I firmly believe that the Lamb of God WAS, IS, and REMAINS TO BE without blemish. I repeat, the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world is without blemish. But since this is a discussion forum and Passover/Crucifixion time is at hand, let us discuss this topic maybe new insights would come through. My first question is:
When Jesus gave his life up on the cross how was He without blemish?
He was without sin.
Hello Molly, Welcome to this discussion.
He was without sin. You're right. That makes Him without blemish. But how?
Remember how He was forsaken because He was made sin? If He died in that condition what made Him without sin at the time of His givingup His life?
Jesus come from ABOVE :HeartThrob: and was sent by the Father for us , a promise of God many were a waiting to happen from long ago ,in the fulness of times :HeartThrob:
every perfect gift is from above :)
Interesting question, leli. You've got me thinking now. You mean because he took on the sin of the world [as a scapegoat], that he was no longer 'without sin' at his death?
But, his life in the flesh was without sin, as a living sacrifice.
So as the living sacrifice, he is the Lamb, and as the sin bearer, he is the goat?
Him, who knew no sin, he hath made sin for us, that we might be made the justice of God in him.
2 Cor 5:21
Numbers 7:64 one male goat for a sin offering;
Quote from: Molly on February 03, 2012, 08:03:00 PM
Interesting question, leli. You've got me thinking now. You mean because he took on the sin of the world [as a scapegoat], that he was no longer 'without sin' at his death?
But, his life in the flesh was without sin, as a living sacrifice.
So as the living sacrifice, he is the Lamb, and as the sin bearer, he is the goat?
Him, who knew no sin, he hath made sin for us, that we might be made the justice of God in him.
2 Cor 5:21
Numbers 7:64 one male goat for a sin offering;
goats and bulls are the same offering year after year
Hbr 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place,
having obtained eternal redemption [for us].
Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith,
Behold the Lamb of God,
which taketh away the sin of the world
The Lamb is also a reference to the blood of the lamb put on the doorposts at Passover. The angel of death passes over those houses. [The wages of sin are death, but these escape death by the blood of the lamb.]
Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male a year old. You may take it from the sheep or from the goats,
and you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month, when the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill their lambs at twilight.
Then they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and the lintel of the houses in which they eat it.
Exodus 12:5-7
Makes one consider that the flesh is the sin.
Rosed, Beloved Servant, Welcome to the discussion. and Molly of course.
You are right. He is the sin bearer; right about many things - Passover Lamb, blood on the doorposts etc. But there is a fine line which when crossed over it becomes hard to explain but when understood, Scriptures, the process of salvation and most especially Isaiah 53, not to mention Psalm 22 become so plainer that they come to life in a different way.
Start by considering why does it say that there was darkness over the land up to the ninth hour. Did the darkness stop? Then how are we told in Luke that there was darkness at the time of His death? If the darkness stopped at the ninth hour when He was still alive on the cross and then again we read that there was darkness at the time of His giving up His life, there must have been a period of light in between - as prophesied in Is.53:11 in the original and many other translations; not in the KJV since it is based on the Masoretic text.
That light has great significance. It opens up a vault of knowledge which conforms very well to believers, especially to those who have the Universal Reconiliation at heart.
There is much to say but it has to be, by necessity, gradual.
Thanks for your interests. I'm on the computer from time to time since I'm home with a cold.
Please leli,
Being that you're sick,
take the time now to fully explain.
Oh Thank you for reminding me of this awesome Chapter
makes you NOT want to deliberatly sin any more when reading it like this NLT version Isaiah 53 7 He was oppressed and treated harshly,
yet he never said a word.
He was led like a lamb to the slaughter.
And as a sheep is silent before the shearers,
he did not open his mouth.
8 Unjustly condemned,
he was led away.
No one cared that he died without descendants,
that his life was cut short in midstream.[c]
But he was struck down
for the rebellion of my people.
9 He had done no wrong
and had never deceived anyone.
But he was buried like a criminal;
he was put in a rich man's grave.
10 But it was the LORD's good plan to crush him
and cause him grief.
Yet when his life is made an offering for sin,
he will have many descendants.
He will enjoy a long life,
and the LORD's good plan will prosper in his hands.
11 When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish,
he will be satisfied.
And because of his experience,
my righteous servant will make it possible
for many to be counted righteous,
for he will bear all their sins.
12 I will give him the honors of a victorious soldier,
because he exposed himself to death.
He was counted among the rebels.
He bore the sins of many and interceded for rebels.
His Light/ Wisdom , is the knowledge of God teaching us by understanding , being able to percieve with the new eyes ..ears and heart for God , by God for His Glory
Beloved Servant, I wrote a reply and when I tried to post it I was advised that there is another reply that came in that I should see before I answer. When I went back i found that I have lost what I had written to you.
There I told you that It took years to come together and cannot expect anyone to accept it all the way. A bible scholar Friend I know rejected it because "You are the only one who says it" but never told me which part of it was out of line. I told you also that, thinking that I shall be coming out with some heresy he killed the baby at its birth. He thought I indoctrinated the small group already and came prepared with weak arguments to combat what he thought I did. Since then hardly anyone wants to discuss anything with me. Because i'm weird maybe.
I also asked you if you delved into Is.53:11 and read about the light in translations other than the KJV. That light has a lot of bearing.
Rosered, I appreciate you enthusiasm but that translation or paraphrase is not the best. It's good though that you went to it right away.
With all due respect, why candy-coat it and beat around the bush?
Out with it soldier!
Thank Leli , and hope your feeling better soon , dear one , :icon_flower: and which version do you suggest ? Thanks there are over 50 versions on gospel.com ..lol
This one?
After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light [of life] and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.
--Isa 53:11
Quote from: Molly on February 03, 2012, 10:32:48 PM
This one?
After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light [of life] and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.
--Isa 53:11
great Molly , which version is this Light being compared to Knowledge of God and darkness being compared to ignorance
may be why Jesus when doing all them mighty works said ''tell no man'' ,,,
Are you going to say he is the Lamb of God upon the resurrection, leli?
I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!" Rev 6:1
Quote from: rosered on February 03, 2012, 10:39:26 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 03, 2012, 10:32:48 PM
This one?
After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light [of life] and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.
--Isa 53:11
great Molly , which version is this Light being compared to Knowledge of God and darkness being compared to ignorance
may be why Jesus when doing all them mighty works said "tell no man" ,,,
That was NIV
This is World English Bible
After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light and be satisfied. My righteous servant will justify many by the knowledge of himself; and he will bear their iniquities.
After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light [of life] and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.
NIV... :thumbsup: Thanks MOLLY !! His servant the BRANCH :)
sorry we are on the Lamb part :mblush:
just its the whole book is written concerning HIM / JESUS and is many things to many peoples
Then I began to weep bitterly because no one was found worthy to open the scroll and read it.
Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals."
Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
--Rev 5:4-6
This is getting good.
That's why he says, Don't touch me because I haven't ascended to the Father yet.
The [slain] Lamb has to be presented to God by the High Priest.
Very good Molly !!!! wowza
QuoteStart by considering why does it say that there was darkness over the land up to the ninth hour. Did the darkness stop? Then how are we told in Luke that there was darkness at the time of His death? If the darkness stopped at the ninth hour when He was still alive on the cross and then again we read that there was darkness at the time of His giving up His life, there must have been a period of light in between - as prophesied in Is.53:11 in the original and many other translations; not in the KJV since it is based on the Masoretic text.
That light has great significance. It opens up a vault of knowledge which conforms very well to believers, especially to those who have the Universal Reconiliation at heart.
there is two realms Above and below
in the heavens the seals opened those seven Spirits of God are working in the Light / knowledge of God poured out , that prophecy being I will pour my Spirit out on all flesh , it was contained in One man Jesus Christ , but than when sent up unto the Father come down to all flesh ....
that being said , the new covenant was being set into effect
for death of the testor to being on the will or testimony , this Light of the World will not end !
because of the darkness no man can work
but the work of the Holy Spirit being regenerated wow!
Titus 3 ........ 3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another.
4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared,
5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done,
but because of his mercy.
He saved us through the
washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good.
These things are excellent and profitable for everyone
Quote from: leli on February 03, 2012, 09:05:03 PM
Start by considering why does it say that there was darkness over the land up to the ninth hour. Did the darkness stop? Then how are we told in Luke that there was darkness at the time of His death? If the darkness stopped at the ninth hour when He was still alive on the cross and then again we read that there was darkness at the time of His giving up His life, there must have been a period of light in between - as prophesied in Is.53:11 in the original and many other translations; not in the KJV since it is based on the Masoretic text.
That light has great significance. It opens up a vault of knowledge which conforms very well to believers, especially to those who have the Universal Reconiliation at heart.
There is much to say but it has to be, by necessity, gradual.
Thanks for your interests. I'm on the computer from time to time since I'm home with a cold.
First I want to mention Matthew 20 - parable of the workers in the vineyard also uses 3rd, 6th and 9th hour.
Plus 11th hour. That possibly is when the grave was closed.
About the darkness: I see no hint the darkness stopped. 9th hour isn't a time but a period of time. The ninth hour lasts from 15:00-16:00 (give or take a few minutes depending on sunrise/sunset)
It's just following the
daily ritual of Temple sacrifices.
(http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/3348/1415an.jpg)
Click here for a larger picture (http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/3348/1415an.jpg)
Please note this is work in progress...
:2c:
Quote from: Molly on February 03, 2012, 11:00:28 PM
That's why he says, Don't touch me because I haven't ascended to the Father yet.
The [slain] Lamb has to be presented to God by the High Priest.
I'm no longer sure of that......
Jesus ascended 30 (?) days later.
Touch can also be translated as "cling".
That would mean touching was ok but He simply said "know that I will leave you again (soon) so don't get to hopeful"
Beloved Servant, I am sorry that you feel that I am beating around the bush and candy coating it. This topic was posted and discussed in the old forum and was accepted by all who read it. Believe that it's sosmething new and does good to the soul. Be convinced about the light aspect I mentioned and then you'll have a base to understand it better.
Why light? and that in connection with the hardest time Jesus had on the cross having been three hours abandoned by His Father?
Rosered and Molly
I appreciate your interest and your patience. There are, as you said, many translations and they are all different. But among many councellors there is wisdom. When you study Is.53, especially verse 11 you will find differences in translations. Many differences. Think of the grave with the wicked and his tomb with the rich in verse 9. Think of 'alloting him a portion with the great' when everything is for Him
The best translation of Isaiah 53:11 that I found so far is from a semitic translation and reads thus, word for word:
After his suffering he shall see light and be satisfied by its appearing, for the Just One justifies his servant in the presence of many, because their sins he was bearing.
There are some things that make you wonder how they were accepted as truth in theology without question. Read Romans 5:8-9 to see the process of salvation. Then ask yourself when was justification was achieved and conciliation opened for mankind.
White wings Thanks, nice chart. I am not saying that the darkness was until the ninth hour but Matthew an Mark are saying it while Luke is saying that it was dark at His death. Would the light be prophesied for nothing?
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 03, 2012, 11:21:30 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 03, 2012, 11:00:28 PM
That's why he says, Don't touch me because I haven't ascended to the Father yet.
The [slain] Lamb has to be presented to God by the High Priest.
I'm no longer sure of that......
Jesus ascended 30 (?) days later.
Touch can also be translated as "cling".
That would mean touching was ok but He simply said "know that I will leave you again (soon) so don't get to hopeful"
How do you know he only ascended 30 days later?
I think he ascended right after he says that to her.
I think that is when we see that whole scene in Revelation.
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren,
and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. John 20:17
Quote from: leli on February 03, 2012, 07:45:21 PM
Hello Molly, Welcome to this discussion.
He was without sin. You're right. That makes Him without blemish. But how?
Remember how He was forsaken because He was made sin? If He died in that condition what made Him without sin at the time of His givingup His life?
"Forsaken" is just one of the possible translations. Unlogical I would think because God won't forsake someone who lived such a perfect life.
Other possible translations are:
- this was/is my purpose
- this is what I lived for
But that doesn't fit so well with the parallel verse Psalms 22:1
Alot of prophecy being fulfilled
My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? Why are You so far from helping Me, and from the words of My groaning? O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear, and in the night season, and am not silent." (Psalm 22:1-2)
"Now from the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "ELI ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" that is, 'My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?'" (Matthew 27:45-46)
from 12 noon to 3 we saw darkness in the Land
, did the Light come when the earthquake shook the earth and the veil was torn from top to bottom and His flesh entered into the holy of holies
again two realms of thought darkness/ temporary and Light /eternal
the earthly and than the heavenly
QuoteWhy light? and that in connection with the hardest time Jesus had on the cross having been three hours abandoned by His Father?
Rosered and Molly
I appreciate your interest and your patience. There are, as you said, many translations and they are all different. But among many councellors there is wisdom. When you study Is.53, especially verse 11 you will find differences in translations. Many differences. Think of the grave with the wicked and his tomb with the rich in verse 9. Think of 'alloting him a portion with the great' when everything is for Him
The best translation of Isaiah 53:11 that I found so far is from a semitic translation and reads thus, word for word:
After his suffering he shall see light and be satisfied by its appearing, for the Just One justifies his servant in the presence of many, because their sins he was bearing.
There are some things that make you wonder how they were accepted as truth in theology without question. Read Romans 5:8-9 to see the process of salvation. Then ask yourself when was justification was achieved and conciliation opened for mankind
I believe Jesus knew all along this was going to happen to Him , He knows everything all the time we just have to discover this within :icon_flower: thanks will look into the semitic translations :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Molly on February 03, 2012, 11:28:58 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 03, 2012, 11:21:30 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 03, 2012, 11:00:28 PM
That's why he says, Don't touch me because I haven't ascended to the Father yet.
The [slain] Lamb has to be presented to God by the High Priest.
I'm no longer sure of that......
Jesus ascended 30 (?) days later.
Touch can also be translated as "cling".
That would mean touching was ok but He simply said "know that I will leave you again (soon) so don't get to hopeful"
How do you know he only ascended 30 days later?
I think he ascended right after he says that to her.
I think that is when we see that whole scene in Revelation.
I wrote 30, but perhaps it's 40. That said I think there is a parallel with the Jews crossing the Jordan.
Moses died.
30 days of mourning ended on Nisan 1st.
10 days of preparing.
Crossing the Jordan on Nisan 10th
Nisan 10-14 is the period of selecting the lambs.
It was also the time of His triumphal entry (10th)
Acts 1:2-3,9
until the day when He was taken up to heaven, after He had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles whom He had chosen. To these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of
forty days and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God.
[...]
And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
40 days ---> 40 years
:dontknow:
Hey thats some good correlation there WW ! :HeartThrob:
Quote from: leli on February 03, 2012, 11:27:41 PM
Beloved Servant, I am sorry that you feel that I am beating around the bush and candy coating it. This topic was posted and discussed in the old forum and was accepted by all who read it. Believe that it's sosmething new and does good to the soul. Be convinced about the light aspect I mentioned and then you'll have a base to understand it better.
Why light? and that in connection with the hardest time Jesus had on the cross having been three hours abandoned by His Father?
Rosered and Molly
I appreciate your interest and your patience. There are, as you said, many translations and they are all different. But among many councellors there is wisdom. When you study Is.53, especially verse 11 you will find differences in translations. Many differences. Think of the grave with the wicked and his tomb with the rich in verse 9. Think of 'alloting him a portion with the great' when everything is for Him
The best translation of Isaiah 53:11 that I found so far is from a semitic translation and reads thus, word for word:
After his suffering he shall see light and be satisfied by its appearing, for the Just One justifies his servant in the presence of many, because their sins he was bearing.
There are some things that make you wonder how they were accepted as truth in theology without question. Read Romans 5:8-9 to see the process of salvation. Then ask yourself when was justification was achieved and conciliation opened for mankind.
White wings Thanks, nice chart. I am not saying that the darkness was until the ninth hour but Matthew an Mark are saying it while Luke is saying that it was dark at His death. Would the light be prophesied for nothing?
You needn't be apologetic.
And, I don't "feel" anything towards you.
I am just clueless as to exactly what you're talking about
and asking you to spell it out in a concise and easy to understand way.
Would it be too much to ask you to put it in one post so that it may be digested wholly
instead of small bits scattered throughout a long thread?
Thanks!
Quote from: rosered on February 03, 2012, 11:56:20 PM
Hey thats some good correlation there WW ! :HeartThrob:
I hope Sheila reads this because she wrote something about it.
Unfortunately I only remember it was one of these things
- 50-10=40 (pentecost - 10)
- 40 -10
Another correlation.
A very weak correlation but perhaps someone can take the The ark landed on the :soccer: and play with it :winkgrin:
Genesis 8:4 and on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat.
==> Jesus resurrected on the same day.
Reading the responses to "Lamb Without Blemish" showed that there is an interest in souch topic and encouraged me, before I sleep, to talk further on this. Thanks to all who responded. I could not keep up with you all. But thanks.
I know that I shall be bombarded with questions and ridiculed for what I am writing. When the jigsaw is completed you will understand some facts more clearly and will have a picture of the process of salvation (Rom.5:9-10, Justification, Reconciliation and Salvation) as never before. I do expect more comments calling it a very weak correlation. But that all right. I'm more interested in those who follow the trend till all which needs to be said is written.
Now think of this scenario. We all know the general, traditional story of the crucifixion. Jesus was crucified; He uttered words to His Father, then to His mother and after to the thief on the cross. From the sixth hour unto the ninth hour darkness fell upon the land. At the ninth hour the (in)famous words of "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani" are said to have been uttered by Jesus and the darkness ceased. After that we read that He uttered three other words: "I thirst; It is finished; Father into thy hands I commend my Spirit." After three days He was resurrected. Luke informs us that it became dark again at the time of His death.
If that is all there is then we have Jesus dying while still forsaken, while still burdened with our sins. Jesus was made to be sin (2 Cor. 5:21.) and since the Father of righteousness cannot be the Father of sin at the same time He had to forsake Him. But did Jesus die in that condition, as sin?
We have to admit that if Jesus was left forsaken till death then it is like saying that He died in His sins. Could that be true? Because they do not see a solution some say that He carried our sins with Him to the tomb and was resurrected without them, getting rid of them by leaving them behind. This is very contradictory because if that could be applied to Jesus it could be applied to us; we would die in our sins and resurrect without them. But in such a case the crucifixion would have been in vain. Why would Jesus have to suffer to cleanse us of our own sins when our sins could be left behind in the grave and we can appear before God without them?
We know from 1Cor. 5:7 that
" Christ our passover is sacrificed for us"
We also know from Ex 12:5, speaking of the Passover lamb that
"Your lamb shall be without blemish".
From the above we can deduct that Christ, being our Passover, had to be without blemish at the time He was sacrificed on the cross. But was He without blemish at the time of His death, after being abandoned by His Father for carrying our sins, as we generally know it?
Would God offer Himself a tainted sacrifice?
Thank you all for your attention and your time.
Thanks Leli ,
I am simple minded and understand this much .... :icon_flower:
Jesus knew on sin , who carried that sin for us ... while were were yet sinners Christ died for us ...
this ONE time open show was enough for God to accept us as we also accept His Son Jesus , as the perfect sacrifice for all times and ages
being free from sin , how has made us new creatures in Christ , or His , bought and paid for with a price .. :HeartThrob:
is this close ? :msealed: