Greetings all,
Might as well get this show on the road anf just right on into the fray. I'm (now) a retired RVer wintering in Albq and summering on Colorado's Front Range in the 8400' elevation. Meanwhile, I'm enjoying what I've always wanted to spend more time with, studying the Word of God. Anyway, here's a bit of opening thoughts and what has brought me me here:
I ran into this recently and in searching it o ut found it on your site; and need a little help understanding more of what it means; particularly, with regards to the phrase surrounding the word "(e)specially".
1Ti 4:10, For, for this we both labour and strive, because we have hoped in the living God, Who is the Saviour of all men, specially of the believing.
My preference has always been the (1885-6) version of the KJV (Bullinger's Companion Bible); however, in this case, since this is understandably confusing with regards to what I've always been taught and heard (early SBC background), I have checked other versions as well and am coming back with much the same results.
I tried looking up cross references for clarification and have only come up even more confused with other verses such as:
1Co 15:22, For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (AV)
When I was younger and, like a child, simply believed without question everything i was told and to just accept Jesus and I would be saved and that for all others regardless of whether they never heard the name of Jesus or if they refused His saving grace then all the rest of them are to suffer God's unforgiving and unending wrath burning forever in hell. Somehow that always seemed diametrically opposed to what the nature of God is supposed to be.
Which brings us to the question regarding all the different bibles and all the different versions; how do we know which one is correct, true and perfect and which are not? If there is, indeed, only one that can be truly blessed by The Almighty then what happens to all those other sincere believing Christians that adhere to the wrong bibles and versions?
Is it possible that if those that are misled and believe the wrong thing(s), because of their submissiveness and sincerity, can they, also, be saved even though they do not believe the same as we? Is it possible that we, instead, are the ones that are being deceived? Is this what is meant by:
Exo 33:19, And Jehovah said, I will make all My goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
For since God can read what is in a man's heart and know that if that man had known the truth and that he would have then believed and acted in accordance with God's will then would God not save that otherwise unsaved man even though he never even heard the name of Jesus?
Is God god enough to save whom He will beyond just those that hear the Gospel and believe in/on His Son, Jesus Christ for salvation? We are told that Jesus said that all power had been given Him; if this is so then is Jesus capable of saving whom He will or are His hands tied to only what we understand the Scriptures to say? Is it possible there is far more to this than our limited finite minds can grasp? The universe is endless, suppose there are, indeed, other worlds with other folds...?
Is it not also possible since it takes dust and God's breath (spirit) of life to create not only man but every living thing, beasts, fishes, birds, trees, grasses, everything living then are they, in fact, God's manifested witnesses of Himself of everything that ever has, is and ever will transpire and thus all life everywhere being everpresent in situ judgment of all mankind?
Thanks for listening,
Sky
Welcome Sky.
I appreciate the way you've started off. Good job.
Please be patient, open, ask God to show you His heart on these matters. Ask Him to show you. He'll show you everything that's His will to do right now (I'm still learning :). "If you need wisdom, ask our generous God, and he will give it to you. He will not rebuke you for asking." Js. 1:5
There are excellent responses and answers to all the questions you've asked. Hang on, keep seeking, and God will respond through some of the "especially" believers around here. :)
(My quick take on that one; Jesus is the Savior of the world (Jn. 4:42). Some are given faith to believe in this lifetime (the ecclesia, called out ones - the "especially" believers). But He's still the Savior of the rest of the world, because the rest will be drawn (helkou, literally "dragged") to Him - each in His own order. (I Cor 15:23)
Blessings.
:welcome: :newb: Sky
This was my welcome word. Next post will be my answer to your question.
(1Tim 4:10) For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we have hoped in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
Some people twist and turn until they "prove" (e)specially means only. I think that can be easily refuted.
(2Tim 4:13) The cloak, which I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest bring, and the books, especially the parchments.
Does the above verse mean that he must only bring the parchments?
Nope, it's about priority.
The blue words are the same in Greek. Thayer (and Strong) who was no Universalist gave the following defenition to the Greek word.
G3122
μάλιστα
malista
Thayer Definition:
1) especially, chiefly, most of all, above all
Part of Speech: adverbial superlative
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: neuter plural of the superlative of an apparently primary adverb mala (very)
Below all verses (I could find) using the word "malista"
(Acts 20:38) Sorrowing most of all for the words which he spake, that they should see his face no more. And they accompanied him unto the ship.
(Acts 25:26) Of whom I have no certain thing to write unto my lord. Wherefore I have brought him forth before you, and specially before thee, O king Agrippa, that, after examination had, I might have somewhat to write.
(Acts 26:3) Especially because I know thee to be expert in all customs and questions which are among the Jews: wherefore I beseech thee to hear me patiently.
(Gal 6:10) As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
(Phil 4:22) All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are of Caesar's household.
(1Tim 4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
(1Tim 5:8) But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
(1Tim 5:17) Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
(2Tim 4:13) The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.
(Titus 1:10) For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
(Phlm 1:16) Not now as a servant, but above a servant, a brother beloved, specially to me, but how much more unto thee, both in the flesh, and in the Lord?
(2Pet 2:10) But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
:2c:
kinda like saying, "oh those puppies are so pretty especially the black and white ones."
CHB
Exactly. At worst it means Jesus saves the black/white puppies first. (in fact imo that's exactly what the verse teaches)
Then if He got some time left He starts saving other colors.
Does that mean it's possible Jesus saves only part of the gray and brown puppies?
No. Simply because when Jesus starts saving grey and brown puppies He is acting according to (Father's) plan.
Both Father and Son would fail if they couldn't save the grey and brown puppies as planned.
Humans have the excuse running out of resources (time, money, space) when saving all those puppies.
The divine saving team doesn't have that excuse.....
In this verse: "The cloak, which I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest bring, and the books, especially the parchments."
the person brings back everything he can carry. If not everything can be carried the cloak and/or books will be left behind but most certainly not the parchments.
Great questions!
This is just my opinion so I hope I offend no one...
I don't believe it matters which version of the Bible you study. I don't believe it matters one bit how much cross referencing you do. I don't think it matters if you take this academic approach or that academic approach to the study of Scripture. When I was around 9 years old I had something placed in my heart, and that was this burning people in hell thing forever wasn't correct. I believe that was placed there by God. Academics, certain translations, pastoral interpretation, natural logic etc. only suppressed that voice in me for a season.
Today, it's all about relationship. My relationship with my Savior is where my confidence lies. I know my Savior personally. He has revealed parts of His nature to me. That effects what I see when I read any translation of the Bible. I don't always understand what I am reading, and I don't have to. I give that to God and He reveals the mystery to me in His timing. I live in that peace of relationship today. I try not to let my own natural reasoning or the reasoning of any man influence what God is trying to show me.
Great posts everyone !!! :icon_flower:
Shawn , that was just beautifiul :HeartThrob: well said :thumbsup:
Well said Shawn
No cutting or pasteing.
A true statement form the best version.
Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but just for the record, I believe it matters what we read. Think about the difference between deception and truth. We are affected by that, and can affect others. On the other hand, having a true and close relationship with Jesus is vital, with His Spirit leading, interpreting, cutting through any mistranslations or our own interpretations.
Balance.
Quote from: jabcat on February 06, 2012, 07:56:35 PM
Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but just for the record, I believe it matters what we read. Think about the difference between deception and truth. We are affected by that, and can affect others. On the other hand, having a true and close relationship with Jesus is vital, with His Spirit leading, interpreting, cutting through any mistranslations or our own interpretations.
Balance.
I agree it matters what we read (meaning we should read the Bible), but is our walk with Christ dependent upon having the proper translation? Does God leave our salvation and walk with Him up to something that can be easily and innocently "gotten wrong"? So, if I chose the NKJV or the Message, my relationship with God will be negatively or positively influenced by which one I choose? I just don't know if I could live in an anxious world like that. In that world God isn't in control of my salvation, and Christ isn't the perfector of my faith. In that world, I have to once again "get it right". Sorry, but I don't get anything right. I have proven that over and over again.
What God has shown me is that he will use whatever is in front of me to work on me. If I am reading from NKJV, NIV, or the Message...He is faithful to bless my desire to seek His face. Isn't that what this is all about? He honors my desire for relationship by using whatever is in front on me to reveal something about Himself to me. It could be the laughter of my children, it could be a word from a patient, or *gasp* it could be even the KJV translation of His Holy Scriptures. I believe He will meet me where I am and honor the desires of my heart. That is where my faith is...not in reading the "right" translation.
PS-sometimes the word balance is merely us trying to ride the fence of the natural and the spiritual. I don't want balance if it means using my natural mind to reason out God.
I agree the ''proper translation '' helps with a level of understanding given .. its like teaching a kindrgartener a new math solution or language ..... we try to learn though experiences and failures and trials and helping one another
If perfect love cast our fear ,, than let us love and trust God more in ''getting His Word '' right
Its the job of the Holy Spirit to teach us and none of us could fellowship without patience and sharing in the work assignments :icon_flower:
9.2 Corinthians 6:6
by purity, by knowledge, by patience, by kindness, by the Holy Spirit, by sincere love,
2 Corinthians 6:5-7 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 6 (Whole Chapter)
10.Galatians 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith,
Galatians 5:21-23 (in Context) Galatians 5 (Whole Chapter)
11.Ephesians 4:2
with all humility and gentleness, with patience, accepting one another in love,
Ephesians 4:1-3 (in Context) Ephesians 4 (Whole Chapter)
12.Colossians 1:11
May you be strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for all endurance and patience, with joy
Colossians 1:10-12 (in Context) Colossians 1 (Whole Chapter)
13.Colossians 3:12
[ The Christian Life ] Therefore, God's chosen ones, holy and loved, put on heartfelt compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience,
The Christain Holman Bible
Shawn thats the struggle right there !! glad you posted it
Quotethe word balance is merely us trying to ride the fence of the natural and the spiritual. I don't want balance if it means using my natural mind to reason out God.
an example went to a little country church many years ago and saw how they stuck together by one preacher , as many fell away from it , I included , felt the Lord released me from that
''mindset '' the flock scattered , went back by chance for a benefit as a brother / still a brother who believes in Jesus, had a death experience and come back to tell it , he was only 36 with a heart attack , I did not see anything had changed still the same stagnating message and little Spiritual growth in all them years!!!!! :mshock: left brokenhearted again , I still pray for them and do not judge them , but want good things for all the Body of Christ , but could not sit under that heavy loads of judgment , without life , it was unbearable .....wish we had a You -Tube video of it .. you would understand what I am trying so hard to say .............
Sometimes the work of the Holy Spirit is so personal and Spiritual growth comes by letting go of our ideas of what pleases God , we want to please God always but not sure what God wants from us always , and let the Spirit rule and reign freely the Spirit within you will let you know whats right and not sitting right within you as of God or not [praying for the Spirit of discernment ], it will flow like a river pure and clean and undefiled ... hard to share what is being done within us with others .. but you know its not of yourselves , its the Lords work ............ praise God and the GOOD Lord knows how to correct His own , thats for sure
Quote from: shawn on February 06, 2012, 05:17:55 PM
I don't believe it matters which version of the Bible you study.
Some like the quran translation.
Quote from: shawn on February 06, 2012, 08:42:26 PMPS-sometimes the word balance is merely us trying to ride the fence of the natural and the spiritual. I don't want balance if it means using my natural mind to reason out God.
Obviously we have a very different view on things.
Quite often I read things on this forum that make the think: Is this guy
really a Christian? He spends half his post ridiculing the Bible, explaining it away to promote his own views?
(Gen 3:3) but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, Ye shall not eat of it, nor shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2012, 10:24:50 PM
Quote from: shawn on February 06, 2012, 05:17:55 PM
I don't believe it matters which version of the Bible you study.
Some like the quran translation.
Your sarcasm is duly noted. I think that is where people begin to misunderstand my position. Do we truly believe Jesus Christ is the perfector of our faith? Or do we need to pick the right church, read the right translation, and listen to the right pastors? This is a faith issue...not a translation issue. Do I have faith in me to pick the "right things", or do I have faith in Jesus Christ to use whatever is in front of me to teach me? When I seek truth, I will seek them from the words of Christ, and his disciples...not Mohammad. I seek them from God's word. And I believe no matter which translation I use, God will bless my seeking. Seek and ye shall find.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2012, 10:32:41 PM
Quote from: shawn on February 06, 2012, 08:42:26 PMPS-sometimes the word balance is merely us trying to ride the fence of the natural and the spiritual. I don't want balance if it means using my natural mind to reason out God.
Obviously we have a very different view on things.
Quite often I read things on this forum that make the think: Is this guy really a Christian? He spends half his post ridiculing the Bible, explaining it away to promote his own views?
(Gen 3:3) but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, Ye shall not eat of it, nor shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
So, you are questioning my Christianity, and I am ridiculing the Bible? Not sure where you are getting that, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I would love to know what makes you believe I am ridiculing the Bible?
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2012, 10:32:41 PM
Quote from: shawn on February 06, 2012, 08:42:26 PMPS-sometimes the word balance is merely us trying to ride the fence of the natural and the spiritual. I don't want balance if it means using my natural mind to reason out God.
Obviously we have a very different view on things.
Quite often I read things on this forum that make the think: Is this guy really a Christian? He spends half his post ridiculing the Bible, explaining it away to promote his own views?
(Gen 3:3) but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, Ye shall not eat of it, nor shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
What makes us a Christian, White wings ??? or more so a ''good Christian '' ?
so many ways to Look at a passage in the Bible , and those do bear fruit good or evil to the eater
Pro 18:21 Death and life [are] in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.
Pro 15:4 A wholesome tongue [is] a tree of life: but perverseness therein [is] a breach in the spirit.
Your Not Shawn , ridiculing the Bible at all , it started a break with differnt translations
its the number one ''pick of the litter '' on divisive thows these days :mblush:ALL over the place
the natural mind as well as the natural realm , are always reasoning , trying to make some kind of sense of why life is so difficult
no one has a spiritual mind , lest God give it to them .. and than they have to try a communicte with carnal minds with that stuff !
Do I have a spiritual mind , I sure hope so , but unfortunatly
the cares of this life do choke out the Word of God at times !! this life is so hard even on a good day , its tough to just get though it .. now i WILL be quiet , said to much already :mblush:
Quote from: shawn on February 06, 2012, 10:39:28 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2012, 10:32:41 PM
Quote from: shawn on February 06, 2012, 08:42:26 PMPS-sometimes the word balance is merely us trying to ride the fence of the natural and the spiritual. I don't want balance if it means using my natural mind to reason out God.
Obviously we have a very different view on things.
Quite often I read things on this forum that make the think: Is this guy really a Christian? He spends half his post ridiculing the Bible, explaining it away to promote his own views?
(Gen 3:3) but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, Ye shall not eat of it, nor shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
So, you are questioning my Christianity, and I am ridiculing the Bible? Not sure where you are getting that, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I would love to know what makes you believe I am ridiculing the Bible?
That's simple to answer Shawn.
For me a verse has a both a carnal and spiritual component.
If someone says "I don't understand it" that fine with me . Nothing wrong with being honest about that.
But if some literal discussion is going on; for example about the meaning of a certain word and somebody start to promote a spiritaul application I have no problem with that. But if that same person starts to look down (right expression?) of the litearal stuff then my thoughts are that person is ridiculing the claiming it's inferior to his of spiritual take on that verse.
Note: I have zero spiritual insight but I'm not in the slightest way traying say the spiritual components doesn't exist.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2012, 10:56:08 PM
Quote from: shawn on February 06, 2012, 10:39:28 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2012, 10:32:41 PM
Quote from: shawn on February 06, 2012, 08:42:26 PMPS-sometimes the word balance is merely us trying to ride the fence of the natural and the spiritual. I don't want balance if it means using my natural mind to reason out God.
Obviously we have a very different view on things.
Quite often I read things on this forum that make the think: Is this guy really a Christian? He spends half his post ridiculing the Bible, explaining it away to promote his own views?
(Gen 3:3) but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, Ye shall not eat of it, nor shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
So, you are questioning my Christianity, and I am ridiculing the Bible? Not sure where you are getting that, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I would love to know what makes you believe I am ridiculing the Bible?
That's simple to answer Shawn.
For me a verse has a both a carnal and spiritual component.
If someone says "I don't understand it" that fine with me . Nothing wrong with being honest about that.
But if some literal discussion is going on; for example about the meaning of a certain word and somebody start to promote a spiritaul application I have no problem with that. But if that same person starts to look down (right expression?) of the litearal stuff then my thoughts are that person is ridiculing the claiming it's inferior to his of spiritual take on that verse.
Note: I have zero spiritual insight but I'm not in the slightest way traying say the spiritual components doesn't exist.
I get that ................. I think you are more spiritual than you let on WW :icon_flower:
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2012, 10:56:08 PM
Quote from: shawn on February 06, 2012, 10:39:28 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2012, 10:32:41 PM
Quote from: shawn on February 06, 2012, 08:42:26 PMPS-sometimes the word balance is merely us trying to ride the fence of the natural and the spiritual. I don't want balance if it means using my natural mind to reason out God.
Obviously we have a very different view on things.
Quite often I read things on this forum that make the think: Is this guy really a Christian? He spends half his post ridiculing the Bible, explaining it away to promote his own views?
(Gen 3:3) but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, Ye shall not eat of it, nor shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
So, you are questioning my Christianity, and I am ridiculing the Bible? Not sure where you are getting that, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I would love to know what makes you believe I am ridiculing the Bible?
That's simple to answer Shawn.
For me a verse has a both a carnal and spiritual component.
If someone says "I don't understand it" that fine with me . Nothing wrong with being honest about that.
But if some literal discussion is going on; for example about the meaning of a certain word and somebody start to promote a spiritaul application I have no problem with that. But if that same person starts to look down (right expression?) of the litearal stuff then my thoughts are that person is ridiculing the claiming it's inferior to his of spiritual take on that verse.
Note: I have zero spiritual insight but I'm not in the slightest way traying say the spiritual components doesn't exist.
Simple, yet you avoided the question. Are you questioning my Christianity and are you saying I am "ridiculing" the Bible?
Quote from: rosered on February 06, 2012, 10:41:48 PM
What makes us a Christian, White wings ??? or more so a "good Christian " ?
A lot of things Rosey.
I guess part of the ultimate aim is to see a many spiritual levels.
It's just that I don't believe someone has
trustworthy spiritual inside if s/he seems allmost scared of literal verses. As if they are infectious.
The written word is the Foundation of Christianity. Foundations are "ugly" but strong and useful. The spiritual house build on it is beautiful I guess.
Would you like to live in a beautiful house without a foundation? Wouldn't you be scared it falls down at the first breeze?
Quote from: shawn on February 06, 2012, 11:01:05 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2012, 10:56:08 PM
Quote from: shawn on February 06, 2012, 10:39:28 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2012, 10:32:41 PM
Quote from: shawn on February 06, 2012, 08:42:26 PMPS-sometimes the word balance is merely us trying to ride the fence of the natural and the spiritual. I don't want balance if it means using my natural mind to reason out God.
Obviously we have a very different view on things.
Quite often I read things on this forum that make the think: Is this guy really a Christian? He spends half his post ridiculing the Bible, explaining it away to promote his own views?
(Gen 3:3) but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, Ye shall not eat of it, nor shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
So, you are questioning my Christianity, and I am ridiculing the Bible? Not sure where you are getting that, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I would love to know what makes you believe I am ridiculing the Bible?
That's simple to answer Shawn.
For me a verse has a both a carnal and spiritual component.
If someone says "I don't understand it" that fine with me . Nothing wrong with being honest about that.
But if some literal discussion is going on; for example about the meaning of a certain word and somebody start to promote a spiritaul application I have no problem with that. But if that same person starts to look down (right expression?) of the litearal stuff then my thoughts are that person is ridiculing the claiming it's inferior to his of spiritual take on that verse.
Note: I have zero spiritual insight but I'm not in the slightest way traying say the spiritual components doesn't exist.
Simple, yet you avoided the question. Are you questioning my Christianity and are you saying I am "ridiculing" the Bible?
I didn't avoid the question. I just gave extra background. But I'll give a direct answer.
When you made your very first post on this forum you were more Christian than today because you reject the written words more and more.
That's my :2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2012, 10:56:08 PM
Quote from: shawn on February 06, 2012, 10:39:28 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2012, 10:32:41 PM
Quote from: shawn on February 06, 2012, 08:42:26 PMPS-sometimes the word balance is merely us trying to ride the fence of the natural and the spiritual. I don't want balance if it means using my natural mind to reason out God.
Obviously we have a very different view on things.
Quite often I read things on this forum that make the think: Is this guy really a Christian? He spends half his post ridiculing the Bible, explaining it away to promote his own views?
(Gen 3:3) but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, Ye shall not eat of it, nor shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
So, you are questioning my Christianity, and I am ridiculing the Bible? Not sure where you are getting that, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I would love to know what makes you believe I am ridiculing the Bible?
That's simple to answer Shawn.
For me a verse has a both a carnal and spiritual component.
If someone says "I don't understand it" that fine with me . Nothing wrong with being honest about that.
But if some literal discussion is going on; for example about the meaning of a certain word and somebody start to promote a spiritaul application I have no problem with that. But if that same person starts to look down (right expression?) of the litearal stuff then my thoughts are that person is ridiculing the claiming it's inferior to his of spiritual take on that verse.
Note: I have zero spiritual insight but I'm not in the slightest way traying say the spiritual components doesn't exist.
Of course there is a literal/natural element to the Bible. The question is about the value of applying natural to the spiritual. The value is that it brings death to many things within us. When we try to work God out with our natural minds, and reason out the Bible with natural thinking it births something, and it destroys something. It destroys us using our own minds and understanding as a god. It destroys the idol of the mind. It also births true faith. It indeed has a purpose and a plan. If you look at the Bible as just another literary work, and want to use reason to evaluate it...I highly encourage you to do so. Faith starts somewhere.
But, what I ask is you not dump your own baggage onto me...issues you have with yourself and with another member here who will remain nameless. That isn't my deal. Your comments towards me were unwarranted.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2012, 11:07:54 PM
Quote from: shawn on February 06, 2012, 11:01:05 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2012, 10:56:08 PM
Quote from: shawn on February 06, 2012, 10:39:28 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2012, 10:32:41 PM
Quote from: shawn on February 06, 2012, 08:42:26 PMPS-sometimes the word balance is merely us trying to ride the fence of the natural and the spiritual. I don't want balance if it means using my natural mind to reason out God.
Obviously we have a very different view on things.
Quite often I read things on this forum that make the think: Is this guy really a Christian? He spends half his post ridiculing the Bible, explaining it away to promote his own views?
(Gen 3:3) but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, Ye shall not eat of it, nor shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
So, you are questioning my Christianity, and I am ridiculing the Bible? Not sure where you are getting that, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I would love to know what makes you believe I am ridiculing the Bible?
That's simple to answer Shawn.
For me a verse has a both a carnal and spiritual component.
If someone says "I don't understand it" that fine with me . Nothing wrong with being honest about that.
But if some literal discussion is going on; for example about the meaning of a certain word and somebody start to promote a spiritaul application I have no problem with that. But if that same person starts to look down (right expression?) of the litearal stuff then my thoughts are that person is ridiculing the claiming it's inferior to his of spiritual take on that verse.
Note: I have zero spiritual insight but I'm not in the slightest way traying say the spiritual components doesn't exist.
Simple, yet you avoided the question. Are you questioning my Christianity and are you saying I am "ridiculing" the Bible?
I didn't avoid the question. I just gave extra background. But I'll give a direct answer.
When you made your very first post on this forum you were more Christian than today because you reject the written words more and more.
That's my :2c:
And like all opinions, I don't internalize them. I have a confidence in my relationship in Christ. But, if you define Christianity by using the natural mind to reason out God, then you are right I am less Christian now then when I came here.
Quote from: shawn on February 06, 2012, 11:08:45 PMBut, what I ask is you not dump your own baggage onto me...issues you have with yourself and with another member here who will remain nameless. That isn't my deal. Your comments towards me were unwarranted.
It was just a reply to post #6 Shawn.
It has nothing to do with another member who attacks me in PM and then runs of little a scared little puppy.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2012, 11:18:09 PM
Quote from: shawn on February 06, 2012, 11:08:45 PMBut, what I ask is you not dump your own baggage onto me...issues you have with yourself and with another member here who will remain nameless. That isn't my deal. Your comments towards me were unwarranted.
It was just a reply to post #6 Shawn.
It has nothing to do with another member who attacks me in PM and then runs of little a scared little puppy.
Fair enough, but it had that smell to it...as you made a reference to members who look down upon natural reasoning. We both know who that was in reference to...the same person you just slammed in the above post.
WW I realize you are not a Christian, but there is a mutual respect thing that I feel you are lacking in this thread. You don't have to be a Christian to understand the value of not judging another human beings walk with Christ.
Quote from: rosered on February 06, 2012, 10:58:48 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2012, 10:56:08 PM
Quote from: shawn on February 06, 2012, 10:39:28 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2012, 10:32:41 PM
Quote from: shawn on February 06, 2012, 08:42:26 PMPS-sometimes the word balance is merely us trying to ride the fence of the natural and the spiritual. I don't want balance if it means using my natural mind to reason out God.
Obviously we have a very different view on things.
Quite often I read things on this forum that make the think: Is this guy really a Christian? He spends half his post ridiculing the Bible, explaining it away to promote his own views?
(Gen 3:3) but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, Ye shall not eat of it, nor shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
So, you are questioning my Christianity, and I am ridiculing the Bible? Not sure where you are getting that, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I would love to know what makes you believe I am ridiculing the Bible?
That's simple to answer Shawn.
For me a verse has a both a carnal and spiritual component.
If someone says "I don't understand it" that fine with me . Nothing wrong with being honest about that.
But if some literal discussion is going on; for example about the meaning of a certain word and somebody start to promote a spiritaul application I have no problem with that. But if that same person starts to look down (right expression?) of the litearal stuff then my thoughts are that person is ridiculing the claiming it's inferior to his of spiritual take on that verse.
Note: I have zero spiritual insight but I'm not in the slightest way traying say the spiritual components doesn't exist.
I get that ................. I think you are more spiritual than you let on WW :icon_flower:
Rose, knowing that Russian is a language doesn't equal speaking Russian :winkgrin:
Quote from: shawn on February 06, 2012, 11:21:42 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2012, 11:18:09 PM
Quote from: shawn on February 06, 2012, 11:08:45 PMBut, what I ask is you not dump your own baggage onto me...issues you have with yourself and with another member here who will remain nameless. That isn't my deal. Your comments towards me were unwarranted.
It was just a reply to post #6 Shawn.
It has nothing to do with another member who attacks me in PM and then runs of little a scared little puppy.
Fair enough, but it had that smell to it...as you made a reference to members who look down upon natural reasoning. We both know who that was in reference to...the same person you just slammed in the above post.
Yes. But don't understand that as rejecting everyone with a spiritual opinion because there are several on this forum who combine strong spiritual
and literal knowledge. That's the only way to go imo. And I very much repect that.
If I had the choice I would chose that path.
QuoteWW I realize you are not a Christian, but there is a mutual respect thing that I feel you are lacking in this thread. You don't have to be a Christian to understand the value of not judging another human beings walk with Christ.
I always repected this forum. I search hours for articles that possibly could (partly) answer questions of other people. I think you can't even find one post that disrespects Christianity. In fact I find it truely facinating. True, can't get along with everybody.
You know it really puzzles me. I'm feel totally empty inside. I'm totally clueless when people say things like "God spoke to me"
But when reading a typical ET post or some other post that feels totally wrong to me suddenly I feel a lot of drive for frontal assaults. Which I never did out of repect of the forum rules. But I guess I've been direct and confronting quite often.
Posts like #6 triggers that drive....
:friendstu:
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2012, 11:05:05 PM
Quote from: rosered on February 06, 2012, 10:41:48 PM
What makes us a Christian, White wings ??? or more so a "good Christian " ?
A lot of things Rosey.
I guess part of the ultimate aim is to see a many spiritual levels.
It's just that I don't believe someone has trustworthy spiritual inside if s/he seems allmost scared of literal verses. As if they are infectious.
The written word is the Foundation of Christianity. Foundations are "ugly" but strong and useful. The spiritual house build on it is beautiful I guess.
Would you like to live in a beautiful house without a foundation? Wouldn't you be scared it falls down at the first breeze?
Well lol , my literal house has a falling foundation on the north east side , though I still live in it , we hope to get it fixed one day soon , as it sinks to a lower place in the earth and strains the rest of the house :icon_flower:
used green wood 20 years ago , seasoned wood would have served for many a years past our natural lives , but low we could not afford the seasoned and treated wood at the time and now , it must be redone right this time or loose the whole house
sometimes I feel like we should have set a match to it and had a giant weiner roast :laughing7:
too much put in to turn back now :icon_flower:
and I sure can see this in the natural and compare it to spiritual concepts
Hi Shawn. Hoping to stay out of the other stuff. But in regards to your 'balance' comment;
Certainly God works with whatever amount of light we have. For some reason, He apparently limited that for over 1500 years. He can use the KJV. But just observe the prevalence of the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment that was fostered during that era, and compare that to Gary's statement of "hell leaving the Bible" to get just a tiny glimpse of the importance of translations, cross-referencing, etc. i.e., getting as close as we can to God's original breathed words.
I wasn't talking about straddling the fence. IMO, attempting to seek the "whole counsel" is a good thing (granted, I'm far from attaining it). Secondly though, sometimes I do have a thought or revelation, and then swing so far in that direction that I may lose sight of other important things. As far as balance in this particular discussion;
Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
Blessings in your way.
weel geez WW
:dontknow:
I just read post #6 and Shawn polietly asked that no man be offended ??
and what is wrong with a man being secure in His faith in God ??????
I think you got offended , as if your works and effort dont count maybe ?
well you both have great things to say and share :HeartThrob: helps me out
I love Tentmaker for this reason , there is depths here that is never found at other places
the main thing is do not give up on one another love you all :HeartThrob:
I'm glad you have respect for those who respect the natural and the spiritual elements to the Bible. I believe both have their purpose. My intention isn't to belittle anyones views as I believe the way we see the Bible is a reflection about our walk...where are at in the now.
If you believe there is one correct translation, and if we pick the wrong one then God can't work with that translation...you are certainly entitled to that opinion. And my opinion wasn't stated to elicit some sort of visceral response from anyone. I just believe the Bible is the Bible...and God is God...He can work with any version I choose to read. I was given the truth about ET when I was a child without ever reading the Bible for myself. It was man that told me I was wrong, and the "devil was trying to deceive me". That can throw a monkey wrench in some peoples paradigms about spiritual understanding.
I don't expect us to agree on most things WW. But, I hope we can discuss with love and respect.
As for feelings of emptiness...I'm sorry you feel this way. But, I believe you are here for a reason. Suffering, seeking and even doubt have purpose.
Quote from: jabcat on February 06, 2012, 11:40:50 PM
Hi Shawn. Hoping to stay out of the other stuff. But in regards to your 'balance' comment;
first of all, I'll take it that you weren't suggesting I straddle the fence. IMO, attempting to seek the "whole counsel" is a good thing (I'm far from it). Secondly though, sometimes I do have a thought or revelation, and then swing so far in that direction that I may lose sight of other important things. As far as balance in this particular discussion;
Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
Blessings in your way.
totally can see this too !! :thumbsup: still learning and still trying too
I am thankful for you all !!! :HeartThrob:
Quote from: rosered on February 06, 2012, 11:46:16 PM
weel geez WW
:dontknow:
I just read post #6 and Shawn polietly asked that no man be offended ??
and what is wrong with a man being secure in His faith in God ??????
I think you got offended , as if your works and effort dont count maybe ?
well you both have great things to say and share :HeartThrob: helps me out
I love Tentmaker for this reason , there is depths here that is never found at other places
the main thing is do not give up on one another love you all :HeartThrob:
I agree. I have gotten much out of WWs research over the last couple years. We might come to different conclusions on many spiritual subjects, but isn't that what makes the world go around?
Quote from: rosered on February 06, 2012, 11:37:03 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2012, 11:05:05 PM
Quote from: rosered on February 06, 2012, 10:41:48 PM
What makes us a Christian, White wings ??? or more so a "good Christian " ?
A lot of things Rosey.
I guess part of the ultimate aim is to see a many spiritual levels.
It's just that I don't believe someone has trustworthy spiritual inside if s/he seems allmost scared of literal verses. As if they are infectious.
The written word is the Foundation of Christianity. Foundations are "ugly" but strong and useful. The spiritual house build on it is beautiful I guess.
Would you like to live in a beautiful house without a foundation? Wouldn't you be scared it falls down at the first breeze?
Well lol , my literal house has a falling foundation on the north east side , though I still live in it , we hope to get it fixed one day soon , as it sinks to a lower place in the earth and strains the rest of the house :icon_flower:
used green wood 20 years ago , seasoned wood would have served for many a years past our natural lives , but low we could not afford the seasoned and treated wood at the time and now , it must be redone right this time or loose the whole house
sometimes I feel like we should have set a match to it and had a giant weiner roast :laughing7:
too much put in to turn back now :icon_flower:
and I sure can see this in the natural and compare it to spiritual concepts
Green wood is living wood, that good! It keeps growing and after 10 years you can build a new floor under your cellar :winkgrin:
Here wooden house are very rare. Difficult to get building permist for it and insuring it is hard too.
Use Gopher wood next time....
Dig a few holes under the foundation. Fill the bottom with concrete. Let it dry. Put some car jacks in the holes and jack up the house.
Leave the jacks and fill the holes with concrete. Use some lintels if possible. Cheap, quick and easy.
Quote from: shawn on February 06, 2012, 11:47:05 PM
I'm glad you have respect for those who respect the natural and the spiritual elements to the Bible. I believe both have their purpose. My intention isn't to belittle anyones views as I believe the way we see the Bible is a reflection about our walk...where are at in the now.
If you believe there is one correct translation, and if we pick the wrong one then God can't work with that translation...you are certainly entitled to that opinion. And my opinion wasn't stated to elicit some sort of visceral response from anyone. I just believe the Bible is the Bible...and God is God...He can work with any version I choose to read. I was given the truth about ET when I was a child without ever reading the Bible for myself. It was man that told me I was wrong, and the "devil was trying to deceive me". That can throw a monkey wrench in some peoples paradigms about spiritual understanding.
I don't expect us to agree on most things WW. But, I hope we can discuss with love and respect.
As for feelings of emptiness...I'm sorry you feel this way. But, I believe you are here for a reason. Suffering, seeking and even doubt have purpose.
ditto ! :thumbsup:
Quote from: shawn on February 06, 2012, 11:48:44 PM
Quote from: rosered on February 06, 2012, 11:46:16 PM
weel geez WW
:dontknow:
I just read post #6 and Shawn polietly asked that no man be offended ??
and what is wrong with a man being secure in His faith in God ??????
I think you got offended , as if your works and effort dont count maybe ?
well you both have great things to say and share :HeartThrob: helps me out
I love Tentmaker for this reason , there is depths here that is never found at other places
the main thing is do not give up on one another love you all :HeartThrob:
I agree. I have gotten much out of WWs research over the last couple years. We might come to different conclusions on many spiritual subjects, but isn't that what makes the world go around?
too this I say Amen !! :HeartThrob: let it be so :cloud9:
Quote from: shawn on February 06, 2012, 11:47:05 PM
As for feelings of emptiness...I'm sorry you feel this way. But, I believe you are here for a reason. Suffering, seeking and even doubt have purpose.
Amen.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2012, 11:49:12 PM
Quote from: rosered on February 06, 2012, 11:37:03 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2012, 11:05:05 PM
Quote from: rosered on February 06, 2012, 10:41:48 PM
What makes us a Christian, White wings ??? or more so a "good Christian " ?
A lot of things Rosey.
I guess part of the ultimate aim is to see a many spiritual levels.
It's just that I don't believe someone has trustworthy spiritual inside if s/he seems allmost scared of literal verses. As if they are infectious.
The written word is the Foundation of Christianity. Foundations are "ugly" but strong and useful. The spiritual house build on it is beautiful I guess.
Would you like to live in a beautiful house without a foundation? Wouldn't you be scared it falls down at the first breeze?
Well lol , my literal house has a falling foundation on the north east side , though I still live in it , we hope to get it fixed one day soon , as it sinks to a lower place in the earth and strains the rest of the house :icon_flower:
used green wood 20 years ago , seasoned wood would have served for many a years past our natural lives , but low we could not afford the seasoned and treated wood at the time and now , it must be redone right this time or loose the whole house
sometimes I feel like we should have set a match to it and had a giant weiner roast :laughing7:
too much put in to turn back now :icon_flower:
and I sure can see this in the natural and compare it to spiritual concepts
Green wood is living wood, that good! It keeps growing and after 10 years you can build a new floor under your cellar :winkgrin:
Here wooden house are very rare. Difficult to get building permist for it and insuring it is hard too.
Use Gopher wood next time....
Dig a few holes under the foundation. Fill the bottom with concrete. Let it dry. Put some car jacks in the holes and jack up the house.
Leave the jacks and fill the holes with concrete. Use some lintels if possible. Cheap, quick and easy.
Thank you so much for this advice , we are doing something very simular to this right now Tony ! love to have a cellar , but counting the costs , we are not able to , gopher wood whats the price on that wood these days ? and where is that found ?
we need a good floating wood , here more rain than ever 69 inches in 2011 !! :mshock:
Quote from: jabcat on February 06, 2012, 11:52:35 PM
Quote from: shawn on February 06, 2012, 11:47:05 PM
As for feelings of emptiness...I'm sorry you feel this way. But, I believe you are here for a reason. Suffering, seeking and even doubt have purpose.
Amen.
ditto to this as well , keep praying for one another ... your being prayed for WW ! KNOW THAT please :HeartThrob:
Quote from: jabcat on February 06, 2012, 11:40:50 PM
Hi Shawn. Hoping to stay out of the other stuff. But in regards to your 'balance' comment;
first of all, I'll take it that you weren't suggesting I straddle the fence. IMO, attempting to seek the "whole counsel" is a good thing (I'm far from it). Secondly though, sometimes I do have a thought or revelation, and then swing so far in that direction that I may lose sight of other important things. As far as balance in this particular discussion;
Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
Blessings in your way.
I was saying we straddle many spiritual fences...faith/fear...law/grace...spiritual/natural. We all have to suffer through that. I don't believe you are any different. But, sometimes what appears to be balance is us not being able to decide which side of the fence we will fall. Many of us understand what Paul is saying in Romans 7 and 8 but then depress over our failures. Or we know Jesus is the perfector of our faith yet we still have to pick the right study material to help Jesus out. We know that we can't figure out the Bible with natural eyes, God speaks to us personally but then we fret the first time we don't understand how a passage relates to what he has shown us. I certainly wasn't judging your walk, merely making a comment about the human condition/faith and our growth within our faith.
As for studying, I'm not sure why everytime these subjects come up there are always people who misunderstand what is being said. Of course you should study the Bible. But, my faith ISNT in the translation, or my ability to reason God out through the proper translation. My faith is in God using what is in front of me to further me. It's an exercise in faith. For me (
and this is just for me), when I worry too much about the translation, my cross references, the greek words and what not...I am relying on me...not Christ for proper understanding. I don't think this is an issue for everyone. But, it's an issue for me. I am too easily ensnared by ego, and worshipping my own mind as a god. Today, I seek peace and I know understanding will follow. Today, I don't have to understand everything to have faith. My faith today isn't shaken by my understanding.
Quote from: shawn on February 06, 2012, 11:47:05 PM
I'm glad you have respect for those who respect the natural and the spiritual elements to the Bible. I believe both have their purpose. My intention isn't to belittle anyones views as I believe the way we see the Bible is a reflection about our walk...where are at in the now.
If you believe there is one correct translation,
I think per defenition translations can never be correct. It's often hard to translate a (word) joke between two modern western languages. Greek-English is impossible. Hebrew is far worse. It has so much hidden twists...
I think there are better a worse translations. I have my idea's about the best translations. But still I use several translations plus lexicons because I don't fully trust any of them.
Quoteand if we pick the wrong one then God can't work with that translation...you are certainly entitled to that opinion.
That's not my opionion. There are many shades of gray between black and white. I think we must honestly seek the lightest shade of grey. And even even if I had the perfect Bible my understanding most certainly is gray....
QuoteAnd my opinion wasn't stated to elicit some sort of visceral response from anyone. I just believe the Bible is the Bible...and God is God...He can work with any version I choose to read.
That sounds a to let call it lazy approach. That was why I said the quran is also a translation. I'm not saying you have to own 200+ translations (like Gary) but some drive to find something good is required. With the many free electronic versions it hasn't to cost a cent.
QuoteI was given the truth about ET when I was a child without ever reading the Bible for myself. It was man that told me I was wrong, and the "devil was trying to deceive me". That can throw a monkey wrench in some peoples paradigms about spiritual understanding.
I don't expect us to agree on most things WW. But, I hope we can discuss with love and respect.
I said my thing Shawn.
I'm sure you and everyone understood my point very well. That's enough fighting for today :winkgrin:
QuoteAs for feelings of emptiness...I'm sorry you feel this way. But, I believe you are here for a reason. Suffering, seeking and even doubt have purpose.
Don't feel sorry for me. Save it for people who are full of ET fear inside. I have a very good life. I'm not suffering at all. I sometime think about it. My only worries are if I should wear black or blue socks today. But my streched typing hand turn into a fist sometime....
As for the spiritual connection; you know the saying: You can't miss what you don't know. Suprise parties are the best parties.
Shawn, agree with most or all of what you said in your last post, with the possible exception of the following.
As far as "I'm not sure why everytime these subjects come up there are always people who misunderstand what is being said", I'll address. Certainly there are misunderstandings. Sometimes though, in "these discussions", I don't believe the issue is that what is said is misunderstood. Sometimes it's a response to what is actually said, how it's said.
For instance, if someone says "I believe my relationship with Christ is the most important thing in my life", great, fantastic! But that's often not what's said and where things are left in these "type" discussions. I could explore and cite multiple specific examples, but for the sake of time and effort, I'll just say that I believe in these "type" discussions, things are often actually said that that the poster ends up clarifying and then saying some things differently than in their initial post - prior to it having been questioned.
I know I've said things that when looking at it further, having someone else's input, I realize an adjustment needs to be made. So discussion is a good thing.
Quote from: rosered on February 06, 2012, 11:56:35 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2012, 11:49:12 PM
Quote from: rosered on February 06, 2012, 11:37:03 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2012, 11:05:05 PM
Quote from: rosered on February 06, 2012, 10:41:48 PM
What makes us a Christian, White wings ??? or more so a "good Christian " ?
A lot of things Rosey.
I guess part of the ultimate aim is to see a many spiritual levels.
It's just that I don't believe someone has trustworthy spiritual inside if s/he seems almost scared of literal verses. As if they are infectious.
The written word is the Foundation of Christianity. Foundations are "ugly" but strong and useful. The spiritual house build on it is beautiful I guess.
Would you like to live in a beautiful house without a foundation? Wouldn't you be scared it falls down at the first breeze?
Well lol , my literal house has a falling foundation on the north east side , though I still live in it , we hope to get it fixed one day soon , as it sinks to a lower place in the earth and strains the rest of the house :icon_flower:
used green wood 20 years ago , seasoned wood would have served for many a years past our natural lives , but low we could not afford the seasoned and treated wood at the time and now , it must be redone right this time or loose the whole house
sometimes I feel like we should have set a match to it and had a giant weiner roast :laughing7:
too much put in to turn back now :icon_flower:
and I sure can see this in the natural and compare it to spiritual concepts
Green wood is living wood, that good! It keeps growing and after 10 years you can build a new floor under your cellar :winkgrin:
Here wooden house are very rare. Difficult to get building permit for it and insuring it is hard too.
Use Gopher wood next time....
Dig a few holes under the foundation. Fill the bottom with concrete. Let it dry. Put some car jacks in the holes and jack up the house.
Leave the jacks and fill the holes with concrete. Use some lintels if possible. Cheap, quick and easy.
Thank you so much for this advice , we are doing something very similar to this right now Tony ! love to have a cellar , but counting the costs , we are not able to , gopher wood whats the price on that wood these days ? and where is that found ?
we need a good floating wood , here more rain than ever 69 inches in 2011 !! :mshock:
Gopher wood was just a joke. It was used for the Ark and nobody seems to know what it is. Likely pine/cedar.
It's always a trade-of. Oak doesn't even rot in 20-30 year unpainted but it costs an arm and leg. Or the wood used in waterworks. Very expensive and when you saw it sparks come of you saw blade because it "grinded pebbles" inside.
It all depends on the soil. In some parts of the Netherlands the foundation of a house requires several 30 meter poles (dunno what they are called in English) In other parts just dig a ditch of 1.5 meters deep fill with rubble. Dump a few wheelbarrows cement over it and it it last forever and strong enough to build a 2 floor stone house on it.
Cellars are tricky. Especially if the ground water level isn't below the bottom of the cellar. Read the Scriptures about the Ark :winkgrin:
Best is to tar the outside walls of the cellar. That is how it was done in the past. (no idea how they did the bottom) And it worked very well. Or all concrete but that's something you likely can't do yourself.
May sound odd but cellars can start floating. (just like tunnels)
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2012, 11:36:15 PM
Quote from: shawn on February 06, 2012, 11:21:42 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2012, 11:18:09 PM
Quote from: shawn on February 06, 2012, 11:08:45 PMBut, what I ask is you not dump your own baggage onto me...issues you have with yourself and with another member here who will remain nameless. That isn't my deal. Your comments towards me were unwarranted.
It was just a reply to post #6 Shawn.
It has nothing to do with another member who attacks me in PM and then runs of little a scared little puppy.
Fair enough, but it had that smell to it...as you made a reference to members who look down upon natural reasoning. We both know who that was in reference to...the same person you just slammed in the above post.
Yes. But don't understand that as rejecting everyone with a spiritual opinion because there are several on this forum who combine strong spiritual and literal knowledge. That's the only way to go imo. And I very much repect that.
If I had the choice I would chose that path.
QuoteWW I realize you are not a Christian, but there is a mutual respect thing that I feel you are lacking in this thread. You don't have to be a Christian to understand the value of not judging another human beings walk with Christ.
I always repected this forum. I search hours for articles that possibly could (partly) answer questions of other people. I think you can't even find one post that disrespects Christianity. In fact I find it truely facinating. True, can't get along with everybody.
You know it really puzzles me. I'm feel totally empty inside. I'm totally clueless when people say things like "God spoke to me"
But when reading a typical ET post or some other post that feels totally wrong to me suddenly I feel a lot of drive for frontal assaults. Which I never did out of repect of the forum rules. But I guess I've been direct and confronting quite often.
Posts like #6 triggers that drive....
:friendstu:
I've seen that drive in you. That's God talking to you, ww.
My :2c:
Quote from: jabcat on February 07, 2012, 12:24:50 AM
As far as "I'm not sure why everytime these subjects come up
P.S. I think it also has to do with this medium.
Someone may post a 10 word statement about something, that if we really sat down and talked over time, is actually a complicated 50 page belief system for them. :soap:
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 07, 2012, 12:26:19 AM
Quote from: rosered on February 06, 2012, 11:56:35 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2012, 11:49:12 PM
Quote from: rosered on February 06, 2012, 11:37:03 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2012, 11:05:05 PM
Quote from: rosered on February 06, 2012, 10:41:48 PM
What makes us a Christian, White wings ??? or more so a "good Christian " ?
A lot of things Rosey.
I guess part of the ultimate aim is to see a many spiritual levels.
It's just that I don't believe someone has trustworthy spiritual inside if s/he seems almost scared of literal verses. As if they are infectious.
The written word is the Foundation of Christianity. Foundations are "ugly" but strong and useful. The spiritual house build on it is beautiful I guess.
Would you like to live in a beautiful house without a foundation? Wouldn't you be scared it falls down at the first breeze?
Well lol , my literal house has a falling foundation on the north east side , though I still live in it , we hope to get it fixed one day soon , as it sinks to a lower place in the earth and strains the rest of the house :icon_flower:
used green wood 20 years ago , seasoned wood would have served for many a years past our natural lives , but low we could not afford the seasoned and treated wood at the time and now , it must be redone right this time or loose the whole house
sometimes I feel like we should have set a match to it and had a giant weiner roast :laughing7:
too much put in to turn back now :icon_flower:
and I sure can see this in the natural and compare it to spiritual concepts
Green wood is living wood, that good! It keeps growing and after 10 years you can build a new floor under your cellar :winkgrin:
Here wooden house are very rare. Difficult to get building permit for it and insuring it is hard too.
Use Gopher wood next time....
Dig a few holes under the foundation. Fill the bottom with concrete. Let it dry. Put some car jacks in the holes and jack up the house.
Leave the jacks and fill the holes with concrete. Use some lintels if possible. Cheap, quick and easy.
Thank you so much for this advice , we are doing something very similar to this right now Tony ! love to have a cellar , but counting the costs , we are not able to , gopher wood whats the price on that wood these days ? and where is that found ?
we need a good floating wood , here more rain than ever 69 inches in 2011 !! :mshock:
Gopher wood was just a joke. It was used for the Ark and nobody seems to know what it is. Likely pine/cedar.
It's always a trade-of. Oak doesn't even rot in 20-30 year unpainted but it costs an arm and leg. Or the wood used in waterworks. Very expensive and when you saw it sparks come of you saw blade because it "grinded pebbles" inside.
It all depends on the soil. In some parts of the Netherlands the foundation of a house requires several 30 meter poles (dunno what they are called in English) In other parts just dig a ditch of 1.5 meters deep fill with rubble. Dump a few wheelbarrows cement over it and it it last forever and strong enough to build a 2 floor stone house on it.
Cellars are tricky. Especially if the ground water level isn't below the bottom of the cellar. Read the Scriptures about the Ark :winkgrin:
Best is to tar the outside walls of the cellar. That is how it was done in the past. (no idea how they did the bottom) And it worked very well. Or all concrete but that's something you likely can't do yourself.
May sound odd but cellars can start floating. (just like tunnels)
LOL I know the gopher wood was a joke , i was being silly ... ha ha :laughing7:
playing along .... but :icon_flower:
Quote from: SkyOverCloudNed on February 05, 2012, 08:35:20 AM
Might as well get this show on the road anf just right on into the fray.
Fray? Fray? Why would you say "fray"??? :rolllol:
A gopher would do what exactly? :happygrin:
Quote from: jabcat on February 07, 2012, 01:13:38 AM
A gopher would do what exactly? :happygrin:
LOL float your boat :laughing7: :winkgrin:
Oh yeah!!!!!!!!!! :2thumbs: :happyclap:
What ever version I learn from does not matter.
It is what I teach that matters.
The truth taught in love.
Is more powerful than the written word.
The love that is placed in our hearts discerns the word of God on a level
that is higher than our minds, are minds don't like that.
How poor of version would we have to read to say in our hearts this is not God?
Was it the version or the teachers of the version ?
Is there a translation against Love well I'm against that translation?
I'm not a teacher but my guess is that it is more important to teach with Love and truth.
Did you start looking for tentmakers or did tentmakers come looking for you?
We all got here the same way .
Everything is new.
"Tentmaker" has spent thousands of hours studying the scriptures, a couple hundred different translations, cross-referenced hundreds of thousands of documents, words (Greek and Hebrew), and manuscripts - so more of the truth can be taught - in love. And, interpreted, revealed, and empowered by the Holy Spirit. :thumbsup:
"Contrary to what one learns in Sunday School, Bible translations differ from each other in very significant ways. Learn how many Bible translations actually contain poison to your soul." Gary Amirault
http://tentmaker.org/podcasts/?s=toxic+bibles
Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions,
and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Through All time, The Lord ALWAYS has a remnant!
Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit says the Lord. Zech. 4:6
though some may be able to bear many translations
some tender shoots , may get mowed over by them all
we have to think on others ''state of being '' and be carful not to trip them up :HeartThrob:
remembering being scared to death of them different versions , a while back :mblush:
we must consider others first :icon_flower:
Quote from: jabcat on February 07, 2012, 03:23:25 AM
"Tentmaker" has spent thousands of hours studying the scriptures, a couple hundred different translations, cross-referenced hundreds of thousands of documents, words (Greek and Hebrew), and manuscripts - so more of the truth can be taught - in love. And, interpreted, revealed, and empowered by the Holy Spirit. :thumbsup:
"Contrary to what one learns in Sunday School, Bible translations differ from each other in very significant ways. Learn how many Bible translations actually contain poison to your soul." Gary Amirault
http://tentmaker.org/podcasts/?s=toxic+bibles
I would imagine CARM also feels the same way. Yet, each side has harsh words for the other. We have a section here dedicated to dissing CARM and Slick. Is that in love?
Men have researched, studied out, translated, cross referenced, and all has been done in the name of God. Each side believing they are right...some so right they are willing to impose their views on the other. Ego disguised as an angel of light. Ego in the name of God causing wars and chaos.
Forgive me if I have lost faith in study, cross reference, research, translation, dogma, doctrine, big pretty church buildings, and anything else men can wear as rings on their fingers and crowns on their heads...oh yes all worn in the name of love. In the name of love we push out those who are not like us...who don't think like us.
I grow weary of nice, when what we need is a dose of truth. Us as men have no shot. We dont have a shot at studying the right things, reading the right translations, having the right natural understandings. This is ALL about relationship with Christ. In that we will see the Scriptures for the first time. We have it all backwards. You can't study the Scriptures to find God. God finds us. He is the teacher. He is the perfector. He shows us and guides us. He is not limited by our research and translations.
Forgive me if I speak without editing myself tonight. I have grown tired of the nonsense.
And WW...trust me I don't feel sorry for you. Read what I wrote again. I said, I am sorry you feel that way. I say it because I know what it feels like. It's called empathy.
Quote from: shawn on February 07, 2012, 04:03:26 AM
Quote from: jabcat on February 07, 2012, 03:23:25 AM
"Tentmaker" has spent thousands of hours studying the scriptures, a couple hundred different translations, cross-referenced hundreds of thousands of documents, words (Greek and Hebrew), and manuscripts - so more of the truth can be taught - in love. And, interpreted, revealed, and empowered by the Holy Spirit. :thumbsup:
"Contrary to what one learns in Sunday School, Bible translations differ from each other in very significant ways. Learn how many Bible translations actually contain poison to your soul." Gary Amirault
http://tentmaker.org/podcasts/?s=toxic+bibles
I would imagine CARM also feels the same way. Yet, each side has harsh words for the other. We have a section here dedicated to dissing CARM and Slick. Is that in love?
Men have researched, studied out, translated, cross referenced, and all has been done in the name of God. Each side believing they are right...some so right they are willing to impose their views on the other. Ego disguised as an angel of light. Ego in the name of God causing wars and chaos.
Forgive me if I have lost faith in study, cross reference, research, translation, dogma, doctrine, big pretty church buildings, and anything else men can wear as rings on their fingers and crowns on their heads...oh yes all worn in the name of love. In the name of love we push out those who are not like us...who don't think like us.
I grow weary of nice, when what we need is a dose of truth. Us as men have no shot. We dont have a shot at studying the right things, reading the right translations, having the right natural understandings. This is ALL about relationship with Christ. In that we will see the Scriptures for the first time. We have it all backwards. You can't study the Scriptures to find God. God finds us. He is the teacher. He is the perfector. He shows us and guides us. He is not limited by our research and translations.
Forgive me if I speak without editing myself tonight. I have grown tired of the nonsense.
wow ! speechless :msealed: admire you ability to express yourself Shawn , and say what you mean and mean what you say ..
I was just reading part 3 and those comments made by the lurkers here .. that is why I said , what I did , not all are as strong as you are in faith brother , wish they were though , it would be so much easier to speak clearly and plainly truth
the CARM thing :mblush: point taken
Quote from: shawn on February 07, 2012, 04:03:26 AM
I have grown tired of the nonsense.
Nonsense? Nice.
I don't care for the CARM thing on the boards either, I'd prefer it not be here.
"Dose of truth"? According to who?
"ALL about relationship"? That's what I'm talking about in my last post about "these discussions" - what's said, how things are said. When you say it's ALL about relationship, doesn't that of necessity exclude everything else? At least you do go on to explain what you really mean.
And what you said earlier about misunderstanding applies one way as it does the other. Disregard all the times I've been careful to say that it must be interpreted/revealed by the Spirit.
At this point I'm not even sure what you're addressing with some of the other things. No one's suggesting anything can be built by man or should be worn as crowns. That's a distortion of what's been said. The statement about study was responding to dajomaco's statements. It's a statement of fact. And if I was bragging, I'd be bragging on someone else, giving credit where credit's due. I don't necessarily agree with every little statement Gary's ever made, but in fact he has been led and empowered to put in the legwork that makes it possible for all the information TM shares to be available. If not everyone cares for or about that, that's OK. But I think it's OK to discuss it.
Oh yeah... peace
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2012, 11:36:15 PM
You know it really puzzles me. I'm feel totally empty inside. I'm totally clueless when people say things like "God spoke to me"
Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the Lord,
but the Lord was not in the wind.
After the wind there was an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake.
After the earthquake came a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire.
And after the fire came a gentle whisper.
When WhiteWings heard it, he pulled his cloak over his face and went out and stood at the mouth of the cave and said,
LORD I LOVE YOU, YES I REALLY DO!
Quote from: Beloved Servant on February 07, 2012, 06:23:04 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2012, 11:36:15 PM
You know it really puzzles me. I'm feel totally empty inside. I'm totally clueless when people say things like "God spoke to me"
Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the Lord,
but the Lord was not in the wind.
After the wind there was an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake.
After the earthquake came a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire.
And after the fire came a gentle whisper.
When WhiteWings heard it, he pulled his cloak over his face and went out and stood at the mouth of the cave and said,
LORD I LOVE YOU, YES I REALLY DO!
Very touching. What a blessing. Makes the heart bow.
SkyOverCloudNed
your first and only post , I sure hope you return I am so sorry :icon_flower:
we got carried away in the Spirit , right or wrong , I am still not sure :dontknow: whole lotta shakin 'going on
just wait for the ''dust '' to settle .. and jump right in to the fray :HeartThrob:
If SkyOverCloudNed perceived a fray — why apologize — and then invite the person into your ambiguity?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on February 07, 2012, 07:00:37 AM
If SkyOverCloudNed perceived a fray — why apologize — and then invite the person into your ambiguity?
I am not confused Dave , I just do not like choosing sides ....
thats all.... K ? :Sparkletooth:
What side is there to choose?
For the fray has never been defined.
I new in my heart along time ago that God did not eternally torment any one.
Yet my head would argue that I was just picking a softer easer way.
My daughter completely rejected me and my God that sent people to hell.
She was yelling at me with very unkind words.
The hair on the back of neck stood up and I started yelling back that she would have no choice. That I openly declared before God that I would spend Eternity in hell for her that I would take her place. (She thought I was nuts) But when I yelled it I felt a surge of power that I was openly defying God. What happened later was a complete loosing of fear. I just kept the thought running in my mind from the Spirit. (God kept saying)
I love more than you do I love her more than you do.
Since then I have had a complete absence of fear in Spiritual matters.
But my mind still needed to be trained .
That's were tent makers and all the hard work that their members do has been a blessing.
My mind can not argue with the truth of scripture twisting to create hell.
The hard work and dedication that it takes to untwist scriptures , I believe that doing this is the work of God . Please continue on.