Jumping right into the fray! :-)

[WhiteWings]

But, what I ask is you not dump your own baggage onto me...issues you have with yourself and with another member here who will remain nameless.  That isn't my deal.  Your comments towards me were unwarranted.

It was just a reply to post #6 Shawn.
It has nothing to do with another member who attacks me in PM and then runs of little a scared little puppy.

[shawn]

But, what I ask is you not dump your own baggage onto me...issues you have with yourself and with another member here who will remain nameless.  That isn't my deal.  Your comments towards me were unwarranted.

It was just a reply to post #6 Shawn.
It has nothing to do with another member who attacks me in PM and then runs of little a scared little puppy.

Fair enough, but it had that smell to it...as you made a reference to members who look down upon natural reasoning.  We both know who that was in reference to...the same person you just slammed in the above post.

WW I realize you are not a Christian, but there is a mutual respect thing that I feel you are lacking in this thread.  You don't have to be a Christian to understand the value of not judging another human beings walk with Christ.

[WhiteWings]

PS-sometimes the word balance is merely us trying to ride the fence of the natural and the spiritual.  I don't want balance if it means using my natural mind to reason out God.

Obviously we have a very different view on things.
Quite often I read things on this forum that make the think: Is this guy really a Christian? He spends half his post ridiculing the Bible, explaining it away to promote his own views?

(Gen 3:3) but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, Ye shall not eat of it, nor shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

So, you are questioning my Christianity, and I am ridiculing the Bible?  Not sure where you are getting that, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion.  I would love to know what makes you believe I am ridiculing the Bible?

That's simple to answer Shawn.
For me a verse has a both a carnal and spiritual component.
If someone says "I don't understand it" that fine with me . Nothing wrong with being honest about that.
But if some literal discussion is going on; for example about the meaning of a certain word and somebody start to promote a spiritaul application I have no problem with that. But if that same person starts to look down (right expression?) of the litearal stuff then my thoughts are that person is ridiculing the claiming it's inferior to his of spiritual take on that verse.

Note: I have zero spiritual insight but I'm not in the slightest way traying say the spiritual components doesn't exist.

I get that ................. I think you are more spiritual than you  let on WW  :icon_flower:

Rose, knowing that Russian is a language doesn't equal speaking Russian :winkgrin:

[WhiteWings]

But, what I ask is you not dump your own baggage onto me...issues you have with yourself and with another member here who will remain nameless.  That isn't my deal.  Your comments towards me were unwarranted.

It was just a reply to post #6 Shawn.
It has nothing to do with another member who attacks me in PM and then runs of little a scared little puppy.

Fair enough, but it had that smell to it...as you made a reference to members who look down upon natural reasoning.  We both know who that was in reference to...the same person you just slammed in the above post.

Yes. But don't understand that as rejecting everyone with a spiritual opinion because there are several on this forum who combine strong spiritual and literal knowledge. That's the only way to go imo. And I very much repect that.
If I had the choice I would chose that path.

WW I realize you are not a Christian, but there is a mutual respect thing that I feel you are lacking in this thread.  You don't have to be a Christian to understand the value of not judging another human beings walk with Christ.

I always repected this forum. I search hours for articles that possibly could (partly) answer questions of other people. I think you can't even find one post that disrespects Christianity. In fact I find it truely facinating. True,  can't get along with everybody.

You know it really puzzles me. I'm feel totally empty inside. I'm totally clueless when people say things like "God spoke to me"
But when reading a typical ET post or some other post that feels totally wrong to me suddenly I feel a lot of drive for frontal assaults. Which I never did out of repect of the forum rules. But I guess I've been direct and confronting quite often.
Posts like #6 triggers that drive....

:friendstu:

[rosered]

What makes us a Christian, White wings ???   or more so a "good Christian " ?

A lot of things Rosey.
I guess part of the ultimate aim is to see a many spiritual levels.
It's just that I don't believe someone has trustworthy spiritual inside if s/he seems allmost scared of literal verses. As if they are infectious.
The written word is the Foundation of Christianity. Foundations are "ugly" but strong and useful. The spiritual house build on it is beautiful I guess.
Would you like to live in a beautiful house without a foundation? Wouldn't you be scared it falls down at the first breeze?

  Well   lol , my  literal house has a falling foundation on the  north east side ,  though I still live in it , we hope to get it fixed one day  soon , as it sinks  to a lower place  in the earth and strains  the rest of the house  :icon_flower:

   used green wood 20 years ago , seasoned wood  would have served  for many a years past our natural lives , but  low    we could not afford  the seasoned  and treated wood at the time and now , it must be redone  right this time or loose the whole house 
sometimes I feel like we should have set a match  to it and had a giant  weiner  roast  :laughing7:
  too much put in  to turn back now  :icon_flower:



and I sure can see this in the natural  and compare it to spiritual  concepts

[jabcat]

Hi Shawn.  Hoping to stay out of the other stuff.  But in regards to your 'balance' comment;

Certainly God works with whatever amount of light we have.  For some reason, He apparently limited that for over 1500 years.  He can use the KJV.  But just observe the prevalence of the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment that was fostered during that era, and compare that to Gary's statement of "hell leaving the Bible" to get just a tiny glimpse of the importance of translations, cross-referencing, etc.  i.e., getting as close as we can to God's original breathed words.

I wasn't talking about straddling the fence.  IMO, attempting to seek the "whole counsel" is a good thing (granted, I'm far from attaining it).  Secondly though, sometimes I do have a thought or revelation, and then swing so far in that direction that I may lose sight of other important things.  As far as balance in this particular discussion;

Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.  2 Timothy 2:15

Blessings in your way.

[rosered]

 
  weel geez WW
:dontknow:

I just read post #6  and  Shawn polietly asked that no man be offended ??
  and what is wrong with a  man being secure in His faith in God ??????

I think you got offended , as if your  works and effort dont count maybe ?

  well you both have great things to say and share  :HeartThrob:  helps me out 
I love Tentmaker   for this reason    , there is depths here that is never found at other places
  the main thing is do not give up on one another     love you all  :HeartThrob:

[shawn]

I'm glad you have respect for those who respect the natural and the spiritual elements to the Bible.  I believe both have their purpose.  My intention isn't to belittle anyones views as I believe the way we see the Bible is a reflection about our walk...where are at in the now.

If you believe there is one correct translation, and if we pick the wrong one then God can't work with that translation...you are certainly entitled to that opinion.  And my opinion wasn't stated to elicit some sort of visceral response from anyone.  I just believe the Bible is the Bible...and God is God...He can work with any version I choose to read.  I was given the truth about ET when I was a child without ever reading the Bible for myself.  It was man that told me I was wrong, and the "devil was trying to deceive me".  That can throw a monkey wrench in some peoples paradigms about spiritual understanding.

I don't expect us to agree on most things WW.  But, I hope we can discuss with love and respect.

As for feelings of emptiness...I'm sorry you feel this way.  But, I believe you are here for a reason.  Suffering, seeking and even doubt have purpose.

[rosered]

Hi Shawn.  Hoping to stay out of the other stuff.  But in regards to your 'balance' comment;

first of all, I'll take it that you weren't suggesting I straddle the fence.   IMO, attempting to seek the "whole counsel" is a good thing (I'm far from it).  Secondly though, sometimes I do have a thought or revelation, and then swing so far in that direction that I may lose sight of other important things.  As far as balance in this particular discussion;

Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.  2 Timothy 2:15

Blessings in your way.

totally  can see this too !!  :thumbsup:  still learning and still trying too 
  I am thankful for you all !!!  :HeartThrob:

[shawn]

  weel geez WW
:dontknow:

I just read post #6  and  Shawn polietly asked that no man be offended ??
  and what is wrong with a  man being secure in His faith in God ??????

I think you got offended , as if your  works and effort dont count maybe ?

  well you both have great things to say and share  :HeartThrob:  helps me out 
I love Tentmaker   for this reason    , there is depths here that is never found at other places
  the main thing is do not give up on one another     love you all  :HeartThrob:

I agree.  I have gotten much out of WWs research over the last couple years.  We might come to different conclusions on many spiritual subjects, but isn't that what makes the world go around?

[WhiteWings]

What makes us a Christian, White wings ???   or more so a "good Christian " ?

A lot of things Rosey.
I guess part of the ultimate aim is to see a many spiritual levels.
It's just that I don't believe someone has trustworthy spiritual inside if s/he seems allmost scared of literal verses. As if they are infectious.
The written word is the Foundation of Christianity. Foundations are "ugly" but strong and useful. The spiritual house build on it is beautiful I guess.
Would you like to live in a beautiful house without a foundation? Wouldn't you be scared it falls down at the first breeze?

  Well   lol , my  literal house has a falling foundation on the  north east side ,  though I still live in it , we hope to get it fixed one day  soon , as it sinks  to a lower place  in the earth and strains  the rest of the house  :icon_flower:

   used green wood 20 years ago , seasoned wood  would have served  for many a years past our natural lives , but  low    we could not afford  the seasoned  and treated wood at the time and now , it must be redone  right this time or loose the whole house 
sometimes I feel like we should have set a match  to it and had a giant  weiner  roast  :laughing7:
  too much put in  to turn back now  :icon_flower:



and I sure can see this in the natural  and compare it to spiritual  concepts

Green wood is living wood, that good! It keeps growing and after 10 years you can build a new floor under your cellar :winkgrin:
Here wooden house are very rare. Difficult to get building permist for it and insuring it is hard too.
Use Gopher wood next time....

Dig a few holes under the foundation. Fill the bottom with concrete. Let it dry. Put some car jacks in the holes and jack up the house.
Leave the jacks and fill the holes with concrete. Use some lintels if possible. Cheap, quick and easy.

[rosered]

I'm glad you have respect for those who respect the natural and the spiritual elements to the Bible.  I believe both have their purpose.  My intention isn't to belittle anyones views as I believe the way we see the Bible is a reflection about our walk...where are at in the now.

If you believe there is one correct translation, and if we pick the wrong one then God can't work with that translation...you are certainly entitled to that opinion.  And my opinion wasn't stated to elicit some sort of visceral response from anyone.  I just believe the Bible is the Bible...and God is God...He can work with any version I choose to read.  I was given the truth about ET when I was a child without ever reading the Bible for myself.  It was man that told me I was wrong, and the "devil was trying to deceive me".  That can throw a monkey wrench in some peoples paradigms about spiritual understanding.

I don't expect us to agree on most things WW.  But, I hope we can discuss with love and respect.

As for feelings of emptiness...I'm sorry you feel this way.  But, I believe you are here for a reason.  Suffering, seeking and even doubt have purpose.

ditto !  :thumbsup:   

[rosered]

  weel geez WW
:dontknow:

I just read post #6  and  Shawn polietly asked that no man be offended ??
  and what is wrong with a  man being secure in His faith in God ??????

I think you got offended , as if your  works and effort dont count maybe ?

  well you both have great things to say and share  :HeartThrob:  helps me out 
I love Tentmaker   for this reason    , there is depths here that is never found at other places
  the main thing is do not give up on one another     love you all  :HeartThrob:

I agree.  I have gotten much out of WWs research over the last couple years.  We might come to different conclusions on many spiritual subjects, but isn't that what makes the world go around?

too this I say Amen !!  :HeartThrob: let it be so  :cloud9:

[jabcat]

As for feelings of emptiness...I'm sorry you feel this way.  But, I believe you are here for a reason.  Suffering, seeking and even doubt have purpose.

Amen.

[rosered]

What makes us a Christian, White wings ???   or more so a "good Christian " ?

A lot of things Rosey.
I guess part of the ultimate aim is to see a many spiritual levels.
It's just that I don't believe someone has trustworthy spiritual inside if s/he seems allmost scared of literal verses. As if they are infectious.
The written word is the Foundation of Christianity. Foundations are "ugly" but strong and useful. The spiritual house build on it is beautiful I guess.
Would you like to live in a beautiful house without a foundation? Wouldn't you be scared it falls down at the first breeze?

  Well   lol , my  literal house has a falling foundation on the  north east side ,  though I still live in it , we hope to get it fixed one day  soon , as it sinks  to a lower place  in the earth and strains  the rest of the house  :icon_flower:

   used green wood 20 years ago , seasoned wood  would have served  for many a years past our natural lives , but  low    we could not afford  the seasoned  and treated wood at the time and now , it must be redone  right this time or loose the whole house 
sometimes I feel like we should have set a match  to it and had a giant  weiner  roast  :laughing7:
  too much put in  to turn back now  :icon_flower:



and I sure can see this in the natural  and compare it to spiritual  concepts

Green wood is living wood, that good! It keeps growing and after 10 years you can build a new floor under your cellar :winkgrin:
Here wooden house are very rare. Difficult to get building permist for it and insuring it is hard too.
Use Gopher wood next time....

Dig a few holes under the foundation. Fill the bottom with concrete. Let it dry. Put some car jacks in the holes and jack up the house.
Leave the jacks and fill the holes with concrete. Use some lintels if possible. Cheap, quick and easy.

Thank you so much for this advice ,   we are   doing something very simular to this  right now Tony ! love to have a cellar , but counting the costs ,  we are not able to , gopher wood   whats the price on that  wood these days ? and where is that found ?

  we need a good floating  wood , here  more rain than ever  69 inches in 2011 !!  :mshock:

[rosered]

As for feelings of emptiness...I'm sorry you feel this way.  But, I believe you are here for a reason.  Suffering, seeking and even doubt have purpose.

Amen.

ditto    to this as well , keep praying for one another ...   your being prayed for WW ! KNOW THAT please  :HeartThrob:   

[shawn]

Hi Shawn.  Hoping to stay out of the other stuff.  But in regards to your 'balance' comment;

first of all, I'll take it that you weren't suggesting I straddle the fence.   IMO, attempting to seek the "whole counsel" is a good thing (I'm far from it).  Secondly though, sometimes I do have a thought or revelation, and then swing so far in that direction that I may lose sight of other important things.  As far as balance in this particular discussion;

Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.  2 Timothy 2:15

Blessings in your way.

I was saying we straddle many spiritual fences...faith/fear...law/grace...spiritual/natural.  We all have to suffer through that.  I don't believe you are any different.  But, sometimes what appears to be balance is us not being able to decide which side of the fence we will fall.  Many of us understand what Paul is saying in Romans 7 and 8 but then depress over our failures.  Or we know Jesus is the perfector of our faith yet we still have to pick the right study material to help Jesus out.  We know that we can't figure out the Bible with natural eyes, God speaks to us personally but then we fret the first time we don't understand how a passage relates to what he has shown us.  I certainly wasn't judging your walk, merely making a comment about the human condition/faith and our growth within our faith.

As for studying, I'm not sure why everytime these subjects come up there are always people who misunderstand what is being said.  Of course you should study the Bible.  But, my faith ISNT in the translation, or my ability to reason God out through the proper translation.  My faith is in God using what is in front of me to further me.  It's an exercise in faith.  For me (and this is just for me), when I worry too much about the translation, my cross references, the greek words and what not...I am relying on me...not Christ for proper understanding.  I don't think this is an issue for everyone.  But, it's an issue for me.  I am too easily ensnared by ego, and worshipping my own mind as a god.  Today, I seek peace and I know understanding will follow.  Today, I don't have to understand everything to have faith.  My faith today isn't shaken by my understanding. 

[WhiteWings]

I'm glad you have respect for those who respect the natural and the spiritual elements to the Bible.  I believe both have their purpose.  My intention isn't to belittle anyones views as I believe the way we see the Bible is a reflection about our walk...where are at in the now.

If you believe there is one correct translation,

I think per defenition translations can never be correct. It's often hard to translate a (word) joke between two modern western languages. Greek-English is impossible. Hebrew is far worse. It has so much hidden twists...
I think there are better a worse translations. I have my idea's about the best translations. But still I use several translations plus lexicons because I don't fully trust any of them.

and if we pick the wrong one then God can't work with that translation...you are certainly entitled to that opinion.

That's not my opionion. There are many shades of gray between black and white. I think we must honestly seek the lightest shade of grey. And even even if I had the perfect Bible my understanding most certainly is gray....

And my opinion wasn't stated to elicit some sort of visceral response from anyone.  I just believe the Bible is the Bible...and God is God...He can work with any version I choose to read.

That sounds a to let call it lazy approach. That was why I said the quran is also a translation. I'm not saying you have to own 200+ translations (like Gary) but some drive to find something good is required. With the many free electronic versions it hasn't to cost a cent.

I was given the truth about ET when I was a child without ever reading the Bible for myself.  It was man that told me I was wrong, and the "devil was trying to deceive me".  That can throw a monkey wrench in some peoples paradigms about spiritual understanding.

I don't expect us to agree on most things WW.  But, I hope we can discuss with love and respect.

I said my thing Shawn.
I'm sure you and everyone understood my point very well. That's enough fighting for today :winkgrin:

As for feelings of emptiness...I'm sorry you feel this way.  But, I believe you are here for a reason.  Suffering, seeking and even doubt have purpose.

Don't feel sorry for me. Save it for people who are full of ET fear inside. I have a very good life. I'm not suffering at all. I sometime think about it. My only worries are if I should wear black or blue socks today. But my streched typing hand turn into a fist sometime....
As for the spiritual connection; you know the saying: You can't miss what you don't know. Suprise parties are the best parties.

[jabcat]

Shawn, agree with most or all of what you said in your last post, with the possible exception of the following.

As far as "I'm not sure why everytime these subjects come up there are always people who misunderstand what is being said", I'll address.  Certainly there are misunderstandings.  Sometimes though, in "these discussions", I don't believe the issue is that what is said is misunderstood.  Sometimes it's a response to what is actually said, how it's said. 

For instance, if someone says "I believe my relationship with Christ is the most important thing in my life", great, fantastic!  But that's often not what's said and where things are left in these "type" discussions.  I could explore and cite multiple specific examples, but for the sake of time and effort, I'll just say that I believe in these "type" discussions, things are often actually said that that the poster ends up clarifying and then saying some things differently than in their initial post - prior to it having been questioned. 

I know I've said things that when looking at it further, having someone else's input, I realize an adjustment needs to be made.  So discussion is a good thing.

[WhiteWings]

What makes us a Christian, White wings ???   or more so a "good Christian " ?

A lot of things Rosey.
I guess part of the ultimate aim is to see a many spiritual levels.
It's just that I don't believe someone has trustworthy spiritual inside if s/he seems almost scared of literal verses. As if they are infectious.
The written word is the Foundation of Christianity. Foundations are "ugly" but strong and useful. The spiritual house build on it is beautiful I guess.
Would you like to live in a beautiful house without a foundation? Wouldn't you be scared it falls down at the first breeze?

  Well   lol , my  literal house has a falling foundation on the  north east side ,  though I still live in it , we hope to get it fixed one day  soon , as it sinks  to a lower place  in the earth and strains  the rest of the house  :icon_flower:

   used green wood 20 years ago , seasoned wood  would have served  for many a years past our natural lives , but  low    we could not afford  the seasoned  and treated wood at the time and now , it must be redone  right this time or loose the whole house 
sometimes I feel like we should have set a match  to it and had a giant  weiner  roast  :laughing7:
  too much put in  to turn back now  :icon_flower:



and I sure can see this in the natural  and compare it to spiritual  concepts

Green wood is living wood, that good! It keeps growing and after 10 years you can build a new floor under your cellar :winkgrin:
Here wooden house are very rare. Difficult to get building permit for it and insuring it is hard too.
Use Gopher wood next time....

Dig a few holes under the foundation. Fill the bottom with concrete. Let it dry. Put some car jacks in the holes and jack up the house.
Leave the jacks and fill the holes with concrete. Use some lintels if possible. Cheap, quick and easy.

Thank you so much for this advice ,   we are   doing something very similar to this  right now Tony ! love to have a cellar , but counting the costs ,  we are not able to , gopher wood   whats the price on that  wood these days ? and where is that found ?

  we need a good floating  wood , here  more rain than ever  69 inches in 2011 !!  :mshock:

Gopher wood was just a joke. It was used for the Ark and nobody seems to know what it is. Likely pine/cedar.
It's always a trade-of. Oak doesn't even rot in 20-30 year unpainted but it costs an arm and leg. Or the wood used in waterworks. Very expensive and when you saw it sparks come of you saw blade because it "grinded pebbles" inside.
It all depends on the soil. In some parts of the Netherlands the foundation of a house requires several 30 meter poles (dunno what they are called in English) In other parts just dig a ditch of 1.5 meters deep fill with rubble. Dump a few wheelbarrows cement over it and it it last forever and strong enough to build a 2 floor stone house on it.

Cellars are tricky. Especially if the ground water level isn't below the bottom of the cellar. Read the Scriptures about the Ark  :winkgrin:
Best is to tar the outside walls of the cellar. That is how it was done in the past. (no idea how they did the bottom) And it worked very well. Or all concrete but that's something you likely can't do yourself.
May sound odd but cellars can start floating. (just like tunnels)

[Molly]

But, what I ask is you not dump your own baggage onto me...issues you have with yourself and with another member here who will remain nameless.  That isn't my deal.  Your comments towards me were unwarranted.

It was just a reply to post #6 Shawn.
It has nothing to do with another member who attacks me in PM and then runs of little a scared little puppy.

Fair enough, but it had that smell to it...as you made a reference to members who look down upon natural reasoning.  We both know who that was in reference to...the same person you just slammed in the above post.

Yes. But don't understand that as rejecting everyone with a spiritual opinion because there are several on this forum who combine strong spiritual and literal knowledge. That's the only way to go imo. And I very much repect that.
If I had the choice I would chose that path.

WW I realize you are not a Christian, but there is a mutual respect thing that I feel you are lacking in this thread.  You don't have to be a Christian to understand the value of not judging another human beings walk with Christ.

I always repected this forum. I search hours for articles that possibly could (partly) answer questions of other people. I think you can't even find one post that disrespects Christianity. In fact I find it truely facinating. True,  can't get along with everybody.

You know it really puzzles me. I'm feel totally empty inside. I'm totally clueless when people say things like "God spoke to me"
But when reading a typical ET post or some other post that feels totally wrong to me suddenly I feel a lot of drive for frontal assaults. Which I never did out of repect of the forum rules. But I guess I've been direct and confronting quite often.
Posts like #6 triggers that drive....

:friendstu:

I've seen that drive in you.  That's God talking to you, ww.

My  :2c:

[jabcat]

As far as "I'm not sure why everytime these subjects come up

P.S.  I think it also has to do with this medium. 

Someone may post a 10 word statement about something, that if we really sat down and talked over time, is actually a complicated 50 page belief system for them.   :soap:

[rosered]

What makes us a Christian, White wings ???   or more so a "good Christian " ?

A lot of things Rosey.
I guess part of the ultimate aim is to see a many spiritual levels.
It's just that I don't believe someone has trustworthy spiritual inside if s/he seems almost scared of literal verses. As if they are infectious.
The written word is the Foundation of Christianity. Foundations are "ugly" but strong and useful. The spiritual house build on it is beautiful I guess.
Would you like to live in a beautiful house without a foundation? Wouldn't you be scared it falls down at the first breeze?

  Well   lol , my  literal house has a falling foundation on the  north east side ,  though I still live in it , we hope to get it fixed one day  soon , as it sinks  to a lower place  in the earth and strains  the rest of the house  :icon_flower:

   used green wood 20 years ago , seasoned wood  would have served  for many a years past our natural lives , but  low    we could not afford  the seasoned  and treated wood at the time and now , it must be redone  right this time or loose the whole house 
sometimes I feel like we should have set a match  to it and had a giant  weiner  roast  :laughing7:
  too much put in  to turn back now  :icon_flower:



and I sure can see this in the natural  and compare it to spiritual  concepts

Green wood is living wood, that good! It keeps growing and after 10 years you can build a new floor under your cellar :winkgrin:
Here wooden house are very rare. Difficult to get building permit for it and insuring it is hard too.
Use Gopher wood next time....

Dig a few holes under the foundation. Fill the bottom with concrete. Let it dry. Put some car jacks in the holes and jack up the house.
Leave the jacks and fill the holes with concrete. Use some lintels if possible. Cheap, quick and easy.

Thank you so much for this advice ,   we are   doing something very similar to this  right now Tony ! love to have a cellar , but counting the costs ,  we are not able to , gopher wood   whats the price on that  wood these days ? and where is that found ?

  we need a good floating  wood , here  more rain than ever  69 inches in 2011 !!  :mshock:

Gopher wood was just a joke. It was used for the Ark and nobody seems to know what it is. Likely pine/cedar.
It's always a trade-of. Oak doesn't even rot in 20-30 year unpainted but it costs an arm and leg. Or the wood used in waterworks. Very expensive and when you saw it sparks come of you saw blade because it "grinded pebbles" inside.
It all depends on the soil. In some parts of the Netherlands the foundation of a house requires several 30 meter poles (dunno what they are called in English) In other parts just dig a ditch of 1.5 meters deep fill with rubble. Dump a few wheelbarrows cement over it and it it last forever and strong enough to build a 2 floor stone house on it.

Cellars are tricky. Especially if the ground water level isn't below the bottom of the cellar. Read the Scriptures about the Ark  :winkgrin:
Best is to tar the outside walls of the cellar. That is how it was done in the past. (no idea how they did the bottom) And it worked very well. Or all concrete but that's something you likely can't do yourself.
May sound odd but cellars can start floating. (just like tunnels)

LOL I know the gopher wood was a joke ,  i was being silly  ... ha ha  :laughing7: 

  playing along ....    but    :icon_flower:

[jabcat]

Might as well get this show on the road anf just right on into the fray.

Fray?  Fray?  Why would you say "fray"???   :rolllol:

[jabcat]

A gopher would do what exactly?   :happygrin: