aprrently the rapture will know be on july 24...

[Molly]

I'll just say, he will return and he will manifest in us, both.

And, the dead shall be raised first--incorruptible, and we shall be changed, atomos rhipe opthalmos!

[jabcat]

he will return and he will manifest in us, both.

And, the dead shall be raised first--incorruptible, and we shall be changed!

Amen! to that.  And then supper begins!

[Wakawakawaka]

yes but what abut people who claim to get dreams of the rapture.... are there anyone u know that gotten them before...and  later abandoned their views....

[Molly]

yes but what abut people who claim to get dreams of the rapture.... are there anyone u know that gotten them before...and  later abandoned their views....

In the last days,' God says, 'I will pour out my Spirit upon all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy. Your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams.

Acts 2:17

[Wakawakawaka]

but what about rapture dreams.....are they people whom had them and later abandoned their views

[jabcat]

I Googled a bit and didn't find any...not saying there are none, just that I didn't see any.

[Molly]

It says they will have dreams and visions.  It doesn't say they will be accurate.

But, if someone predicts rapture for 2011 and it happens in 2015, is that a close enough margin of error in a 2000 year window?

[Wakawakawaka]

but why do only the pre trib guys have these kinds of dreams

[Molly]

but why do only the pre trib guys have these kinds of dreams

Who says the tribulation hasn't started?

[Wakawakawaka]

huh good point

[anna274]

Hi Molly:
Your statement:  "It doesn't say they will be accurate" ...  really piqued my curiousity... I can't do any searching, etc. tonight, but will first thing in the morning.  thanks, anna

[Molly]

 "Know this, that in the last days perilous times will come."
--2 Tim 3:1

Anyone think these days qualify as 'perilous'?

"perilous"

1. Full of danger or risk.
2. Exposed to imminent risk of disaster or ruin.

[onlytruth]

Tribulation .....is just that ,a pressing down.how are diamonds formed? - with pressure.we all must be tested and tried just as Jesus was.I pray that God gives us the strength in each situation we must go through
Blessings :icon_king: :icon_king: :icon_king: :icon_king:

[Wakawakawaka]

but still what do non pre tribbers get dreams of the end times

[WhiteWings]

It says they will have dreams and visions.  It doesn't say they will be accurate.

But, if someone predicts rapture for 2011 and it happens in 2015, is that a close enough margin of error in a 2000 year window?

Not if s/he is a prophet. I think everyone receiving true dreams on a certain subject is a prophet on that certain subject.
If the person isn't a prophet the dreams have no more value than any other opinion based of calculations, denominations and all other sorts of methods to figure out a date.

[WhiteWings]

Purely looking at the Latin word (tribulum) our word tribulation is likely derived from, tribulation is an event that has nothing to do with saints. (unless they are standing on the sledge).
It doesn't pinpoint any date but I think we we should keep a very close eye on argicultural events because it's  a major part of the Biblical teachings.

[Molly]

It says they will have dreams and visions.  It doesn't say they will be accurate.

But, if someone predicts rapture for 2011 and it happens in 2015, is that a close enough margin of error in a 2000 year window?

Not if s/he is a prophet. I think everyone receiving true dreams on a certain subject is a prophet on that certain subject.
If the person isn't a prophet the dreams have no more value than any other opinion based of calculations, denominations and all other sorts of methods to figure out a date.

No one said they had value, except as an indicator of end times.

[WhiteWings]

If they are indicators they have value.
People have seen indicators for two millenia.
Sure eventually someone will be right.

[Molly]

Maybe it's me, but it seems to have really picked up in frequency these days, moreso than I ever remember in the past.

See youtube.  Everyone and his great aunt is on there telling their dreams and visions.

[WhiteWings]

How many of those visions align?

[jabcat]

I think 2 different things are being discussed.  One, the high incidence of dreams and visions indicates end times.  Two, are there any that are accurate, and if so, how many/which ones?

[Molly]

A lot have been talking this past year about how the rapture is imminent.

Many have been talking about specific natural disasters that are to occur and many of those agree with each other also.

Most do not give specific dates, but just say 'soon.'

You can tell they have a feeling of urgency.

[WhiteWings]

I know James. But the question is: Can those things be seperate?

If God gives an end-time vision then the person recieving that vision is a prophet. Does God set dates with high accuracy? Or does He use dates with a 2000 year error margin?
I think by far the biggest problem with prophets is recognising one amoung many false prophets.
The OT writes about a few true prophets; but during the lifetime of those prophets many false ones lived.
Molly is right there are many movies on YouTube. Also many books, articles, etc etc.
Shall I post a thread about my Scrabble game with God? Would you just believe it? Why (not)?

One, the high incidence of dreams and visions indicates end times.  Two, are there any and/or how many are accurate?

If none is accurate then there were no prohetic dreams at all.
Or people recieving true visions started spicing up things a bit. (adding their own thoughts)

[lomarah]

Tribulation .....is just that ,a pressing down.how are diamonds formed? - with pressure.we all must be tested and tried just as Jesus was.I pray that God gives us the strength in each situation we must go through
Blessings :icon_king: :icon_king: :icon_king: :icon_king:

AMEN!

[Molly]

THE LATTER RAIN--GOD WILL POUR OUT HIS SPIRIT ON ALL FLESH
by Francis Frangipane



"All" Means All

The phrase "latter rain" can mean different things to different people. To its critics, it is a movement that promotes doctrinal heresy. To many others, however, the phrase "latter rain," though slightly antiquated, is a term used by the King James Bible to describe the final, worldwide outpouring of the Holy Spirit before Christ returns.

Although I do not personally use the term "latter rain," I do believe in this last great move of God. In fact, I have held this vision since 1970. Admittedly, my faith was tested during the 1970's, when many church leaders were predicting the end of the world. Frankly, not many actively believed there would be a great harvest during the seventies and eighties. However, in 1990, with the stunning collapse of Soviet communism, an accelerated era of worldwide evangelism truly began. Since then, the Holy Spirit has brought hundreds of millions into the Kingdom of God.

Thus, in spite of wars and other difficulties, my focus remains fixed on the great work of the Holy Spirit in these last days. The last great outpouring will not end until the Spirit of God has been poured out "upon all mankind" (Acts 2:17). "All" means all. It means God is serious about reaching Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, and other religions.

Indeed, the Lord is so passionate about the lost that He says He will "grant" undeniable "wonders in the sky above" and incontrovertible "signs on the earth" (Acts 2:19-20). I wholeheartedly believe that, during this last great move, we will see the true church united, many believers raised to Christ-like maturity, and a great harvest.

So, you decide: Is the doctrine of worldwide evangelism a heresy? Or is Christ-centered unity among believers a false doctrine? Is reaching for Christ-like purity and power a deception?

Remember, I am not saying life will get easy. The truth is, many already are dying for their faith. Yet, "those who sow in tears shall reap with joyful shouting" (Psalm 126). Jesus said the harvest was plentiful (Luke 10:2). And, I agree with those who warn of the spread of the apostate church; there is, indeed, deep darkness upon the earth. But it is in these very conditions that the Lord commands us to arise and be radiant with His glory. His promise is that nations shall come to our light and kings to the brightness of His rising (Isaiah 60:1-3). The end of the age is a time of both darkness and light (1 Thessalonians 5:4-5). We must see both.

The Bible and the Latter Rain

Still, the issue is not what I say about the latter rain or what the critics say, but what does the Bible teach? The phrase "latter rain" comes from several places in the Scriptures; the most prominent perhaps is from the book of James. Speaking of the Lord's return, the apostle writes:

"Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand" (James 5:7-8).

James is talking specifically about "the coming of the Lord." Many first century Christians expected the Lord to return in their lifetimes. They experienced the initial outpouring of the Spirit; they saw miracles, growth, and multiplication. Yet, still the Lord did not come. Thus, James encourages the church to "be patient," saying there is something yet to come for which God is waiting.

In this verse, the apostle frames all of church history metaphorically between two seasons of spiritual outpouring, which he calls the "early and latter rain." Agriculturally, it was understood that the early rains awakened the newly planted seeds and initiated the process of growth. Then, after several dry months, the latter rains came that revitalized the harvest and brought it to maturity (Deuteronomy 11:14; Joel 2:23; Zechariah 10:1).

You see, God had much more on His heart than the early Christians anticipated. The Church saw a limited outpouring that fell upon a smaller world. The truth was that both the world and the final outpouring is proving to be much larger.

Bible Scholars and the Latter Rain

It is important to note that a number of Bible scholars also support the idea of a second outpouring. Charles Wesley interpreted James 5:7, saying, "The husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit--which will recompense his labor and patience. Till he receives the former rain--immediately after sowing. And the latter--before the harvest." Wesley wrote, "the latter" rain came "before the harvest" (or the end of the age).

There are other commentaries written from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown on James 5:7. They explained: "The early rain fell at sowing time, about November or December; the latter rain, about March or April, to mature the grain for harvest. The latter rain that shall precede the coming spiritual harvest, will probably be another Pentecost-like effusion of the Holy Ghost."

This isn't Charismatic chaos! It's New Testament theology, and Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown are distinguished, time-tested scholars who wrote their Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible in 1871.

Plainly, we are to expect a special outpouring. This is not "manifest sons" doctrine nor "kingdom now" theology. This doesn't mean there aren't churches in all forms of apostasy; nations will still be judged at the end of the age. We are simply stating, according to the word of God, that between now and when Jesus Christ returns, there will be another great outpouring, and that we are in the beginning of that outpouring now.

Do Not Be Afraid

My friends, the enemy has put a blockade of false warnings, fear, and accusation around one of the most powerful end time realities: the final work of the Holy Spirit to bring the gospel worldwide! I am not saying we should be naive or blind to all that is wrong in the church, but neither should we be blind to what God is doing.

To have faith for this outpouring is not heretical, even if it seems like heresy to those in unbelief. Therefore, do not fear being labeled a "heretic" when you speak of your vision. Pray for your nation with confidence, without intimidation, knowing that the reality of the latter rain is occurring even as we speak. Remember, hundreds of millions have come into the Kingdom of God over these last years--revival can occur in your nation as well! Consider the growth of the church in China, from ten million in 1974, to over 100 million today. We are in the time of outpouring, beloved, whether critics agree with it or not!

The world only sees the headlines from hell, yet the gospel of the Kingdom is advancing. God will not stop until "all nations" hear the gospel.

In truth, a time is coming when, as suddenly as the Soviet Union collapsed, so the stronghold of Islam will crumble as well. God has determined to reach the Muslim world, and once again, "wise men from the east" will come looking for Him who was born King of the Jews. Yes, even radicalized Muslims will look upon the Son of God and, in their new found freedom, they will love Christ most fervently. Indeed, the Lord shall even reveal Himself to key Islamic rulers--individuals whose influence will draw multitudes closer to Jesus Christ.

"Thus He will sprinkle many nations, kings will shut their mouths on account of Him; for what had not been told them they will see, and what they had not heard they will understand" (Isaiah 52:15).

Whether the breakthrough occurs in the immediate years, or tarries beyond a decade or more, an awakening is destined for the Muslim world. Just as the Lord has promised, He will pour out His Spirit upon all mankind (Acts 2:17).

Thus, the last, great outpouring shall reach all cultures of the world, and "...everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Acts 2:21).

http://www.identitynetwork.net/apps/articles/default.asp?articleid=26318&columnid=