Reconcile This?

[CHB]

Again, just the way I understand things at this time.

All of those who are in Christ, Paul said "ye are become dead to the law".  He also said "but now we are delivered from the law that being dead wherein we were held".

If we have died and are in Christ then the law no longer has any dominion over us. Everything is lawful unto us but everything is not beneficial to us. We can go out and kill someone and we will still be saved but we will suffer the consequences for our actions. If we are in Christ why would we even think about such things?

Jesus said "a new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another; as I have loved you". To love God and man Jesus said on these two commandments hang ALL the laws.

Love should be the law we live by today. Christians should have the fruit of the Spirit, which is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance, AGAINST SUCH, THERE IS NO LAW (Gal. 5:22-23). Nor does any law or commandment define each of them. These nine principles of the Spirit are not against, nor do they contradict any law no matter what it is. These are the UNWRITTEN laws that are written on the heart, not on tables of stone, or even written as laws that explain each principle written in the pages of scripture. The fruits of the Spirit supersede the law of Moses. No law ever made (even the holiest) is against these nine principles of life.

So, I love every one of you people.  :girlheart:

CHB

[shawn]

Hi jabcat,

I know most do not or will not agree with this but here is how I see these things.

It has to do with who is saying it and who it is being said to. I believe after Jesus was resurrected all of the apostles including Paul, taught New Covenant which had rules and regulations with it.

Paul later came to see and understand the mystery which was a little different from the New Covenant. Under the New Covenant one had to be grafted into Israel to be saved. Had to keep the Lord's Supper. Obstain from certain things. Repent. Have faith. None of these things were required with the mystery. Paul said ALL things were lawful to him. we do not now have to be grafted into Isarael, we are in the family of God. Israel is no longer the way to salvation, Jesus is. Paul was given this understanding to teach to the Gentiles. This doesn't mean that none of the Jew's accepted this teaching because some of them did, just like some of the Gentiles still believe we are in New Covenant but I find no where that God made an old or new Covenant with Gentiles.

All of the apostles were commissioned to preach New Covenant teaching, even paul at first, but Paul turned to the Gentiles, the others didn't. The Israelites were given the New Covenant and this is what the other apostles taught. This is why you see a little difference in the writings between Paul and the others.

When I came to see this all of the scriptures made sense. Before it seemed like some of them were contridictory when we know they are not.

CHB

I actually agree with this, and let me expound upon it.  I have come to believe that the Bible is written to mirror the growth of man, men (of course I include the women folk), and the church.  I should be able to read the Bible from front to back and see my growth in relationship to Christ.

1) Old Covenant-Points to Christ.  Rules, regulations, wrath, judgment, anxiety...doesn't that often mirror the mentality of the babes in Christ?  They are trying to obey rules.  They see the road signs to Christ, but are not living within the easy yoke, and the light burden of grace.
2) New Covenant-You have James preaching Law, Paul preaching grace and that inner turmoil is a threshing process.  Its within that threshing that we seen even amongst the early church leaders that produces faith of great worth.  Most of us experience this process within our own lives.  Who here hasn't gone back and forth from law and grace in their own lives?  Who hasn't been threshed with this painful refiner fire experience? 
3) Mystery of grace preached by Paul-The threshing produces a faith of great worth and we live daily in grace.  We move out from lawful thinking into beneficial and nonbeneficial.

I see the Bible as a cube, not as a line, a page, or a 2-D object.  It has layers, dimensions and truth on multiple levels.  I believe this to be one of those levels...the mirroring of the spiritually progression of faith.

[Molly]

I agree that the Bible shows the progression of man in Christ, from law to grace.

We are in the age of grace now because Jesus died and we have started to come into our inheritance as beneficiaries of the Covenant.

This will is written like a trust, some of the inheritance received now, the rest later when we come of age.

But, if we really could see ourselves as beneficiaries, we would realize that we can do nothing to deserve it, and just bask in the gift.  We would also understand the love of God for us, and love him back.  If you love someone, you try to please him and it makes you happy to please him.



1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

4Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

5He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

20Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

--Gal 3

[rosered]

The old covenant was weak, useless, hung on the cross, buried in the ground.  These are not my words.

I agree because    old adam/humanity  trys in his own strength and power and might , to overcome sin and fails and also  goes in the  Babylon system too  , thinking  that they saved themselves , how much room is there for true praise of God if you are fooling yourself by thinking you some how  are above the rest of the world , it does set up a false sense of pride 
  and we are humbled by Gods hand and work , finally realizing  , its God who saves though Jesus Christ ,  giving God the   proper place and glory  lol
  many tutors  that leads to Christ is the old system of the letter of the law that kills every ounce of  any life we think we have earned  though self righteousness   :sigh:

   our debts are  piled up higher with the false sense of security ,   that we are doing it right and everyone else is  lost   ,   its a crappy mindset     set up  to fail utterly  ,
even  what you ''Think '' you have shall be taken away from you   ,


its about judging whats right ....  no man knows the ways of God , but the Spirit , got to have his Spirit within  , not some  other one operating  :thumbsup:


If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.


Mar 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.

For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

[CHB]

Amen rosered, I agree.

Molly,

I notice you keep going back to Abraham thinking that the promises started with him, if I am not mistaken on that? That is where the New Covenant started.

But, read what paul said concerning the Mystery. (Eph. 3:4-6) "Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ. Which in OTHER AGES WAS NOT MADE KNOWN UNTO THE SONS OF MEN, AS IT IS NOW revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets BY THE SPIRIT; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of THE SAME BODY, and partakers of HIS PROMISE IN CHRIST by the gospel."

It was through Christ that this promise was made, before the world began, not to Abraham, Israel or any one. Abraham didn't even know about this promise.

(Rom. 16:25) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to MY GOSPEL, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, WHICH WAS KEPT SECRET SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN.

This mystery that Paul talks about wasn't known until God revealed it unto Paul. This mystery is being dead in Christ and being dead to the law. What you are referring to concerning Abraham is the New Covenant which I don't believe we were/are a part of. It was only for Israel and Judah and it started with Abraham but the final revelation of salvation was given to Paul and it began before the foundation of the world.

CHB 

[redhotmagma]

Hi jabcat,

I know most do not or will not agree with this but here is how I see these things.

It has to do with who is saying it and who it is being said to. I believe after Jesus was resurrected all of the apostles including Paul, taught New Covenant which had rules and regulations with it.

Paul later came to see and understand the mystery which was a little different from the New Covenant. Under the New Covenant one had to be grafted into Israel to be saved. Had to keep the Lord's Supper. Obstain from certain things. Repent. Have faith. None of these things were required with the mystery. Paul said ALL things were lawful to him. we do not now have to be grafted into Isarael, we are in the family of God. Israel is no longer the way to salvation, Jesus is. Paul was given this understanding to teach to the Gentiles. This doesn't mean that none of the Jew's accepted this teaching because some of them did, just like some of the Gentiles still believe we are in New Covenant but I find no where that God made an old or new Covenant with Gentiles.

All of the apostles were commissioned to preach New Covenant teaching, even paul at first, but Paul turned to the Gentiles, the others didn't. The Israelites were given the New Covenant and this is what the other apostles taught. This is why you see a little difference in the writings between Paul and the others.

When I came to see this all of the scriptures made sense. Before it seemed like some of them were contridictory when we know they are not.

CHB

I actually agree with this, and let me expound upon it.  I have come to believe that the Bible is written to mirror the growth of man, men (of course I include the women folk), and the church.  I should be able to read the Bible from front to back and see my growth in relationship to Christ.

1) Old Covenant-Points to Christ.  Rules, regulations, wrath, judgment, anxiety...doesn't that often mirror the mentality of the babes in Christ?  They are trying to obey rules.  They see the road signs to Christ, but are not living within the easy yoke, and the light burden of grace.
2) New Covenant-You have James preaching Law, Paul preaching grace and that inner turmoil is a threshing process.  Its within that threshing that we seen even amongst the early church leaders that produces faith of great worth.  Most of us experience this process within our own lives.  Who here hasn't gone back and forth from law and grace in their own lives?  Who hasn't been threshed with this painful refiner fire experience? 
3) Mystery of grace preached by Paul-The threshing produces a faith of great worth and we live daily in grace.  We move out from lawful thinking into beneficial and nonbeneficial.

I see the Bible as a cube, not as a line, a page, or a 2-D object.  It has layers, dimensions and truth on multiple levels.  I believe this to be one of those levels...the mirroring of the spiritually progression of faith.

passover, pentecost, and tabernacles
outer court, inner court, holy of holies
:thumbsup:

[Molly]

Amen rosered, I agree.

Molly,

I notice you keep going back to Abraham thinking that the promises started with him, if I am not mistaken on that? That is where the New Covenant started.

But, read what paul said concerning the Mystery. (Eph. 3:4-6) "Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ. Which in OTHER AGES WAS NOT MADE KNOWN UNTO THE SONS OF MEN, AS IT IS NOW revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets BY THE SPIRIT; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of THE SAME BODY, and partakers of HIS PROMISE IN CHRIST by the gospel."

It was through Christ that this promise was made, before the world began, not to Abraham, Israel or any one. Abraham didn't even know about this promise.

(Rom. 16:25) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to MY GOSPEL, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, WHICH WAS KEPT SECRET SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN.

This mystery that Paul talks about wasn't known until God revealed it unto Paul. This mystery is being dead in Christ and being dead to the law. What you are referring to concerning Abraham is the New Covenant which I don't believe we were/are a part of. It was only for Israel and Judah and it started with Abraham but the final revelation of salvation was given to Paul and it began before the foundation of the world.

CHB

Yes I do believe we are inheriting under the everlasting Covenant given to Abraham.  Paul spends all of Galatians 3 explaining how that is so.  That is why I printed out the whole chapter.

Paul is not announcing something new, he is revealing what was always there, a secret hidden from ages and generations and revealed first to the Gentiles.

This Covenant with Abraham was not annulled by the 'old covenant' agreed to 430 years later by the Israelites at Sinai.

18For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

But this everlasting Covenant, reaffirmed through Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and Ephraim is the one we inherit from.  It stayed into effect until it was time for the seed to inherit.

16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


We are the heirs of the everlasting Covenant made with Abraham and his seed.


29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


[Gal 3]



So, Paul says, Christ is the inheritor and I'll tell you a secret--Christ in you the hope of glory--makes you an inheritor, too!

Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ... Rom 8:17




PS I"m not disagreeing with you that it was established before the foundation of the world.  But, then we watch it play itself out through history.

[CHB]

Yes I do believe we are inheriting under the everlasting Covenant given to Abraham.  Paul spends all of Galatians 3 explaining how that is so.  That is why I printed out the whole chapter.

Paul is not announcing something new, he is revealing what was always there, a secret hidden from ages and generations and revealed first to the Gentiles.

This Covenant with Abraham was not annulled by the 'old covenant' agreed to 430 years later by the Israelites at Sinai.

18For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

But this everlasting Covenant, reaffirmed through Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and Ephraim is the one we inherit from.  It stayed into effect until it was time for the seed to inherit.

16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


We are the heirs of the everlasting Covenant made with Abraham and his seed.


29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


[Gal 3]



So, Paul says, Christ is the inheritor and I'll tell you a secret--Christ in you the hope of glory--makes you an inheritor, too!

Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ... Rom 8:17


PS I"m not disagreeing with you that it was established before the foundation of the world.  But, then we watch it play itself out through history.

It's ok if you disagree with me Molly that is what makes me search the scriptures as to whether these things are so. I guess no two people agree 100% of the time.

One thing that jumps out at me is the word "everlasting". I am sure you know that word means age?

This chapter is discussing the law and how foolish the Galatians are for returning to them. He asks them if they received the Spirit by works or by the hearing of faith? He asks them if they are so foolish to think that they are now made perfect by the flesh/law?

In verse 7 Paul says "Know ye therefore that THEY WHICH ARE OF FAITH, THE SAME ARE THE CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM. Under the New Covenant faith was required.

Abraham did not know anything about this mystery or secret that was hid in God, which was revealed to Paul. God told Abraham all about what was expected of him and Abraham agreed. This secret Paul speaks of he says no one knew unti it was shown to Paul.

This secret was that the whole world would be saved through Jesus Christ. It's as simple as that.

CHB

[Molly]

In verse 7 Paul says "Know ye therefore that THEY WHICH ARE OF FAITH, THE SAME ARE THE CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM. Under the New Covenant faith was required.

Abraham did not know anything about this mystery or secret that was hid in God, which was revealed to Paul. God told Abraham all about what was expected of him and Abraham agreed. This secret Paul speaks of he says no one knew unti it was shown to Paul.

I guess it's debatable whether or not Abraham knew about the secret in his possession.  Because Abraham had the seed.   He had faith.  You cannot have faith without Christ.  Neither can you be righteous without Christ.  Christ is the author and perfecter of our faith.

Abraham, as ourselves, was justified by faith alone.


For the Scriptures tell us, "Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith." Rom 4:3


Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. Gen 15:6


Since that word 'mystery' refers to secret knowledge known only to initiates of a group, I would argue Abraham knew, for which cause he named his son, 'laughter.'


I might also point out that Abraham never received the promise.   It was not time to inherit yet.  He lived in tents, looking forward to a city built without hands.--waiting for us, the children of the promise, reckoned through Isaac.



39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

--Heb 11

[eaglesway]

In verse 7 Paul says "Know ye therefore that THEY WHICH ARE OF FAITH, THE SAME ARE THE CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM. Under the New Covenant faith was required.

Abraham did not know anything about this mystery or secret that was hid in God, which was revealed to Paul. God told Abraham all about what was expected of him and Abraham agreed. This secret Paul speaks of he says no one knew unti it was shown to Paul.

I guess it's debatable whether or not Abraham knew about the secret in his possession.  Because Abraham had the seed.   He had faith.  You cannot have faith without Christ.  Neither can you be righteous without Christ.  Christ is the author and perfecter of our faith.

Abraham, as ourselves, was justified by faith alone.


For the Scriptures tell us, "Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith." Rom 4:3


Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. Gen 15:6


Since that word 'mystery' refers to secret knowledge known only to initiates of a group, I would argue Abraham knew, for which cause he named his son, 'laughter.'

I have to ask where Paul says the mystery was unknown until it was shown to him. I see several places where he says the mystery was made known unto him by revelation, but I cannot find the one that says no one else had received the revelation of the mystery previous too, or simultaneous to him receiving it.  :dontknow:

[Molly]

In verse 7 Paul says "Know ye therefore that THEY WHICH ARE OF FAITH, THE SAME ARE THE CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM. Under the New Covenant faith was required.

Abraham did not know anything about this mystery or secret that was hid in God, which was revealed to Paul. God told Abraham all about what was expected of him and Abraham agreed. This secret Paul speaks of he says no one knew unti it was shown to Paul.

I guess it's debatable whether or not Abraham knew about the secret in his possession.  Because Abraham had the seed.   He had faith.  You cannot have faith without Christ.  Neither can you be righteous without Christ.  Christ is the author and perfecter of our faith.

Abraham, as ourselves, was justified by faith alone.


For the Scriptures tell us, "Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith." Rom 4:3


Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. Gen 15:6


Since that word 'mystery' refers to secret knowledge known only to initiates of a group, I would argue Abraham knew, for which cause he named his son, 'laughter.'

I have to ask where Paul says the mystery was unknown until it was shown to him. I see several places where he says the mystery was made known unto him by revelation, but I cannot find the one that says no one else had received the revelation of the mystery previous too, or simultaneous to him receiving it.  :dontknow:

What Paul actually says is that the mystery was hidden from ages and generations, which would make sense, because a secret is by definition hidden--and this one only known to initiates.

[rosered]

  Do not know how I missed all these other posts today ! but I did , seems the update  link does not work  ??
but great points Shawn , Molly and CHB , Eaglesway  ,redhotmagma .. been mostly reading them all

  Abraham= father of faith ,    faith its the big thing , mixed with faith works  , makes you a believer , not just a hearer only 
  without ''FAITH '' its IMPOSSIBLE to please God ...   thats Mollys point  right ?

  those children in the wilderness    wanted meat and  lacked faith , they were telling God what to do and what they wanted from him  , not Letting God  do His desire with them 
Jesus on the cross  asked if the ''cup could pass ''   from Him , but not His will  or desire but Gods be done 
used these two   different examples for the faith    with works  point....  :)   

[eaglesway]

Yes, that is what I read that Paul is saying. I was simply asking where Paul says the mystery was made known exclusively/first to Him. I personally don't think there is any place where that is written.

The reason that matters to me is this. I believe Peter, John and Paul, indeed, all of the 12 and their "Timothys" through them- all received the SAME GOSPEL, once for all- the mystery of the kingdom, with all of its incorporate facets(the mystery of the Bride, the mystery of the Gentile believers inclusion into Israel, the mystery of "anakephalaiomai"-summing up all things in Christ, the mystery of the salvation of all, etc.) Their are twelve foundation stones in the holy city. They are all joined to the chief cornerstone, the Logos. They all received the SAME GOSPEL. They were taught the meanings of the parables. They received the anointing that teaches a person "all things". Jesus spent over 40 days teaching a large group of them, after his resurrection.

"hidden from the ages past" is accompanied by "now made known", and as Paul speaks to the Ephesians he routinely declares "we" and "us"..... In all wisdom and prudence He made know unto US the mystery of His will....


He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
(Eph 1:5-12)

I see the distribution of the mystery as having been broad within the early churches- only receding back into the shadows in subsequent generations, primarily due to the rise of Roman Catholicism and the spread of gnosticism, apostasy and the doctrine of the Nico(dominate)-laitans(people). From the beginning, however, it was the gospel Peter preached to everyone (Acts 3:14-21). Paul also preached the "mystery" of the gospel as part and parcel of it(the gospel), to all- and it was included in the foundation doctrines of the writer of Hebrews(resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment). Jesus included it in his parables as the "mystery of the kingdom." I personally believe the reason why the salvation of all is spoken of so frequently though-out the scriptures is that it was the very gospel they preached from the beginning, not "another gospel within the gospel". For this reason (IMO) Luke includes the salutation of the angels "good news of glad tidings to all people" in the first proclamation of the "good news". Obviously there were those seeking to subvert this open declaration from the beginning, making the many exhortations and explanations to remain steadfast, to the "common salvation" that was delivered "once for all"(Jude :3).
Jude also spoke of the mystery in these terms,  (which John [1 John 2:20] also used) saying, "You know all things, once for all..."



Interestingly enough, the phrase "once for all" occurs 4 other times in the NT referring exclusively to Christ's death for sinners...

Rom 6:10  For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all[/b]; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

Heb 7:27  who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

Heb 9:12  and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

1Pe 3:18  For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

These verses lead to one happy conclusion

1Jn2:2..... And he is (through one offering of his blood)the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

As to whether Abraham knew the secret, well.... as God spoke to him that his seed would be more than the stars of heaven or the sands of the sea(ever do that calculation?-WAY more than the number of people who have lived thus far :o)  I think he received much more, as God's friend, than the few words we have written before us that tell the story of his life in a few pages- but who really knows?  :dontknow:

[Molly]

I agree that the mystery is not routinely taught in churches, nor do people understand that they are inheritors under a covenant, nor why they are inheritors, nor what they are inheriting.

If these things were taught and understood...well...the world might change...

But, we're back in the dark ages of Christianity.




25Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

--Col 1

[eaglesway]

Yea, we are in the dark ages again alright, but perhaps the darkest hour is before the dawn and restoration of the declaration of the true gospel of Jesus Christ is the first rays breaking over the horizon :o)

[Beloved Servant]

Genesis 1:5 ... And there was evening, and there was morning — the first day.

God's day begins at night!

Ever do a study on the great men of the Bible that "rose early?"

[Cardinal]

Yea, we are in the dark ages again alright, but perhaps the darkest hour is before the dawn and restoration of the declaration of the true gospel of Jesus Christ is the first rays breaking over the horizon :o)

:cloud9: AMEN

[CHB]

I have to ask where Paul says the mystery was unknown until it was shown to him. I see several places where he says the mystery was made known unto him by revelation, but I cannot find the one that says no one else had received the revelation of the mystery previous too, or simultaneous to him receiving it.  :dontknow:

Hi Eaglesway,

First mention of the mystery is in (Rom. 16:25-26). Paul said he mentioned it briefly here.


(Eph. 3:4-5)   Whereby, when you read, ye may understand MY KNOWLEDGE IN THE MYSTERY OF CHRIST. Which in OTHER AGES WAS NOT MADE KNOWN unto the sons of men, as it is NOW REVEALED unto his holy apostles and  prophets by the Spirit. 

(Eph. 3:7-8) Whereof, I WAS MADE A MINISTER.   UNTO ME, who am less than the least, OF ALL SAINTS, IS THIS GRACE GIVEN, THAT I SHOULD PREACH AMONG THE GENTILES the unsearchable riches of Christ.                 

(Eph. 3:9) {still Paul talking} And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, WHICH FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD HATH BEEN HID IN GOD, who creted all things.

(Col. 1:25-26) WHEREOF I AM MADE A MINISTER, according to the dispensation of God WHICH IS GIVEN TO ME for you. to fulfill the word of God; {Heb. fully to preach} Even the mystery WHICH HATH BEEN HID FROM AGES AND FROM GENERATIONS, BUT NOW IS MADE MANIFEST TO HIS SAINTS.

I think this mystery is still hidden because most people still don't know about it. Paul wasn't able to preach this because it got him put in prison and everyone left him. They began to say that Paul was mad, or crazy.

Can you imagine what people thought about Paul teaching that the world was going to be saved in his day and that no one needed israel or Abraham only Jesus Christ?  Especially when all that had been known for 4 thousand years was one had to become an Israelite to be saved. Just think what Paul had to endure back then compared to us who believe in the salvation of all today. Most people still think they have to be connected to Israel some how in some way. I think this mystery is not meant to be taught today but later.

To me, the mystery is simple, it just shows that all of the things that were law and regulations from the beginning were shadows that led up to Jesus. We don't have to keep any laws, we don't have to become an Israelite, just believe that Jesus accomplished it all. This is the only thing that connects us with Abraham, he believed in God. And of course our DNA.

Folks, all we need is Jesus Christ and him crucified.  :bgdance:

This is just my understanding of the whole thing.

CHB

[Molly]

Charles Chauncy (1705–1787) was an American Congregational clergyman in Boston. He was ordained as a minister of the First Church, Boston, in 1727 and remained in that pulpit for 60 years. Next to Jonathan Edwards, his great opponent, Chauncy was probably the most influential clergyman of his time in New England. As an intellectual he distrusted emotionalism and opposed the revivalist preaching of the Great Awakening in his Seasonable Thoughts on the State of Religion in New England (1743) and other pamphlets. He became the leader of the "Old Lights" or liberals in theology in the doctrinal disputes following the Great Awakening. He was also the leader in the opposition to the establishment of an Anglican bishopric in the American colonies, writing his Compleat View of Episcopacy (1771) and other works on the subject. A firm believer in the colonial cause, he clearly set forth the political philosophy of the American Revolution in sermons and pamphlets during the period. After the war he defended the doctrine of Universalism in two anonymous tracts: Salvation for All Men (1782) and The Mystery Hid from Ages and Generations (1784).

Charles Chauncy was the leading opponent of the Great Awakening, the Protestant evangelical movement that swept through the British North American colonies between 1739 and 1745.

Chauncy was born into the elite Puritan merchant class that ruled Boston. His great-grandfather, Charles Chauncy, after whom he was named, was the second president of Harvard. His father was a successful Boston merchant. As one biographer puts it, "Chauncy was first and foremost a traditional Puritan cleric.... As a rule, Chauncy throughout his life supported the clergy who observed the traditional decorum of the New England [ruling elite] way" (Charles H. Lippy, Seasonable Revolutionary: The Mind of Charles Chauncy (Chicago: Nelson Hall, 1981, p. 12). Although this Puritan stock had been dissenters in England (thus the liberals), in America they were the Standing Order, the ruling elite (and thus the conservatives against other religious groups like the Baptists and Quakers). Chauncy was thus a staunch and loyal supporter of the political, social, religious, and economic merchant class status quo.

Chauncy received both his undergraduate degree and his master's in theology from Harvard. He was ordained at the First Church in Boston in 1727, where he spent the rest of his life: 60 years as pastor of "Old Brick," as his church was called. It was the oldest Congregational church in Boston and one of the most important in New England.

In his book, Old Brick: Charles Chauncy of Boston, 1705–1787, Edward M. Griffin presents a thumbnail summary of Chauncy's life and work:

[Chauncy] played a role in the major events of his time: not only the Great Awakening, but also the French and Indian wars, the controversy over the proposed establishment of the Anglican episcopacy in America, political events from the Stamp Act through the Revolution, the rise of the Enlightenment, the growth of "liberal Protestantism," social changes in Boston, and the development of Unitarianism.

Chauncy organized American clergy and corresponded with English dissenting clergy to protest and prevent the encroachment of the Church of England in its colonies. Although his effort to unify the clergy ultimately failed, Chauncy received an honorary Doctor of Divinity degree from the University of Edinburgh. He was a charter member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and was recognized by the Massachusetts Historical Society (when his portrait was hung there) as "eminent for his talents, learning, and lover of liberty, civil and religious." He was, in short, honored as one of the leading intellects of 18th-century America. He was also an unapologetic elitist. Biographer Lippy wrote that Chauncy believed "the laymen should simply follow the lead of the clergy who were, after all, the theological professionals."

Chauncy published his major theology work, The Mystery Hid from Ages and Generations, in 1785, two decades after he had completed it. He had held back publication because he recognized the rigorous logic of his arguments ended up affirming an innate moral sense in man, a belief in human free will, an affirmation of universal salvation and thus the spiritual equality of all. These claims undermined the doctrinal traditions of his own Calvinist faith tradition and the social hierarchy he extolled from the beginning to the end of his life. The construction of a rational, Enlightenment foundation for a theologically progressive but deeply embedded, socially conservative liberal faith tradition began with Charles Chauncy. Thanks in no small part to Chauncy's life and work, by 1804 a liberal Christian view was the dominant one in Boston. This complex conservative man had inadvertently sparked a new American liberal theological tradition: American Unitarianism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Chauncy_(1705%E2%80%931787)



Here is the book.  You can read it online.  Could someone read it and tell me what it says?  There are 'f's' instead of 's's' so it takes some getting used to.

The mystery hid from ages and Generations, made manifest by the Gospel-Revelation

                    or

THE SALVATION  of ALL MEN

http://www.archive.org/stream/mysteryhidfromag00chau#page/n9/mode/2up

[CHB]

Chauncy published his major theology work, The Mystery Hid from Ages and Generations, in 1785, two decades after he had completed it. He had held back publication because he recognized the rigorous logic of his arguments ended up affirming an innate moral sense in man, a belief in human free will, an affirmation of universal salvation and thus the spiritual equality of all. These claims undermined the doctrinal traditions of his own Calvinist faith tradition and the social hierarchy he extolled from the beginning to the end of his life.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Molly,

I have never heard of Charles Chauncy before. I don't believe we have free will nor do I believe in Calvinist teaching. I know very little about Unitarianism.

Dr. Martin is the first one to introduce me to this. There are some things I feel that even he has missed concerning the mystery. I don't believe any of us...myself especially...will fully understand it until we are all in all.

The New Covenant and the Mystery
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d920501.pdf

CHB

[WhiteWings]

Maybe doing as good as you can/understand is the mystery  :winkgrin:

[Molly]

Maybe doing as good as you can/understand is the mystery  :winkgrin:

We can't be righteous without Christ.

Certainly there is a glimmer of him in everyone.

But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! Mat 6:23

[dajomaco]

After the gospel was preached for the first time.
The people received it as witnessed by the Holy Spirit.
Left without further instruction. They thought wow we can get drunk.
We can be gluttons at the festival table.
We can fornicate with any one we want even our own family.
We don't even have to hide it we can boast about it.

So every time you preach the gospel properly the religious person
They  should react by saying.
So I can go and rape and steal and still go heaven.
If every one gets saved.




Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.

So then, when you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat, 21 for when you are eating, some of you go ahead with your own private suppers. As a result, one person remains hungry and another gets drunk. 22 Don't you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God by humiliating those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? Certainly not in this matter!

It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father's wife. 2 And you are proud!

[eaglesway]

So I can go and rape and steal and still go heaven.
If every one gets saved.




Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.

Although mercy will triumph over judgment in the end, only a fool disregards the wrath of God, or the discipline of God.

"It would be better for him were a millstone tied around his neck and he was cast into the sea"

"You shall not escaqpe until you have paid the last penny"

"Fall on the rock and be broken, lest the rock fall upon you and grinds you into powder."

Not to mention the immediate cost of sin- a tormented mind and a ship wrecked life.

[Beloved Servant]

It is the Lord, the Sovereign Ruler, Who calls forth loyalty and obedient service.