Tentmaker Forum

there is this fellow whom claimed that Matthew 10 26 and John 16 13-15 can tell us when Jesus is going to return! Is he wrong here is his book http://www.themysteryunlocked.com/ebooks/the_mystery_unlocked.pdf  and please take a look on page 33 where he says the line about no one being able to predict the return of Jesus is mistranslated! he says the rapture is going to be on july 25

can anyone refute what hes saying this rapture stuff is driving me crazy......

Hey wakawakawaka. I wouldn't waste time worrying about "raptures". :)
God is Love. Focus on that. :)
Peace.

yeah i know but what about the lines he is using to support himself, he says that the day is a mysterty waiting to be unlocked......

Of course I see this different than most, but I believe Christ already returned...in the hearts of men on the day of Pentecost.

I got to page 1 (which is in the Introduction) and find the author saying, "...the second coming of the Lord has TWO PARTS."  There is nothing said in the Bible about this.  The phrase often used for their first of two second comings is, "the coming for His saints," which also does not exist in Scripture.  The most common time between the two second comings is either 7 or 3 1/2 years.  This also is of course on The List of Popular UN-Biblical Phrases Mistakenly Attributed to the Bible.

That some one uses "rapture," which is not in the Bible and is an UN-Biblical category also, shows they have neither studied into this matter very deeply nor, as a consequence, arrived at advanced knowledge, even additional revelation.  We need to confine ourselves to the vocabulary God has chosen to make His revelation known.  Words like "rapture" or, "hell' are containers of several Biblical words or phrases, often not connected in the original, with traditional and other ideas stirred in.  The Greek word harpazo is part of what is in "rapture; but, for example, when in a discussion recently, I just defined harpazo alone, citing a handful of occurrences ("it means to seize for ones own possession,") the response was that I had some kind of special and original to me definition for this word.  They were rejecting the Biblical category, judging it by a rather new and certainly unBiblical category.

If someone doesn't know the next thing to happen on God's Prophetic calendar (The Barley Harvest) why would we believe he had some kind of rare and advanced knowledge.

He doesn't know what to expect.  How then can he know when it is?

1]
Jesus fulfilled the spring feasts 2000 years ago. That imo means the next time He comes will be during fall feasts. My guess is Feast of Trumpets (Jewish new year) or Atonemnet day (10 days later). That would set the month at September.

2]
My thought is that He will return on a Sabbath or Jubilee year. Meaning no sooner than 2015 or 2016.

3]
http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/SecondComing/Chap13.htm

Quote from: reFORMer on June 25, 2012, 07:28:44 AM
I got to page 1 (which is in the Introduction) and find the author saying, "...the second coming of the Lord has TWO PARTS."  There is nothing said in the Bible about this.  The phrase often used for their first of two second comings is, "the coming for His saints," which also does not exist in Scripture.  The most common time between the two second comings is either 7 or 3 1/2 years.  This also is of course on The List of Popular UN-Biblical Phrases Mistakenly Attributed to the Bible.

That some one uses "rapture," which is not in the Bible and is an UN-Biblical category also, shows they have neither studied into this matter very deeply nor, as a consequence, arrived at advanced knowledge, even additional revelation.  We need to confine ourselves to the vocabulary God has chosen to make His revelation known.  Words like "rapture" or, "hell' are containers of several Biblical words or phrases, often not connected in the original, with traditional and other ideas stirred in.  The Greek word harpazo is part of what is in "rapture; but, for example, when in a discussion recently, I just defined harpazo alone, citing a handful of occurrences ("it means to seize for ones own possession,") the response was that I had some kind of special and original to me definition for this word.  They were rejecting the Biblical category, judging it by a rather new and certainly unBiblical category.

If someone doesn't know the next thing to happen on God's Prophetic calendar (The Barley Harvest) why would we believe he had some kind of rare and advanced knowledge.

He doesn't know what to expect.  How then can he know when it is?

what about when he says its a mystery waiting to be unlocked... and that its a paradox with no one knowth the day and the hour and matt 10 26 were he says all things will be revealed... what does it really supposed to mean

and there is also this website called fivedoves...there ike an entire ARMY of jack van impes and haorld camping on there!

Waka I'm telling you, please stop reading all of that garbage and just focus on getting to know the Lord for yourself. Pray, ask for the truth, read the Bible, and when something comes up in there that you don't understand, go to HIM to reveal it to you. Otherwise you are just filling your mind with manmade theories that will only torment you.

No one knows the day or hour refers to the fall feasts which begin on the new moon.  There is a two day period where the priests go to the top of the Temple and watch constantly until the first sliver of moon appears, then the feasts begin.

I agree with ww that Jesus will return at the fall feasts, which are the only ones not yet fulfilled in us.  We have been given forgiveness of sins [Passover] and the Holy Spirit [Pentecost].  We now await the fulfillment of the fall feasts--trumpets, atonement, and tabernacles-- the receiving of our immortal bodies.

feasts are appointments, written in God's appointment book.  He will keep his appointments.

Although if he WERE to appear on July 24th, I certainly would not say, "You're early!" :winkgrin:

I think it's kinda funny that "nobody knows the hour" is pinpointing the day quite accurately :-)

QuoteNo one knows the day or hour refers to the fall feasts which begin on the new moon.

The quote is clearly related to Jewish new year. But I wonder that's the date or Attonement day on the tenth of that same month.

It's a good question, but clearly the 'rapture' verse cites the sounding of the trumpet, which would be the seventh trumpet, which would be the sounding trumpet of 1Cor 15.   So I would keep my eyes open on feast of trumpets.

It could be that the last three feasts are fulfilling the redemption of our bodies in a progressive way.



16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up [harpazo] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

--1 Thess 4

Quote from: Molly on June 25, 2012, 07:28:18 PM
It's a good question, but clearly the 'rapture' verse cites the sounding of the trumpet, which would be the seventh trumpet, which would be the sounding trumpet of 1Cor 15.   So I would keep my eyes open on feast of trumpets.

Feat of trumpets is New year.

But read:

Lev 25:9 Then have the trumpet sounded everywhere on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the Day of Atonement sound the trumpet throughout your land

(Lev 25:9) Then thou shall send abroad the loud trumpet on the tenth day of the seventh month. In the day of atonement ye shall send abroad the trumpet throughout all your land.

(Lev 25:10) And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout the land to all the inhabitants of it. It shall be a jubilee  to you, and ye shall return every man to his possession, and ye shall return every man to his famil
(Lev 25:11) That fiftieth year shall be a jubilee to you. Ye shall not sow, neither reap that which grows of itself in it, nor gather in it of the undressed vines.


Jesus could be the new beginning. New year.
But setting all slaves free from bondage.... sounds even more Jesus like.

my vote is for new year, the birthday of the sons, the birthday of all Israelites (according to WW so... :)  the unveiling is the birthing as the veil is like the hymen of the virgin bride being torn at birth.  tabernacles is word become flesh, and tabernacling amongst us.

maybe the 8th day is the presentation of the newborn sons at(as) the temple?

Tabernacles is 15-21
22nd = 8th day
23rd = the day Jesus spoke in the the Synagoge of Capricum (sp?)


Another thing to consider:
(Lev 25:9) Then shall you cause the trumpet of the jubilee to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of atonement shall you make the trumpet sound throughout all your land.

Translated wrong in most Bibles. Trumpet should be shofar/rams horn.

(Lev 25:9) Then shall you cause the trumpet of the jubilee to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of atonement shall you make the trumpet sound throughout all your land.(Lev 25:9) Then shall you cause the trumpet of the jubilee to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of atonement shall you make the trumpet sound throughout all your land.

Trumpets and Shofars
Silver trumpets (trcAcx, cha-tzotz-rot) were originally used to signal camp movements
during the journey to the Promised Land (Num. 10:1-2). Later they were used by the
Levites during various Temple rituals, especially during the offering of animal sacrifices
(Num. 10:10). They were also sometimes used in times of warfare (Num. 10:9; 31:6; 2
Chr. 13:12-14).
These silver trumpets are to be distinguished from the ram's horn trumpet (rpAv, shofar)
that was explicitly commanded to be sounded during Yom Kippur (Lev. 25:9) and during
the Yovel (Jubilee Year). The common consensus among the sages was that the shofar,
not the silver trumpet, was likewise used to commemorate Yom Teruah. The shofar was a
reminder of the exchange of the divinely provided ram as ransom for Isaac's life (the
Akedah) and of the giving of the Torah to Israel at Sinai (Exod. 19:16).


Not entirely accurate but:
Shofar = salvation
Trumpet = war

Imo there is also a difference between singular an plural trumpet(s).

That just got me VERY excited... oh for the sound of the shofar!!!

Quote from: lomarah on June 25, 2012, 06:17:48 PM
Waka I'm telling you, please stop reading all of that garbage and just focus on getting to know the Lord for yourself. Pray, ask for the truth, read the Bible, and when something comes up in there that you don't understand, go to HIM to reveal it to you. Otherwise you are just filling your mind with manmade theories that will only torment you.

I understand its just that people like those on this website http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/june2012/leigh619.htm it just really saddens me on humanity could just believe this stuff maybe we could all try to eaml th authir and talk some sense into him...or is that just wishful thinking

Another thing to consider.
Nisan is the start of the holy year. The month of Passover. Crucifixion month.
Passover, one of the main Jewish festivals didn't start the 1st of the month but the 15th.
Can't find the verse and am not 100% sure either. "Blessed is he who waits 14 days"
Joshua started preparing crossing the Jordan on the first. Did so on the 4th. Fist passover on the 15th.

I wonder is we should/may use that pattern in Tishri.

1 Nisan = 1 Tishri
15 Nisan = 15 Tishri
Passover = Atonement day

Of course those dates aren't the same. Neither are the festivals the same. It's just my way of showing a pattern (that possibly only exists in my mind)

Atonement is about forgiving sins. I think all agree the death of Jesus (Nisan) is also very closely connected to forgiving sins.
AFAIK Jewish new year isn't ordained by God. The Jew brought it with them from exile.
Atonement day (and Jublilee) are clearly instructed in Leviticus

Altough I'm not making firm statements here; atonement day certainly is high on my list. Highest I would say (with some reservations)

:dontknow:

Quote from: Wakawakawaka on June 25, 2012, 09:53:22 PM

Quote from: lomarah on June 25, 2012, 06:17:48 PM
Waka I'm telling you, please stop reading all of that garbage and just focus on getting to know the Lord for yourself. Pray, ask for the truth, read the Bible, and when something comes up in there that you don't understand, go to HIM to reveal it to you. Otherwise you are just filling your mind with manmade theories that will only torment you.

I understand its just that people like those on this website http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/june2012/leigh619.htm it just really saddens me on humanity could just believe this stuff maybe we could all try to eaml th authir and talk some sense into him...or is that just wishful thinking

I think that's a lot of wishful thinking. Obviously people who devote a whole website and/or book on a certain topic won't be convinced by a single email.
But even if they are correct waka.... there is nothing you/we can do to stop God's plan. It's like worrying about getting old. You can't avoid it. But you can avoid having a bad life worrying about it.

oh look at this http://www.godstimeline.net/rapture_late_summer_2012.html its actually suppsoed to be on the 9 of av which is the 28th of july :icon_joker:

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 25, 2012, 10:02:31 PM

Quote from: Wakawakawaka on June 25, 2012, 09:53:22 PM

Quote from: lomarah on June 25, 2012, 06:17:48 PM
Waka I'm telling you, please stop reading all of that garbage and just focus on getting to know the Lord for yourself. Pray, ask for the truth, read the Bible, and when something comes up in there that you don't understand, go to HIM to reveal it to you. Otherwise you are just filling your mind with manmade theories that will only torment you.

I understand its just that people like those on this website http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/june2012/leigh619.htm it just really saddens me on humanity could just believe this stuff maybe we could all try to eaml th authir and talk some sense into him...or is that just wishful thinking

I think that's a lot of wishful thinking. Obviously people who devote a whole website and/or book on a certain topic won't be convinced by a single email.
But even if they are correct waka.... there is nothing you/we can do to stop God's plan. It's like worrying about getting old. You can't avoid it. But you can avoid having a bad life worrying about it.

LOL touchè!!

At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.
The earth shook, the rocks split
52 )and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.
53 )They came out of the tombs after Jesus' resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

How many resurrections from the grave are there?

(At least) two.
Another thing is : What type of resurrection?
Onto eternal life or like Lazarus who died again (I think)?

well last thing that bothers me is that this guy said he said matt 24:36 is mistranslated and it should read not yet one instead of no one knows the hour..its on page 33 of his book, and even if it does,does it still mean you could figure out when Jesus returns

Quote from: Wakawakawaka on June 25, 2012, 05:20:48 AM
there is this fellow whom claimed that Matthew 10 26 and John 16 13-15 can tell us when Jesus is going to return! Is he wrong here is his book http://www.themysteryunlocked.com/ebooks/the_mystery_unlocked.pdf  and please take a look on page 33 where he says the line about no one being able to predict the return of Jesus is mistranslated! he says the rapture is going to be on july 25

I wouldn't worry. People have been predicting Jesus's return for ages.  I hear people say Jesus is coming soon. But it never happens. Christians take the bible too seriously. It's not meant to be taken seriously. Remember when that man predicted the rapture will happen on 21st may and he got it wrong. Before when I was a serious christian, when someone told me Jesus is coming. I would get panicky and I would try to ignore it and put it to the back of my mind. It's just to scare people.

Quote from: Wakawakawaka on June 26, 2012, 06:29:41 PM
well last thing that bothers me is that this guy said he said matt 24:36 is mistranslated and it should read not yet one instead of no one knows the hour..its on page 33 of his book, and even if it does,does it still mean you could figure out when Jesus returns

(Matt 24:36) But about that day and hour no man knows, not even the agents of the heavens, except my Father only.

Waka that "wedding talk (http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/the-ancient-jewish-wedding/msg136431/#msg136431)".
When a boy (Jesus) liked a girl (bride/Church) he went to the father (God) to agree upon a price (His blood/death. Paid in full). To seal the deal the couple drank wine and dipped some bread (Last Supper) Then the betrotal/engagement period started. Usually that period lasted 1 to 2 years. In that time the boy started preparing a bridal chamber where the boy and girl would consume marriage.
The father had to approve the chamber. During that 1-2 year the boy was often teased a bit? He, when are you finally get married. The boy would answer "only my father knows".
That's what Jesus was refering too.
(John 14:2) In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

So Jesus said: "I have no clue when I'll return because My Father decides when my bridal chamber is good enough."

So there are some/many hints in the Bible to calculate dates. I did so myself. I 've spend many many hours on it.
I'll give a few very simple example to show the problems involved with calculating.
The betrothel period lasted 1-2 years. Let's say 2 years. 2 years represents 2000 year. So Jesus returns 2000 years after Last Supper. In what year was that Last Supper? I've seen dtaes from 29-37AD.
Use Daniel to calculate? Again disagreement when the prophecy was made.
Mankind is given dominium over earth for 6000 year. That easy just add 6000 years to teh date Adam was kicked out of Eden and you know when Jesus returns. Unfortunately nobody seems to know when Adam left the Garden.

So Jesus gave a hint relating to marriage. Also wrapped in that hint is a certain festival of the year. See a few posts above.
The date that guy sets seems so extremely unreal to me. The Bible is almost from cover to cover based on all sorts of feasts. Half of them pointed to Jesus 2000 years ago. The other half obviously also point to Jesus.
To my best knowledge there aren't any feasts on teh date that guy mentions. Jesus won't return before 1 Tishrei (that's usually somwhere inSeptember)

even better- take a look at this http://raptureintheairnow.com/supernatural-visits-to-heaven-amp-hell/another-confirmation-of-the-soon-rapture

can anyone take a look at ronald pasey s NDE what does he say about what he saw

In that case my guess would be 16 September or 25 September 2012.

But what if I told you I died 7 times last year. God told rapture takes place 11 September 2026 at 7:77 PM
Would you believe me? Better not because it's 100% lies.
My point is how can you/we know that guy went to heaven?
It's simply totally impossible to prove a person didn't have a vision.
Until.... the predicted date passes without anything happening.

well i dont know why but i get really upset at this rapture stuff...

Probably because of all the "rapture" ridiculousness that the 'Left Behind' series created. I'm telling you waka, it is NOT something to worry about. Just get to know the Lord who loves you. Don't waste time and energy on this stuff. There's much better things to do with your time! :)

well id just they stop with all this nonsense.....

Waka, I hope you keep posting here. If you get raptured the 24th  :mthumbsup:
But what if nothing happens on that date? What's you next move? Sit back, relax and enjoy life or search for a site that claims another date?

Quotewell id just they stop with all this nonsense.....

We both know that won't happen.
So you will have to avoid such sites. Which will be very hard because quite often when googling something you will end on such a site.

Do you think waka has googlitis too? Haha

For reals waka, he's right, just stop going on those sites. Stick around tent awhile. :)

These bodies that came up out of the ground and the tombs were broken.
The bodies were they flesh or were they the resurrected bodies (eternal)?
The bible says many were raised is there a estimate?
Were there thousands hundred of thousand.
These resurrected souls went through out the city seen by many.
Did they float around or did they walk and talk as Jesus did in his resurrected body.

thanks for yer suppot everbody but just one more thing- the rapture site ive shown u said theygot 2 different people with dreams about rapture during fireworks are there people whom got these type of dreams before.. tried to set a date and failed  :ty:  and yes i do infact have googlelitis http://raptureintheairnow.com/rita-main-discussion-forum/a-possibility-of-the-independence-day

Two people. Fireworks.  :Chinscratch:


(http://www.weed-forums.com/images/smilies/smileys-passing-joint.gif)

i think that these types of people get so excited for these events that probably will never happen so thats why they keep trying to predicit a date....  I hate it when they do this i mean its crazy isnt it  :cloud9:http://raptureintheairnow.com/rita-main-discussion-forum/no-man-knows-the-day-or-the-hour-really

I resemble that remark.

Quote from: lomarah on June 25, 2012, 06:17:48 PM
Waka I'm telling you, please stop reading all of that garbage and just focus on getting to know the Lord for yourself. Pray, ask for the truth, read the Bible, and when something comes up in there that you don't understand, go to HIM to reveal it to you. Otherwise you are just filling your mind with manmade theories that will only torment you.

I agree whole heartily with lomarah

Quote from: Wakawakawaka on June 28, 2012, 12:40:09 AM
i think that these types of people get so excited for these events that probably will never happen so thats why they keep trying to predicit a date....  I hate it when they do this i mean its crazy isnt it  :cloud9:http://raptureintheairnow.com/rita-main-discussion-forum/no-man-knows-the-day-or-the-hour-really

I don't think it's wrong to research events like rapture. It has an important role in the Bible so it's a just as good thing to research as many other topics. What I'm often missing is an openminded and honest approach. Often trying to prove church doctrine and never question translations. Use writings of (biased) scholars as proof for their claims but conveniently ignore the often equal or larger number of sholars that say otherwise.

Quote from: dajomaco on June 27, 2012, 07:15:32 PM
These bodies that came up out of the ground and the tombs were broken.
The bodies were they flesh or were they the resurrected bodies (eternal)?
The bible says many were raised is there a estimate?
Were there thousands hundred of thousand.
These resurrected souls went through out the city seen by many.
Did they float around or did they walk and talk as Jesus did in his resurrected body.

I think the first 144,000 were those of the 12 tribes that were raised when Jesus raised from the dead.  They went on with Him in the ascension.  The next 144,000 are the last days Overcomers "of every tribe and tongue and people and nation."  These are God's servants from the Church for the transition into the Millennium, the Feast of Tabernacles Age.  If any are ahead of anybody else, it's just to bring the others in.

Thank you reformer.
That makes sense to me.

I've not heard any teaching on the subject.

The bodies that came up out of the ground
and the tombs being broken open.

To me it seems to be a monumental event.

At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus' resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

I have some questions (not sure if there are answers)

Jesus' body was still on the cross when the people of Jerusalem saw the bodies of the people who came out of the grave.

Did those bodies ascend up before the ascension of Jesus?

http://raptureintheairnow.com/rita-main-discussion-forum/a-must-read-from-pastor-fm-riley-connecting-the-dots looks like the date got changed AGAIN :boogie: to sometime in the fall of this year and http://www.yahweh-is-your-father.com/index.php?cID=51

Dot No. 1.......Some 2,000 years ago the Apostle Peter in Acts 2 referred to the prophecy of Joel 2:28-31, while speaking to the Jewish people gathered in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost. Peter specifically stated in Acts 2:17, "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:....."

Please pay close attention to the context. Peter was preaching to the Jewish people and in this quote from Joel's prophecy, about the Jewish people. This is not hard to see at all if people would pay attention to what they are reading. In transliterating from Joel's prophecy, Peter very specifically predicted that "in the last days" there would be "old men" among the Israelites who would "dream dreams." Has this come to pass? Our readers can decide.....

Dot No. 2.......Some of our readers are familiar with the account of Rabbi Yitzhak Kaduri, the old Jewish Rabbi who passed from this life in 2006 at the age of 113. This was the Jewish year of 5766. Before his passing he claimed that in a dream the Messiah of Israel had come to him and revealed Himself to him. He told the other Rabbis in Jerusalem and other parts of the world that he knew the Messiah personally for he had met Him in his dream, spoken with Him, and worshiped Him.

Rabbi Kaduri then said that he had left a letter to be opened after his death. This letter would reveal the name of the Messiah and other important information which the Messiah had given to him. The letter was left in the possession of his son, and if I remember correctly there was a designated time after his death when the letter was to be opened. Anyway.....

The letter was opened at the designated time and it was such a shock to the Rabbi's son that he hesitated to reveal the contents of the letter, but finally did. In the letter the old Rabbi stated that the name of the Messiah of Israel was "Yeshua," the One whom the Christians call "Jesus." That revelation was such a shock to the Rabbis in Jerusalem and other parts of the world that it created an uproar among the Rabbis. Remember that for 2,000 years the Rabbis of the Jewish people have lied about the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ [Matthew 28:11-15], refused to believe on Him, and have done everything they knew to do to discredit Him in the eyes of their own Jewish people. Remember also that the Lord God explicitly told the Jewish people centuries ago, "As for My people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O My people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths," Isaiah 3:12.

Is it any wonder that there will be a great "mourning" in Israel and among the Jewish people when the "remnant" of Israel finally learn who their Messiah really is, a truth that these Rabbis have willfully and deliberately kept hidden from them for the past 2,000 years? Read it for yourself in Zechariah 12:10-14 and 13:6.

Our readers can surely imagine the shock that it was to these Jewish Rabbis when the most honored and respected Jewish Rabbi in the whole world up until his death, told them in his final letter that the name of the Jewish Messiah is "Yeshua," the very One whom the Jewish Rabbis have lied about and denied for centuries.

As I read these reports about the old Rabbi, I not only rejoiced that this information had been made public, but I immediately recognized why it had been revealed at this particular time in history. Think about it! The "seed" has now been sown among the Jewish Rabbis which will result in 144,000 of them turning to Christ immediately after the beginning of the Tribulation as they hear "the gospel of the Kingdom" being proclaimed by God's "two witnesses." Glory to God! Hallelujah! Praise the Lord! Thank you Lord Jesus!

However, that is not all the old Rabbi revealed in his final letter to his people. He specifically related how he had asked the Messiah in his dream, "When will You return?" He stated that the Messiah told him that He would return in the month of Av in the Jewish year 5772. He would not give the old Rabbi the exact date, but told him to "tell the people!"

Wow! Glory to God! Folks, on the Jewish calendar, this year is the Jewish year of 5772. The Jewish year of 5772 began on Rosh HaShanah, the first day of the 7th month on the Jewish calendar in 2011. But then when does the month of Av begin? The month of Av is the fifth month in the Jewish year and it begins on July 19th – 20th of this present year of 2012, less than 30 days from right now. I listed both dates because each new Jewish day begins at sundown as the religious Jews reckon time. The 20th day of July is actually the first day of Av on the Jewish calendar.

Now before any reader just tosses this aside as foolishness, remember Peter's prophecy, "your old men shall dream dreams," Acts 2:17. The oldest and most respected Jewish Rabbi in the world had this dream before he died, and then revealed these things to the Jewish people in his final letter. Is this just "coincidence," or is there a connection? I'll let our readers decide.....

Dot No. 3.......How many of our readers remember Hurricane Katrina which caused great destruction in large areas of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast region in 2005? How many remember what was going on in Israel at that time? Don't remember? Well, let me refresh the memories of our readers.

Under direct pressure from the United States of America to swap "land for peace," the Israel Defense Forces under orders from the Israeli government began evicting all Jews from the Gaza strip. Many of the evicted Jews had lived on their lands and in their homes since almost the turn of the last century. Yet they were literally forced to leave their lands and homes, some of them being bodily dragged from their homes screaming and begging for mercy, and no mercy was extended to any of them. Think about it!

What was the "date" when those eviction proceedings began in the Gaza strip? The totally unjust evictions began on the 29th day of Tammuz on the Jewish calendar. Behold! On that exact same day a little "tropical depression" began forming in the Atlantic Ocean off the east coast of America. Five days later it slammed into New Orleans, Louisiana as Hurricane Katrina, causing one of the worst hurricane disasters ever to hit America. Thousands of American people were forced to flee northward to save their lives. Hundreds died! Massive destruction occurred with many of the residents of New Orleans and other Gulf coast areas losing their homes and businesses.

Folks, Genesis 12:3 is still in the Bible! So is Nahum 1:3, which explicitly states, "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the Lord hath His way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of His feet." Now are there any readers who are still so "willing ignorant" that they have the gall to say that there was no connection between the highly unjust forced eviction of those Jewish settlers from the Gaza strip and the forced eviction of thousands of American people from New Orleans and the entire Gulf Coast region. I remind those readers who don't like what I have said here that Galatians 6:7-8 is still in the Bible, and the principle set forth in that passage applies to nations just as well as it does to individuals. If you want to get mad at someone, then direct your anger towards Washington D.C. I haven't done a thing but tell the truth, God being my witness!

But I'm not finished yet! This approaching July 19th is the 29th day of Tammuz on the Jewish calendar, the very day before the first day of Av. What this means is that on the 19th of July this next month it will be exactly seven years to the day since the eviction of those Jewish settlers began in Gaza and the little tropical storm, Katrina, begin forming in the Atlantic Ocean. Seven years to the day before the first day of Av! And the old Jewish Rabbi claimed that Yeshua Himself had personally told him that He would return during the month of Av in this very year! Think about it! Let this soak in.....

Dot No. 4.......Any serious Bible student should know that the flood in the days of Noah was a type of the coming Tribulation period. The Lord Himself verified this truth when He spoke of the

"great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no nor ever shall be," Matthew 24:21, and then in the same chapter the Lord also said, "But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be," 24:37. The Greek word translated as "coming" in verse 37 and again in verse 39 in this passage is the word, "parousia." This word is repeatedly connected with the rapture of New Covenant believers in the New Testament. It is not speaking of the Lord's return at the end of the Tribulation.

Now let's look at "the days of Noah" preceding the flood. In Genesis 7:4 the Lord God explicitly stated, "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth..... Then in 7:10 the Scripture explicitly states, "And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth." It is from these two passages that most believers claim that God gave Noah a seven day warning. Indeed the Lord did give Noah a seven day warning, however there were more than seven days involved. If people would pay attention to what they are reading, this truth is glaringly obvious. Let me set it before our readers in another form.....

Day One........The Lord gave Noah the seven day warning, 7:4.

Day Two.......The 1st day of the seven.

Day Three.....The 2nd day of the seven.

Day Four.......The 3rd day of the seven.

Day Five........The 4th day of the seven.

Day Six..........The 5th day of the seven.

Day Seven.....The 6th day of the seven.

Day Eight......The 7th day of the seven.

Day Nine.......The day Noah entered the Ark and the flood began, 7:10.

Yes, I am well aware that it is commonly taught and repeated over and over that Noah entered the Ark seven days before the flood began. There is not a word of truth to this silly claim no matter who says it or how many times it is repeated. The Lord Jesus Christ Himself explicitly stated, "But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be," Matthew 24:37-39. The Lord clearly states that the wickedness of the lost unbelieving world went right on "until the day that Noah entered into the ark." That same day the flood brought all their wicked revelry to a screeching halt. If our readers would take the time to carefully study the Hebrew words translated as "flood" and "rain" in Genesis 6 and 7 in a good Hebrew Lexicon, it is obvious that the "rain" the Lord God sent down upon the earth was not a normal rain. Rather, it was an absolute "deluge" which continued day and night for forty days. Having never even seen rain fall from the sky previously [Genesis 2:5-6], the wicked on the earth must have been absolutely terrified at the deluge of water crashing down upon the earth from out of the sky above. Their wickedness came to an abrupt end that day; "the same day" Noah entered the Ark.

This truth is verified a second time by the Lord in Luke 17:26-30, "And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise [in the same way or manner] also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed."

These passages make it quite obvious that Noah entered the Ark on the exact same day the flood began, which, as set forth above, was the ninth day after the Lord God had given him the warning. In other words, the Lord God warned Noah, then seven more days intervened, and on the ninth day Noah entered the Ark and the flood began.

Yes, I am laboring the point! I want our readers to grasp this important truth in view of what I am about to point out.

The Lord God did give Noah a seven day warning just as I have stated and illustrated above. Any good Bible student should be acquainted with the Biblical principle of a year for a day, for this principle is set forth several places in the Scriptures. See Numbers 13:25 and 14:34 for an example. Another example is found in Ezekiel 4:4-6.

Now is it just "coincidence" that from the 29th day of Tammuz on the Jewish calendar in 2005 [5765 – the Jewish year] to the 29th day of Tammuz in 2012 [5772 – the Jewish year] is seven years to the day? Has the Lord God of Heaven graciously given humanity, and His New Covenant believers in particular, a "seven year warning," just as He gave Noah a "seven day warning?" Hello! And it is just "coincidence" that this seven year period ends exactly on the last day of Tammuz, with the next day being the 1st day of the month of Av? And is it then just "coincidence" that in his letter the old Rabbi clearly stated that the Lord Messiah of Israel would return in the month of Av in the year 5772, the very year in which we are living right now? Is there not a connection? Is this all just "coincidence?"

No, I'm not through yet!

Dot No. 5.......Now those of our readers who have a Jewish calendar need to look at it carefully. But first.....

Remember that the 9th day of Av is referred to by the Jewish people as "Destruction Day" because that is the day both of their previous Temples were destroyed by the invading armies of Babylon and Rome. It is also because of the many terrible things that have happened to the Jewish people through the centuries on that exact day. I would remind our readers that it was on the 9th day of Av that the armies of Saddam Hussein of Iraq [ancient Babylon] invaded Kuwait in 1990 and began a chain of events in the Middle East which is still going on right to this present hour. From the 9th day of Av in 1990 to the 9th day of Av in 2012 is exactly 22 years to the day. "22" is the Bible number which signifies "light; to see; to discern; to understand." This meaning will be especially significant when New Covenant believers look upon the face of our precious Savior and Lord at the rapture of His people, but it will also be significant to the unbelieving Jewish people which are left on the earth following the rapture, when they finally see and understand that the prophecies of the Word of the Lord are true and they find themselves in the terrible Tribulation period.

Now look at the present political and military situation in the Middle East. The nations of the Middle East are armed to the teeth and are "sitting on a time bomb" that is ready to explode into a red hot war at any minute. In view of the present situation in the Middle East, what could possibly be a more fitting time for the nations of the Middle East to explode into war than on the 9th day of Av? Think about it!

But there is another scenario [type...??] here that is even more important to true New Covenant believers. Look carefully at your calendar! I have pointed out that the "seven year warning" ends on July 19th on the 29th day of Tammuz. The next day is the 1st day of Av. Now it doesn't take a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist to figure out that it is exactly nine days from the 1st day of Av until Jewish "Destruction Day" on the 9th day of Av.

Folks, Noah was given a seven day warning, however that warning was given nine days in advance of the beginning of the flood. The flood was a type of the Tribulation period. Noah entered the Ark of safety on the ninth day after he had been warned, the very day the flood began. Are our readers connecting the dots?

Conclusion

[1] Peter said that "in the last days" old men among the Jews would "dream dreams."

[2] The oldest and most honored Rabbi among the Jewish people did have a "dream" in which the Messiah of Israel revealed Himself to him and gave him His name and important information about His return.

[3] The old Rabbi revealed the name of the Jewish Messiah as "Yeshua;" the Lord Jesus Christ whom we Christians love and serve as our Savior and Lord.

[4] The old Rabbi also revealed the time of the Lord's return as being the month of Av in the Jewish year 5772.

[5] The Lord God gave Noah a seven day warning of the judgment of the flood on the ninth day before the flood actually began.

[6] Noah entered the Ark of safety on the very day the flood began.

[7] It will be exactly seven years to the day from the beginning of the eviction of the Jews from Gaza to the last day of Tammuz on July 19th.

[8] The 1st day of Av begins on July 20th.

[9] From July 20th through July 28th is nine days.

[10] July 28th is the 9th day of Av, "Destruction Day" as regarded by the Jews.

[11] The 9th day of Av appears to be an ideal time for the Tribulation period to begin.

[12] If the Tribulation period should begin on that day, then the rapture of God's people will also occur on that same day, all in the month of Av in the 5772nd year on the Jewish calendar exactly as the old Rabbi reported in his "dream." Think about it!

Am I now setting the "date" for the rapture to occur? Absolutely not! I am reporting facts which can easily be documented by any reader. I do believe that the Lord God has graciously brought these facts to my attention. And as the Lord God told the old Rabbi to "tell the people," even so I have now told our readers. I DO NOT KNOW whether any events of real prophetic significance will actually occur on these dates set forth or not. But it sure appears to me that what I have set before my readers in this study is connected dot by dot. If the connection is really there, then how could all of these things just be a whole series of unrelated "coincidences?" Is it "possible" that these things could be a final warning given by our gracious Savior of His very SOON coming for His New Covenant believing people? I leave it up to our readers to decide.....

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The generational clock began with the breath of YAH into the seed of Abrahamin in 1942 (not 1948), as was revealed to me by the angel of YAH in 2008.  A meeting of zionists took place in May of that year (see historical document HERE) -- a fact unknown to me until it was divinely revealed in 2010.  At this meeting in NYC the zionists declared, "It is Time to Open the Gates to Palestine!" That date (May 11, 1942) was Israel's conception -- a date of decree that began our Final Generation -- and will end with fulfillment of Revelation 19:15 on September 2, 2016, when Jesus smites the nations of the world with the sword of his mouth (ie., takes control of the governments of Man.)  The Second Coming will be complete when Jesus re-enters Jerusalem during the days of Sukkot (a 7 day feast during October of 2016.) Day 2086 of the Tribulation (09.02.16) is not the date that Jesus re-enters Jerusalem, but rather the day that gentile oppression of the Holy city will END (Rev 11:1-2.) 

We entered the Four Night Watches on the Tenth of TEVET in 2010, which fell on December 17, 2010. We will enter the GREAT TRIBULATION in the Spring of 2013, at the start of the 7th Seal of Revelation. The first six seals begin to be opened on day 600 of this period, which falls in the summer of 2012 (Rev 6:1.) The bride of Christ will be received ("paralambano," the early Rapture) near "midnight" (Matt 25:6), which falls One Quarter of the way into the Four Night Watches. The Rapture may take place over several weeks, thus it could extend into the weeks just before the seals begin to be opened. We are almost at the end of the "beginning of sorrows!" Christians have been misled by many who claimed to have "figured it out," but the truth of these things can ONLY BE REVEALED BY JESUS CHRIST.  A "day and hour you think NOT" means exactly that! He appeared to me in May of 2010 to affirm what I am telling you now, and it is up to you to accept it, or not.  To be ready for the first Rapture, put your total trust in Jesus, be filled with the Holy Ghost, and WATCH! 

Things may seem to be moving slowly at first, but the "Rapture" will take place at the appointed time!  If you satisfy Luke 21:36, you will be received by Jesus on the day and hour CHOSEN FOR YOU (Matthew 20:16.)  According to Jesus (Rev. 2:22, 3:16), many christians will enter the Great Tribulation ("Many are called, Few are Chosen," Matthew 22:14), but those willing to prepare NOW will be part of His Bride!   

In order to be received at "paralambano," keep His commandments, receive His baptism of fire (Acts 1:4-6), and pray to be accounted worthy to escape what is to come (Luke 21:36.) PRAY EVERY DAY! [Click HERE for Full Message!]

In Jesus Christ,
Peter John

Quote from: Molly on June 29, 2012, 05:25:01 AM
Dot No. 4.......Any serious Bible student should know that the flood in the days of Noah was a type of the coming Tribulation period. The Lord Himself verified this truth when He spoke of the

"great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no nor ever shall be," Matthew 24:21, and then in the same chapter the Lord also said, "But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be," 24:37. The Greek word translated as "coming" in verse 37 and again in verse 39 in this passage is the word, "parousia." This word is repeatedly connected with the rapture of New Covenant believers in the New Testament. It is not speaking of the Lord's return at the end of the Tribulation.

Not only is the word "parousia" associated with the word "rapture," so is "harpazo," as well as other concepts.  I can't say turn to such and such a chapter and verse to see what it says about "rapture" because none exist.  It is a traditional and extra-biblical category.  "Parousia," being a Greek word in the Scripture, is a category God uses to make His revelation known.  The same is true of "harpazo."  However, there is nothing that melds these two words into one category in the Scripture.  The word "parousia" means "to be (to exist,) to be present, presence."  It is not about something coming from someplace else.  At least forty times the word "parousia" is misleadingly translated as "coming" in the King James Version.

If you don't know what it is that is supposed to happen, are unaware of what we should be expecting, why would you think you'd know when it'll happen?

To put various categories, Scripture words or not, into one extra-biblical word is a working of deception.  It confuses several specific categories God set up as separate.  It erases the boundaries between particular words God used for other purposes.  It is what Paul the apostle called "blasphemy"  In the Greek this is a word that means, "To not use the proper harness, hence letting the horse (ie., word) run wild."

There is nothing about two 2nd comings in the Bible.  There is nothing there about any period of time between two 2nd comings or some period of time between a coming "for" His saints and a coming "with" His saints.  The phrase, "coming FOR His saints" also never occurs in the Scripture.   

Many interesting facts can be gathered about various things; but, when those things are not specified by actual words God chose to make His revelation known followers of the Truth do not believe them.  All the more so when those made up things replace what God has spoken.  Remember how the King was throwing a party (Feast of Tabernacles) and Vashti not only would not come to it to be seen, to be manifested, she also created her own party (the Rapture) instead.

"coming" [of the Son of man]
G3952
παρουσία
parousia
par-oo-see'-ah
From the present participle of G3918; a being near, that is, advent (often, return; specifically of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physical aspect: - coming, presence.

New International Version (©1984)
As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

New Living Translation (©2007)
"When the Son of Man returns, it will be like it was in Noah's day.

English Standard Version (©2001)
For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

International Standard Version (©2008)
because just as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be when the Son of Man comes.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
But just as the days of Noah, so will the coming of The Son of Man be.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"When the Son of Man comes again, it will be exactly like the days of Noah.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

American King James Version
But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

American Standard Version
And as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the Son of man.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And as in the days of Noe, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Darby Bible Translation
But as the days of Noe, so also shall be the coming of the Son of man.

English Revised Version
And as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the Son of man.

Webster's Bible Translation
But as the days of Noah were, so will also the coming of the Son of man be.

Weymouth New Testament
For as it was in the time of Noah, so it will be at the Coming of the Son of Man.

World English Bible
"As the days of Noah were, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

this tuff is really messed up i dont see how those people even sleep at night

hold on the rapture date has been changed AGAIN to 25 of september 2015 http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/june2012/marshall622-1.htm oh and Obama is the anti christ

That's a day I can agree with.

Poor Obama. :( Having to endure all those "anti-Christ" accusations. Good grief, he's just a human being like the rest of us. Give him a break already.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

--2 Thess 2:3

this is even better the mayan cladener teachers a rapture! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TR_ef3bfSg0&list=UUS2u5rlK_5r00FNGqKquU-g&index=0&feature=plcp

Quote from: Wakawakawaka on June 30, 2012, 02:22:27 AM
this is even better the mayan cladener teachers a rapture! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TR_ef3bfSg0&list=UUS2u5rlK_5r00FNGqKquU-g&index=0&feature=plcp

This guy is very interesting.   Thanks.

It never occurred to me before that the dark side is trying to get into heaven by their own works and magic, but  that makes a lot of sense.

what do u believe Molly are u one of teh rapture people

Quote from: Wakawakawaka on June 30, 2012, 04:05:54 AM
what do u believe Molly are u one of teh rapture people

I believe the Bible speaks of events that one could characterize as 'rapture,' yes.

what kind of rapture..personally i think the pre trib thing sounds rather silly ..Jesus returning 3 times and all

Though I was raised in the "Rapture" doctrine, what I believe now is something similar to what is called "The Manifested Sons of God" doctrine.

I'm a partial preterist; meaning, much of what dispensationalist "Rapture" people put in our future I regard as having already happened, particularly Matthew 24 being fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

I'm also somewhat of a post-Millennialist; meaning, there are additional increases of intimacy in His self-revelation to us as well as advancing unfolding of our identity as those who are born of God.  In a little more distant future we are part of what sits on the great white throne.  Nearer in time, what is to happen in crossing over into the Millennium is the revelation of the sons of God, not their disappearance.  Beginning with the humble and mature, the saints, the spiritually regenerated Christians are going to enter on into being born of God.  In the physical realm, our bodies of humiliation will be changed into a body like unto Jesus' immortal and incorruptible body of Glory.  It will not be possible for these people to be removed or to prevent them from doing the good, healing, teaching, freeing mankind.  They will reign in all the earth by the power of the Holy Ghost.  The contest against this and the rest of the servants of God could be called a Tribulation, only it's brought by the holy ones against the wicked, not with carnal weapons like swords, guns, bombs, tanks and such like.  The weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh.

Jesus said it was more expedient for us that He would go away, because then another Comforter would be sent to us in His name.  He was with us and would, as now, be in us.  Millions of people having what made Jesus what He was in each of them is more than it being in just one "Jesus."  Rather than looking for a retrograde carnal version of Jesus to walk with us in the Jerusalem below, the one that is in the Sinai Peninsula, I'm looking for what is in us to become revealed in the world and to become the determining factor for what happens here.

It could be there are two events.

One where Christ comes for his bride and they go into the marriage chamber. [rapture]

One where Christ returns with his saints to rule on earth. [second coming]

In this case, the bride would leave for a time and then return.

well alot of rapture people claims that early church fathers taught rapture lie ephraem or even the Codex Amiatinus!

I didn't know who Ephraem was.  I found the following information at www.arewelivinginthelastdays.com/com/ephraem.htm, and below are a few excerpts.  It's interesting his view from 1700 years ago;

Preface to Ephraem's comments;  "For many years post-tribulationists and amillenialists have claimed that the pre-tribulational viewpoint is a recent teaching (circa 1800's) in the almost 2000 year history of the Church. And many claim that this lack of teaching by the early forefathers of the Church indicates that it is not a valid teaching because it would have been carried down in the Church writings.

Well that has all changed now with the recent translations of the writings of Ephraem the Syrian, circa 373 A.D. Ephraem was a major theologian and Christian writer of the Byzantine Church. He lived from approximately 306 A.D. to 373 A.D. Until recently a large number of his writing had yet to be translated into English."

Epraem reportedly said;

"the end of the world is very near, and the consummation remains"

"the coming of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time. We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled, and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom.... Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is to about to come and are taken to the Lord"

"But when the time of the abomination of his desolation begins to approach, having been made legal, he takes the empire.... Therefore, when he receives the kingdom, he orders the temple of God to be rebuilt for himself, which is in Jerusalem; who, after coming into it, he shall sit as God and order that he be adored by all nations ... then all people from everywhere shall flock together to him at the city of Jerusalem" - end quote

...The abomination of desolation is the selfish spirit of satan ruling in His temple - His temple being US, His church. Thus, when we can "see" this - when we see our own man of sin ruling in His temple (ourselves), the end of "our world" is near. Aka, we will decrease, He will increase (in us) until He becomes all in all. In us, and corporately in all of the members of His body. These are the things to focus on and look forward to and press in to attain, the cleansing of us! His temple! I for one can't wait for the day when He is all in all in me!!

I'm personally not 100% absolutely locked in on one view that's taught.  I see reasonable "arguments" from both sides - and some not so reasonable ones lol.

Yes I hear you jab. :)
I certainly don't know it all, and however all of this is going to manifest in the physical is beyond me. I am just at the point of not caring in the least because of the utter excitement of what God is doing in His people... and the coming of Tabernacles! :D And the end of sin, death, and pain!!

There ya go.  I find various viewpoints interesting - some pieces are helpful, IMO, some not to be believed.

Personally, I believe certain things, and I guess I'll have to leave the final details up to Him.   :laughing7:

I believe He will return.  I Thes. 4:16

I believe there'll be some sort of catching up/catching away.  I Thes. 4:17

I believe we'll be totally transformed, made immortal.  I Cor. 15:53,54

I believe we'll be forever with Him.  I Thes. 4:17

I believe it's according to His Plan, grace, and power.  Phil. 1:6 (He who has begun a good work in you will complete it).

Exactly what all that will look like, is in His hands.  Blessings.

Reformer that is one of the best ,clearest explanations of sons of God I have heard.

Lomarrah I heartily agree with your post of who the man of perdition is.

Just a thought. Could the rapture be the catching away of the bride, and the revealing of the sons be the presentation of the sons at/AS the temple on the eigth day?  That would be a short gestation but the change comes in a moment a twinking of the eye. I remember something about the midst of the week and presenting the sons

Quote from: jabcat on June 30, 2012, 09:49:27 AM
I didn't know who Ephraem was.  I found the following information at www.arewelivinginthelastdays.com/com/ephraem.htm, and below are a few excerpts.  It's interesting his view from 1700 years ago;

Preface to Ephraem's comments;  "For many years post-tribulationists and amillenialists have claimed that the pre-tribulational viewpoint is a recent teaching (circa 1800's) in the almost 2000 year history of the Church. And many claim that this lack of teaching by the early forefathers of the Church indicates that it is not a valid teaching because it would have been carried down in the Church writings.

Well that has all changed now with the recent translations of the writings of Ephraem the Syrian, circa 373 A.D. Ephraem was a major theologian and Christian writer of the Byzantine Church. He lived from approximately 306 A.D. to 373 A.D. Until recently a large number of his writing had yet to be translated into English."

Epraem reportedly said;

"the end of the world is very near, and the consummation remains"

"the coming of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time. We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled, and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom.... Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is to about to come and are taken to the Lord"

"But when the time of the abomination of his desolation begins to approach, having been made legal, he takes the empire.... Therefore, when he receives the kingdom, he orders the temple of God to be rebuilt for himself, which is in Jerusalem; who, after coming into it, he shall sit as God and order that he be adored by all nations ... then all people from everywhere shall flock together to him at the city of Jerusalem" - end quote

This is fascinating, Jab.  So he believed the elect would be gathered together and raptured prior to the  Great tribulation [the last 3.5 years].

" Ephraem's fascinating teaching on the Antichrist has never been published in English until now. This critically important prophecy manuscript from the fourth century of the Church era reveals a literal method of interpretation and a teaching of the pre-millennial return of Christ. More importantly, Ephraem's text revealed a very clear statement about the pretribulational return of Christ to take His elect saints home to heaven to escape the coming Tribulation. In addition, Ephraem declares his belief in a personal, Jewish Antichrist, who will rule the Roman Empire during the last days, a rebuilt Temple, the two witnesses and a literal Great Tribulation lasting 1,260 days. It is also fascinating to note that he taught that the War of Gog and Magog would precede the tribulation period. I discovered another text by Ephraem, called The Book of the Cave of Treasure, that revealed he taught that Daniel's Seventieth Week will be fulfilled in the final seven years at the end of this age that will conclude with Christ's return at the Battle of Armageddon to establish His kingdom."

He also sees Christ returning with his saints at the end of the Great tribulation.

"10. And when the three and a half years have been completed, the time of the Antichrist, through which he will have seduced the world, after the resurrection of the two prophets, in the hour which the world does not know, and on the day which the enemy or son of perdition does not know, will come the sign of the Son of Man, and coming forward the Lord shall appear with great power and much majesty, with the sign of the word of salvation going before him, and also even with all the powers of the heavens with the whole chorus of the saints.... Then Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion, and the Lord shall destroy him by the Spirit of his mouth. And he shall be bound and shall be plunged into the abyss of everlasting fire alive with his father Satan; and all people, who do his wishes, shall perish with him forever; but the righteous ones shall inherit everlasting life with the Lord for ever and ever."

Seven years of tribulation with the rapture happening halfway through.  So, he sees first the rapture, then the Great Tribulation of 3.5 years under AntiChrist, then the return of Jesus with his saints at the end of the Great Tribulation to defeat the AntiChrist figure and set up Christ's kingdom on earth.

He was writing this in 373 and saying it was imminent.  What happened instead is that in 381, Theodosius made Christianity the official religion of the roman empire.

The AntiChrist is described by the prophet Daniel in Daniel 11:



36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain

Paul describes the AntiChrist.  Are there really people here who come as Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders?  You think you're the AntiChrist?





6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Thess 2

More on the AntiChrist from the prophet Daniel in Daniel 8:



23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

Quote from: lomarah on June 29, 2012, 08:59:40 PM
Poor Obama. :( Having to endure all those "anti-Christ" accusations. Good grief, he's just a human being like the rest of us. Give him a break already.

Yeah, the poor guy just can't  get his story straight.  It's not a tax, it's a mandate,  it's not a tax, it's a gift, oops it IS a tax, oops it's the biggest tax in the history of the Republic.



25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand;  Dan 8


"craft"

H4820
מרמה
mirmâh
meer-maw'
From H7411 in the sense of deceiving; fraud: - craft, deceit (-ful, -fully), false, feigned, guile, subtilly, treachery.

Who is the god of forces, also known as a strange god, honored by the AntiChrist in the book of Daniel [Dan 11]?


"strange" god

H5236
נכר
nêkâr
nay-kawr'
From H5234; foreign, or (concretely) a foreigner, or (abstractly) heathendom: - alien, strange (+ -er).

Some things are just plan funny.
The rapture site has a pleading with it's readers not to vote for
Obama but rather the readers should vote for Romney.

Further down in the site is a huge section that( we are living in the end times)
because of the advent of various cults and there anti Christ doctrines.
The most be railed Cult is Mormonism the most anti Christ and powerful
Cult the world has ever seen .Mormonism

yet the rapture site says vote for
Romney the proud leader and elder of the cult.
Do not vote for the self proclaimed Christian.

Oddly enough the Christian Research Institute.
Has thousands of tracts and videos on the evils of Mormonism.
They say it's better to vote for Romney than Obama.

Some people love the law even though it puts them to shame.
There is no shame in Love of Love no shame in Jesus All in All.

Every thing described in the above comments point to how vulnerable
we are as sheep, thank God we only need to call for our Shepard and he is there
before the Bah Bah leaves our lips.     

Quote from: Molly on June 30, 2012, 03:16:53 PM

Yeah, the poor guy

Ah yes, he's a great innocent little fella.  No harm at all intended.   :LH:

OTOH, are any of them [politicians]?   :faint:  Some are likely more powerful vessels of dishonor than others.  We've heard the saying, about choosing "the least of 2 evils"?

"My kingdom is not of this world". Jn. 18:36

Connecting to the OP, so as to not just veer this into a "political" thread;  I personally don't believe Obama is "the anti-Christ".  John said in his day there were already many anti-Christs...Basically, in many things, I believe there's much more than what usually meets the eye (on the surface of things).    :2c:

Good golly miss Molly!  :laughing7: And sir Jab!
I am not saying Obama is innocent... on the contrary, he is as guilty as the rest of us. I'm just saying he's no sub human force of evil... he's just a man, like the rest of us, dealing with the same sin issues as the rest of us. If any of us could run a country flawlessly, then maybe we could judge better. I certainly would NOT want his job!

And yes Moll, I do see the anti-Christ being in us each individually and also in a more corporate body... the modern day church system. (Uh oh, there's that heretic in me coming out again...  :laughing7:) In all seriousness, the Lord showed me a couple of months ago that the religious spirit in me had actually been persecuting Him. (The religious always seek to kill Him... think Pharisees, etc. They persecute Love; they prefer doctrine, letter, etc.) This was while I was in the church, which was why the religious spirit in me was so dominant. It was horrifying and humiliating when He showed me that. Anyhow, what I'm trying to say is, yes the anti-Christ spirit is quite present in each of us, and especially in the "church" as a whole. And being set free from that is sooooo freeing!!! (I'm in the process.  :smile:)

You might like the edit of my post while you were posting.   :wink1:

Again, I don't want to get too deeply into politics, unless it's very connected to the OP.

But, I personally basically believe the whole worldly system to be corrupted, and even controlled by "principalities and powers" behind the scenes.

Watch and pray.

Quote from: jabcat on July 01, 2012, 12:29:59 AM
You might like the edit of my post while you were posting.   :wink1:

Hahaha Jab  :thumbsup:

Yes, there is an antichrist spirit which is like any other spirit out there.  It can affect people.

But Daniel the prophet and the book of Revelation point to one man at the end of time who will be indwelt by Satan, as Satan seeks to beat Jesus to the punch and establish his one world government before Jesus does.  He is the Antichrist.





25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
--Daniel 7

666 is the number of mankind. Anthropos

Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

--Luke 21:36

Quote from: Molly on July 01, 2012, 03:52:47 PM
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

--Luke 21:36

Thanks Molly, I really needed to be reminded of Watch and Pray.  I was also reminded of Hab 2:1 and Hab 3:17-19 (A meditation on Hab watching and praying brought great peace to my mind and heart at a time I was deeply troubled with all the "churches" denominations--I so wanted to assemble ... as well as with my ongoing struggles with our government (local and national).... in a way:  watching keeps me from sticking my head in the sand and praying keeps me from standing on my soapbox. 

Quote from: anna274 on July 01, 2012, 05:18:43 PM

Quote from: Molly on July 01, 2012, 03:52:47 PM
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

--Luke 21:36

Thanks Molly, I really needed to be reminded of Watch and Pray.  I was also reminded of Hab 2:1 and Hab 3:17-19 (A meditation on Hab watching and praying brought great peace to my mind and heart at a time I was deeply troubled with all the "churches" denominations--I so wanted to assemble ... as well as with my ongoing struggles with our government (local and national).... in a way:  watching keeps me from sticking my head in the sand and praying keeps me from standing on my soapbox.

I still don't get this, Anna.  What is wrong with your soapbox?  I would rather listen to you than many who are out there influencing the marketplace.  Why the vow of silence?


What I tell you now in the darkness, shout abroad when daybreak comes. What I whisper in your ear, shout from the housetops for all to hear!  Mat 10:27

Quote from: Molly on July 01, 2012, 08:57:33 PM

Quote from: anna274 on July 01, 2012, 05:18:43 PM

Quote from: Molly on July 01, 2012, 03:52:47 PM
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

--Luke 21:36

Thanks Molly, I really needed to be reminded of Watch and Pray.  I was also reminded of Hab 2:1 and Hab 3:17-19 (A meditation on Hab watching and praying brought great peace to my mind and heart at a time I was deeply troubled with all the "churches" denominations--I so wanted to assemble ... as well as with my ongoing struggles with our government (local and national).... in a way:  watching keeps me from sticking my head in the sand and praying keeps me from standing on my soapbox.

I still don't get this, Anna.  What is wrong with your soapbox?  I would rather listen to you than many who are out there influencing the marketplace.  Why the vow of silence?


What I tell you now in the darkness, shout abroad when daybreak comes. What I whisper in your ear, shout from the housetops for all to hear!  Mat 10:27

MY soapbox is very, very different from MY "housetop" (a place  for meditation and prayer).  No vow of silence... just being prayerfully cautious to not "shout" BEFORE the daybreak comes.

Shall we start a new thread Matt 10:27... it might provide a place where people can share what they've been told... or heard from that "still small voice"...

Feast of Trumpets in Scripture

[Num 29:1] And in the seventh month, on the first day of the month, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work: it is a day of blowing the trumpets unto you.

[Lev 23:24] Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.
[Lev 23:25] Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.

[Pss 81:3] Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day.  KJV

[Col 2:16] Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday [festival], or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
[Col 2:17] Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

[1Cor 15:46] Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

[Num 10:10] On the day of your gladness also, and at your appointed feasts, and at the beginnings of your months, you shall blow the trumpets over your burnt offerings and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings; they shall serve you for remembrance/memorial before your God: I am the LORD your God."

[Num 10:2] Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps.
[Num 10:3] And when they shall blow with them, all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

[Neh 8:1] And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that was before the water gate; and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which the LORD had commanded to Israel.
[Neh 8:2] And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, upon the first day of the seventh month.
[Neh 8:3] And he read therein before the street that was before the water gate from the morning until midday, before the men and the women, and those that could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive unto the book of the law.

[Ezra 3:5] And afterward offered the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the LORD.
[Ezra 3:6] From the first day of the seventh month began they to offer burnt offerings unto the LORD. But the foundation of the temple of the LORD was not yet laid.
[Ezra 3:7] They gave money also unto the masons, and to the carpenters; and meat, and drink, and oil, unto them of Zidon, and to them of Tyre, to bring cedar trees from Lebanon to the sea of Joppa, according to the grant that they had of Cyrus king of Persia.

Pss 104:19 He appointed the moon for seasons [seasons--Mo'edim--appointed times]: the sun knoweth his going down.


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Door Opened in Heaven on Trumpets & at the Rapture;
is the rapture into that
Heavenly Mansion / Pavillion / Bridal Chamber / New Jersualem
Ezek 46:1 "Thus says the Lord GOD: The gate of the inner court that faces east shall be shut on the six working days; but on the sabbath day it shall be opened and on the day of the new moon it shall be opened.

Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

[Mat 25:10] And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

[John 10:7] Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
[John 10:9] I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

[Isa 26:2] Open ye the gates, that the righteous nation which keepeth the truth may enter in.

[Pss 118:19] Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD:
[Pss 118:20] This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter.

[Isa 26:19] Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
[Isa 26:20] Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
[Isa 26:21] For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

[Luke 13:24] Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

[Pss 27:4] One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to enquire in his temple.
[Pss 27:5] For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.

[John 14:2.3] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
[John 14:3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

[Rev 21:2] And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her
husband.
[Rev 21:3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven [great trumpet?] saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

[Rev 21:9] And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
[Rev 21:10] And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem,
descending out of heaven from God,



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Wedding at a Feast of Trumpets
[Pss 81:3] Blow the trumpet at the new moon, at the full moon, on our feast day.
[Pss 81:4] For it is a statute for Israel, an ordinance of the God of Jacob.
[Pss 81:5] He made it a decree in Joseph, when he went out over the land of Egypt. I hear a voice I had not known:

[Gen 41:45] And Pharaoh called Joseph's name Zaphenath-paneah; and he gave him in marriage Asenath, the daughter of Potiphera priest of On. So Joseph went out over the land of Egypt.
[Gen 41:46] Joseph was thirty years old when he entered the service of Pharaoh king of Egypt. And Joseph went out from the presence of Pharaoh, and went through all the land of Egypt.
[Gen 41:47] During the seven plenteous years the earth brought forth abundantly,


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Concealment at the Feast of Trumpets
[Pss 81:3] Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day.  KJV
[Pss 81:3] Blow the trumpet at the new moon, at the full moon, on our feast day.  RSV
[Pss 81:3] "Sound the shofar on the New Moon, in concealment of the day of our festival"
 

03677 kece' {keh'-seh} or keceh {keh'-seh}
                 apparently from 03680; TWOT - 1006; n m
                 AV - appointed 2; 2
                 1) full moon
03680 kacah {kaw-saw'}

                 a primitive root; TWOT - 1008; v
                 AV - cover 135, hide 6, conceal 4, covering 2, overwhelmed 2, clad 1,
                 closed 1, clothed 1; 152
                 1) to cover, conceal, hide
                 1a) (Qal) conceal, covered (participle)
                 1b) (Niphal) to be covered
                 1c) (Piel)
                 1c1) to cover, clothe
                 1c2) to cover, conceal
                 1c3) to cover (for protection)
                 1c4) to cover over, spread over
                 1c5) to cover, overwhelm
                 1d) (Pual)
                 1d1) to be covered
                 1d2) to be clothed
                 1e) (Hithpael) to cover oneself, clothe oneself

From the above verse and Concordance meaning of the word, one meaning of Trumpets is concealment.

The day is called "the hidden day" as an expression or Jewish Idiom.
The day is referred to as "that day or hour no man knows", because it happens at the first sight of the sliver of a new moon, which can happen on either the 29th or 30th day, and thus, uncertain. Also, this phrases is associated with a wedding in Matt 25:13
The "mystery" of the rapture happens on this day. 1 Cor 15:52
And those caught up in the rapture will be hidden away in that Heavenly Bridal Chamber, the many mansions of John 14:2,3.
[Zeph 2:3] Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger.
[Pss 27:5] For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.
[Isa 26:20] Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
In addition, from the above, those in the rapture will be covered by the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, and also clothed in white robes, the righteousness of the saints.
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Two Main Rapture Verses
[1 Corinthians 15:51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[1 Corinthians 15:52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

[1 Thessalonians 4:16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[1 Thessalonians 4:17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[1 Thessalonians 4:18] Therefore comfort one another with these words.



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Born Again / Made incorruptable / Baptism
at the rapture on the Feast of Trumpets

The New Moon is "born again" at the Feast of Trumpets.

Believers are "born again" at baptism.

John 3
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

I understand this question "art thou a master of Israel and knowest not these things?" to mean that, Jesus believed a master of Israel should have known about being baptised by water and holy spirit and being born again into incorruption at the rapture to enter heaven.

[1 Corinthians 15:51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[1 Corinthians 15:52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[1 Corinthians 15:53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Certainly, at the rapture, the change to incorruptible is like being born again, made new.

[1Pet 1:23] Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

As the moon represents believers; both are "born again" at the Feast of Trumpets.

The moon reflects the light of the sun, as believers reflect the light of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Even the diameter of the moon ALSO reflects the diamater of the sun, when multiplied by 4. The diamater of the sun is 864,000 miles. The diameter of the moon is 2160 miles. Multiplied by 4, the diameter of the moon is 8640 miles. Containing the same 864 number. The 24 hours in a day, multiplied by 60 minutes and 60 seconds give us 8640 seconds in a day.



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The number 4, in Hebrew, is dalet, and is the forth letter of the alphabet, and also means door.  Jesus came 2000 years ago, about at year 4000 since creation. The Lord Jesus Christ said he was the door.
[John 10:9] I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

We go through the open door (4, Jesus Christ) at the rapture, on the feast of trumpets, on the new moon.


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The Lord Jesus Christ, like the sun, is the light of the world, and we reflect his light, like the moon.
 

[Mal 4:2] But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

[John 8:12] Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

[Mat 5:16] Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.



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The rapture in Rev. 12 is a rapture of a new born child, the Church.

[Rev 12:4] And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

[Rev 12:5] And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Jesus was not caught up to God as a child, and it seems rather pointless to rehash the resurrection with figurative language that does not accurately picture Jesus only.  Remember, the Church is also called the "body of Christ".  That this is not only describing Jesus is evident in the fact that his bride, the Church also rules with a rod of iron:  Christ rules, and we rule as his bride (also with a rod of iron), but the Lord Jesus Christ is the head.

[Rev 2:26] He who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, I will give him power over the nations,
[Rev 2:27] and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received power from my Father;

[Rev 5:10] And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The "man child" is spoken of in Isaiah as a "nation being born" before the labor pains of tribulation. This represents the rapture before the tribulation; being born, made new, incorruptable, at the rapture.

Isaiah 66:
7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once?
for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

The resurrection is also described as being reborn.

[Col 1:18] And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To summarize so far:
The Feast of Trumpets speaks of the moon being reborn.
Revelation 12 speaks of a newly born man-child being raptured.

Rev 12 has actually been playing out in the stars over Jerusalem exactly during the Feast of Trumpets for four years, from 1996, '97, '98, & '99.

The moon was "birthed" between the legs of the constellation virgo, showing that the man-child of revelation 12 is the new moon.

Thus, when the moon is reborn, at the new moon, it is a highly appropriate time for the rapture and resurrection. The Feast of Trumpets is the only Feast on a new moon.

More "birth" scriptures, having to do with the rapture &/or the tribulation "time of trouble":

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The tribulation is also known as the "time of Jacob's trouble"

Jeremiah 30:
6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From John 3, recall, we see that Baptism is being born again, with water and Holy Spirit.
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Baptism (& being born again) is also a symbol of death and resurrection, which occurs at the rapture.




Bibleprophesy.org

QuoteBaptism (& being born again) is also a symbol of death and resurrection, which occurs at the rapture.

NOOOOOOO!!! It doesn't occur at any "rapture"!! It is to occur now, here! There is a great chapter on the Feast of Trumpets in George Warnock's Feast of Tabernacles book. I would encourage everyone to read it!

Quote from: lomarah on July 03, 2012, 12:59:01 AM

QuoteBaptism (& being born again) is also a symbol of death and resurrection, which occurs at the rapture.

NOOOOOOO!!! It doesn't occur at any "rapture"!! It is to occur now, here! There is a great chapter on the Feast of Trumpets in George Warnock's Feast of Tabernacles book. I would encourage everyone to read it!

Not sure what you mean.  Our bodies will be changed at the rapture, mortality swallowed up by immortality--at the last [7th] trump.

I like to think of it as we are like premature babies, born out of due time, an aion early, so we do not yet have our fully developed bodies.  We will not receive these until the end of the age, which is why we only see in a darkened mirror at this time.



And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

--Rom 8:23

Being born again and partaking in the resurrection are to occur now! Douglas Duncan's book is good for this topic too. (Modern Day Prophet).

Quote from: lomarah on July 03, 2012, 01:14:15 AM
Being born again and partaking in the resurrection are to occur now! Douglas Duncan's book is good for this topic too. (Modern Day Prophet).

Yes, but we will not receive our immortal bodies until the end of the age, at the last trump.

(Not sure about our physical bodies, I'm talking spiritual.)

Quote from: lomarah on July 03, 2012, 01:16:14 AM
(Not sure about our physical bodies, I'm talking spiritual.)

I'm talking fully physical and fully spiritual.  We just have a downpayment now, an earnest, which guarantees that we will be fully redeemed some day, at the last trumpet, when this corruptible puts on incorruption and we are given immortal bodies like the resurrected Christ.


In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
--1 Cor 15:52

Some say we turn into immortal beings in this life, others say Christ returns and He changes the mortal into immortal (IMO, I Cor. 15 and I Thes. 4)

Quote from: jabcat on July 03, 2012, 01:48:53 AM
Some say we turn into immortal beings in this life, others say Christ returns and He changes the mortal into immortal (IMO, I Cor. 15 and I Thes. 4)

Why can't it be both.  I believe we are already immortal, having passed over from death to life, but that we won't be given our final bodies, that is, fully redeemed,  until the end of the age.

Quote from: jabcat on July 03, 2012, 01:55:54 AM
I personally agree, it's probably bits and pieces of several different views.

We know the body is in the grave--dig it up and see.

We are told that body will be resurrected.

But, we are also told, that a body is prepared for us in heaven, while we wait, so to speak.

So I don't understand the problem.



5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [aionios] in the heavens.

--2 Cor 5

I'll just say, he will return and he will manifest in us, both.

And, the dead shall be raised first--incorruptible, and we shall be changed, atomos rhipe opthalmos!

Quote from: Molly on July 03, 2012, 02:07:53 AM
he will return and he will manifest in us, both.

And, the dead shall be raised first--incorruptible, and we shall be changed!

Amen! to that.  And then supper begins!

yes but what abut people who claim to get dreams of the rapture.... are there anyone u know that gotten them before...and  later abandoned their views....

Quote from: Wakawakawaka on July 03, 2012, 03:32:28 AM
yes but what abut people who claim to get dreams of the rapture.... are there anyone u know that gotten them before...and  later abandoned their views....

In the last days,' God says, 'I will pour out my Spirit upon all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy. Your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams.

Acts 2:17

but what about rapture dreams.....are they people whom had them and later abandoned their views

I Googled a bit and didn't find any...not saying there are none, just that I didn't see any.

It says they will have dreams and visions.  It doesn't say they will be accurate.

But, if someone predicts rapture for 2011 and it happens in 2015, is that a close enough margin of error in a 2000 year window?

but why do only the pre trib guys have these kinds of dreams

Quote from: Wakawakawaka on July 03, 2012, 03:54:39 AM
but why do only the pre trib guys have these kinds of dreams

Who says the tribulation hasn't started?

huh good point

Hi Molly:
Your statement:  "It doesn't say they will be accurate" ...  really piqued my curiousity... I can't do any searching, etc. tonight, but will first thing in the morning.  thanks, anna

 "Know this, that in the last days perilous times will come."
--2 Tim 3:1

Anyone think these days qualify as 'perilous'?

"perilous"

1. Full of danger or risk.
2. Exposed to imminent risk of disaster or ruin.

Tribulation .....is just that ,a pressing down.how are diamonds formed? - with pressure.we all must be tested and tried just as Jesus was.I pray that God gives us the strength in each situation we must go through
Blessings :icon_king: :icon_king: :icon_king: :icon_king:

but still what do non pre tribbers get dreams of the end times

Quote from: Molly on July 03, 2012, 03:51:57 AM
It says they will have dreams and visions.  It doesn't say they will be accurate.

But, if someone predicts rapture for 2011 and it happens in 2015, is that a close enough margin of error in a 2000 year window?

Not if s/he is a prophet. I think everyone receiving true dreams on a certain subject is a prophet on that certain subject.
If the person isn't a prophet the dreams have no more value than any other opinion based of calculations, denominations and all other sorts of methods to figure out a date.

Purely looking at the Latin word (tribulum) our word tribulation is likely derived from, tribulation is an event that has nothing to do with saints. (unless they are standing on the sledge).
It doesn't pinpoint any date but I think we we should keep a very close eye on argicultural events because it's  a major part of the Biblical teachings.

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 03, 2012, 07:57:26 AM

Quote from: Molly on July 03, 2012, 03:51:57 AM
It says they will have dreams and visions.  It doesn't say they will be accurate.

But, if someone predicts rapture for 2011 and it happens in 2015, is that a close enough margin of error in a 2000 year window?

Not if s/he is a prophet. I think everyone receiving true dreams on a certain subject is a prophet on that certain subject.
If the person isn't a prophet the dreams have no more value than any other opinion based of calculations, denominations and all other sorts of methods to figure out a date.

No one said they had value, except as an indicator of end times.

If they are indicators they have value.
People have seen indicators for two millenia.
Sure eventually someone will be right.

Maybe it's me, but it seems to have really picked up in frequency these days, moreso than I ever remember in the past.

See youtube.  Everyone and his great aunt is on there telling their dreams and visions.

How many of those visions align?

I think 2 different things are being discussed.  One, the high incidence of dreams and visions indicates end times.  Two, are there any that are accurate, and if so, how many/which ones?

A lot have been talking this past year about how the rapture is imminent.

Many have been talking about specific natural disasters that are to occur and many of those agree with each other also.

Most do not give specific dates, but just say 'soon.'

You can tell they have a feeling of urgency.

I know James. But the question is: Can those things be seperate?

If God gives an end-time vision then the person recieving that vision is a prophet. Does God set dates with high accuracy? Or does He use dates with a 2000 year error margin?
I think by far the biggest problem with prophets is recognising one amoung many false prophets.
The OT writes about a few true prophets; but during the lifetime of those prophets many false ones lived.
Molly is right there are many movies on YouTube. Also many books, articles, etc etc.
Shall I post a thread about my Scrabble game with God? Would you just believe it? Why (not)?

QuoteOne, the high incidence of dreams and visions indicates end times.  Two, are there any and/or how many are accurate?

If none is accurate then there were no prohetic dreams at all.
Or people recieving true visions started spicing up things a bit. (adding their own thoughts)

Quote from: onlytruth on July 03, 2012, 05:32:02 AM
Tribulation .....is just that ,a pressing down.how are diamonds formed? - with pressure.we all must be tested and tried just as Jesus was.I pray that God gives us the strength in each situation we must go through
Blessings :icon_king: :icon_king: :icon_king: :icon_king:

AMEN!

THE LATTER RAIN--GOD WILL POUR OUT HIS SPIRIT ON ALL FLESH
by Francis Frangipane



"All" Means All

The phrase "latter rain" can mean different things to different people. To its critics, it is a movement that promotes doctrinal heresy. To many others, however, the phrase "latter rain," though slightly antiquated, is a term used by the King James Bible to describe the final, worldwide outpouring of the Holy Spirit before Christ returns.

Although I do not personally use the term "latter rain," I do believe in this last great move of God. In fact, I have held this vision since 1970. Admittedly, my faith was tested during the 1970's, when many church leaders were predicting the end of the world. Frankly, not many actively believed there would be a great harvest during the seventies and eighties. However, in 1990, with the stunning collapse of Soviet communism, an accelerated era of worldwide evangelism truly began. Since then, the Holy Spirit has brought hundreds of millions into the Kingdom of God.

Thus, in spite of wars and other difficulties, my focus remains fixed on the great work of the Holy Spirit in these last days. The last great outpouring will not end until the Spirit of God has been poured out "upon all mankind" (Acts 2:17). "All" means all. It means God is serious about reaching Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, and other religions.

Indeed, the Lord is so passionate about the lost that He says He will "grant" undeniable "wonders in the sky above" and incontrovertible "signs on the earth" (Acts 2:19-20). I wholeheartedly believe that, during this last great move, we will see the true church united, many believers raised to Christ-like maturity, and a great harvest.

So, you decide: Is the doctrine of worldwide evangelism a heresy? Or is Christ-centered unity among believers a false doctrine? Is reaching for Christ-like purity and power a deception?

Remember, I am not saying life will get easy. The truth is, many already are dying for their faith. Yet, "those who sow in tears shall reap with joyful shouting" (Psalm 126). Jesus said the harvest was plentiful (Luke 10:2). And, I agree with those who warn of the spread of the apostate church; there is, indeed, deep darkness upon the earth. But it is in these very conditions that the Lord commands us to arise and be radiant with His glory. His promise is that nations shall come to our light and kings to the brightness of His rising (Isaiah 60:1-3). The end of the age is a time of both darkness and light (1 Thessalonians 5:4-5). We must see both.

The Bible and the Latter Rain

Still, the issue is not what I say about the latter rain or what the critics say, but what does the Bible teach? The phrase "latter rain" comes from several places in the Scriptures; the most prominent perhaps is from the book of James. Speaking of the Lord's return, the apostle writes:

"Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand" (James 5:7-8).

James is talking specifically about "the coming of the Lord." Many first century Christians expected the Lord to return in their lifetimes. They experienced the initial outpouring of the Spirit; they saw miracles, growth, and multiplication. Yet, still the Lord did not come. Thus, James encourages the church to "be patient," saying there is something yet to come for which God is waiting.

In this verse, the apostle frames all of church history metaphorically between two seasons of spiritual outpouring, which he calls the "early and latter rain." Agriculturally, it was understood that the early rains awakened the newly planted seeds and initiated the process of growth. Then, after several dry months, the latter rains came that revitalized the harvest and brought it to maturity (Deuteronomy 11:14; Joel 2:23; Zechariah 10:1).

You see, God had much more on His heart than the early Christians anticipated. The Church saw a limited outpouring that fell upon a smaller world. The truth was that both the world and the final outpouring is proving to be much larger.

Bible Scholars and the Latter Rain

It is important to note that a number of Bible scholars also support the idea of a second outpouring. Charles Wesley interpreted James 5:7, saying, "The husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit--which will recompense his labor and patience. Till he receives the former rain--immediately after sowing. And the latter--before the harvest." Wesley wrote, "the latter" rain came "before the harvest" (or the end of the age).

There are other commentaries written from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown on James 5:7. They explained: "The early rain fell at sowing time, about November or December; the latter rain, about March or April, to mature the grain for harvest. The latter rain that shall precede the coming spiritual harvest, will probably be another Pentecost-like effusion of the Holy Ghost."

This isn't Charismatic chaos! It's New Testament theology, and Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown are distinguished, time-tested scholars who wrote their Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible in 1871.

Plainly, we are to expect a special outpouring. This is not "manifest sons" doctrine nor "kingdom now" theology. This doesn't mean there aren't churches in all forms of apostasy; nations will still be judged at the end of the age. We are simply stating, according to the word of God, that between now and when Jesus Christ returns, there will be another great outpouring, and that we are in the beginning of that outpouring now.

Do Not Be Afraid

My friends, the enemy has put a blockade of false warnings, fear, and accusation around one of the most powerful end time realities: the final work of the Holy Spirit to bring the gospel worldwide! I am not saying we should be naive or blind to all that is wrong in the church, but neither should we be blind to what God is doing.

To have faith for this outpouring is not heretical, even if it seems like heresy to those in unbelief. Therefore, do not fear being labeled a "heretic" when you speak of your vision. Pray for your nation with confidence, without intimidation, knowing that the reality of the latter rain is occurring even as we speak. Remember, hundreds of millions have come into the Kingdom of God over these last years--revival can occur in your nation as well! Consider the growth of the church in China, from ten million in 1974, to over 100 million today. We are in the time of outpouring, beloved, whether critics agree with it or not!

The world only sees the headlines from hell, yet the gospel of the Kingdom is advancing. God will not stop until "all nations" hear the gospel.

In truth, a time is coming when, as suddenly as the Soviet Union collapsed, so the stronghold of Islam will crumble as well. God has determined to reach the Muslim world, and once again, "wise men from the east" will come looking for Him who was born King of the Jews. Yes, even radicalized Muslims will look upon the Son of God and, in their new found freedom, they will love Christ most fervently. Indeed, the Lord shall even reveal Himself to key Islamic rulers--individuals whose influence will draw multitudes closer to Jesus Christ.

"Thus He will sprinkle many nations, kings will shut their mouths on account of Him; for what had not been told them they will see, and what they had not heard they will understand" (Isaiah 52:15).

Whether the breakthrough occurs in the immediate years, or tarries beyond a decade or more, an awakening is destined for the Muslim world. Just as the Lord has promised, He will pour out His Spirit upon all mankind (Acts 2:17).

Thus, the last, great outpouring shall reach all cultures of the world, and "...everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Acts 2:21).

http://www.identitynetwork.net/apps/articles/default.asp?articleid=26318&columnid=

Quote from: Molly on July 03, 2012, 09:35:26 AM
A lot have been talking this past year about how the rapture is imminent.

Many have been talking about specific natural disasters that are to occur and many of those agree with each other also.

Most do not give specific dates, but just say 'soon.'

You can tell they have a feeling of urgency.

But I how do you know this hasnt been going on since earlier times, i mean communication has gotten a lot more easy then it did many years ago

Quote from: Wakawakawaka on July 03, 2012, 08:01:56 PM

Quote from: Molly on July 03, 2012, 09:35:26 AM
A lot have been talking this past year about how the rapture is imminent.

Many have been talking about specific natural disasters that are to occur and many of those agree with each other also.

Most do not give specific dates, but just say 'soon.'

You can tell they have a feeling of urgency.

But I how do you know this hasnt been going on since earlier times, i mean communication has gotten a lot more easy then it did many years ago

I've had an eye on youtube since its inception.  It's the first time I've seen it like this, although I will admit it is simply a perception on my part.  I cannot prove it.

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.
--2 Thes 2:7

Is this a rapture verse?  If it is the Holy Spirit who is restraining the mystery of lawlessness, when will he be taken out of the way?   Will it be when the Spirit filled Christians are removed at the rapture?


2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

--2 Thess 2


So first there will be 'a falling away,' and then the Antichrist will be revealed, because there is no longer the one present who held him back.

The term translated as 'falling away' could also be translated as 'departure,' as in the rapture, and it was in the earlier Bibles before KJV.

"falling away"

From the root word

G868
ἀφίστημι
aphistēmi
af-is'-tay-mee
From G575 and G2476; to remove, that is, (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.: - depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.

It makes more sense to read it as--> the departure of the Holy Spirit [in the vessels of Spirit filled Christians] will allow the Antichrist to come to the full realization of his power.

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.  2 Thess 2

Quote from: Molly on July 03, 2012, 08:26:56 PM

Quote from: Wakawakawaka on July 03, 2012, 08:01:56 PM

Quote from: Molly on July 03, 2012, 09:35:26 AM
A lot have been talking this past year about how the rapture is imminent.

Many have been talking about specific natural disasters that are to occur and many of those agree with each other also.

Most do not give specific dates, but just say 'soon.'

You can tell they have a feeling of urgency.

But I how do you know this hasnt been going on since earlier times, i mean communication has gotten a lot more easy then it did many years ago

I've had an eye on youtube since its inception.  It's the first time I've seen it like this, although I will admit it is simply a perception on my part.  I cannot prove it.

ive did a check its been going on for years.....besides its 2012....and i think its the post tribber whom mostly dream of disasters

IMO. The Holy Spirit has been leading me to make plans for my Family.
and lay up an inheritance to the third generation.

Quote from: dajomaco on July 04, 2012, 12:04:37 AM
IMO. The Holy Spirit has been leading me to make plans for my Family.
and lay up an inheritance to the third generation.

Meaning a deep recession or something?

Quote from: reFORMer on June 29, 2012, 07:58:02 AM

Quote from: Molly on June 29, 2012, 05:25:01 AM
Dot No. 4.......Any serious Bible student should know that the flood in the days of Noah was a type of the coming Tribulation period. The Lord Himself verified this truth when He spoke of the

"great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no nor ever shall be," Matthew 24:21, and then in the same chapter the Lord also said, "But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be," 24:37. The Greek word translated as "coming" in verse 37 and again in verse 39 in this passage is the word, "parousia." This word is repeatedly connected with the rapture of New Covenant believers in the New Testament. It is not speaking of the Lord's return at the end of the Tribulation.

Not only is the word "parousia" associated with the word "rapture," so is "harpazo," as well as other concepts.  I can't say turn to such and such a chapter and verse to see what it says about "rapture" because none exist.  It is a traditional and extra-biblical category.  "Parousia," being a Greek word in the Scripture, is a category God uses to make His revelation known.  The same is true of "harpazo."  However, there is nothing that melds these two words into one category in the Scripture.  The word "parousia" means "to be (to exist,) to be present, presence."  It is not about something coming from someplace else.  At least forty times the word "parousia" is misleadingly translated as "coming" in the King James Version.

If you don't know what it is that is supposed to happen, are unaware of what we should be expecting, why would you think you'd know when it'll happen?

To put various categories, Scripture words or not, into one extra-biblical word is a working of deception.  It confuses several specific categories God set up as separate.  It erases the boundaries between particular words God used for other purposes.  It is what Paul the apostle called "blasphemy"  In the Greek this is a word that means, "To not use the proper harness, hence letting the horse (ie., word) run wild."

There is nothing about two 2nd comings in the Bible.  There is nothing there about any period of time between two 2nd comings or some period of time between a coming "for" His saints and a coming "with" His saints.  The phrase, "coming FOR His saints" also never occurs in the Scripture.   

Many interesting facts can be gathered about various things; but, when those things are not specified by actual words God chose to make His revelation known followers of the Truth do not believe them.  All the more so when those made up things replace what God has spoken.  Remember how the King was throwing a party (Feast of Tabernacles) and Vashti not only would not come to it to be seen, to be manifested, she also created her own party (the Rapture) instead.

Molly,

You didn't respond to this preceding that I wrote on the 28th.  I have seen people enthused, both joyously and with rage, yet they aren't in the truth.  Their passion is after a deception.  It is important to see and judge within ourselves whether we are operating out of religious obsession or spiritual quickening.  Often, in seeking to correct someone called a Pastor, they have reacted with red face, veins-a-poppin', spit-a-flyin', hollerin', bellowin', and sometimes getting ushers or even the police to haul me out when I would walk out under my own power if they'd've just asked.  I did nothing but try to speak with the Pastor about matters in Scripture semi-privately after the meeting was over.  They don't seem able to see themselves.  They're blind to the carnal fit they had, some even thinking it was of God.  I speak this way because I recognize you are very energized over this topic.

To me one of the ground rules for a discussion of things of God is to confine ourselves to the vocabulary God chose to use.  As I also explained above, this is to not to use an extra- and non-biblical word for a category of doctrine.  It's done with pasting the English "hell" over several Greek words and adding to the mix the lake of fire, which they don't call hell.  Other ingredients are Pagan myths and traditions of men.  The result is not Good doctrine.  It is not Biblical truth.  I say you're doing the same with the word, "Rapture."  How can I respect what you say when you don't respect what God says enough to keep His word.  Instead you throw it out to create this nonbiblical category using the terminology of fairly recent traditions of men.

Would you explain to me what you find wrong with what I'm pleading for here in this post?

Hi Reformer, I did respond to your post by giving the Greek word and it's definitions.  It could be translated as, "coming," as you can see.


"coming" [of the Son of man]
G3952
παρουσία
parousia
par-oo-see'-ah
From the present participle of G3918; a being near, that is, advent (often, return; specifically of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physical aspect: - coming, presence.

You also said the KJV had mistranslated it as 'coming,' so I included seventeen translations that all use that same word.  The meaning they all convey is that there is an event where Christ will be 'coming' [for his saints, or to punish the wicked], one translation even translates it as 'returning.'

New International Version (©1984)
As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

New Living Translation (©2007)
"When the Son of Man returns, it will be like it was in Noah's day.

English Standard Version (©2001)
For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

International Standard Version (©2008)
because just as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be when the Son of Man comes.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
But just as the days of Noah, so will the coming of The Son of Man be.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"When the Son of Man comes again, it will be exactly like the days of Noah.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

American King James Version
But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

American Standard Version
And as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the Son of man.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And as in the days of Noe, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Darby Bible Translation
But as the days of Noe, so also shall be the coming of the Son of man.

English Revised Version
And as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the Son of man.

Webster's Bible Translation
But as the days of Noah were, so will also the coming of the Son of man be.

Weymouth New Testament
For as it was in the time of Noah, so it will be at the Coming of the Son of Man.

World English Bible
"As the days of Noah were, so will be the coming of the Son of Man


I agree about the word 'rapture.'   The only advantage it carries for me is that everyone knows what I am talking about.  If I said the 'parousia,' or the 'harpazo' no one would know what I was talking about.  Given your point of view, I could understand why the use of that word offends you, so I could stop using it I guess, but then I would use something like 'the coming or the return of Jesus ,' which would probably equally offend you.

Other than that, what do you think all these passages are describing?  We have a description of Jesus appearing in the sky with angels, a trumpet is sounded, the dead in Christ are raised, and the saints who are alive follow them to meet him in the air.   What is that describing? 

Or here, Reformer, we are given a prophesy by Enoch about Jesus coming with his saints.

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.  --Jude 1



What event is this describing?  Where did those saints come from?  Do they bear any relationship to the dead in Christ and the saints called to meet him in the air at the sound of the trumpet?

Is this describing a different event from the aforementioned event described in 1 Thess 4?  That event mentions nothing about judgment, but the coming of Jesus with his saints in Jude 1 is to execute judgment on the wicked of the world.

Doesn't it sound like these two passages are describing different events?

Jesus  rules His Kingdom with the Overcomers.
He rules with a rod of iron.
Biblical judgement isn't always doom and gloom.

So, for me, the two events you mentioned very well can be the same event.
I wouldn't be suprised at all if it also equals 'another' event. "...tormented in the presence of the Lamb and His angels...

 :goodpost:

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 04, 2012, 09:33:00 AM
Jesus  rules His Kingdom with the Overcomers.
He rules with a rod of iron.
Biblical judgement isn't always doom and gloom.

So, for me, the two events you mentioned very well can be the same event.
I wouldn't be suprised at all if it also equals 'another' event. "...tormented in the presence of the Lamb and His angels...

I agree with judgement by saints being the lof. He makes his misters flames of fire.

Quote from: Molly on July 04, 2012, 08:00:48 AM
Hi Reformer, I did respond to your post by giving the Greek word and it's definitions.  It could be translated as, "coming," as you can see.

What Greek Word?  There is no Greek word for Rapture.

Quote from: Molly on July 04, 2012, 08:00:48 AM
"coming" [of the Son of man]
G3952
παρουσία
parousia
par-oo-see'-ah
From the present participle of G3918; a being near, that is, advent (often, return; specifically of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physical aspect: - coming, presence.

You also said the KJV had mistranslated it as 'coming,' so I included seventeen translations that all use that same word.  The meaning they all convey is that there is an event where Christ will be 'coming' [for his saints, or to punish the wicked], one translation even translates it as 'returning.'

Are you implying parousia is the Geek for Rapture?  Like you later speak of harpazo as well.  This confusion, using several words, creating extrabiblical categories is how deception works while making a show of using Bible information.  That's why I mentioned blasphemy.  It is to not harness the power of a word with its true meaning.  Mixing words together with other words destroys their discrete meanings.  We can maintain relationships between words if there is one laid out for us by the LORD.  I don't know any Scripture that says parousia and harpazo are the same event.

When I mentioned the over 20 times use of "coming" for parousia I meant to clearly indicate how false and misleading it is.  It is a significant contribution to darkening mens' minds to what is impending in God's plan.  Parousia means, "To be, to be present, presence."  It is not about something coming here from somewhere else.  It is something that is already here.  Instead of something developing now withing us people expect something gone away to arrive outside of us in the future.  Which path of awareness you follow in this matter can make a lot of difference to whether we are developing in the image and likeness of Christ or not.

Some Greek word study books stress the use of it by translators.  The Strong's Greek and Hebrew Dictionaries are usage based, which has its value; but, one needs to consult a Lexicon or Theological Dictionary.  The use of various Bible translations is of limited authority.  Often they are following the familiar, the words that fit present acceptable doctrine.  It seems today faithfulness to God has been supplanted with pleasing the market group they've targeted.

Quote from: Molly on July 04, 2012, 08:00:48 AM
I agree about the word 'rapture.'   The only advantage it carries for me is that everyone knows what I am talking about.  If I said the 'parousia,' or the 'harpazo' no one would know what I was talking about.  Given your point of view, I could understand why the use of that word offends you, so I could stop using it I guess, but then I would use something like 'the coming or the return of Jesus ,' which would probably equally offend you.

Here, immediately above, you put harpazo and parousia together.  When I get a little more time I'll try to come back with a simple list of "Rapture" things for which nary a hint can be discovered in the Scripture.  When you say you use the word rapture because everybody knows what you mean I think you're being enormously over optimistic.  Like, when all the racially Gentile Christians are supposed to suddenly disappear, where do they go?  For my mother it is not the time we're all physically transfigured or resurrected, nor is it the 2nd coming.  We go to the city 4-square, a literal artifact of metal and crystal coming down out of the northern sky.  It is here we are to partake of the marriage supper of the lamb.  I have no idea how many attach this to their concept of the rapture.  Do you?  I think we're not aware of the multitudinous concepts under the term "Rapture."  The steeple-house practice of keeping everybody from contributing hides the lack of unity of knowledge we actually have.  It has long seemed the best approach is to beak the doctrine down into its component parts, try to define and validate each Biblically or reject as being unsubstantiated by the Word.

Quote from: Molly on July 04, 2012, 08:00:48 AM
Other than that, what do you think all these passages are describing?  We have a description of Jesus appearing in the sky with angels, a trumpet is sounded, the dead in Christ are raised, and the saints who are alive follow them to meet him in the air.   What is that describing?

I think the first thing that should be done in this rapture discussion is finding a OT parallel.
Or look at a NT parable. For example the 10 virgins.
They apantesis/meet their groom. A few verses later the groom is in the house of the virgins.

---

Paul's journey from Jerusalem to Rome as a prisoner:

Acts 28:15 And the brethren, when they heard about us, came from there as far as the Market of Appius and Three Inns [Greek: Taberne] to meet [apantesis] us; and when Paul saw them, he thanked God and took courage.

The Christians in Rome came to meet Paul as though he were a visiting dignitary. This was a great encouragement to Paul. Yet it is clear that Paul did not turn around and take these Christians back to Jerusalem. They met Paul and escorted him to Rome.

---

1 Thessalonians 4:17 says that we will "meet" the Lord in the air. The Greek word translated "to meet" is apantesis. Apantesis is the technical term that describes what the town leaders do when a very important person comes to visit them. They send a welcome delegation to meet him. But the delegation does not go back to the hometown of the visiting dignitary. Instead, they escort him to their own town

---

http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/SecondComing/Chap13.htm

That's an interesting article, Tony.  I like these parts;



In other words, there will be a second flood, but its purpose will not be to destroy, or to remove the spirit of life from men. Its purpose will be to regenerate all flesh by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in a baptism of fire. As in the days of Noah, this second flood will take the earth by surprise. Those who are incorrigible in this present age will be removed from power and ultimately confined to a portion of the earth that is outside the boundary of the Kingdom of God. This is the "outer darkness" that Jesus mentioned in His parables. But even this will not be a permanent state of affairs, because ultimately, the Kingdom of God will fill the whole earth as the waters cover the sea. Since water covers the entire sea, this means that the glory of God is going to cover the entire earth.

As the Tabernacles Age continues, the fire of God will be so powerful that the vast majority of the people will be converted and begin to learn of His ways. Then will be fulfilled the words of the prophet in Isaiah 2:2-4,

2 Now it will come about that In the last days, the mountain of the house of the LORD will be established as the chief of the mountains, and will be raised above the hills; and all the nations will stream to it. 3 And many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; that He may teach us concerning His ways, and that we may walk in His paths." For the law will go forth from Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And He will judge between the nations, and will render decisions for many peoples; and they will hammer their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, and never again will they learn war.

The wicked will either be removed, executed for their crimes, or (in most cases, I believe) converted to Christ by the baptism of fire. This will cleanse and purify the earth, making a place fit to be His footstool (Matthew 5:35).

When Will Every Eye See Him?

In Revelation 1:7 John tells us,

7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. Even so. Amen.

This is simply a statement of fact. The verse does not attempt to tell us WHEN everyone will see Him, nor even HOW. We do have Peter's testimony in Acts 3:20, 21, where he speaks of the "times of refreshing," and "restoration of all things."

These times of refreshing and restoration are not moments in history, but long periods of time in the ages to come. The beginning of these times coincide with the second coming of Christ, when the overcomers fulfill the Feast of Tabernacles. The fulfillment of this feast is, in effect, the authority to enter the Holy of Holies, breaking through the third and final veil that separates us from God and hides His glory. Hence, it seems to us that the only way men will actually see Christ in His glory will be as they come into the Feast of Tabernacles.

This will take place over a period of time. Most of us are accustomed to thinking that when Jesus comes, He will do everything immediately. All the wicked will be destroyed, and the righteous taken to heaven. This simplistic view has prevented us from fully appreciating the great Sabbath millennium, where God brings the earth into a time of rest under His rule. We believe that the overcomers will be the only ones raised from the dead and glorified on the eighth day of Tabernacles toward the beginning of this thousand-year period. We also believe that the rest of the Church will come into the Tabernacles experience at the beginning of the eighth thousand-year period. This will be in the early days after the Sabbath millennium.

The distinction between these two resurrections in Revelation 20 points to the idea that not all Christians will come into perfection at the same time. It strongly suggests that the Church will need to continue learning and progressing in the path of righteousness that moves from Passover to Pentecost to Tabernacles. In other words, Christians who have developed only partially in their walk with God will not be able to see the glory of God in the Holy of Holies until they have learned the lessons that each feast was designed to teach them. They will not be allowed to act in a lazy fashion, saying, "It does not matter what I do, since we will all be glorified at the same time when Jesus comes."

Nonetheless, all may certainly see Christ in the overcomers as they manifest Christ's character and do His works in the earth. Jesus said that they would do greater works than He did (John 14:12). In a very real sense, these overcomers have a calling to be Christ's great "cloud of witnesses."

A cloud not only manifests the glory of God, but it also hides or veils His glory. Remember that Jesus' flesh was the veil that hid the glory of God while He walked this earth (Heb. 10:20). Even so, the overcomers--who are His body--are also a veil that covers His glory. When the rest of the people see them in the earth, they are seeing Christ's body, but not His full glory. They manifest Him even as Jesus manifested the glory of the Father.

In like manner, the overcomers will both manifest and hide His glory from those who are not yet capable and qualified to view the glory of God in its full magnitude. These overcomers will have spiritual bodies like Jesus had after His resurrection, and they will appear to others as normal people with abnormal wisdom and deeds.

Jesus Christ has always been present upon the earth. He created all things, and He has never left the earth in that sense. Yet Jesus said He must leave. But then He told the disciples that He would never leave them nor forsake them (Heb. 13:5). Yet He also told them that He must leave them in order to send them "another Comforter" (John 14:16). This can be quite confusing to the average Christian. Is He here or not?

The question is not whether He is on earth or not. It is really a question of His manifestation. He has not fully manifested Himself on earth yet. He has not yet stepped out from behind the veil. He is still veiled by clouds, because the earth is not yet ready to behold His full glory.

Thus, the coming of Christ cannot imply that He ever really left the earth. He was taken from our sight by the clouds. He veiled Himself with clouds of witnesses, so that to see Him, one must look at His body. And yet, God's ultimate purpose is to expose Himself, in His naked glory, to the whole earth. This will happen in stages, as the rest of mankind follows the path from the outer court to the Holy of Holies. The overcomers are those who came into this full maturity first, but they are certainly not the only ones who will behold His glory at the end of time.

There are some who recognize these things, but conclude that Jesus Christ will not come in person, but "come" only through His saints or through the Church. Others go so far as to say that Jesus Christ is no longer an individual that is distinct from His body. We believe that these views take the point too far. In our view, Jesus Christ will always remain distinct from mankind. The head and the body must join together as one, but the head will always be the head, and the body will always be the body. Jesus Christ will marry the bride, and yet remain distinct from them in the same sense that a husband and wife are united as one and yet remain distinct.

Jesus Christ is coming again as a distinct individual. However, Jesus has been here since the beginning of time. The problem is that from the advent of sin, God had to hide His glory from mankind, lest he be destroyed. The purpose of Christ's coming is not to change locations, but to manifest Himself by degrees from the spiritual dimension into the physical universe. This will continue until the whole earth is full of His glory.

These are the times of refreshing and restoration of all things prophesied in Acts 3, which we quoted earlier. The heavens must receive Christ UNTIL these times. When Christ comes, it is heaven itself coming to earth, for where He is, there is heaven. His presence itself transforms earth into heaven, and we know that ultimately His glory will cover the earth, making it a new earth that is heavenly. But this will be a process of time, and as men mature and grow up into Christ, they will come fully into His presence and manifest His glory. In that sense, Christ must remain in the realm or spiritual dimension called "heaven" until the whole earth manifests His glory. Only then will all things be refreshed and fully restored. Then we can truly say that Christ has come to earth in the fullest possible sense.  http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/SecondComing/Chap13.htm

Whether 100% or not, I think what he says makes a lot of sense and deserves consideration.  He seems to say;

1.  Jesus never fully "left", it's more so that He's been veiled from most, as during this age the Holy Spirit has been "more present"

2.  He will "return", as in, He will physically/literally appear more clearly - suddenly to some, and then be gradually revealed more and more to mankind.  In so doing, He will take the spiritual into a literal, earth-covering reality

3. There will be a catching away/catching up, but similar to what I suggested earlier, it's a brief "meeting" just off terra firma (solid ground), rather than a complete "going away" (as in the Left Behind rapture scenario).  He then suggests there's an "escorting" of Jesus "to our abode", basically, into clearer view.

4.  He will manifest, through direct relationship, with His bride, and in doing so bring [the rest of] humanity to Him, until "the whole earth is full of His glory".

Quote from: jabcat on July 05, 2012, 09:42:44 AM
Whether 100% or not, I think what he says makes a lot of sense and deserves consideration.

Most of his writing do. He usually backs up his claims with lots of verses.
The chapter you have just read is part of a book. Not unusual for chapters  :laughing7:

The Laws of the Second Coming (http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/books/second_coming/index.cfm)

 :bigGrin:

When Jones says "Thus, the coming of Christ cannot imply that He ever really left the earth. He was taken from our sight by the clouds. He veiled Himself with clouds of witnesses, so that to see Him, one must look at His body. And yet, God's ultimate purpose is to expose Himself, in His naked glory, to the whole earth.

There are some who recognize these things, but conclude that Jesus Christ will not come in person, but "come" only through His saints or through the Church. Others go so far as to say that Jesus Christ is no longer an individual that is distinct from His body. We believe that these views take the point too far. In our view, Jesus Christ will always remain distinct from mankind. The head and the body must join together as one, but the head will always be the head, and the body will always be the body. Jesus Christ will marry the bride, and yet remain distinct from them in the same sense that a husband and wife are united as one and yet remain distinct..", much of it to me seems to be a reasonable, likely view that sort of bridges the gap between some of the many POVs on this subject.  Christ "returns", we are "caught up" and "meet Him", He manifests in us and is literally present, without going into questionable extremes.   :2c: 

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 05, 2012, 10:02:33 AM

Quote from: jabcat on July 05, 2012, 09:42:44 AM
Whether 100% or not, I think what he says makes a lot of sense and deserves consideration.

Most of his writing do. He usually backs up his claims with lots of verses.
The chapter you have just read is part of a book. Not unusual for chapters  :laughing7:

The Laws of the Second Coming (http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/books/second_coming/index.cfm)

:)

He was able to put into words what is probably about as close to "my view" as I can come right now.  Thanks for that.  :mthumbsup:

Quote from: jabcat on July 05, 2012, 10:05:52 AMThere are some who recognize these things, but conclude that Jesus Christ will not come in person, but "come" only through His saints or through the Church.

In a way that certainly is true. I think you should add Bible to that list.
Jesus is the Word. Saints obviously speak the word of God. Ok, it requires some bending of defenitions, but still.....

QuoteOthers go so far as to say that Jesus Christ is no longer an individual that is distinct from His body. We believe that these views take the point too far. In our view, Jesus Christ will always remain distinct from mankind.

I think so too. Even in/during the all-in-all phase.

QuoteThe head and the body must join together as one, but the head will always be the head, and the body will always be the body.

But work as one team. All parts of your body benefit from your hands putting food in your mouth. The hands in their turn benefit from the energy the body generates from that food.

QuoteJesus Christ will marry the bride, and yet remain distinct from them in the same sense that a husband and wife are united as one and yet remain distinct..", much of it to me seems to be a reasonable, likely view that sort of bridges the gap between some of the many POVs on this subject.

I think so yes. All (most?) Christians believe we become one with God. But I think none (very few?) believe we actually become God. Bot talking about as gods etc. But the supreme creator God.

QuoteChrist "returns", we are "caught up" and "meet Him", He manifests in us and is literally present, without going into questionable extremes.   :2c:

What does "up" mean? Picking up  a literal body or the most used term in this forum's prayer section "I'll lift you up".....
Meaning the saints get a spiritual boost. Perhaps a bit like the dove that decended on Jesus during baptism. I'm not saying Jesus was pagan before baptism but I think the event unleashed more of His power so to speak.... ????

messed up the quotes.  jabcat said;   Christ "returns", we are "caught up" and "meet Him", He manifests in us and is literally present, without going into questionable extremes.   :2c:

WW said;  What does "up" mean? Picking up  a literal body or the most used term in this forum's prayer section "I'll lift you up".....
Meaning the saints get a spiritual boost. Perhaps a bit like the dove that decended on Jesus during baptism. I'm not saying Jesus was pagan before baptism but I think the event unleashed more of His power so to speak.... ????

-------------
If I understand what Jones is saying, it will be a literal physical going to meet Him, then "escorting" Him back to where we are, rather than totally leaving as in a "rapture".  He describes it as running out to meet an arriving dignitary (in honor), then accompanying him the rest of his journey.  At that point, the bride is changed in a twinkling of an eye, the mortal taking on immortality, and then having Him manifest in the bride - bestowing special blessings and spiritual powers and abilities - to bring the rest in.  Again, rings pretty true to me. 

Quote from: jabcat on July 05, 2012, 10:38:33 AMIf I understand what Jones is saying, it will be a literal physical going to meet Him, then "escorting" Him back to where we are, rather than totally leaving as in a "rapture".

I'm sure that he means that.

He also draws a parallel between the coming of Jesus and Moses going up the mountain.
Moses stayed 40 days. Jones sees a possible parallel with Jesus staying there 40 Jubilee years. That part I understand.
But what about the other 7 times Moses went up?

For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.  Mat 24:37

Why does Jesus cite Noah here?  What happened in the days of Noah?  Men ate and drank until the day Noah walked into the ark and the floods came and they all died.

I don't see this 'rapture' as a meeting in order to immediately escort him back to some wonderful encounter with the earth.  I see this as entering into the ark while something devastating happens to the earth.  This is one reason I do not think the saints will return immediately to the earth with Christ.  The other reason is that there has to be time for the marriage ceremony and consummation.  Jesus does not step foot on the earth in the 1 Thess 4 passages, he is met in the air.  If he were going to step foot on the earth at that time, I think Paul would have mentioned it.

I didn't read those articles but the quotes seem to paint a rosy picture for the world when Christ returns with his saints to execute judgment [Jude 1].  If this event is the day of the LORD, which I believe it is, it won't be a rosy event.   And leading up to it will be the Great Tribulation [those words are in the Bible] which no one has addressed.

Maybe we should do a separate study on the day of the LORD.

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
--Mal 4


Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.

4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.

5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.

6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.

7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:

8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.

9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.

10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

11 And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

--Joel 2

Quote from: reFORMer on July 04, 2012, 07:32:05 AM

Quote from: reFORMer on June 29, 2012, 07:58:02 AM

Quote from: Molly on June 29, 2012, 05:25:01 AM
Dot No. 4.......Any serious Bible student should know that the flood in the days of Noah was a type of the coming Tribulation period. The Lord Himself verified this truth when He spoke of the

"great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no nor ever shall be," Matthew 24:21, and then in the same chapter the Lord also said, "But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be," 24:37. The Greek word translated as "coming" in verse 37 and again in verse 39 in this passage is the word, "parousia." This word is repeatedly connected with the rapture of New Covenant believers in the New Testament. It is not speaking of the Lord's return at the end of the Tribulation.

Not only is the word "parousia" associated with the word "rapture," so is "harpazo," as well as other concepts.  I can't say turn to such and such a chapter and verse to see what it says about "rapture" because none exist.  It is a traditional and extra-biblical category.  "Parousia," being a Greek word in the Scripture, is a category God uses to make His revelation known.  The same is true of "harpazo."  However, there is nothing that melds these two words into one category in the Scripture.  The word "parousia" means "to be (to exist,) to be present, presence."  It is not about something coming from someplace else.  At least forty times the word "parousia" is misleadingly translated as "coming" in the King James Version.

If you don't know what it is that is supposed to happen, are unaware of what we should be expecting, why would you think you'd know when it'll happen?

To put various categories, Scripture words or not, into one extra-biblical word is a working of deception.  It confuses several specific categories God set up as separate.  It erases the boundaries between particular words God used for other purposes.  It is what Paul the apostle called "blasphemy"  In the Greek this is a word that means, "To not use the proper harness, hence letting the horse (ie., word) run wild."

There is nothing about two 2nd comings in the Bible.  There is nothing there about any period of time between two 2nd comings or some period of time between a coming "for" His saints and a coming "with" His saints.  The phrase, "coming FOR His saints" also never occurs in the Scripture.   

Many interesting facts can be gathered about various things; but, when those things are not specified by actual words God chose to make His revelation known followers of the Truth do not believe them.  All the more so when those made up things replace what God has spoken.  Remember how the King was throwing a party (Feast of Tabernacles) and Vashti not only would not come to it to be seen, to be manifested, she also created her own party (the Rapture) instead.

Molly,

You didn't respond to this preceding that I wrote on the 28th.  I have seen people enthused, both joyously and with rage, yet they aren't in the truth.  Their passion is after a deception.  It is important to see and judge within ourselves whether we are operating out of religious obsession or spiritual quickening.  Often, in seeking to correct someone called a Pastor, they have reacted with red face, veins-a-poppin', spit-a-flyin', hollerin', bellowin', and sometimes getting ushers or even the police to haul me out when I would walk out under my own power if they'd've just asked.  I did nothing but try to speak with the Pastor about matters in Scripture semi-privately after the meeting was over.  They don't seem able to see themselves.  They're blind to the carnal fit they had, some even thinking it was of God.  I speak this way because I recognize you are very energized over this topic.

To me one of the ground rules for a discussion of things of God is to confine ourselves to the vocabulary God chose to use.  As I also explained above, this is to not to use an extra- and non-biblical word for a category of doctrine.  It's done with pasting the English "hell" over several Greek words and adding to the mix the lake of fire, which they don't call hell.  Other ingredients are Pagan myths and traditions of men.  The result is not Good doctrine.  It is not Biblical truth.  I say you're doing the same with the word, "Rapture."  How can I respect what you say when you don't respect what God says enough to keep His word.  Instead you throw it out to create this nonbiblical category using the terminology of fairly recent traditions of men.

Would you explain to me what you find wrong with what I'm pleading for here in this post?

Lest you accuse me of not addressing you again, I will address you one more time.  You are projecting a lot of stuff on me that is a result of your past experiences with church people.  I am not going to call the police and have you put in jail for your views.  Neither do I take kindly to being accused of blasphemy which you seem to have done twice now.  I overlooked it the first time.  But, I am merely doing what you and everyone else is doing, looking to understand the scripture.  If your understanding is different, you can state that without beating me over the head with false accusations and name calling.

Quote from: Molly on July 05, 2012, 11:26:19 AMI didn't read those articles

'nuff said.

Does Jesus leave the earth? 

He says he will.


For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

--Mat 25



Simon Peter said to Him, "Lord, where are You going?" Jesus answered, "Where I go, you cannot follow Me now; but you will follow later."

--John 13:36



And, they watch him leave.



And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.  Acts 1:9

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 05, 2012, 11:34:26 AM

Quote from: Molly on July 05, 2012, 11:26:19 AMI didn't read those articles

'nuff said.

Like I said I read the extensive quotes.  I really can't stomach the kingdom ministries stuff because it seems so out of touch with reality to me.

Maybe you'd like to address the substance of what I had to say.

Jesus will return to earth the second time as Messiah ben David, the Lion of Judah.

No more Mr. Nice Guy.

He has come to save the world - not destroy it.

Nevertheless I do think there ARE dark days ahead. Very dark. I agree with you there Molly.

QuoteMaybe you'd like to address the substance of what I had to say.

A honest answer?
- Substantial doctrinal/wishful thinking.
- (almost) void of Scriptual support.

The article shows several "raputure words" in another context. Using many verses + Greek words for you to verify. Jabcat's extensive quotes are actually a small summary.

In case you like L Ray Smith better. (be warned the article doesn't support your view)
http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm

My advise. Read the whole book because you will benefit from it. You will learn something new or will strenghten your current view.

Quote from: lomarah on July 05, 2012, 12:05:25 PM
He has come to save the world - not destroy it.

Nevertheless I do think there ARE dark days ahead. Very dark. I agree with you there Molly.

I think it's good to always have a healthy respect for God.

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

--Mal 4

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 05, 2012, 12:09:40 PM

QuoteMaybe you'd like to address the substance of what I had to say.

A honest answer?
- Substantial doctrinal/wishful thinking.
- (almost) void of Scriptual support.

The article shows several "raputure words" in another context. Using many verses + Greek words for you to verify. Jabcat's extensive quotes are actually a small summary.

In case you like L Ray Smith better. (be warned the article doesn't support your view)
http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm

My advise. Read the whole book because you will benefit from it. You will learn something new or will strenghten your current view.

All I do is quote scripture.  I think you don't like what the scripture is saying.

The meek will inherit te earth, not the wicked.

Quote from: lomarah on July 05, 2012, 12:05:25 PM
He has come to save the world - not destroy it.

Nevertheless I do think there ARE dark days ahead. Very dark. I agree with you there Molly.

True, the Bible surely writes about bad times.

But for who? Saint or sinner? Or both?
Couldn't it be the saints stay it this rotten world but recieve a seal of protection like Cain?
What's the job of the Saints. Hide? Or be active Apostles?

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 05, 2012, 12:14:29 PM

Quote from: lomarah on July 05, 2012, 12:05:25 PM
He has come to save the world - not destroy it.

Nevertheless I do think there ARE dark days ahead. Very dark. I agree with you there Molly.

True, the Bible surely writes about bad times.

But for who? Saint or sinner? Or both?
Couldn't it be the saints stay it this rotten world but recieve a seal of protection like Cain?
What's the job of the Saints. Hide? Or be active Apostles?

The end of the age is a special case.

After reading that verse you quoted from Malachi I realized something - I have no desire to tread down the wicked... I wish only to heal them and love them and see their hearts cleansed. Maybe it's a spiritual treading of the man of sin in each person?

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 05, 2012, 12:14:29 PM

Quote from: lomarah on July 05, 2012, 12:05:25 PM
He has come to save the world - not destroy it.

Nevertheless I do think there ARE dark days ahead. Very dark. I agree with you there Molly.

True, the Bible surely writes about bad times.

But for who? Saint or sinner? Or both?
Couldn't it be the saints stay it this rotten world but recieve a seal of protection like Cain?
What's the job of the Saints. Hide? Or be active Apostles?

Yes, exactly, the saints will shine brighter than ever before and draw people to the Light. :)

Quote from: lomarah on July 05, 2012, 12:18:20 PM
After reading that verse you quoted from Malachi I realized something - I have no desire to tread down the wicked... I wish only to heal them and love them and see their hearts cleansed. Maybe it's a spiritual treading of the man of sin in each person?

Maybe you haven't watched them kill enough babies, yet.

You have a point there lol...

Quote from: Molly on July 05, 2012, 12:12:27 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 05, 2012, 12:09:40 PM

QuoteMaybe you'd like to address the substance of what I had to say.

A honest answer?
- Substantial doctrinal/wishful thinking.
- (almost) void of Scriptual support.

The article shows several "raputure words" in another context. Using many verses + Greek words for you to verify. Jabcat's extensive quotes are actually a small summary.

In case you like L Ray Smith better. (be warned the article doesn't support your view)
http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm

My advise. Read the whole book because you will benefit from it. You will learn something new or will strenghten your current view.

All I do is quote scripture.  I think you don't like what the scripture is saying.

I think you don't understand what the Scripture is saying. I/we are supposed to read you posts and agree but you just ignore what others post. That's fine with me. Continue the way you like. But don't expect anything fruitful.

QuoteThe meek will inherit te earth, not the wicked.

Does that support rapture?
If anything the wicked will inherit the earth because the meek will be removed from it in your view.

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 05, 2012, 12:23:15 PM

Quote from: Molly on July 05, 2012, 12:12:27 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 05, 2012, 12:09:40 PM

QuoteMaybe you'd like to address the substance of what I had to say.

A honest answer?
- Substantial doctrinal/wishful thinking.
- (almost) void of Scriptual support.

The article shows several "raputure words" in another context. Using many verses + Greek words for you to verify. Jabcat's extensive quotes are actually a small summary.

In case you like L Ray Smith better. (be warned the article doesn't support your view)
http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm

My advise. Read the whole book because you will benefit from it. You will learn something new or will strenghten your current view.

All I do is quote scripture.  I think you don't like what the scripture is saying.

I think you don't understand what the Scripture is saying. I/we are supposed to read you posts and agree but you just ignore what others post. That's fine with me. Continue the way you like. But don't expect anything fruitful.

QuoteThe meek will inherit te earth, not the wicked.

Does that support rapture?
If anything the wicked will inherit the earth because the meek will be removed from it in your view.

I never said the saints wouldn't return with Christ.   Did Noah return to [dry] earth after the flood?

Quote from: lomarah on July 05, 2012, 12:19:51 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 05, 2012, 12:14:29 PM

Quote from: lomarah on July 05, 2012, 12:05:25 PM
He has come to save the world - not destroy it.

Nevertheless I do think there ARE dark days ahead. Very dark. I agree with you there Molly.

True, the Bible surely writes about bad times.

But for who? Saint or sinner? Or both?
Couldn't it be the saints stay it this rotten world but recieve a seal of protection like Cain?
What's the job of the Saints. Hide? Or be active Apostles?

Yes, exactly, the saints will shine brighter than ever before and draw people to the Light. :)

This is what the saints are going to do.


2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
--Joel 2


You can read the rest of the chapter for more.

Fire = purifying. Not fun, but good! :)

Quote from: Molly on July 05, 2012, 12:25:13 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 05, 2012, 12:23:15 PM

Quote from: Molly on July 05, 2012, 12:12:27 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 05, 2012, 12:09:40 PM

QuoteMaybe you'd like to address the substance of what I had to say.

A honest answer?
- Substantial doctrinal/wishful thinking.
- (almost) void of Scriptual support.

The article shows several "raputure words" in another context. Using many verses + Greek words for you to verify. Jabcat's extensive quotes are actually a small summary.

In case you like L Ray Smith better. (be warned the article doesn't support your view)
http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm

My advise. Read the whole book because you will benefit from it. You will learn something new or will strenghten your current view.

All I do is quote scripture.  I think you don't like what the scripture is saying.

I think you don't understand what the Scripture is saying. I/we are supposed to read you posts and agree but you just ignore what others post. That's fine with me. Continue the way you like. But don't expect anything fruitful.

QuoteThe meek will inherit te earth, not the wicked.

Does that support rapture?
If anything the wicked will inherit the earth because the meek will be removed from it in your view.

I never said the saints wouldn't return with Christ.   Did Noah return to [dry] earth after the flood?

Did Noach leave the earth?
No, he stayed in the same wet world as all others. The difference was/is that Noach was protected from harm (rain) by the Ark.

Yep, exactly.

Quote from: lomarah on July 05, 2012, 12:29:08 PM
Fire = purifying. Not fun, but good! :)

Seriously, I think that the wicked will be removed from the earth at the end of the age, removed as in dead.  I think they will have to wait until the second resurrection for more.


The godly will never be disturbed, but the wicked will be removed from the land.
Prov 10:30


Psalm 37:38 But all sinners will be destroyed; the future of the wicked will be cut off.


Surely God will bring you down to everlasting ruin: He will snatch you up and tear you from your tent; he will uproot you from the land of the living.
--Psa 52:5


"Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire," says the LORD Almighty. "Not a root or a branch will be left to them.  Mal 4:1

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 05, 2012, 12:33:47 PM

Quote from: Molly on July 05, 2012, 12:25:13 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 05, 2012, 12:23:15 PM

Quote from: Molly on July 05, 2012, 12:12:27 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 05, 2012, 12:09:40 PM

QuoteMaybe you'd like to address the substance of what I had to say.

A honest answer?
- Substantial doctrinal/wishful thinking.
- (almost) void of Scriptual support.

The article shows several "raputure words" in another context. Using many verses + Greek words for you to verify. Jabcat's extensive quotes are actually a small summary.

In case you like L Ray Smith better. (be warned the article doesn't support your view)
http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm

My advise. Read the whole book because you will benefit from it. You will learn something new or will strenghten your current view.

All I do is quote scripture.  I think you don't like what the scripture is saying.

I think you don't understand what the Scripture is saying. I/we are supposed to read you posts and agree but you just ignore what others post. That's fine with me. Continue the way you like. But don't expect anything fruitful.

QuoteThe meek will inherit te earth, not the wicked.

Does that support rapture?
If anything the wicked will inherit the earth because the meek will be removed from it in your view.

I never said the saints wouldn't return with Christ.   Did Noah return to [dry] earth after the flood?

Did Noach leave the earth?
No, he stayed in the same wet world as all others. The difference was/is that Noach was protected from harm (rain) by the Ark.

No he didn't stay in the same wet world as all the others.  He rose above it, in the ark.

The rest of them were dead.

I also think the wicked will perish, but I don't think we will be killing them. I think as the world grows darker the saints will grow brighter and draw all who will... and those who won't will perish.

Quote from: lomarah on July 05, 2012, 12:57:11 PM
I also think the wicked will perish, but I don't think we will be killing them. I think as the world grows darker the saints will grow brighter and draw all who will... and those who won't will perish.

Perish how?

Quote from: Molly on July 05, 2012, 12:40:27 PM

Quote from: lomarah on July 05, 2012, 12:29:08 PM
Fire = purifying. Not fun, but good! :)

Seriously, I think that the wicked will be removed from the earth at the end of the age, removed as in dead.  I think they will have to wait until the second resurrection for more.

Some/many will surely die. But all?
Jesus and His saints will rule the millenium Kingdom.
What will they rule if the only thing left are saints?
What is Jesus submitting if there are no wicked people on earth. The saints obviously submitted long ago.

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 05, 2012, 01:03:33 PM

Quote from: Molly on July 05, 2012, 12:40:27 PM

Quote from: lomarah on July 05, 2012, 12:29:08 PM
Fire = purifying. Not fun, but good! :)

Seriously, I think that the wicked will be removed from the earth at the end of the age, removed as in dead.  I think they will have to wait until the second resurrection for more.

Some/many will surely die. But all?
Jesus and His saints will rule the millenium Kingdom.
What will they rule if the only thing left are saints?
What is Jesus submitting if there are no wicked people on earth. The saints obviously submitted long ago.

There are very, very wicked people on this earth right now. They work for Satan. They will be gone.

But, I think there will be different groups of people who will be on a continuum.

It's all about the lottery.

We are not told much about the ages after this one.

The Bible is really about this age, and the ones leading up to it and contributing to it.

But, there's a lot of silence in both directions beyond that.

People will perish by major disasters, famines, etc.

WW Christ reigns in His people, in us. Not sure about physicaly reigning over others but I see what you're saying.

Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth.  Mat 5:5


"inherit"

G2816
κληρονομέω
klēronomeō
klay-ron-om-eh'-o
From G2818; to be an heir to (literally or figuratively): - be heir, (obtain by) inherit (-ance).

G2818
κληρονόμος
klēronomos
klay-ron-om'-os
From G2819 and the base of G3551 (in its original sense of partitioning, that is, [reflexively] getting by apportionment); a sharer by lot, that is, an inheritor (literally or figuratively); by implication a possessor: - heir.

Quote from: Molly on July 05, 2012, 01:08:32 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 05, 2012, 01:03:33 PM

Quote from: Molly on July 05, 2012, 12:40:27 PM

Quote from: lomarah on July 05, 2012, 12:29:08 PM
Fire = purifying. Not fun, but good! :)

Seriously, I think that the wicked will be removed from the earth at the end of the age, removed as in dead.  I think they will have to wait until the second resurrection for more.

Some/many will surely die. But all?
Jesus and His saints will rule the millenium Kingdom.
What will they rule if the only thing left are saints?
What is Jesus submitting if there are no wicked people on earth. The saints obviously submitted long ago.

There are very, very wicked people on this earth right now.

I agree with that Molly. Not just now but also in the past and future.

QuoteThey work for Satan. They will be gone.

But, I think there will be different groups of people who will be on a continuum.

It's all about the lottery.

We are not told much about the ages after this one.

Just looking at Revelation a lot will die. (if we view the earthquakes etc as literal events) My guess it will be many more than the employees of satan. Unless there are many millions, even billions, of them.

QuoteThe Bible is really about this age, and the ones leading up to it and contributing to it.

But, there's a lot of silence in both directions.

Depends.. Card wrote there is a certain pattern in Genesis that keeps repeating over and over. I haven't spotted it (yet); but from my posts you (should) know I'm a strong supporter of patterns. So if we can align a few ancient patterns, of say Moses' time, with our time we suddenly have lots of information.

And that's what I'm trying to promote concerning the (absence) of the rapture.
Find a pattern. Then find verses fitting in that pattern. And then zoom in with stacks of lexicons.
Or whatever order you like. But the pattern should always be leading.

:2cents:

QuoteJust looking at Revelation a lot will die. (if we view the earthquakes etc as literal events) My guess it will be many more than the employees of satan. Unless there are many millions, even billions, of them

A lot are dying now and will die in the great tribulation.   But this is before the first resurrection.
The wicked won't be resurrected in the first resurrection, in fact, only the dead in Christ will be resurrected, but others who don't believe in Christ now [don't know him yet] but are still righteous people could survive the tribulation I think.   There's a passage where he says he will honor the righteous of all nations.

QuoteI'm a strong supporter of patterns.

I think the story of Noah is such a good pattern that Jesus himself used it.

There are people, including those who call themselves Christians,  who are cast into the outer darkness when Jesus returns.  I think that means being somewhere other than where Christ is.  Those people survive the tribulation but are removed from the presence of Christ and ruled over by the saints.

I think we are all, more or less,  in the outer darkness, now, in this age.

But, we Christians have the light of a Comforter.

Quote from: Molly on July 05, 2012, 01:38:20 PM
There are people, including those who call themselves Christians,  who are cast into the outer darkness when Jesus returns.  I think that means being somewhere other than where Christ is.  Those people survive the tribulation but are removed from the presence of Christ and ruled over by the saints.

I think we are all, more or less,  in the outer darkness, now, in this age.

But, we Christians have the light of a Comforter.

The wedding parable: Bride, groom, guests. All in the same room. Outside a bunch of uninvited guests. They aren't in the room but are on the same planet. Only removed a few inches. The thickness of the door.

New Jerusalem is very much the same. Invited people inside. Others outside. Same planet.

Ark of Noach. People inside. People outside. All on the same planet.

Quote from: Molly on July 05, 2012, 01:29:45 PM

QuoteJust looking at Revelation a lot will die. (if we view the earthquakes etc as literal events) My guess it will be many more than the employees of satan. Unless there are many millions, even billions, of them

A lot are dying now and will die in the great tribulation.

True.

QuoteBut this is before the first resurrection. The wicked won't be resurrected in the first resurrection,

True.

Quotein fact, only the dead in Christ will be resurrected,

True.

Quotebut others who don't believe in Christ now [don't know him yet] but are still righteous people could survive the tribulation I think.

True. But imo also some ungodly survive. Or at least I can't find a verse that claims all ungodly wil be killed.

QuoteThere's a passage where he says he will honor the righteous of all nations.

When? After New Jerusalemd decended?

Quote

QuoteI'm a strong supporter of patterns.

I think the story of Noah is such a good pattern that Jesus himself used it.

True. But it won''t do any good in this discussion because you see it as rapture proof and I see it a sthe opposite.

All of the types in the ot are shadows of the spiritual and I think all have an aspect thats negative to christ. Moses was a great bible hero. Many people try to model themselves as moses het moses murdered a man and couldnt enter the promised land. Thats the opposite or negative factor. Dichotomy if you will. The flood killed bad people. It was water. God said He would never again destroy the earth with a flood. So to get around that He uses a technicality and uses a fire flood instead?  NO. The fire shows its the opposit/negative principle. The fire is to kill the man in men to purify to give life not take it away. Yes there are wicked people on the earth. They will all die as I/we die daily. His ministers are flames of fire. Literally killing people is the opposite of what Jesus did. We see that in the ot and in the law and that carries over into types in the nt but I believe that is seeing the gospel with the veiled min, to say He will come to literally kill. Jesus is the ultimate non aggressor. People need love to burn them.

Also I agree with most of what Jones said in those snips except the part about being separate. Eve came out of adam as I believe we the creation came out of jesus' side. Likewise Jesus came out of the father. We return to him as the two become one. He is already one with Father. I dont know what constitutes separate or distinct at that point. I dont think we can fathom that kind of unity. Its something foreign to our limited human individuality. Even if we still have separate personalities I cant even conceive of it as distinctness.

Don't forget--this is the end of the age.

We have had 2000 years of loving very bad people.

It mostly hasn't worked.  We are meant to see this, obviously, because this is what we have seen.

They are reprobate and perverse and they just keep getting worse.

When he returns, he will remove them, lock up Satan,  and the meek will inherit the earth.

:2c:

I'm thinking the Great Tribulation is for those who haven't seen real evil yet.

Do you really think the saints will be killing their enemies Molly? (I'm sincerely asking.)

Joel 2 describes a supernatural army which is the army of God coming to earth on the day of the Lord. 

Yes, I think they are literally removing the wicked through death.

There are other passages in Isaiah that describe Jesus coming out of Edom [the enemies of Israel] with his robes covered in blood.   This is the Messiah the Jews were expecting to see the first time.  There's a reason why they expected a warrior Messiah.  He is described in the Bible.


Who is this coming from Edom, from Bozrah, with his garments stained crimson? Who is this, robed in splendor, striding forward in the greatness of his strength? "It is I, speaking in righteousness, mighty to save."   Isa 63:1

Wouldn't that blood be His own?

Jesus is the same, yesterday, today and forever. And He calls His own to love His enemies, pray for those who persecute us, turn the other cheek. We will not be killing anyone Molly!

In eternity we will be killing time :P

"wouldn't that blood be his own?"

No.  It's the Lion of Judah coming to deal personally with the enemies of his people.



Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.

2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?

3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

--Isa 63

Apparently I need to brush up on my prophets lol.

But I know that we won't be killing our enemies. (Physically speaking.) They will perish, but not by our hands.

Gog and Magog siege New Jerusalem. It's protected by a  wall of fire. And later the armies are wiped out (almost) instantly by Jesus.

Hollywood or Bible? Think the latter but I'm to sleepy to know for sure.

Nite peepZzz

Quote from: redhotmagma on July 05, 2012, 04:02:39 PM
Also I agree with most of what Jones said in those snips except the part about being separate. Eve came out of adam as I believe we the creation came out of jesus' side. Likewise Jesus came out of the father. We return to him as the two become one. He is already one with Father. I dont know what constitutes separate or distinct at that point. I dont think we can fathom that kind of unity. Its something foreign to our limited human individuality. Even if we still have separate personalities I cant even conceive of it as distinctness.

Our God is both a Rock and a Cloud in Scripture.  He is our Father.  As rocks we retain form through changing environments.  I am not my circumstance though I'm in it.  As clouds we change to fill our environment, making the fragrance of Messiah evident in every place.  It seems these opposite characteristics are in the qualities of the Divine nature referred to with the descriptive titles Elohim and Yahweh.

Men of God are examples of identities held in common with other men while simultaneously different from other men. The closer we get to God the more unique we are; yet, we are at the same time increasingly identified with by other men.  Moses or Samuel, Paul or Jesus have qualities very distinct from all others, yet we are perceive something of ourselves in each.

These considerations were an answer to me some yeas ago when I asked God if we would lose our separate personalities as we came more into union with Him.  I must confess to experiences that somewhat overcame me, specially of our union with Him.  Still, I can interpret certain other conditions I endured as more of my sanctification, or distinctness from everything else that is, including God.

Whether an approving judgement, perhaps an immortal doves egg, or, whatever, a white stone with a new name is given to the Overcomer.  This, and Jesus' new name indicate advance in inwardly conscious identity and progressiveness of our identities outward display.

To add various ideas from myth or tradition, break the containers that make several Greek words distinct categories separate from one another, so as to mash all this together into one new category, putting another nonbiblical word over this to wrap it all up in...this is what is done with words like the English "Hell" or "Rapture."  These are perfect examples to which meanings in the Geek word blasphemeo is referring.  The harness is taken off specific Divine words that they may be employed together for another category altogether.  Being confined to the words God chose to make His revelation known is what the older apostle commands, "Have a pattern of sound words, which you hear of me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus." (2Tim 1¹³, CLV)

"The Rapture" by Bill Britton is available on the net.  It's not very long but seemed to have a kind of atomic power when sent out into the world.  How Bro Bill was slandered for it!  If no one finds a link and posts it I will try later.  I'm on another computer that doesn't have all my files and almost 3am is just not right when I'm trying to rise as master of insomnia.  I don't know what that will look like, but twitchiness and red bags under my eyes seem good for a start.

This book?
http://www.dimensionsoftruth.org/bill-britton/closer-look-at-rapture/

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 06, 2012, 09:33:03 AM
This book?
http://www.dimensionsoftruth.org/bill-britton/closer-look-at-rapture/

Interesting to see him say this; 


"At the second coming of Christ, the order is reversed. The physical body "rises" or ascends from the state of death, no matter whether it has become bones, dust, ashes, or food for the birds. Out of the state of death that physical body rises into a glorified state, like unto His "body of glory" (Philippians 3:21). Meanwhile, not leaving the presence of God, but descending with Jesus back into this visible earth realm, the conscious spirit once again is joined to the body which it left at death. Only in a much higher realm. (And "higher" does not mean somewhere up in the sky where airplanes fly and rain clouds drift about).

So Paul is comforting their hearts about the fate of their loved ones who are going on to be with the Lord. He is not saying to them "don't worry, we shall see them someday up in heaven". He is saying that they are coming back with Jesus for the great Day of the Lord and the events connected with that." - Britton


This part actually reminds me of the "catching up" in the way Jones talks about, along with "those who are alive and remain" rising to meet Him and "escorting" Him back.

He also talks about catching up as the following;


referencing Paul;  "In the body or out of the body? I do not know. I simply know that in the body or out of the body (God knows which) this man was caught up into paradise and heard sacred secrets which no human lips can repeat".

In this experience, it was not important to him to know whether or not his body went into that realm or place. Fourteen years later he is still suffering the afflictions of a mortal body. But he has been into that third heaven. He knows it is there. And if he has to lay his body down in death, he knows that it eventually has to come into that realm of glory also, by the resurrection power of Christ. Caught up." - Britton

Yep, enough ammo for an endless war :)

Quote from: jabcat on July 06, 2012, 09:52:02 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 06, 2012, 09:33:03 AM
This book?
http://www.dimensionsoftruth.org/bill-britton/closer-look-at-rapture/

Interesting to see him say this; 


"At the second coming of Christ, the order is reversed. The physical body "rises" or ascends from the state of death, no matter whether it has become bones, dust, ashes, or food for the birds. Out of the state of death that physical body rises into a glorified state, like unto His "body of glory" (Philippians 3:21). Meanwhile, not leaving the presence of God, but descending with Jesus back into this visible earth realm, the conscious spirit once again is joined to the body which it left at death. Only in a much higher realm. (And "higher" does not mean somewhere up in the sky where airplanes fly and rain clouds drift about).

So Paul is comforting their hearts about the fate of their loved ones who are going on to be with the Lord. He is not saying to them "don't worry, we shall see them someday up in heaven". He is saying that they are coming back with Jesus for the great Day of the Lord and the events connected with that." - Britton


This part actually reminds me of the "catching up" in the way Jones talks about, along with "those who are alive and remain" rising to meet Him and "escorting" Him back.

That passage 1Thess 4 says nothing about escorting him back at that time.  It says we will be forever with the Lord.  So, obviously, when he comes back, we will come back with him.   But at that time, at the harpazo, we are meeting him in the air, not on the road down the street.

When we look at the case of Phillip's harpazo, he disappears from one city and appears in another.  How is this possible?  It's like science fiction.  Does he enter into a different dimension?  Does he go through a wormhole?  Do time and space expand or collapse? 

But in the harpazo of 1 Thess 4, we are not meeting him in another city.  Lo, if they tell you I am here or there [a place on earth], DON'T BELIEVE THEM.    Paul says 'air' for lack of a better word to describe where we will meet him.  It's not of this earth, maybe not of this time or space.

I believe the harpazo and the parousia [as in the days of Noah, so shall the parousia of the Son of man be] are two different events.  First, the harpazo when only his people hear his voice and see him, then, at some later time, the parousia, when he returns with his saints and every eye shall see him and mourn as one mourns for his firstborn son.

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2012, 11:35:20 AM
That passage 1Thess 4 says nothing about escorting him back at that time.

It does Molly.
The meaning of the Greek word "apantesis" means escorting a guess to the place the escort cames from.

Anyway "says nothing about escorting him back" says nothing about the saints going to heaven. Does that mean we must conclude Jesus and His saints will just be hovering in the air?

Apantēsis (Strongs Greek 529) Is a technical term that refers specifically to the practice of sending a delegation outside the city walls and gates to receive a dignitary who was coming. This was the practice when a king and his army were returning from war. All the people would pour forth from the city gates and welcome them with pomp and circumstance. The people would meet them outside and then usher them back into the city with shouts of joy and acclamation.

W.E. Vines says "It is used in the papyri of a newly arriving magistrate. It seems that the special idea of the word was the official welcome of a newly arrived dignitary"

I would like to look at every instance this word is used in scripture (which is only 3 places):

Matthew 25:1 - Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

Matthew 25:6 -And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

Matthew 25:10 - And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

We can note three things about this word "meet" (apantesis)

1 - The bridegroom is going to the marriage feast.
2 - The virgins go out to meet him.
3 - They continue on to the marriage feast, the original destination.

The bridegroom certainly does not fetch them from where they are waiting and whisk them off to some far away location. Rather, while the foolish virgins are away buying more oil, the bridegroom comes and enters into the marriage feast with the five wise virgins. The foolish virgins return to their original location to find the door already shut.

Acts 28:15,16 - And from thence, when the brethren heard of us, they came to meet us as far as Appii forum, and The three taverns: whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage. And when we came to Rome, the centurion delivered the prisoners to the captain of the guard: but Paul was suffered to dwell by himself with a soldier that kept him.


Again, we note three things:
1 - Paul is traveling toward the city of Rome.
2 - The brethren meet him.
3 - Paul and the brethren continue on into Rome, the original destination.


I Thessalonians 4:16,17 - For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This does not say anything about the Lord returning, then reversing direction and heading back to Heaven.
Verse 17 says "And so shall we ever be with the Lord". We can't follow Christ back to Heaven and "Ever be with the Lord" when He isn't going to be there forever.
He's setting up His kingdom here on earth!

When the dignitary approached a city, the elders of the city would go out to meet him and escort him back into the city. In no case does the one being met reverse direction and return the way he came. On the contrary, it is the people meeting the dignitary who change direction.

Once again, we note three things:
1 - The Lord descends from heaven [toward Earth].
2 - After the dead rise first, we who are alive go to meet him in the air.
3 - We accompany the Lord back to Earth, which he was originally approaching


Based upon this (among other things I've already mentioned in the book), I am persuaded to believe that the return of Christ and the rapture of the church take place simultaneously.

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 06, 2012, 11:59:05 AM

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2012, 11:35:20 AM
That passage 1Thess 4 says nothing about escorting him back at that time.

It does Molly.
The meaning of the Greek word "apantesis" means escorting a guess to the place the escort cames from.

Anyway "says nothing about escorting him back" says nothing about the saints going to heaven. Does that mean we must conclude Jesus and His saints will just be hovering in the air?

I think you are reading your own meaning into that word.

G529
ἀπάντησις
apantēsis
ap-an'-tay-sis
From G528; a (friendly) encounter: - meet.


G528
ἀπαντάω
apantaō
ap-an-tah'-o
From G575 and a derivative of G473; to meet away, that is, encounter: - meet.


From two words
apo=off
anti=opposite

Meeting somewhere off from where we are now and opposite of where we are now. that is, away.  There is nothing in that word that implies returning or coming back or escorting or anything else.


What can we conclude they are doing in this other dimension, the 'air'?   I think we have to  look to other scripture to come to that conclusion.

Quote from: wwMatthew 25:10 - And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut

I think this is a very good scripture to describe what will happen at the meeting [apantesis] between the saints and Jesus in the air at the harpazo.

AND THE DOOR IS SHUT. 

No one is going anywhere.

No one else is getting in.

No one else will see them or what is going on in there.

  Something is now going to happen behind that closed door that sets these saints apart from all other people.

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2012, 12:11:57 PM
I think you are reading your own meaning into that word.

I think you ignore all the evidence.

Fistly it simply is the meaning of that word. Not since I wrote this message but for millenia.
Secondly by your reasoning it doesn't state the go to heaven. I states nothing of what happens after the meeting.

QuoteFrom two words
apo=off
anti=opposite

Correct

QuoteMeeting somewhere off from where we are now and opposite of where we are now.

Also agreed. The question is: What is the purpose of that meeting?

Quotethat is, away.

Also agreed.

QuoteThere is nothing in that word that implies returning or coming back or escorting or anything else

And that's where you are wrong. It's very meaning of that word.
Should  I say concept?



Say friends from Australia come visiting you. You have two options then.
You can let them take a cab from your local airport to your house.

Or you can "apantesis" them. Drive to the airport yourself. Wait for them with flowers and a big smile. And then drive them to your house telling them how glad you are they come visiting you.

You do the apantesis. Not your guests. You move "off" "opposite" of were the guests will stay. You move away from your house (the destination of the guests). That's the opposite direction of the that of your guests who are traveling toward your house.

I said nothing about 'heaven,' about them going to 'heaven,' or about them staying there.

Did I say those things?  NO.

I said there are two different events.

One where just the saints will see him, and meet with him, and, I believe going behind closed doors and celebrate their marriage to him.

And, one, at later time, when Jesus will return with his saints, the parousia.

Two different events, not simultaneous because there is of necessity a time behind the closed door where things take place, but one after the other.  And, nothing is said of them being simultaneous.

So maybe I will meet my friend at the airport, marry him, celebrate a honeymoon, and then return with him to the house.

Do they have chapels at airports?

Quote from: Molly on July 06, 2012, 12:19:48 PM

Quote from: wwMatthew 25:10 - And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut

I think this is a very good scripture to describe what will happen at the meeting [apantesis] between the saints and Jesus in the air at the harpazo.

Indeed a very good Scripture. But not for your view I fear....

a] 10 virgins in room/house
b] 5 foolish virgins leave to buy oil.
c] Meanwhile the 5 wise virgins apantēsis their groom.
d] The 5 foolish virgins return and knock on the door of the house they left.

Whose answering them? The groom that was apantēsis-ed.
So apperently the groom is on the exact same spot the 10 virgins were at the beginning of the parable. If apantēsis would mean "taken away" then nobody would have answered the door because both groom and the 5 wise virgins would be at the place the groom came from. And that was obviously not in the same room all 10 virgins waited for that same groom.
:2cents:

QuoteSomething is now going to happen behind that closed door that sets these saints apart from all other people.

True.

'knocking on the door' could mean they are standing back on earth [in another dimension] and calling out his name.  There will come a time when the door is shut and no more will be let in.  That time will be the harpazo.


Airport chapels offer haven to more faiths

ATLANTA — Ordained a United Methodist minister, the Rev. Chester Cook has now become a jack of all faiths.


Look.  There's even a minister.  You COULD get married at the airport. :winkgrin:

Quote from: reFORMer on July 06, 2012, 07:47:41 AM

Quote from: redhotmagma on July 05, 2012, 04:02:39 PM
Also I agree with most of what Jones said in those snips except the part about being separate. Eve came out of adam as I believe we the creation came out of jesus' side. Likewise Jesus came out of the father. We return to him as the two become one. He is already one with Father. I dont know what constitutes separate or distinct at that point. I dont think we can fathom that kind of unity. Its something foreign to our limited human individuality. Even if we still have separate personalities I cant even conceive of it as distinctness.

Our God is both a Rock and a Cloud in Scripture.  He is our Father.  As rocks we retain form through changing environments.  I am not my circumstance though I'm in it.  As clouds we change to fill our environment, making the fragrance of Messiah evident in every place.  It seems these opposite characteristics are in the qualities of the Divine nature referred to with the descriptive titles Elohim and Yahweh.

Men of God are examples of identities held in common with other men while simultaneously different from other men. The closer we get to God the more unique we are; yet, we are at the same time increasingly identified with by other men.  Moses or Samuel, Paul or Jesus have qualities very distinct from all others, yet we are perceive something of ourselves in each.

These considerations were an answer to me some yeas ago when I asked God if we would lose our separate personalities as we came more into union with Him.  I must confess to experiences that somewhat overcame me, specially of our union with Him.  Still, I can interpret certain other conditions I endured as more of my sanctification, or distinctness from everything else that is, including God.

Whether an approving judgement, perhaps an immortal doves egg, or, whatever, a white stone with a new name is given to the Overcomer.  This, and Jesus' new name indicate advance in inwardly conscious identity and progressiveness of our identities outward display.

I can agree with what youre saying. I think our individuality increasing is in him. By that I mean our new name is His name imo. Its an aspect of his nature. Beautiful, wonderful, righteous. I dont think "we" go away, its just that we get so caught up raptured if you will :laugh2: :rolllol: in the enfolding that our concept of individuality is radically altered. I think the type we can look to is the apostolic church. They had everything together they were one. Their view of family had changed. Yes the family was a single unit what they knew as life with their own homes amd own income and own personal needs wishes wants changed dramatically. (which btw i think God is calling us to this now)

They still had the flesh as a barrier a veil between them and its the in part time. When the fullness comes the oneness will be exponentially greater that our understanding of the concepts of one and individuality will be metamorphoo'd

The Rapture: What, When, Who and Why?

By John Henry
   




SCRIPTURE TEXTS
"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)

"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)

"Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain." (Isaiah 26:19-21)


WHAT IS THE RAPTURE?
Concisely put, the Rapture is the catching away to Heaven in the twinkling of an eye of all saved people of this Church Age by a mighty act of God, and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The definition of the word Rapture:

The word "Rapture" is not found in the English Bible. It is derived from the Latin verb, "raptus." The words "shall be caught up" in our text come from the Greek word "harpazo" which is rendered "raptus" in the Latin Bible. "Harpazo" and "raptus" are found in 1st Thessalonians 4:17. Again 1st Thessalonians 4:16-17 says:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1 Thess 4:16-17)

"Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain." (Isaiah 26:19-21)

Harpazo is found 13 times in the Greek Bible and is variously translated "pull," "pluck," "take by force," "catch," "catch away" and "catch up." It literally mean "to seize" or "snatch away" as a thief might snatch away a purse from a woman.


WHEN WILL THE RAPTURE OCCUR?
The Word of God says, "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man.... Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh." (Matt 24:35-36, 40-44; cf. Luke 12:37-40; 1 Thess 5:1-5)

No one knows when the Rapture will occur. However, there are a number of signs that will be prevalent as the time draws near. Among these signs will be: 1) simultaneous increases in false christs, wars, famines, pestilences, and earthquakes (Matt 24:4-7), 2) Christian persecution (Matt 24:9), 3) iniquity will be abounding (Matt 24:10-12; cf. 2 Tim 3:1, 1 Tim 4:1-2), 4) there will be gospel preaching "in all the world for a witness unto all nations" (Matt 24:14), 5) The Nation of Israel will be back in the Land (Matt 24:32; cf. Hos 9:10; Joel 1:6-7), 6) the world will be calling for "peace and safety" (1 Thess 5:3). The Bible says, "All these are the beginning of sorrows. ... when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors." (Matt 24:8, 33)

We also understand that the Rapture will take place prior to the Tribulation. Second Thessalonians 2 states:

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped.... And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed ..." (Thessalonians 2:1-4, 6-8)

This passage has a number of important points for us to consider:

First, we see that it is referring to the Rapture in that it is talking about, "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him."

Secondly, we understand that someone had been making the false claim that "the day of Christ" (the Tribulation) was "at hand" (present).

Third, "that day [the Tribulation] shall not come, except ... that man of sin [the Antichrist] be revealed."

Forthly, we are able to discern that "he who now letteth" is the Holy Spirit who dwells in all believers, and that "what withholdeth" is the collective body of all Church Age believers.

Now let's move to the Book of Revelation to tie all this together. In Revelation 4:1 we have a picture of the Rapture at the end of the Church Age which is symbolize by the seven churches of Asia in chapters 2 and 3 (cf. Rev 1:19). Then after that in Revelation 6:2 the Antichrist is seen on "a white horse ... [going] forth conquering, and to conquer." It is therefore apparent that the Antichrist will not be revealed until after all believers, in whom the Holy Spirit dwells, are removed from the Earth.


WHO WILL GO IN THE RAPTURE?
Every born again person since the establishment of the church till the time of the Rapture will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. That is to say all saved people of this Church Age will go in the Rapture.

The foundation of salvation is the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Our text says, "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him" (1 Thess 4:14). If one does not believe that Jesus died and rose again he will not go in the Rapture, and if he is alive when the Rapture occurs he will enter the Great Tribulation. On the other hand all that do believe that Jesus died and rose again, both the dead and the living, will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

1st Corinthians 15:51 says, "... We shall not all sleep, but we shall ALL be changed ..." The word "sleep" here means physically dead. When the Rapture occurs the believers that are still alive will be changed along with the dead in Christ and raptured with them to meet the Lord in the air.

Only Church Age believers will be Raptured. The reason we say that is this: The Tribulation is a continuation of the Old Testament Dispensation of Law (Dan 9:27). The Dispensation of Law ended and the Church Age began with the establishment of the New Testament Church by the Lord Jesus Christ. This New Testament Dispensation of Grace is like a "time out" between Old Testament times and Tribulation.

God through the Prophet Daniel described the end of the Tribulation and the beginning of the last dispensation, the Millennium, in these words:

"And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days." (Dan 12:11-13; cf. Job 19:25-27)

This passage clearly states that Daniel, an Old Testament saint, will not be resurrected until after the Tribulation.

Likewise, Hebrews 11 speaking of Old Testament saints says:

"And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect." (Heb 11:39-40)

There is only one way to be saved. Both Old and New Testament saints are saved by faith in the one and only Saviour, Jesus Christ. They looked forward to His coming while we look back to it. However, there is a dispensational difference in the timing of their resurrection and ours.

Church Age believers will be raptured to meet the Lord in the air, but Old Testament believers will be resurrected and see the Lord on the earth. Daniel will "stand in [his] lot at the end of the days" (Dan 12:11-13). "[Job knew] that [his] redeemer liveth, and that He [would] stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after [his] skin worms destroy [his] body, yet in [his] flesh [he will] see God." (Job 19:25-26)


WHY IS THE RAPTURE NECESSARY?
"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord." (1 Cor 15:51-58)

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences." (2 Cor 5:10-11)

"Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward." (2 John 8; cf. Rev 3:11)

"And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." (1 John 2:28 - 3:3)



(c) Copyright 2004 by John Henry.
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http://Prophecy.LandmarkBibleBaptist.net

False prophets
False doctrine
connection??

Not so fast.

If you go all the way back to the original post, he actually says July 25.  :laughing7:

Is it just me or is earth gravitational field weakening the last few days???

:Whistle:

Use a little more spikenard Ded :P

At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.
The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open.
The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.  53
They came out of the tombs after Jesus' resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.


Jesus said it was Finished.
There is a year a day in the year an hour in the day and a second in the hour
that Jesus died on the cross.
There was the last twinkling of an eye.

in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.
For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

The dead rose from tombs and like Jesus were seen through out Jerusalem.

We have all been changed. We were all reconciled to God.

Once again, we note three things:
1 - The Lord descends from the cross
2 - After the dead rise first, we who are alive are changed by the Holy Spirit.
3 - We accompany the Lord in the Holy Spirit in the Kingdom of God.(for ever)

Once again, we note three things:
1 - The Lord descends from heaven [toward Earth].
2 - After the dead rise first, we who are alive go to meet him in the air.
3 - We accompany the Lord back to Earth, which he was originally approaching

They have left the path of truth, claiming that the resurrection of the dead has already occurred; in this way, they have turned some people away from the faith.

--2 Tim 2:18

Quote from: Molly on July 25, 2012, 09:26:12 PM

They have left the path of truth, claiming that the resurrection of the dead has already occurred; in this way, they have turned some people away from the faith.

--2 Tim 2:18

and the tombs broke open.
The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.

This verse has always intrigued me.
This verse is not referring to the resurrection of the dead. 
The curtain tearing was prophesied in the Old Testament.
The crucifixion of Christ was prophesized in the Old Testament.
Was this group of people who were raised from the dead prophesized in the Old Testament?