]... 1 PETER 1;22....LOVE ONE ANOTHER INTENSELY

[micah7:9]

In answer to the post, "Are the wicked in paradise?" No.
Heb 9:27  and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
Heb 9:28  so also the Christ, once having been offered to bear the sins of many, a second time, apart from a sin-offering, shall appear, to those waiting for him--to salvation!


Ecc 3:19  For an event is to the sons of man, and an event is to the beasts, even one event is to them; as the death of this, so is the death of that; and one spirit is to all, and the advantage of man above the beast is nothing, for the whole is vanity.
Ecc 3:20  The whole are going unto one place, the whole have been from the dust, and the whole are turning back unto the dust.
Ecc 3:21  Who knoweth the spirit of the sons of man that is going up on high, and the spirit of the beast that is going down below to the earth?
Ecc 9:5  For the living know that they die, and the dead know not anything, and there is no more to them a reward, for their remembrance hath been forgotten.
Ecc 9:6  Their love also, their hatred also, their envy also, hath already perished, and they have no more a portion to the age in all that hath been done under the sun.

[reFORMer]

The Bible is a textbook, with a perfectly designated timeline for orders of events. Reading it in the haphazard manner you suggest is why my colleagues in the scientific community laugh at the aggregate confusion Christian eschatology revels  in. It's the creation of self serving contradictions exposited by these kinds of superfluous explanations which convinces the unbeliever that Christians are just crackpots.  Not your intent is it?

Most people won't read scripture, haphazard or otherwise.  I think it is in Lamentations that, "The man of spirit is considered mad."  This will not change until the rest are brought on in to that grace wherein we stand.  In a recent dream I saw two scenes.  One was I was getting and changing clothes, even in the middle of the day, to fit "in," much like everyone else.  So I know this isn't about literal clothes.  The next scene there were some at the first going my way who motioned in turn for the others going the opposite direction to come along with us.  The people, who were going in the opposite direction I was going, dressed in the ordinary clothes I'd seen in the first scene, were motioning for me to go along with them and some became angry and hateful that I didn't.  I seemed to them rather similar to the character of Larry Finkelstein in the sitcom "Dharma," the name of Larry's daughter, only I was "spiritual," a Jesus freak.  I was praying, which the world sees as only talking to myself.  I was dressed in tunic and pants of natural white linen, with my arms outstretched, palms up, beckoning God that He and I might walk together.
___________________________

Certainly on such elevated persons as comprise the Scientific Community dipSINsationalism will have an effect opposite of generating faith in Jesus and His words.  Jesus throughout His ministry proclaimed a near at hand kingdom of God and Himself as God's anointed over it.  This was taught in His Olivet discourse.  DipSINsationalists say this kingdom was only an offer and it was withdrawn according to their Postponement Theory.  Bultmann, who went on to become a very unbelieving professional theologian, was so affected by dipSINsational ways of thinking he believed Jesus was wrong because the earthly kingdom did not materialize.  He spoke of Jesus being deceived by His own noumena.  Of course this problem disappears when it is understood the kingdom came in the Holy Ghost infilling us and the proof was as Jesus said of the seven signs in Matthew twenty-four, "This generation shall not pass until all these signs taken together are fulfilled."  The culmination of His prophecies was the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, approximately two years short of a generation's forty.
___________________________

As an example of order, the book of Revelation is divided in twain near the end of chapter eleven.  As one proceeds in both directions away from the middle there are corresponding ideas opposite one another, just as an arm on one side of the body is echoed with an arm in a corresponding place on the opposite side of the body.  The Word is Christ and the scripture reveals the Adamic man homo sapiens, "soilish" and "a living soul," changed into the new man homo novae, even "the Lord from heaven."  Scripture even in it's architecture reflects God's man.  I think this arrangement is why A. E. Knoch called the outlines he made "skeletons," tho' he may have gotten that term from someone else.  Much the same are the truly wonderful (and only to be compared with Knoch's) outlines in the margins of The Companion Bible (KJV) by Bullinger.  These two were friends until Knoch got onto the the fact of, "The living God, Who is the savior of all mankind, specially those that believe."

Replacement Theology has long been a repository trapping well meaning Christians into untenable positions.

I tend to consider the people united with and representing Institutional Christianity as that Mystery Babylon to which John refers.  I certainly am under no obligation to believe or behave in line with what they promote as orthodoxy or orthopraxy.  Yet we should recognize that recently it has been popular to call "Replacement Theology" what history reveals was the theological position in so many churches for thousands of years.  This phrase "Replacement Theology" is meant to mean we are anti-Semitic if we don't go along with the error of dipSINsationalism, which is a lying slander.

What does it sound like to you when Jesus says, "The kingdom shall be taken from you and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." (Mt 31⁴³, KJV)  "They are being replaced" naturally comes to mind.  The truth for most of us it is not a replacement, but a doctrine of God unfolding an advanced meaning that was in His original thought.  It is the next step up from what went before, a continuum where the ancient root sustains our more recent grafting in.  It is the mockers lie to call it replacement.  It has always been, "Not all are Israel that are of Israel." (Rm 9)  There is no going back to the typical Israel and its cultus, but we are going on into a farther fulfillment of it.  The substance casting the shadows throughout the Hebrew Scriptures arrived in the person of Jesus, the Messiah, and His many-membered body, the Ecclesia.  While this superseded the religion of the ancient saints upon which it was built, nothing can supersede the revelation of the sons of God.

"The dead and broken off branches," dipSINsationalists say are not dead nor broken off.  The truth is the "wicked husbandmen" were cast out of God's Vineyard which was given instead to "New Covenant husbandmen."  DipSINsationalists claim the wicked husbandmen will rule the earth while the ones giving the fruits will be relegated to "heaven."

"And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name..." (Isa 65¹⁵, KJV)  Rather than "Jews" we are now called, "Christians."  But, lest it be misunderstood, the replacement is not Christianity replacing Judaism.  People can be either and still be in the old man.  It is Adam that is being replaced with Christ.   The religion through Moses was for Adamic men.  What is brought through Messiah Jesus is not another religion, but a New Creation.  There are things that are naturally for this New Man, things which Adamic men cannot participate in due to being of another species.  This is not a religious change, it is a species change.

How do you prove to a Buddhist that the book of Revelation is not a book written to seven end-time congregations on the day as stated in Rev 1:10-11? The Buddhist will look you square in the eye and declare: "Don't you even believe the plain words of your own holy book, and you're trying to convert me?

Nothing at all about seven END-TIME congregations in the book of the Lord.  I know at least some of those seven are gone many centuries ago.  Those seven of John's personal concern in that day, through his writings to them, they have been symbolically representative of the Ecclesia for a couple of Millennia.

[sheila]

the reference to the skeletons and clothing in clean white linen made me think of the valley of the vision

  in Ezekiel?  the causing of the new sinew,muscles and bones clothing the scattered bones

of which the birds had consumed the flesh[where the dead body is there the eagles/vultures shall

gather.  a change a new creature

......

[ded2daworld]

Could it be that Since Jesus is the sacrificial lamb he doesn't really look like what we think of as a lamb? After all in the revelation, "the lamb" sitting on the thrown takes and opens the scrolls. A literal lamb would find this impossible.
This may be one of the points that the literalists take a little too far.