aprrently the rapture will know be on july 24...

[lomarah]

People will perish by major disasters, famines, etc.

WW Christ reigns in His people, in us. Not sure about physicaly reigning over others but I see what you're saying.

[Molly]

Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth.  Mat 5:5


"inherit"

G2816
κληρονομέω
klēronomeō
klay-ron-om-eh'-o
From G2818; to be an heir to (literally or figuratively): - be heir, (obtain by) inherit (-ance).

G2818
κληρονόμος
klēronomos
klay-ron-om'-os
From G2819 and the base of G3551 (in its original sense of partitioning, that is, [reflexively] getting by apportionment); a sharer by lot, that is, an inheritor (literally or figuratively); by implication a possessor: - heir.

[WhiteWings]

Fire = purifying. Not fun, but good! :)

Seriously, I think that the wicked will be removed from the earth at the end of the age, removed as in dead.  I think they will have to wait until the second resurrection for more.

Some/many will surely die. But all?
Jesus and His saints will rule the millenium Kingdom.
What will they rule if the only thing left are saints?
What is Jesus submitting if there are no wicked people on earth. The saints obviously submitted long ago.

There are very, very wicked people on this earth right now.

I agree with that Molly. Not just now but also in the past and future.

They work for Satan. They will be gone.

But, I think there will be different groups of people who will be on a continuum.

It's all about the lottery.

We are not told much about the ages after this one.

Just looking at Revelation a lot will die. (if we view the earthquakes etc as literal events) My guess it will be many more than the employees of satan. Unless there are many millions, even billions, of them.

The Bible is really about this age, and the ones leading up to it and contributing to it.

But, there's a lot of silence in both directions.

Depends.. Card wrote there is a certain pattern in Genesis that keeps repeating over and over. I haven't spotted it (yet); but from my posts you (should) know I'm a strong supporter of patterns. So if we can align a few ancient patterns, of say Moses' time, with our time we suddenly have lots of information.

And that's what I'm trying to promote concerning the (absence) of the rapture.
Find a pattern. Then find verses fitting in that pattern. And then zoom in with stacks of lexicons.
Or whatever order you like. But the pattern should always be leading.

:2cents:

[Molly]

Just looking at Revelation a lot will die. (if we view the earthquakes etc as literal events) My guess it will be many more than the employees of satan. Unless there are many millions, even billions, of them

A lot are dying now and will die in the great tribulation.   But this is before the first resurrection.
The wicked won't be resurrected in the first resurrection, in fact, only the dead in Christ will be resurrected, but others who don't believe in Christ now [don't know him yet] but are still righteous people could survive the tribulation I think.   There's a passage where he says he will honor the righteous of all nations.

I'm a strong supporter of patterns.

I think the story of Noah is such a good pattern that Jesus himself used it.

[Molly]

There are people, including those who call themselves Christians,  who are cast into the outer darkness when Jesus returns.  I think that means being somewhere other than where Christ is.  Those people survive the tribulation but are removed from the presence of Christ and ruled over by the saints.

I think we are all, more or less,  in the outer darkness, now, in this age.

But, we Christians have the light of a Comforter.

[WhiteWings]

There are people, including those who call themselves Christians,  who are cast into the outer darkness when Jesus returns.  I think that means being somewhere other than where Christ is.  Those people survive the tribulation but are removed from the presence of Christ and ruled over by the saints.

I think we are all, more or less,  in the outer darkness, now, in this age.

But, we Christians have the light of a Comforter.

The wedding parable: Bride, groom, guests. All in the same room. Outside a bunch of uninvited guests. They aren't in the room but are on the same planet. Only removed a few inches. The thickness of the door.

New Jerusalem is very much the same. Invited people inside. Others outside. Same planet.

Ark of Noach. People inside. People outside. All on the same planet.

[WhiteWings]

Just looking at Revelation a lot will die. (if we view the earthquakes etc as literal events) My guess it will be many more than the employees of satan. Unless there are many millions, even billions, of them

A lot are dying now and will die in the great tribulation.

True.

But this is before the first resurrection. The wicked won't be resurrected in the first resurrection,

True.

in fact, only the dead in Christ will be resurrected,

True.

but others who don't believe in Christ now [don't know him yet] but are still righteous people could survive the tribulation I think.

True. But imo also some ungodly survive. Or at least I can't find a verse that claims all ungodly wil be killed.

There's a passage where he says he will honor the righteous of all nations.

When? After New Jerusalemd decended?

I'm a strong supporter of patterns.

I think the story of Noah is such a good pattern that Jesus himself used it.

True. But it won''t do any good in this discussion because you see it as rapture proof and I see it a sthe opposite.

[redhotmagma]

All of the types in the ot are shadows of the spiritual and I think all have an aspect thats negative to christ. Moses was a great bible hero. Many people try to model themselves as moses het moses murdered a man and couldnt enter the promised land. Thats the opposite or negative factor. Dichotomy if you will. The flood killed bad people. It was water. God said He would never again destroy the earth with a flood. So to get around that He uses a technicality and uses a fire flood instead?  NO. The fire shows its the opposit/negative principle. The fire is to kill the man in men to purify to give life not take it away. Yes there are wicked people on the earth. They will all die as I/we die daily. His ministers are flames of fire. Literally killing people is the opposite of what Jesus did. We see that in the ot and in the law and that carries over into types in the nt but I believe that is seeing the gospel with the veiled min, to say He will come to literally kill. Jesus is the ultimate non aggressor. People need love to burn them.

Also I agree with most of what Jones said in those snips except the part about being separate. Eve came out of adam as I believe we the creation came out of jesus' side. Likewise Jesus came out of the father. We return to him as the two become one. He is already one with Father. I dont know what constitutes separate or distinct at that point. I dont think we can fathom that kind of unity. Its something foreign to our limited human individuality. Even if we still have separate personalities I cant even conceive of it as distinctness.

[Molly]

Don't forget--this is the end of the age.

We have had 2000 years of loving very bad people.

It mostly hasn't worked.  We are meant to see this, obviously, because this is what we have seen.

They are reprobate and perverse and they just keep getting worse.

When he returns, he will remove them, lock up Satan,  and the meek will inherit the earth.

:2c:

I'm thinking the Great Tribulation is for those who haven't seen real evil yet.

[lomarah]

Do you really think the saints will be killing their enemies Molly? (I'm sincerely asking.)

[Molly]

Joel 2 describes a supernatural army which is the army of God coming to earth on the day of the Lord. 

Yes, I think they are literally removing the wicked through death.

There are other passages in Isaiah that describe Jesus coming out of Edom [the enemies of Israel] with his robes covered in blood.   This is the Messiah the Jews were expecting to see the first time.  There's a reason why they expected a warrior Messiah.  He is described in the Bible.


Who is this coming from Edom, from Bozrah, with his garments stained crimson? Who is this, robed in splendor, striding forward in the greatness of his strength? "It is I, speaking in righteousness, mighty to save."   Isa 63:1

[lomarah]

Wouldn't that blood be His own?

Jesus is the same, yesterday, today and forever. And He calls His own to love His enemies, pray for those who persecute us, turn the other cheek. We will not be killing anyone Molly!

[WhiteWings]

In eternity we will be killing time :P

[Molly]

"wouldn't that blood be his own?"

No.  It's the Lion of Judah coming to deal personally with the enemies of his people.



Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.

2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?

3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

--Isa 63

[lomarah]

Apparently I need to brush up on my prophets lol.

But I know that we won't be killing our enemies. (Physically speaking.) They will perish, but not by our hands.

[WhiteWings]

Gog and Magog siege New Jerusalem. It's protected by a  wall of fire. And later the armies are wiped out (almost) instantly by Jesus.

Hollywood or Bible? Think the latter but I'm to sleepy to know for sure.

Nite peepZzz

[reFORMer]

Also I agree with most of what Jones said in those snips except the part about being separate. Eve came out of adam as I believe we the creation came out of jesus' side. Likewise Jesus came out of the father. We return to him as the two become one. He is already one with Father. I dont know what constitutes separate or distinct at that point. I dont think we can fathom that kind of unity. Its something foreign to our limited human individuality. Even if we still have separate personalities I cant even conceive of it as distinctness.

Our God is both a Rock and a Cloud in Scripture.  He is our Father.  As rocks we retain form through changing environments.  I am not my circumstance though I'm in it.  As clouds we change to fill our environment, making the fragrance of Messiah evident in every place.  It seems these opposite characteristics are in the qualities of the Divine nature referred to with the descriptive titles Elohim and Yahweh.

Men of God are examples of identities held in common with other men while simultaneously different from other men. The closer we get to God the more unique we are; yet, we are at the same time increasingly identified with by other men.  Moses or Samuel, Paul or Jesus have qualities very distinct from all others, yet we are perceive something of ourselves in each.

These considerations were an answer to me some yeas ago when I asked God if we would lose our separate personalities as we came more into union with Him.  I must confess to experiences that somewhat overcame me, specially of our union with Him.  Still, I can interpret certain other conditions I endured as more of my sanctification, or distinctness from everything else that is, including God.

Whether an approving judgement, perhaps an immortal doves egg, or, whatever, a white stone with a new name is given to the Overcomer.  This, and Jesus' new name indicate advance in inwardly conscious identity and progressiveness of our identities outward display.

[reFORMer]

To add various ideas from myth or tradition, break the containers that make several Greek words distinct categories separate from one another, so as to mash all this together into one new category, putting another nonbiblical word over this to wrap it all up in...this is what is done with words like the English "Hell" or "Rapture."  These are perfect examples to which meanings in the Geek word blasphemeo is referring.  The harness is taken off specific Divine words that they may be employed together for another category altogether.  Being confined to the words God chose to make His revelation known is what the older apostle commands, "Have a pattern of sound words, which you hear of me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus." (2Tim 1¹³, CLV)

[reFORMer]

"The Rapture" by Bill Britton is available on the net.  It's not very long but seemed to have a kind of atomic power when sent out into the world.  How Bro Bill was slandered for it!  If no one finds a link and posts it I will try later.  I'm on another computer that doesn't have all my files and almost 3am is just not right when I'm trying to rise as master of insomnia.  I don't know what that will look like, but twitchiness and red bags under my eyes seem good for a start.

[WhiteWings]

This book?
http://www.dimensionsoftruth.org/bill-britton/closer-look-at-rapture/

[jabcat]

This book?
http://www.dimensionsoftruth.org/bill-britton/closer-look-at-rapture/

Interesting to see him say this; 


"At the second coming of Christ, the order is reversed. The physical body "rises" or ascends from the state of death, no matter whether it has become bones, dust, ashes, or food for the birds. Out of the state of death that physical body rises into a glorified state, like unto His "body of glory" (Philippians 3:21). Meanwhile, not leaving the presence of God, but descending with Jesus back into this visible earth realm, the conscious spirit once again is joined to the body which it left at death. Only in a much higher realm. (And "higher" does not mean somewhere up in the sky where airplanes fly and rain clouds drift about).

So Paul is comforting their hearts about the fate of their loved ones who are going on to be with the Lord. He is not saying to them "don't worry, we shall see them someday up in heaven". He is saying that they are coming back with Jesus for the great Day of the Lord and the events connected with that." - Britton


This part actually reminds me of the "catching up" in the way Jones talks about, along with "those who are alive and remain" rising to meet Him and "escorting" Him back.

[jabcat]

He also talks about catching up as the following;


referencing Paul;  "In the body or out of the body? I do not know. I simply know that in the body or out of the body (God knows which) this man was caught up into paradise and heard sacred secrets which no human lips can repeat".

In this experience, it was not important to him to know whether or not his body went into that realm or place. Fourteen years later he is still suffering the afflictions of a mortal body. But he has been into that third heaven. He knows it is there. And if he has to lay his body down in death, he knows that it eventually has to come into that realm of glory also, by the resurrection power of Christ. Caught up." - Britton

[WhiteWings]

Yep, enough ammo for an endless war :)

[Molly]

This book?
http://www.dimensionsoftruth.org/bill-britton/closer-look-at-rapture/

Interesting to see him say this; 


"At the second coming of Christ, the order is reversed. The physical body "rises" or ascends from the state of death, no matter whether it has become bones, dust, ashes, or food for the birds. Out of the state of death that physical body rises into a glorified state, like unto His "body of glory" (Philippians 3:21). Meanwhile, not leaving the presence of God, but descending with Jesus back into this visible earth realm, the conscious spirit once again is joined to the body which it left at death. Only in a much higher realm. (And "higher" does not mean somewhere up in the sky where airplanes fly and rain clouds drift about).

So Paul is comforting their hearts about the fate of their loved ones who are going on to be with the Lord. He is not saying to them "don't worry, we shall see them someday up in heaven". He is saying that they are coming back with Jesus for the great Day of the Lord and the events connected with that." - Britton


This part actually reminds me of the "catching up" in the way Jones talks about, along with "those who are alive and remain" rising to meet Him and "escorting" Him back.

That passage 1Thess 4 says nothing about escorting him back at that time.  It says we will be forever with the Lord.  So, obviously, when he comes back, we will come back with him.   But at that time, at the harpazo, we are meeting him in the air, not on the road down the street.

When we look at the case of Phillip's harpazo, he disappears from one city and appears in another.  How is this possible?  It's like science fiction.  Does he enter into a different dimension?  Does he go through a wormhole?  Do time and space expand or collapse? 

But in the harpazo of 1 Thess 4, we are not meeting him in another city.  Lo, if they tell you I am here or there [a place on earth], DON'T BELIEVE THEM.    Paul says 'air' for lack of a better word to describe where we will meet him.  It's not of this earth, maybe not of this time or space.

I believe the harpazo and the parousia [as in the days of Noah, so shall the parousia of the Son of man be] are two different events.  First, the harpazo when only his people hear his voice and see him, then, at some later time, the parousia, when he returns with his saints and every eye shall see him and mourn as one mourns for his firstborn son.

[WhiteWings]

That passage 1Thess 4 says nothing about escorting him back at that time.

It does Molly.
The meaning of the Greek word "apantesis" means escorting a guess to the place the escort cames from.

Anyway "says nothing about escorting him back" says nothing about the saints going to heaven. Does that mean we must conclude Jesus and His saints will just be hovering in the air?