Lamb without blemish

[leli]

I firmly believe that the Lamb of God WAS, IS, and REMAINS TO BE without blemish.  I repeat, the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world is without blemish.  But since this is a discussion forum and Passover/Crucifixion time is at hand, let us discuss this topic maybe new insights would come through.  My first question is:

When Jesus gave his life up on the cross how was He without blemish?

[Molly]

He was without sin.

[leli]

Hello Molly,  Welcome to this discussion.

He was without sin.  You're right.   That makes Him without blemish.  But how?

Remember how He was forsaken because He was made sin?  If He died in that condition what made Him without sin at the time of His givingup His life?

[rosered]

  Jesus come from ABOVE  :HeartThrob:  and was sent by the Father  for us  , a promise of God  many were a waiting to happen  from long ago ,in  the fulness of times  :HeartThrob:

  every perfect gift is from above  :)

[Molly]

Interesting question, leli.  You've got me thinking now.  You mean because he took on the sin of the world [as a scapegoat], that he was no longer 'without sin' at his death?

But, his life in the flesh was without sin, as a living sacrifice.

So as the living sacrifice, he is the Lamb, and as the sin bearer, he is the goat?


Him, who knew no sin, he hath made sin for us, that we might be made the justice of God in him.
2 Cor 5:21

Numbers 7:64 one male goat for a sin offering;

[rosered]

Interesting question, leli.  You've got me thinking now.  You mean because he took on the sin of the world [as a scapegoat], that he was no longer 'without sin' at his death?

But, his life in the flesh was without sin, as a living sacrifice.

So as the living sacrifice, he is the Lamb, and as the sin bearer, he is the goat?


Him, who knew no sin, he hath made sin for us, that we might be made the justice of God in him.
2 Cor 5:21

Numbers 7:64 one male goat for a sin offering;

goats and bulls    are the same offering year after  year



Hbr 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].

  Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world

[Molly]

The Lamb is also a reference to the blood of the lamb put on the doorposts at Passover.  The angel of death passes over those houses.  [The wages of sin are death, but these escape death by the blood of the lamb.]


Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male a year old. You may take it from the sheep or from the goats,

and you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month, when the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill their lambs at twilight.

Then they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and the lintel of the houses in which they eat it.

Exodus 12:5-7

[Beloved Servant]

Makes one consider that the flesh is the sin.

[leli]

Rosed, Beloved Servant, Welcome to the discussion. and Molly of course.

You are right.  He is the sin bearer; right about many things - Passover Lamb, blood on the doorposts etc.  But there is a fine line which when crossed over it becomes hard to explain but when understood, Scriptures, the process of salvation and most especially Isaiah 53, not to mention Psalm 22 become so plainer that they come to life in a different way.

Start by considering why does it say that there was darkness over the land up to the ninth hour.  Did the darkness stop?  Then how are we told in Luke that there was darkness at the time of His death?  If the darkness stopped at the ninth hour when He was still alive on the cross and then again we read that there was darkness at the time of His giving up His life, there must have been a period of light in between - as prophesied in Is.53:11 in the original and many other translations;  not in the KJV since it is based on the Masoretic text.

That light has great significance.  It opens up a vault of knowledge which conforms very well to believers, especially to those who have the Universal Reconiliation at heart.

There is much to say but it has to be, by necessity, gradual.

Thanks for your interests.  I'm on the computer from time to time since I'm home with a cold.

[Beloved Servant]

Please leli,
Being that you're sick,
take the time now to fully explain.

[rosered]

  Oh Thank you for reminding me of this awesome Chapter 
   makes you NOT want to  deliberatly sin any more when reading it like this  NLT  version  Isaiah 53 7 He was oppressed and treated harshly,
      yet he never said a word.
   He was led like a lamb to the slaughter.
      And as a sheep is silent before the shearers,
      he did not open his mouth.
8 Unjustly condemned,
      he was led away.
   No one cared that he died without descendants,
      that his life was cut short in midstream.[c]
   But he was struck down
      for the rebellion of my people.
9 He had done no wrong
      and had never deceived anyone.
   But he was buried like a criminal;
      he was put in a rich man's grave.

10 But it was the LORD's good plan to crush him
      and cause him grief.
   Yet when his life is made an offering for sin,
      he will have many descendants.
   He will enjoy a long life,
      and the LORD's good plan will prosper in his hands.
11 When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish,
      he will be satisfied.
   And because of his experience,
      my righteous servant will make it possible
   for many to be counted righteous,
      for he will bear all their sins.
12 I will give him the honors of a victorious soldier,
      because he exposed himself to death.
   He was counted among the rebels.
      He bore the sins of many and interceded for rebels.

      His Light/ Wisdom , is the knowledge of God   teaching us  by understanding , being able to percieve with the new eyes ..ears and heart for God  , by God for His Glory       

[leli]

Beloved Servant, I wrote a reply and when I tried to post it I was advised that there is another reply that came in that I should see before I answer.  When I went back  i found that I have lost what I had written to you.

There I told you that It took years to come together and cannot expect anyone to accept it all the way.  A bible scholar Friend I know rejected it because "You are the only one who says it" but never told me which part of it was out of line.  I told you also that, thinking that I shall be coming out with some heresy he killed the baby at its birth.  He thought I indoctrinated the small group already and came prepared with weak arguments to combat what he thought I did.  Since then hardly anyone wants to discuss anything with me.  Because i'm weird maybe.

I also asked you if you delved into Is.53:11 and read about the light in translations other than the KJV.  That light has a lot of bearing.

Rosered,  I appreciate you enthusiasm but that translation or paraphrase is not the best.  It's good though that you went to it right away.

[Beloved Servant]

With all due respect, why candy-coat it and beat around the bush?

Out with it soldier!

[rosered]

  Thank Leli , and hope your  feeling better soon , dear one , :icon_flower:  and which version do you suggest ?   Thanks  there are over 50 versions on gospel.com ..lol

[Molly]

This one?

After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light [of life] and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.

--Isa 53:11

[rosered]

This one?

After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light [of life] and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.

--Isa 53:11

great Molly , which version is this  Light being  compared to  Knowledge of God and darkness being  compared to  ignorance

  may be why Jesus when doing all them   mighty works said ''tell no man''  ,,,

[Molly]

Are you going to say he is the Lamb of God upon the resurrection, leli?


I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!"  Rev 6:1

[Molly]

This one?

After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light [of life] and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.

--Isa 53:11

great Molly , which version is this  Light being  compared to  Knowledge of God and darkness being  compared to  ignorance

  may be why Jesus when doing all them   mighty works said "tell no man"  ,,,

That was NIV

This is World English Bible

After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light and be satisfied. My righteous servant will justify many by the knowledge of himself; and he will bear their iniquities.

[rosered]

After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light [of life] and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.

NIV... :thumbsup:    Thanks MOLLY !!    His servant the BRANCH   :)   

sorry   we are on the Lamb part  :mblush:
  just its the whole book is written concerning HIM / JESUS and is many things to many peoples

[Molly]

Then I began to weep bitterly because no one was found worthy to open the scroll and read it.

Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals."

Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

--Rev 5:4-6


This is getting good.

[Molly]

That's why he says, Don't touch me because I haven't ascended to the Father yet.

The [slain] Lamb has to be presented to God by the High Priest.

[rosered]

 
  Very good Molly !!!!  wowza

Start by considering why does it say that there was darkness over the land up to the ninth hour.  Did the darkness stop?  Then how are we told in Luke that there was darkness at the time of His death?  If the darkness stopped at the ninth hour when He was still alive on the cross and then again we read that there was darkness at the time of His giving up His life, there must have been a period of light in between - as prophesied in Is.53:11 in the original and many other translations;  not in the KJV since it is based on the Masoretic text.

That light has great significance.  It opens up a vault of knowledge which conforms very well to believers, especially to those who have the Universal Reconiliation at heart.

there is  two realms   Above and below

   
  in the heavens the seals opened   those seven Spirits of God are working in the Light / knowledge of God poured out , that prophecy being   I will pour my Spirit out on all flesh , it was contained in One man   Jesus Christ  , but than when sent up unto the Father   come down to all flesh ....
   that being said , the new covenant  was  being set into effect
   for death of the testor  to being on the  will  or testimony    ,  this Light of the World  will not end !
  because of the darkness no man can work 
but the work of the Holy Spirit    being regenerated   wow!

  Titus 3 ........ 3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another.


4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared,


5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy.


He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,


6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good.


These things are excellent and profitable for everyone

[WhiteWings]

Start by considering why does it say that there was darkness over the land up to the ninth hour.  Did the darkness stop?  Then how are we told in Luke that there was darkness at the time of His death?  If the darkness stopped at the ninth hour when He was still alive on the cross and then again we read that there was darkness at the time of His giving up His life, there must have been a period of light in between - as prophesied in Is.53:11 in the original and many other translations;  not in the KJV since it is based on the Masoretic text.

That light has great significance.  It opens up a vault of knowledge which conforms very well to believers, especially to those who have the Universal Reconiliation at heart.

There is much to say but it has to be, by necessity, gradual.

Thanks for your interests.  I'm on the computer from time to time since I'm home with a cold.

First I want to mention Matthew 20 - parable of the workers in the vineyard also uses 3rd, 6th and 9th hour.
Plus 11th hour. That possibly is when the grave was closed.

About the darkness: I see no hint the darkness stopped. 9th hour isn't a time but a period of time. The ninth hour lasts from 15:00-16:00 (give or take a few minutes depending on sunrise/sunset)
It's just following the daily ritual of Temple sacrifices.

(http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/3348/1415an.jpg)
Click here for a larger picture
Please note this is work in progress...

:2c:

[WhiteWings]

That's why he says, Don't touch me because I haven't ascended to the Father yet.

The [slain] Lamb has to be presented to God by the High Priest.

I'm no longer sure of that......
Jesus ascended 30 (?) days later.

Touch can also be translated as "cling".
That would mean touching was ok but He simply said "know that I will leave you again (soon) so don't get to hopeful"

[leli]

Beloved Servant, I am sorry that you feel that I am beating around the bush and candy coating it.  This topic was posted and discussed in the old forum and was accepted by all who read it.  Believe that it's sosmething new and does good to the soul.  Be convinced about the light aspect I mentioned and then you'll have a base to understand it better.

Why light? and that in connection with the hardest time Jesus had on the cross having been three hours abandoned by His Father?

Rosered and Molly
I appreciate your interest and your patience.  There are, as you said, many translations and they are all different.  But among many councellors there is wisdom.  When you study Is.53, especially verse 11 you will find differences in translations.  Many differences.  Think of the grave with the wicked and his tomb with the rich in verse 9.   Think of 'alloting him a portion with the great' when everything is for Him

The best translation of Isaiah 53:11 that I found so far is from a semitic translation and reads thus, word for word:

After his suffering he shall see light and be satisfied by its appearing, for the Just One justifies his servant in the presence of many, because their sins he was bearing.

There are some things that make you wonder how they were accepted as truth in theology without question.  Read Romans 5:8-9 to see the process of salvation.  Then ask yourself when was justification was achieved and conciliation opened for mankind.

White wings  Thanks, nice chart. I am not saying that the darkness was until the ninth hour but Matthew an Mark are saying it while Luke is saying that it was dark at His death.  Would the light be prophesied for nothing?