I'm going to set this up 2 different ways. One is a list of 2 things, I'll call "Grace" and "Sin". The other is matching up two statements side-by-side. All the same information, just presented in two different formats to help examine it.
"Grace"
all things are lawful
no condemnation to them is Christ Jesus
happy is the man who doesn't condemn himself in what he allows
it's no longer i that do it, but the sin that dwells in me
the things i want to do i don't, the things i dont' want to do, i do
it is finished
it's not what enters into a man that defiles him, but what comes out
"Sin"
turned over to satan for the sinful nature to be destroyed so the spirit will be saved in the day of the lord
there is a sin unto death, you should not pray for it
all unrighteousness is sin
another law...bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members
Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness
hate is murder; lust is adultary
"Wild Card"
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness
------------------------------------------------
all things are lawful --- all unrighteousness is sin
no condemnation to them in Christ Jesus --- there is a sin unto death, you should not pray for it
happy is the man who does not condemn himself in that which he allows --- another law...bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members
it's no longer i that do it, but the sin that dwells in me --- Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness
it is finished --- turned over to satan for the sinful nature to be destroyed so the spirit will be saved in the day of the lord
it's not what enters into a man that defiles him, but what comes out --- hate is murder; lust is adultary
Thoughts on reconciling these things?
Hi jabcat,
I know most do not or will not agree with this but here is how I see these things.
It has to do with who is saying it and who it is being said to. I believe after Jesus was resurrected all of the apostles including Paul, taught New Covenant which had rules and regulations with it.
Paul later came to see and understand the mystery which was a little different from the New Covenant. Under the New Covenant one had to be grafted into Israel to be saved. Had to keep the Lord's Supper. Obstain from certain things. Repent. Have faith. None of these things were required with the mystery. Paul said ALL things were lawful to him. we do not now have to be grafted into Isarael, we are in the family of God. Israel is no longer the way to salvation, Jesus is. Paul was given this understanding to teach to the Gentiles. This doesn't mean that none of the Jew's accepted this teaching because some of them did, just like some of the Gentiles still believe we are in New Covenant but I find no where that God made an old or new Covenant with Gentiles.
All of the apostles were commissioned to preach New Covenant teaching, even paul at first, but Paul turned to the Gentiles, the others didn't. The Israelites were given the New Covenant and this is what the other apostles taught. This is why you see a little difference in the writings between Paul and the others.
When I came to see this all of the scriptures made sense. Before it seemed like some of them were contridictory when we know they are not.
CHB
The difference between the Old and the New Covenant is that somebody [Jesus] died.
The Old Covenant is a will. Under the New Covenant the benefiiciaries inherit the assets in the will because the Testator has died.
We are the co-inheritors with Christ. Christ is the mediator [Executor] of the will, marshalling the assets and handing them out to the beneficiaries.
This is the grace part of it. But only a portion is handed out in this age [an earnest of our inheritance to seal us with the promise of our full redemption]. Thus, we are still under the law until we receive the full inheritance, and that is the 'sin' part of it.
So it can seem contradictory but it's not. We are still children under the schoolmaster until we grow up into the head, even Christ.
Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. [Eph 4:15]
C, I think that's an awesome post, with much to consider. At the very least, I agree with "who being addressed", as these are statements from Jesus, John, Paul, etc., all having at least somewhat different focuses to their ministries/missions. Jumbling all that up can seem contradictory. You've made distinction there, plus, added some other things to take into account. :thumbsup:
Molly, could you expound on "we're still under the law" piece? I find it an interesting thing to consider that people like Zender say we (Gentiles) were never under the law - that it wasn't given to us. I personally don't see myself as under the Law, but perhaps under "a law", i.e., that sin still works in my flesh (i.e., Paul said "no longer I that do it [THE Law no longer applied?")..but I think that may be a different L/law? :dontknow:
Paul also said the "old", "the Law", was passing/had passed away. That now (yes, after the Death and Resurrection :thumbsup:) a new work was in progress, the law written on our hearts. I see that as having the new birth, the Holy Spirit leads and empowers us to please the Father, not serve Him out of drudgery and compulsion (although I personally very much mix them).
There is only one Covenant.
The mystery [the secret hidden from ages] stipulates to the beneficiaries.
Nothing has changed. They were the beneficiaries before the foundation of the world.
Those beneficiaries, as it turns out, are the firstborn, the wild ox, the wild olive tree, those who were lost and now found. "Grafted into" the cultivated olive tree is simply acknowledging that they are ready to claim their birthright in Christ.
Another way to look at it. Christ is the Testator. Christ is the benefiiciary. Christ dies. Christ inherits. Christ is the Executor handing out the inheritance.
It works just like any other will, except we're talking about God.
What do we inherit under the New Covenant?
Ever think about that? :girlheart:
Quote from: JabMolly, could you expound on "we're still under the law" piece? I find it an interesting thing to consider that people like Zender say we (Gentiles) were never under the law - that it wasn't given to us;
Yes, of course the Law was given to us. That's part of the Covenant. He gives us a new heart of flesh [the sacred heart of Christ] and writes his law on our hearts and minds.
I Will Make a New Covenant
This Is the Covenant That I Will Make With Them
I Will Put My Laws Into Their Mind, and Write Them in Their Hearts
Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.--Jer 31
Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
[/i]
And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Gen 17:7
and to thy seed which is Christ. [Gal 3:16]Here we are in the Old Testament but he talks of a 'new covenant.' Yet, we know that this same Covenant was cut with Abraham's seed long before this.
The Covenant with Abraham and this 'new' Covenant are one and the same.
But, we see at Sinai another Covenant was cut, not between Christ and his seed, but between God and Israel, where Israel had a part in upholding the terms of this Covenant. They agreed, Yes we will keep your laws. Of course they did not. They broke his laws over and over again. Broke them even before Moses came down from the mountain. Before the ink was even dry, they broke the tablets of the law. Therefore, this Covenant did not stand, not even from day one.
But this 'new' Covenant, the everlasting Covenant, is not between man and God. It is between God and himself, therefore it will never be broken.
Liked this Jab :thumbsup:
seeing the sin as death and the grace as life
seems the two trees
as the 2 covenants
one has good in it as well as exposing the evil nature
some scriptures you touched on , Paul says in Romans 7 and 8 explains the grace of God though Jesus Christ = this is the grace of God
Thanks rose.
Bob Wilkin writes;
What on earth did Paul mean when he said that "All things are lawful for me"?
Whatever he meant, he clearly did not mean that it was acceptable for Christians to defile the marriage bed, lie, cheat, murder, get drunk, covet, etc. Notice the three verses which precede verse 12. There Paul warns that the unrighteous-adulterers, homosexuals, thieves. covetous, drunkards, revilers and the like-will not inherit (i.e., possess, have a position of rulership in) the kingdom of God. Likewise, in the subsequent verses Paul commands them to flee immorality (v 18) and to glorify God in their bodies (v 20).
In several of his letters Paul gave lists of sins, things which were unlawful for Christians. See, for example, Ephesians 5:3-5, Galatians 5:19-21, and 1 Corinthians 6:9-11--the verses immediately preceding the verse in question. In Romans 8:7ff Paul refers to the believer's obligation to obey "the law of God." Yes, Paul taught that believers are no longer under the Law of Moses (Rom 10:4; Gal 3:25; 4:9-12, 21-31). However, he did not teach that we are under no law of any kind. We are under the commands of the New Testament. (By the way, nine of the ten commandments are repeated in the New Testament.)
When Paul refers to "all things" he means all things not specifically forbidden in Scripture. This is crystal clear in the immediate (6:1-20) and broader (8:1-11:1). Paul is referring to our liberty in unspecified areas. There is much freedom in our walk with Christ. We can choose any car, any apartment or house, any clothes, any food, any sport, etc., yet with two prominent restrictions.
Paul's first restriction to our liberty in unspecified things concerns its effect on others in the body: "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful." If our choice of clothes or food or the like will cause fellow believers to stumble, we are to restrict our freedom (1 Cor. 8-10).
Paul's second restriction to our liberty in unspecified matters concerns addictions: "All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any." To be addicted to anything, even things which are not forbidden in Scripture, is wrong.
If I may tackle a major moral malady today, the consumption of wine and alcohol in my opinion falls in this category. The Scriptures do not forbid drinking altogether. However, in light of the high percentage of alcohol and drug addiction in our world today, would not a wise steward choose to abstain altogether? This would be wise both from the standpoint of not causing your brother to stumble and not opening yourself up to a very addicting substance. For example, if a pastor, elder, or deacon is seen drinking, would this not send the message to the youth and adults in the church that drinking is OK? Might this not contribute to the downfall of many? Indeed, I think it would and does. This is not only true of those in positions of leadership, but of all in the body.
Paul's point is that we have liberty in areas not specifically forbidden in Scripture with two restrictions. We are to restrict our liberty when to exercise it would injure a fellow believer. And, we are to restrict our liberty when we find that we are becoming or could become addicted to something.
comments on his take?
well Jab , I see Bobs point on the law of liberty that is motivated through love and trusting ,letting a conscience be a guide / aware of the Holy Spirit within them working , Paul worked harder to make up for his error , where as those without that debt under the law of moses were as one dead to that law , it did its part /job
also the Law of Love would never defile :HeartThrob: because forgiveness made all the difference .. Paul / Saul was a murderer and was forgiven and appearing holy before men and actually being Holy before God and men is not an act but a real work of the Holy Spirit
an example Luk 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, [the same] loveth little.
its no good until you KNOW your forgiven , most live with guilt / and still offering for sin , and never get past that part , we see this all the time in the churches of babylon
The whole alcohol thing is kind of funny. I agree there are dangers with substances like alcohol and drugs. But sugar is much more addictive than alcohol is to many people. So then we should all completely abstain from sugar. Video games are very addictive to me, so everyone should completely abstain from video games. Coffee is the most addictive, and abused drug there is. Don't drink coffee. Many runners become addicted to running to the point of doing real damage to their body (I'm anti running so this one I believe everyone should abstain from, I mean if you're out running in the freezing rain in the dark, you have a serious problem :laughing7:).
Where does it end?
For me I have had an issue with alcohol since I was young. We grew up in a strict baptist church. No alcohol, no dancing, etc etc. My issue was that when I read the bible, there is Jesus turning water into wine, the kind that gets people drunk, not grape juice as my teachers and pastors would say. At the festivals they drank alcoholic wine. It would have been 5 months since the grape harvest, there was no new wine left at passover.
My issue is not with an addiction problem to alcohol, interestingly its one of the only substances I've never really abused. But saying to completely abstain seems to be adding to the burden. Next all women should only wear burkas, and men should wear full suits everywhere. My cousins weren't allowed to wear shorts for a while, even when playing outside in the hot summer.
If you're teaching your kids something that goes against what the bible is saying well that becomes a stumbling block for that child. I know it did for me, it didn't help that most of the people in our church didn't exhibit the traits of Jesus love to others, that I kept reading about.
I guess I'm more concerned about legalism. If you're in love with Christ and being led by his spirit the rest will fall into place. :2c:
I think the only laws we have today that God is pleased with is LOVE for God and man. Of course love covers many areas of humanism. Is that a word? :bigGrin:
CHB
Quote from: Molly
I Will Make a New Covenant
This Is the Covenant That I Will Make With Them
I Will Put My Laws Into Their Mind, and Write Them in Their Hearts
Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Molly, this is your quote do you see anything in it about Gentiles?
When Jesus died that ended the Old Covenant and instituted the New Covenant with Israel and Judah. This is what I see written anyway.
Jesus said Himself, "I am sent ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel". I think he was referring to the Covenants.
CHB
Quote from: jabcat on January 25, 2012, 11:15:57 AM
When Paul refers to "all things" he means all things not specifically forbidden in Scripture. This is crystal clear in the immediate (6:1-20) and broader (8:1-11:1). Paul is referring to our liberty in unspecified areas. There is much freedom in our walk with Christ. We can choose any car, any apartment or house, any clothes, any food, any sport, etc., yet with two prominent restrictions.
Paul's first restriction to our liberty in unspecified things concerns its effect on others in the body: "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful." If our choice of clothes or food or the like will cause fellow believers to stumble, we are to restrict our freedom (1 Cor. 8-10).
Paul's second restriction to our liberty in unspecified matters concerns addictions: "All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any." To be addicted to anything, even things which are not forbidden in Scripture, is wrong.
If I may tackle a major moral malady today, the consumption of wine and alcohol in my opinion falls in this category.
Quote from: jabcat on January 25, 2012, 11:56:05 AM
comments on his take?
Pharisee v2.0
Quote from: CHB on January 25, 2012, 04:02:18 PM
Quote from: Molly
I Will Make a New Covenant
This Is the Covenant That I Will Make With Them
I Will Put My Laws Into Their Mind, and Write Them in Their Hearts
Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Molly, this is your quote do you see anything in it about Gentiles?
When Jesus died that ended the Old Covenant and instituted the New Covenant with Israel and Judah. This is what I see written anyway.
Jesus said Himself, "I am sent ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel". I think he was referring to the Covenants.
CHB
Hi CHB, I have just spent about 70 pages on another thread trying to prove to people that the people mentioned in Jer 31:31 are the Gentiles who come to believe in Christ after his death. I guess I didn't do a very good job of it. :laughing7:
But, let me ask you this: What do you mean by 'the old covenant ended when Jesus died.' Do you think that God just breaks his own covenants? Please explain to me how that would happen. Did God say, I don't like this agreement anymore, I declare it null and void? We are talking about a contract, here, which is why Paul so often sounds just like a lawyer.
and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. [Heb 12:24]
Let's see what that word, "covenant" means:
"covenant".
G1242
διαθήκη
diathēkēdee-ath-ay'-kay
From G1303; properly a disposition, that is, (specifically)
a contract (especially a devisory will): - covenant,
testamentTHE COVENANT IS A WILL, IS A WILL, IS A WILL. THE TESTATOR HAS TO DIE FOR THE CONTRACT TO GO INTO EFFECT. ONCE IT GOES INTO EFFECT, THE BENEFICIARIES INHERIT.
The Testament goes into effect when Jesus dies.
"testament"tes·ta·ment/ˈtestəmənt/
Noun:
1.
A person's will, esp. the part relating to personal property.
The old covenant was weak, useless, hung on the cross, buried in the ground. These are not my words.
Quote from: Molly
But, let me ask you this: What do you mean by 'the old covenant ended when Jesus died.' Do you think that God just breaks his own covenants? Please explain to me how that would happen. Did God say, I don't like this agreement anymore, I declare it null and void? We are talking about a contract, here, which is why Paul so often sounds just like a lawyer.
Hi Molly,
You don't think we have two Covenants now do you?
(Heb. 8:13) In that he saith, A NEW COVENANT, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Look at what Paul said about a husband and wife.
Rom. chapter 7.
The law has dominion over a man AS LONG AS HE LIVETH {Jesus}.
If her husband be dead she is free from that law {Israel}.
(Verse 4) Wherefore, my brethern,{Israel} YE ALSO ARE BECOME DEAD TO THE LAW BY THE BODY OF CHRIST. That ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead.
We see here that while Jesus was living the Old Covenant was in force but once he died that annuled the OC. Then it says that "ye should be married to another, even him who is raised from the dead". This brought the New Covenant into force.
(Heb. 9:15-17) And for this cause he is the mediator of THE NEW TESTAMENT, {new covenant} that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament. {old Covenant}
(Verse 16) For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testor. {Christ}
(Verse 17) For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
When Jesus died this annuled the Old and brought in the New.
Heb. 10:9) Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He TAKETH AWAY THE FIRST, that he may ESTABLISH THE SECOND.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on January 25, 2012, 07:35:48 PM
Quote from: Molly
But, let me ask you this: What do you mean by 'the old covenant ended when Jesus died.' Do you think that God just breaks his own covenants? Please explain to me how that would happen. Did God say, I don't like this agreement anymore, I declare it null and void? We are talking about a contract, here, which is why Paul so often sounds just like a lawyer.
Hi Molly,
You don't think we have two Covenants now do you?
(Heb. 8:13) In that he saith, A NEW COVENANT, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Look at what Paul said about a husband and wife.
Rom. chapter 7.
The law has dominion over a man AS LONG AS HE LIVETH {Jesus}.
If her husband be dead she is free from that law {Israel}.
(Verse 4) Wherefore, my brethern,{Israel} YE ALSO ARE BECOME DEAD TO THE LAW BY THE BODY OF CHRIST. That ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead.
We see here that while Jesus was living the Old Covenant was in force but once he died that annuled the OC. Then it says that "ye should be married to another, even him who is raised from the dead". This brought the New Covenant into force.
(Heb. 9:15-17) And for this cause he is the mediator of THE NEW TESTAMENT, {new covenant} that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament. {old Covenant}
(Verse 16) For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testor. {Christ}
(Verse 17) For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
When Jesus died this annuled the Old and brought in the New.
Heb. 10:9) Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He TAKETH AWAY THE FIRST, that he may ESTABLISH THE SECOND.
CHB
:thumbsup:
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 25, 2012, 07:54:11 PM
Quote from: CHB on January 25, 2012, 07:35:48 PM
Quote from: Molly
But, let me ask you this: What do you mean by 'the old covenant ended when Jesus died.' Do you think that God just breaks his own covenants? Please explain to me how that would happen. Did God say, I don't like this agreement anymore, I declare it null and void? We are talking about a contract, here, which is why Paul so often sounds just like a lawyer.
Hi Molly,
You don't think we have two Covenants now do you?
(Heb. 8:13) In that he saith, A NEW COVENANT, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Look at what Paul said about a husband and wife.
Rom. chapter 7.
The law has dominion over a man AS LONG AS HE LIVETH {Jesus}.
If her husband be dead she is free from that law {Israel}.
(Verse 4) Wherefore, my brethern,{Israel} YE ALSO ARE BECOME DEAD TO THE LAW BY THE BODY OF CHRIST. That ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead.
We see here that while Jesus was living the Old Covenant was in force but once he died that annuled the OC. Then it says that "ye should be married to another, even him who is raised from the dead". This brought the New Covenant into force.
(Heb. 9:15-17) And for this cause he is the mediator of THE NEW TESTAMENT, {new covenant} that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament. {old Covenant}
(Verse 16) For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testor. {Christ}
(Verse 17) For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
When Jesus died this annuled the Old and brought in the New.
Heb. 10:9) Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He TAKETH AWAY THE FIRST, that he may ESTABLISH THE SECOND.
CHB
:thumbsup:
If I write a will, and leave everything to my children, what happens while I'm alive? Nothing. They just go on doing their thing and living their life.
What happens when I die? They inherit all my property.
So, is the will the same before and after I die? Yes. But, it doesn't go into effect until I die.
I cannot change my mind and write a new will after I die. My death does not annul the will, it enforces it.
Now, what if---I write the will and put it aside, but then I make another agreement with my children--while I am alive, I will give each of you 5000 a year if you work for me during the year.
So, we do that, if they work for me I give them the money, and if they don't, I don't.
After I die, THAT contract is annulled because I am dead, but now my will goes into effect and they inherit everything.
So something deeper is going on here.
And, yes there are two covenants. One is a Covenant with death, but it's temporary, used as a stop gap until the children can inherit. We see this in wills, too, where trustees are placed over the children until they come of age.
Quote from: Molly
I cannot change my mind and write a new will after I die. My death does not annul the will, it enforces it.
God/Jesus Christ was married to israel. The Old Covenant was like a marriage contract. After He died this agreement was no longer valid. The marriage Covenant was replaced by a new one which was promised in Jeremiah 31:31-32. Look in verse 32 where it says "I was a husband unto them".
CHB
Quote from: CHB on January 26, 2012, 01:49:15 AM
Quote from: Molly
I cannot change my mind and write a new will after I die. My death does not annul the will, it enforces it.
God/Jesus Christ was married to israel. The Old Covenant was like a marriage contract. After He died this agreement was no longer valid. The marriage Covenant was replaced by a new one which was promised in Jeremiah 31:31-32. Look in verse 32 where it says "I was a husband unto them".
CHB
Yes, I agree. A divorced woman cannot remarry until her husband dies. This is a law in Leviticus.
If you look at the OT, you will see that God divorces the house of Israel [the northern ten tribes]. He does not divorce the house of Judah.
Therefore, the house of Israel cannot remarry until her husband [Jesus] dies, which is how the church is now able to become the bride of Christ. She can marry again.
Yes he does call it a 'new' covenant in Jer 31, but, this is still part of the same covenant made with Abraham, a will under which the seed of Abraham is the beneficiary--
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ. Gal 3:16
This is the covenant under which we inherit. We can't inherit unless the testator dies. So over the millenia, things happened, things changed, a side agreement was struck, people were divorced, blessings were added to the will, but this Covenant, will, always remained in effect, for which reason it is called 'everlasting.'
I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me. Jer 32:40
We talk a lot about "all".
Paul must not have truly meant "all" when he said "all things are lawful", as there are other verses where he condemns multiple things as sinful and should not be done. Doesn't context define (or at least indicate) what "all" he's talking about? Or does what does "lawful" actually mean enter in here, i.e., being under the Law vs. having the Law written our hearts are two different things? For instance, are we under the Law (so some things aren't Lawful) or does the "law written on our hearts" mean something different? Such as, doing/not doing according to Law vs. doing/not doing according the Holy Spirit leading us and placing in us a desire to please our Father? Would the latter mean all things are technically lawful, but many things still sinful (not "expedient") for someone believing and desiring to live for Him?
One more question. Have I asked too many questions? :laughing7:
In both instances when Paul uses this phrase he is speaking about meats sacrificed to idols IMO, and also IMO context is the most important part of any topical examination of the scriptures.
I love the question, because it highlights the trap of our tendency to place absolute meanings on words that do not really play out through all occurrences. Pity, Pity..... we learn again the letter kills, the spirit gives life, ears to hear, be careful how you hear, seeing but not perceiving, hearing but not understanding, etc, etc.
Definitions can only give so much>>>>>>> the heart of God must give the rest.
All things are lawful to me but not all things are expedient--I think he is saying that in the interest of holiness, right living, and a good example, we should not abuse the freedom that we have in Christ.
I don't think he is referring to things like murder, for instance, but rather to things like lifestyle issues.
Again, just the way I understand things at this time.
All of those who are in Christ, Paul said "ye are become dead to the law". He also said "but now we are delivered from the law that being dead wherein we were held".
If we have died and are in Christ then the law no longer has any dominion over us. Everything is lawful unto us but everything is not beneficial to us. We can go out and kill someone and we will still be saved but we will suffer the consequences for our actions. If we are in Christ why would we even think about such things?
Jesus said "a new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another; as I have loved you". To love God and man Jesus said on these two commandments hang ALL the laws.
Love should be the law we live by today. Christians should have the fruit of the Spirit, which is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance, AGAINST SUCH, THERE IS NO LAW (Gal. 5:22-23). Nor does any law or commandment define each of them. These nine principles of the Spirit are not against, nor do they contradict any law no matter what it is. These are the UNWRITTEN laws that are written on the heart, not on tables of stone, or even written as laws that explain each principle written in the pages of scripture. The fruits of the Spirit supersede the law of Moses. No law ever made (even the holiest) is against these nine principles of life.
So, I love every one of you people. :girlheart:
CHB
Quote from: CHB on January 25, 2012, 01:36:41 AM
Hi jabcat,
I know most do not or will not agree with this but here is how I see these things.
It has to do with who is saying it and who it is being said to. I believe after Jesus was resurrected all of the apostles including Paul, taught New Covenant which had rules and regulations with it.
Paul later came to see and understand the mystery which was a little different from the New Covenant. Under the New Covenant one had to be grafted into Israel to be saved. Had to keep the Lord's Supper. Obstain from certain things. Repent. Have faith. None of these things were required with the mystery. Paul said ALL things were lawful to him. we do not now have to be grafted into Isarael, we are in the family of God. Israel is no longer the way to salvation, Jesus is. Paul was given this understanding to teach to the Gentiles. This doesn't mean that none of the Jew's accepted this teaching because some of them did, just like some of the Gentiles still believe we are in New Covenant but I find no where that God made an old or new Covenant with Gentiles.
All of the apostles were commissioned to preach New Covenant teaching, even paul at first, but Paul turned to the Gentiles, the others didn't. The Israelites were given the New Covenant and this is what the other apostles taught. This is why you see a little difference in the writings between Paul and the others.
When I came to see this all of the scriptures made sense. Before it seemed like some of them were contridictory when we know they are not.
CHB
I actually agree with this, and let me expound upon it. I have come to believe that the Bible is written to mirror the growth of man, men (of course I include the women folk), and the church. I should be able to read the Bible from front to back and see my growth in relationship to Christ.
1) Old Covenant-Points to Christ. Rules, regulations, wrath, judgment, anxiety...doesn't that often mirror the mentality of the babes in Christ? They are trying to obey rules. They see the road signs to Christ, but are not living within the easy yoke, and the light burden of grace.
2) New Covenant-You have James preaching Law, Paul preaching grace and that inner turmoil is a threshing process. Its within that threshing that we seen even amongst the early church leaders that produces faith of great worth. Most of us experience this process within our own lives. Who here hasn't gone back and forth from law and grace in their own lives? Who hasn't been threshed with this painful refiner fire experience?
3) Mystery of grace preached by Paul-The threshing produces a faith of great worth and we live daily in grace. We move out from lawful thinking into beneficial and nonbeneficial.
I see the Bible as a cube, not as a line, a page, or a 2-D object. It has layers, dimensions and truth on multiple levels. I believe this to be one of those levels...the mirroring of the spiritually progression of faith.
I agree that the Bible shows the progression of man in Christ, from law to grace.
We are in the age of grace now because Jesus died and we have started to come into our inheritance as beneficiaries of the Covenant.
This will is written like a trust, some of the inheritance received now, the rest later when we come of age.
But, if we really could see ourselves as beneficiaries, we would realize that we can do nothing to deserve it, and just bask in the gift. We would also understand the love of God for us, and love him back. If you love someone, you try to please him and it makes you happy to please him.
1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
--Gal 3
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 25, 2012, 07:02:44 PM
The old covenant was weak, useless, hung on the cross, buried in the ground. These are not my words.
I agree because old adam/humanity trys in his own strength and power and might , to overcome sin and fails and also goes in the Babylon system too , thinking that they saved themselves , how much room is there for true praise of God if you are fooling yourself by thinking you some how are above the rest of the world , it does set up a false sense of pride
and we are humbled by Gods hand and work , finally realizing , its God who saves though Jesus Christ , giving God the proper place and glory lol
many tutors that leads to Christ is the old system of the letter of the law that kills every ounce of any life we think we have earned though self righteousness :sigh:
our debts are piled up higher with the false sense of security , that we are doing it right and everyone else is lost , its a crappy mindset set up to fail utterly ,
even what you ''Think '' you have shall be taken away from you ,
its about judging whats right .... no man knows the ways of God , but the Spirit , got to have his Spirit within , not some other one operating :thumbsup:
If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
Mar 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.
Amen rosered, I agree.
Molly,
I notice you keep going back to Abraham thinking that the promises started with him, if I am not mistaken on that? That is where the New Covenant started.
But, read what paul said concerning the Mystery. (Eph. 3:4-6) "Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ. Which in OTHER AGES WAS NOT MADE KNOWN UNTO THE SONS OF MEN, AS IT IS NOW revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets BY THE SPIRIT; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of THE SAME BODY, and partakers of HIS PROMISE IN CHRIST by the gospel."
It was through Christ that this promise was made, before the world began, not to Abraham, Israel or any one. Abraham didn't even know about this promise.
(Rom. 16:25) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to MY GOSPEL, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, WHICH WAS KEPT SECRET SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN.
This mystery that Paul talks about wasn't known until God revealed it unto Paul. This mystery is being dead in Christ and being dead to the law. What you are referring to concerning Abraham is the New Covenant which I don't believe we were/are a part of. It was only for Israel and Judah and it started with Abraham but the final revelation of salvation was given to Paul and it began before the foundation of the world.
CHB
Quote from: shawn on January 26, 2012, 04:21:53 PM
Quote from: CHB on January 25, 2012, 01:36:41 AM
Hi jabcat,
I know most do not or will not agree with this but here is how I see these things.
It has to do with who is saying it and who it is being said to. I believe after Jesus was resurrected all of the apostles including Paul, taught New Covenant which had rules and regulations with it.
Paul later came to see and understand the mystery which was a little different from the New Covenant. Under the New Covenant one had to be grafted into Israel to be saved. Had to keep the Lord's Supper. Obstain from certain things. Repent. Have faith. None of these things were required with the mystery. Paul said ALL things were lawful to him. we do not now have to be grafted into Isarael, we are in the family of God. Israel is no longer the way to salvation, Jesus is. Paul was given this understanding to teach to the Gentiles. This doesn't mean that none of the Jew's accepted this teaching because some of them did, just like some of the Gentiles still believe we are in New Covenant but I find no where that God made an old or new Covenant with Gentiles.
All of the apostles were commissioned to preach New Covenant teaching, even paul at first, but Paul turned to the Gentiles, the others didn't. The Israelites were given the New Covenant and this is what the other apostles taught. This is why you see a little difference in the writings between Paul and the others.
When I came to see this all of the scriptures made sense. Before it seemed like some of them were contridictory when we know they are not.
CHB
I actually agree with this, and let me expound upon it. I have come to believe that the Bible is written to mirror the growth of man, men (of course I include the women folk), and the church. I should be able to read the Bible from front to back and see my growth in relationship to Christ.
1) Old Covenant-Points to Christ. Rules, regulations, wrath, judgment, anxiety...doesn't that often mirror the mentality of the babes in Christ? They are trying to obey rules. They see the road signs to Christ, but are not living within the easy yoke, and the light burden of grace.
2) New Covenant-You have James preaching Law, Paul preaching grace and that inner turmoil is a threshing process. Its within that threshing that we seen even amongst the early church leaders that produces faith of great worth. Most of us experience this process within our own lives. Who here hasn't gone back and forth from law and grace in their own lives? Who hasn't been threshed with this painful refiner fire experience?
3) Mystery of grace preached by Paul-The threshing produces a faith of great worth and we live daily in grace. We move out from lawful thinking into beneficial and nonbeneficial.
I see the Bible as a cube, not as a line, a page, or a 2-D object. It has layers, dimensions and truth on multiple levels. I believe this to be one of those levels...the mirroring of the spiritually progression of faith.
passover, pentecost, and tabernacles
outer court, inner court, holy of holies
:thumbsup:
Quote from: CHB on January 26, 2012, 06:28:52 PM
Amen rosered, I agree.
Molly,
I notice you keep going back to Abraham thinking that the promises started with him, if I am not mistaken on that? That is where the New Covenant started.
But, read what paul said concerning the Mystery. (Eph. 3:4-6) "Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ. Which in OTHER AGES WAS NOT MADE KNOWN UNTO THE SONS OF MEN, AS IT IS NOW revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets BY THE SPIRIT; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of THE SAME BODY, and partakers of HIS PROMISE IN CHRIST by the gospel."
It was through Christ that this promise was made, before the world began, not to Abraham, Israel or any one. Abraham didn't even know about this promise.
(Rom. 16:25) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to MY GOSPEL, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, WHICH WAS KEPT SECRET SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN.
This mystery that Paul talks about wasn't known until God revealed it unto Paul. This mystery is being dead in Christ and being dead to the law. What you are referring to concerning Abraham is the New Covenant which I don't believe we were/are a part of. It was only for Israel and Judah and it started with Abraham but the final revelation of salvation was given to Paul and it began before the foundation of the world.
CHB
Yes I do believe we are inheriting under the everlasting Covenant given to Abraham. Paul spends all of Galatians 3 explaining how that is so. That is why I printed out the whole chapter.
Paul is not announcing something new, he is revealing what was always there, a secret hidden from ages and generations and revealed first to the Gentiles.
This Covenant with Abraham was not annulled by the 'old covenant' agreed to 430 years later by the Israelites at Sinai.
18For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. But this everlasting Covenant, reaffirmed through Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and Ephraim is the one we inherit from. It stayed into effect until it was time for the seed to inherit.
16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.We are the heirs of the everlasting Covenant made with Abraham and his seed.
29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.[Gal 3]
So, Paul says, Christ is the inheritor and I'll tell you a secret--Christ in you the hope of glory--makes you an inheritor, too!
Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ... Rom 8:17
PS I"m not disagreeing with you that it was established before the foundation of the world. But, then we watch it play itself out through history.
Quote from: Molly
Yes I do believe we are inheriting under the everlasting Covenant given to Abraham. Paul spends all of Galatians 3 explaining how that is so. That is why I printed out the whole chapter.
Paul is not announcing something new, he is revealing what was always there, a secret hidden from ages and generations and revealed first to the Gentiles.
This Covenant with Abraham was not annulled by the 'old covenant' agreed to 430 years later by the Israelites at Sinai.
18For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
But this everlasting Covenant, reaffirmed through Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and Ephraim is the one we inherit from. It stayed into effect until it was time for the seed to inherit.
16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
We are the heirs of the everlasting Covenant made with Abraham and his seed.
29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
[Gal 3]
So, Paul says, Christ is the inheritor and I'll tell you a secret--Christ in you the hope of glory--makes you an inheritor, too!
Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ... Rom 8:17
PS I"m not disagreeing with you that it was established before the foundation of the world. But, then we watch it play itself out through history.
It's ok if you disagree with me Molly that is what makes me search the scriptures as to whether these things are so. I guess no two people agree 100% of the time.
One thing that jumps out at me is the word "everlasting". I am sure you know that word means age?
This chapter is discussing the law and how foolish the Galatians are for returning to them. He asks them if they received the Spirit by works or by the hearing of faith? He asks them if they are so foolish to think that they are now made perfect by the flesh/law?
In verse 7 Paul says "Know ye therefore that THEY WHICH ARE OF FAITH, THE SAME ARE THE CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM. Under the New Covenant faith was required.
Abraham did not know anything about this mystery or secret that was hid in God, which was revealed to Paul. God told Abraham all about what was expected of him and Abraham agreed. This secret Paul speaks of he says no one knew unti it was shown to Paul.
This secret was that the whole world would be saved through Jesus Christ. It's as simple as that.
CHB
Quote from: CHBIn verse 7 Paul says "Know ye therefore that THEY WHICH ARE OF FAITH, THE SAME ARE THE CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM. Under the New Covenant faith was required.
Abraham did not know anything about this mystery or secret that was hid in God, which was revealed to Paul. God told Abraham all about what was expected of him and Abraham agreed. This secret Paul speaks of he says no one knew unti it was shown to Paul.
I guess it's debatable whether or not Abraham knew about the secret in his possession. Because Abraham had the seed. He had faith. You cannot have faith without Christ. Neither can you be righteous without Christ. Christ is the author and perfecter of our faith.
Abraham, as ourselves, was justified by faith alone.
For the Scriptures tell us, "Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith." Rom 4:3
Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. Gen 15:6
Since that word 'mystery' refers to secret knowledge known only to initiates of a group, I would argue Abraham knew, for which cause he named his son, 'laughter.'
I might also point out that Abraham never received the promise. It was not time to inherit yet. He lived in tents, looking forward to a city built without hands.--waiting for us, the children of the promise, reckoned through Isaac.
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40God having provided some better thing for us,
that they without us should not be made perfect.--Heb 11
Quote from: Molly on January 27, 2012, 01:18:32 AM
Quote from: CHBIn verse 7 Paul says "Know ye therefore that THEY WHICH ARE OF FAITH, THE SAME ARE THE CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM. Under the New Covenant faith was required.
Abraham did not know anything about this mystery or secret that was hid in God, which was revealed to Paul. God told Abraham all about what was expected of him and Abraham agreed. This secret Paul speaks of he says no one knew unti it was shown to Paul.
I guess it's debatable whether or not Abraham knew about the secret in his possession. Because Abraham had the seed. He had faith. You cannot have faith without Christ. Neither can you be righteous without Christ. Christ is the author and perfecter of our faith.
Abraham, as ourselves, was justified by faith alone.
For the Scriptures tell us, "Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith." Rom 4:3
Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. Gen 15:6
Since that word 'mystery' refers to secret knowledge known only to initiates of a group, I would argue Abraham knew, for which cause he named his son, 'laughter.'
I have to ask where Paul says the mystery was unknown until it was shown to him. I see several places where he says the mystery was made known unto him by revelation, but I cannot find the one that says no one else had received the revelation of the mystery previous too, or simultaneous to him receiving it. :dontknow:
Quote from: eaglesway on January 27, 2012, 01:59:22 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 27, 2012, 01:18:32 AM
Quote from: CHBIn verse 7 Paul says "Know ye therefore that THEY WHICH ARE OF FAITH, THE SAME ARE THE CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM. Under the New Covenant faith was required.
Abraham did not know anything about this mystery or secret that was hid in God, which was revealed to Paul. God told Abraham all about what was expected of him and Abraham agreed. This secret Paul speaks of he says no one knew unti it was shown to Paul.
I guess it's debatable whether or not Abraham knew about the secret in his possession. Because Abraham had the seed. He had faith. You cannot have faith without Christ. Neither can you be righteous without Christ. Christ is the author and perfecter of our faith.
Abraham, as ourselves, was justified by faith alone.
For the Scriptures tell us, "Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith." Rom 4:3
Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. Gen 15:6
Since that word 'mystery' refers to secret knowledge known only to initiates of a group, I would argue Abraham knew, for which cause he named his son, 'laughter.'
I have to ask where Paul says the mystery was unknown until it was shown to him. I see several places where he says the mystery was made known unto him by revelation, but I cannot find the one that says no one else had received the revelation of the mystery previous too, or simultaneous to him receiving it. :dontknow:
What Paul actually says is that the mystery was
hidden from ages and generations, which would make sense, because a secret is by definition hidden--and this one only known to initiates.
Do not know how I missed all these other posts today ! but I did , seems the update link does not work ??
but great points Shawn , Molly and CHB , Eaglesway ,redhotmagma .. been mostly reading them all
Abraham= father of faith , faith its the big thing , mixed with faith works , makes you a believer , not just a hearer only
without ''FAITH '' its IMPOSSIBLE to please God ... thats Mollys point right ?
those children in the wilderness wanted meat and lacked faith , they were telling God what to do and what they wanted from him , not Letting God do His desire with them
Jesus on the cross asked if the ''cup could pass '' from Him , but not His will or desire but Gods be done
used these two different examples for the faith with works point.... :)
Yes, that is what I read that Paul is saying. I was simply asking where Paul says the mystery was made known exclusively/first to Him. I personally don't think there is any place where that is written.
The reason that matters to me is this. I believe Peter, John and Paul, indeed, all of the 12 and their "Timothys" through them- all received the SAME GOSPEL, once for all- the mystery of the kingdom, with all of its incorporate facets(the mystery of the Bride, the mystery of the Gentile believers inclusion into Israel, the mystery of "anakephalaiomai"-summing up all things in Christ, the mystery of the salvation of all, etc.) Their are twelve foundation stones in the holy city. They are all joined to the chief cornerstone, the Logos. They all received the SAME GOSPEL. They were taught the meanings of the parables. They received the anointing that teaches a person "all things". Jesus spent over 40 days teaching a large group of them, after his resurrection.
"hidden from the ages past" is accompanied by "now made known", and as Paul speaks to the Ephesians he routinely declares "we" and "us"..... In all wisdom and prudence He made know unto US the mystery of His will....
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
(Eph 1:5-12)
I see the distribution of the mystery as having been broad within the early churches- only receding back into the shadows in subsequent generations, primarily due to the rise of Roman Catholicism and the spread of gnosticism, apostasy and the doctrine of the Nico(dominate)-laitans(people). From the beginning, however, it was the gospel Peter preached to everyone (Acts 3:14-21). Paul also preached the "mystery" of the gospel as part and parcel of it(the gospel), to all- and it was included in the foundation doctrines of the writer of Hebrews(resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment). Jesus included it in his parables as the "mystery of the kingdom." I personally believe the reason why the salvation of all is spoken of so frequently though-out the scriptures is that it was the very gospel they preached from the beginning, not "another gospel within the gospel". For this reason (IMO) Luke includes the salutation of the angels "good news of glad tidings to all people" in the first proclamation of the "good news". Obviously there were those seeking to subvert this open declaration from the beginning, making the many exhortations and explanations to remain steadfast, to the "common salvation" that was delivered "once for all"(Jude :3).
Jude also spoke of the mystery in these terms, (which John [1 John 2:20] also used) saying, "You know all things, once for all..."
Interestingly enough, the phrase "once for all" occurs 4 other times in the NT referring exclusively to Christ's death for sinners...
Rom 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all[/b]; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
Heb 7:27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
Heb 9:12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
These verses lead to one happy conclusion
1Jn2:2..... And he is (through one offering of his blood)the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
As to whether Abraham knew the secret, well.... as God spoke to him that his seed would be more than the stars of heaven or the sands of the sea(ever do that calculation?-WAY more than the number of people who have lived thus far :o) I think he received much more, as God's friend, than the few words we have written before us that tell the story of his life in a few pages- but who really knows? :dontknow:
I agree that the mystery is not routinely taught in churches, nor do people understand that they are inheritors under a covenant, nor why they are inheritors, nor what they are inheriting.
If these things were taught and understood...well...the world might change...
But, we're back in the dark ages of Christianity.
25Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
--Col 1
Yea, we are in the dark ages again alright, but perhaps the darkest hour is before the dawn and restoration of the declaration of the true gospel of Jesus Christ is the first rays breaking over the horizon :o)
Genesis 1:5 ... And there was evening, and there was morning — the first day.
God's day begins at night!
Ever do a study on the great men of the Bible that "rose early?"
Quote from: eaglesway on January 27, 2012, 07:09:32 AM
Yea, we are in the dark ages again alright, but perhaps the darkest hour is before the dawn and restoration of the declaration of the true gospel of Jesus Christ is the first rays breaking over the horizon :o)
:cloud9: AMEN
Quote from: eaglesway on January 27, 2012, 01:59:22 AM
I have to ask where Paul says the mystery was unknown until it was shown to him. I see several places where he says the mystery was made known unto him by revelation, but I cannot find the one that says no one else had received the revelation of the mystery previous too, or simultaneous to him receiving it. :dontknow:
Hi Eaglesway,
First mention of the mystery is in (Rom. 16:25-26). Paul said he mentioned it briefly here.
(Eph. 3:4-5) Whereby, when you read, ye may understand MY KNOWLEDGE IN THE MYSTERY OF CHRIST. Which in OTHER AGES WAS NOT MADE KNOWN unto the sons of men, as it is NOW REVEALED unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.
(Eph. 3:7-8) Whereof, I WAS MADE A MINISTER. UNTO ME, who am less than the least, OF ALL SAINTS, IS THIS GRACE GIVEN, THAT I SHOULD PREACH AMONG THE GENTILES the unsearchable riches of Christ.
(Eph. 3:9) {still Paul talking} And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, WHICH FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD HATH BEEN HID IN GOD, who creted all things.
(Col. 1:25-26) WHEREOF I AM MADE A MINISTER, according to the dispensation of God WHICH IS GIVEN TO ME for you. to fulfill the word of God; {Heb. fully to preach} Even the mystery WHICH HATH BEEN HID FROM AGES AND FROM GENERATIONS, BUT NOW IS MADE MANIFEST TO HIS SAINTS.
I think this mystery is still hidden because most people still don't know about it. Paul wasn't able to preach this because it got him put in prison and everyone left him. They began to say that Paul was mad, or crazy.
Can you imagine what people thought about Paul teaching that the world was going to be saved in his day and that no one needed israel or Abraham only Jesus Christ? Especially when all that had been known for 4 thousand years was one had to become an Israelite to be saved. Just think what Paul had to endure back then compared to us who believe in the salvation of all today. Most people still think they have to be connected to Israel some how in some way. I think this mystery is not meant to be taught today but later.
To me, the mystery is simple, it just shows that all of the things that were law and regulations from the beginning were shadows that led up to Jesus. We don't have to keep any laws, we don't have to become an Israelite, just believe that Jesus accomplished it all. This is the only thing that connects us with Abraham, he believed in God. And of course our DNA.
Folks, all we need is Jesus Christ and him crucified. :bgdance:
This is just my understanding of the whole thing.
CHB
Charles Chauncy (1705–1787) was an American Congregational clergyman in Boston. He was ordained as a minister of the First Church, Boston, in 1727 and remained in that pulpit for 60 years. Next to Jonathan Edwards, his great opponent, Chauncy was probably the most influential clergyman of his time in New England. As an intellectual he distrusted emotionalism and opposed the revivalist preaching of the Great Awakening in his Seasonable Thoughts on the State of Religion in New England (1743) and other pamphlets. He became the leader of the "Old Lights" or liberals in theology in the doctrinal disputes following the Great Awakening. He was also the leader in the opposition to the establishment of an Anglican bishopric in the American colonies, writing his Compleat View of Episcopacy (1771) and other works on the subject. A firm believer in the colonial cause, he clearly set forth the political philosophy of the American Revolution in sermons and pamphlets during the period. After the war he defended the doctrine of Universalism in two anonymous tracts: Salvation for All Men (1782) and The Mystery Hid from Ages and Generations (1784).
Charles Chauncy was the leading opponent of the Great Awakening, the Protestant evangelical movement that swept through the British North American colonies between 1739 and 1745.
Chauncy was born into the elite Puritan merchant class that ruled Boston. His great-grandfather, Charles Chauncy, after whom he was named, was the second president of Harvard. His father was a successful Boston merchant. As one biographer puts it, "Chauncy was first and foremost a traditional Puritan cleric.... As a rule, Chauncy throughout his life supported the clergy who observed the traditional decorum of the New England [ruling elite] way" (Charles H. Lippy, Seasonable Revolutionary: The Mind of Charles Chauncy (Chicago: Nelson Hall, 1981, p. 12). Although this Puritan stock had been dissenters in England (thus the liberals), in America they were the Standing Order, the ruling elite (and thus the conservatives against other religious groups like the Baptists and Quakers). Chauncy was thus a staunch and loyal supporter of the political, social, religious, and economic merchant class status quo.
Chauncy received both his undergraduate degree and his master's in theology from Harvard. He was ordained at the First Church in Boston in 1727, where he spent the rest of his life: 60 years as pastor of "Old Brick," as his church was called. It was the oldest Congregational church in Boston and one of the most important in New England.
In his book, Old Brick: Charles Chauncy of Boston, 1705–1787, Edward M. Griffin presents a thumbnail summary of Chauncy's life and work:
[Chauncy] played a role in the major events of his time: not only the Great Awakening, but also the French and Indian wars, the controversy over the proposed establishment of the Anglican episcopacy in America, political events from the Stamp Act through the Revolution, the rise of the Enlightenment, the growth of "liberal Protestantism," social changes in Boston, and the development of Unitarianism.
Chauncy organized American clergy and corresponded with English dissenting clergy to protest and prevent the encroachment of the Church of England in its colonies. Although his effort to unify the clergy ultimately failed, Chauncy received an honorary Doctor of Divinity degree from the University of Edinburgh. He was a charter member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and was recognized by the Massachusetts Historical Society (when his portrait was hung there) as "eminent for his talents, learning, and lover of liberty, civil and religious." He was, in short, honored as one of the leading intellects of 18th-century America. He was also an unapologetic elitist. Biographer Lippy wrote that Chauncy believed "the laymen should simply follow the lead of the clergy who were, after all, the theological professionals."
Chauncy published his major theology work, The Mystery Hid from Ages and Generations, in 1785, two decades after he had completed it. He had held back publication because he recognized the rigorous logic of his arguments ended up affirming an innate moral sense in man, a belief in human free will, an affirmation of universal salvation and thus the spiritual equality of all. These claims undermined the doctrinal traditions of his own Calvinist faith tradition and the social hierarchy he extolled from the beginning to the end of his life. The construction of a rational, Enlightenment foundation for a theologically progressive but deeply embedded, socially conservative liberal faith tradition began with Charles Chauncy. Thanks in no small part to Chauncy's life and work, by 1804 a liberal Christian view was the dominant one in Boston. This complex conservative man had inadvertently sparked a new American liberal theological tradition: American Unitarianism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Chauncy_(1705%E2%80%931787)
Here is the book. You can read it online. Could someone read it and tell me what it says? There are 'f's' instead of 's's' so it takes some getting used to.
The mystery hid from ages and Generations, made manifest by the Gospel-Revelation
or
THE SALVATION of ALL MEN
http://www.archive.org/stream/mysteryhidfromag00chau#page/n9/mode/2up
Chauncy published his major theology work, The Mystery Hid from Ages and Generations, in 1785, two decades after he had completed it. He had held back publication because he recognized the rigorous logic of his arguments ended up affirming an innate moral sense in man, a belief in human free will, an affirmation of universal salvation and thus the spiritual equality of all. These claims undermined the doctrinal traditions of his own Calvinist faith tradition and the social hierarchy he extolled from the beginning to the end of his life.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Molly,
I have never heard of Charles Chauncy before. I don't believe we have free will nor do I believe in Calvinist teaching. I know very little about Unitarianism.
Dr. Martin is the first one to introduce me to this. There are some things I feel that even he has missed concerning the mystery. I don't believe any of us...myself especially...will fully understand it until we are all in all.
The New Covenant and the Mystery
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d920501.pdf
CHB
Maybe doing as good as you can/understand is the mystery :winkgrin:
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 27, 2012, 06:56:19 PM
Maybe doing as good as you can/understand is the mystery :winkgrin:
We can't be righteous without Christ.
Certainly there is a glimmer of him in everyone.
But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! Mat 6:23
After the gospel was preached for the first time.
The people received it as witnessed by the Holy Spirit.
Left without further instruction. They thought wow we can get drunk.
We can be gluttons at the festival table.
We can fornicate with any one we want even our own family.
We don't even have to hide it we can boast about it.
So every time you preach the gospel properly the religious person
They should react by saying.
So I can go and rape and steal and still go heaven.
If every one gets saved.
Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.
So then, when you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat, 21 for when you are eating, some of you go ahead with your own private suppers. As a result, one person remains hungry and another gets drunk. 22 Don't you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God by humiliating those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? Certainly not in this matter!
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father's wife. 2 And you are proud!
Quote from: dajomaco on January 28, 2012, 09:24:45 PM
So I can go and rape and steal and still go heaven.
If every one gets saved.
Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.
Although mercy will triumph over judgment in the end, only a fool disregards the wrath of God, or the discipline of God.
"It would be better for him were a millstone tied around his neck and he was cast into the sea"
"You shall not escaqpe until you have paid the last penny"
"Fall on the rock and be broken, lest the rock fall upon you and grinds you into powder."
Not to mention the immediate cost of sin- a tormented mind and a ship wrecked life.
It is the Lord, the Sovereign Ruler, Who calls forth loyalty and obedient service.
Believe all flesh is being judged as corrupt /rotten,
remember how King David was forgiven of God , but suffered many things in his own household
for his disobedience /sin
his baby died and another son raped a daughter and the other son killed that son no peace in the fleshy realm ....
no we do not get off scott free , to think like that is just plain foolish
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
It is the Lord, the Sovereign Ruler, Who calls forth loyalty and obedient service.
Genesis 15:1 "After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward."
Genesis 21:17 "And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is."
Genesis 26:24 "And the LORD appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not, for I am with thee, and will bless thee, and multiply thy seed for my servant Abraham's sake."
Genesis 46:3 "And he said, I am God, the God of thy father: fear not to go down into Egypt; for I will there make of thee a great nation."
Exodus 20:20 "And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not."
Deuteronomy 1:21 "Behold, the LORD thy God hath set the land before thee: go up and possess it, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath said unto thee; fear not, neither be discouraged."
Deuteronomy 20:3 "And shall say unto them, Hear, O Israel, ye approach this day unto battle against your enemies: let not your hearts faint, fear not, and do not tremble, neither be ye terrified because of them."
Deuteronomy 31:6 "Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee."
Deuteronomy 31:8 "And the LORD, he it is that doth go before thee; he will be with thee, he will not fail thee, neither forsake thee: fear not, neither be dismayed."
Joshua 8:1 "And the LORD said unto Joshua, Fear not, neither be thou dismayed: take all the people of war with thee, and arise, go up to Ai: see, I have given into thy hand the king of Ai, and his people, and his city, and his land."
Joshua 10:25 "And Joshua said unto them, Fear not, nor be dismayed, be strong and of good courage: for thus shall the LORD do to all your enemies against whom ye fight."
Judges 6:10 "And I said unto you, I am the LORD your God; fear not the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but ye have not obeyed my voice."
Ruth 3:11 "And now, my daughter, fear not; I will do to thee all that thou requirest: for all the city of my people doth know that thou art a virtuous woman."
I Kings 17:13 "And Elijah said unto her, Fear not; go and do as thou hast said: but make me thereof a little cake first, and bring it unto me, and after make for thee and for thy son."
II Kings 6:16 "And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them."
I Chronicles 28:20 "And David said to Solomon his son, Be strong and of good courage, and do it: fear not, nor be dismayed: for the LORD God, even my God, will be with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee, until thou hast finished all the work for the service of the house of the LORD."
II Chronicles 20:17 "Ye shall not need to fight in this battle: set yourselves, stand ye still, and see the salvation of the LORD with you, O Judah and Jerusalem: fear not, nor be dismayed; to morrow go out against them: for the LORD will be with you."
Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you."
Isaiah 41:13 "For I the LORD thy God will hold thy right hand, saying unto thee, Fear not; I will help thee."
Isaiah 41:14 "Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel."
Isaiah 43:1 "But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine."
Isaiah 43:5 "Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west."
Isaiah 44:2 "Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen."
Isaiah 54:4 "Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more."
Jeremiah 46:27 "But fear not thou, O my servant Jacob, and be not dismayed, O Israel: for, behold, I will save thee from afar off, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and be in rest and at ease, and none shall make him afraid."
Daniel 10:12 "Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words."
Daniel 10:19 "And said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee, be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me."
Joel 2:21 "Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things."
Zechariah 8:13 "And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing: fear not, but let your hands be strong."
Matthew 1:20 "But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost."
Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Luke 1:13 "But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John."
Luke 2:10 "And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people."
Luke 5:10 "And so was also James, and John, the sons of Zebedee, which were partners with Simon. And Jesus said unto Simon, Fear not; from henceforth thou shalt catch men."
Luke 8:50 "But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole."
Luke 12:7 "But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows."
Luke 12:32 "Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom."
John 12:15 "Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt."
Acts 27:24 "Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee."
Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last."
Quote from: eaglesway on January 28, 2012, 10:43:25 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on January 28, 2012, 09:24:45 PM
So I can go and rape and steal and still go heaven.
If every one gets saved.
Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.
Although mercy will triumph over judgment in the end, only a fool disregards the wrath of God, or the discipline of God.
"It would be better for him were a millstone tied around his neck and he was cast into the sea"
"You shall not escaqpe until you have paid the last penny"
"Fall on the rock and be broken, lest the rock fall upon you and grinds you into powder."
Not to mention the immediate cost of sin- a tormented mind and a ship wrecked life.
My point is that a religious person believes in Jesus
because by doing so, and doing it properly he won't go to hell.
He behaves in a righteous manor
to avoid the punishments of unrighteousness.
He can neither love righteousness or Jesus.
If there is no punishment for unrighteousness why be righteous.
If there is no hell why believe in Jesus.
If there is no hell and he still follows Jesus.
Is that not a true fellowship?
If there is no punishment for unrighteousness.
and he still acts in a righteous manor.
Is this not true righteousness.
Any man that thinks he can please God is a fool.
For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
(Rom 8:6-9)
Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more.
(1Th 4:1)
(Phil. 2:13) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
CHB
Col 1:25-27 Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God, that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints, to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
25 of which I became a dispenser, in accord with the administration of God, which is granted to me for you, to complete the word of God --
26 the secret which has been concealed from the eons and from the generations, yet now was made manifest to His saints,
None of the saints knew about this before. Paul said "I BECAME A DISPENSER." He said "it was GRANTED TO ME FOR YOU."
(Eph. 3:3)
2 since you surely hear of the administration of the grace of God that is given to me for you,3 for by revelation the secret is made known to me (according as I write before, in brief,
4 by which you who are reading are able to apprehend my understanding in the secret of the Christ,
5 which, in other generations, is not made known to the sons of humanity as it was now revealed to His holy apostles and prophets): in spirit
(Eph. 3:7-8) Whereof I was made a minister
unto me, is this grace given, that I should preach AMONG THE GENTILES the unsearchable riches of Christ.
Peter also said that Pauls teachings were hard to take, but scripture nonetheless. He may be talking about the mystery here.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 29, 2012, 07:14:55 AM
For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
(Rom 8:6-9)
Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more.
(1Th 4:1)
I just want you to know how much this post blessed me Eaglesway , Thank you for this :HeartThrob: I just pondered this for awhile and decided to speak up
Gal 5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and
you shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put
my spirit within you, and
cause you to walk in my statutes, and
you shall keep my judgments, and do [them].
Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore
now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
its that mindset and matter of heart that change us by the Spirit of Gods grace named Jesus Christ :girlheart:
now about the mystery of the ages :winkgrin:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on January 29, 2012, 04:29:47 AM
Any man that thinks he can please God is a fool.
I must be a Fool and it's not even April yet.
I find more bitter than death the woman who is a snare, whose heart is a trap and whose hands are chains. The man who pleases God will escape her, but the sinner she will ensnare.
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
And do not forget to do good and to share with others,
for with such sacrifices God is pleased.
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people, for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.
brothers and sisters, we instructed you how to live in order to please God,
Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
(Phil. 2:13) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
For it is God in you.
Which worketh both to will and to do of His good pleasure.
For it is God.
For it is God.
For it is God.
For it is God.
[size=8pt]Heb 13:16 But do not forget to do good and to share, for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. [/size]
For it is God.
Of course it is God, all things are of God, yet, is it God to be tromping around in army boots all the time? Within the love of God, it is possible to please your Father, because of love, and the beauty of it. It isn't a matter of pleasing Him in the flesh, or from effort, or to earn a place. It is about the mutuality of love between two beings. He is one. I am another, yet....we are one. This is sonship. I do please my Father, because I love Him. In the Bride, I do please my Lord, because I love Him.Yes, it is God because all is God and I am a son, a drop of water in the rushing of many waters, a still small voice in the "Today, if you hear my voice". We are his children and He is nearer to us than our own souls. In Him we live and move and breathe and have our beings. But he has given me a heart, I love Him with it...... and He loves me. I do not fear, nor am I fool, to please Him whom I love---and all the more because it is God in me to do it.
We are incapable of pleasing God.
Period.
The heart of man is deceitful.
The new heart, HE gracefully places within us.
It's HIS OWN heart, capable of true love, that is forever outgoing instead of self-appreciating.
Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no guile.
The heart of MAN is what it is, as you said. Know one can know it , except the Lord, whose eyes are as flames of fire.....Therefore, "Why do we go on judging before the time?"
The same man who said, "in my FLESH dwells no good thing" said, "This one thing I do...". I love these paradoxes because(IMO) they keep us from getting arrogant and stagnant.
1Ti 1:5-7 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, (6) from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, (7) desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.
1Pe 1:22-24 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, (23) having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever
I have entered into a covenant wherein I have received both a NEW HEART(well) and a NEW SPIRIT(water). These are also working together with God in me to renew my mind(land) and make it a fruitful field.
My body will be renewed at a later time.
I am a new creation in Christ Jesus. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death.
Who shall set me free from the "body of this death'"(the flesh and the pharoah under whom I have labored in pain and condemnation)? THANK GOD FOR JESUS!!
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus who walk according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh. If I look in the wrong mirror- I see that old man always coming for me. If I, with unveiled face, behold as in a mirror the image of the Lord, I am transformed into that same image(inwardly, purified, sanctified by love), by the Spirit, who is the Lord.
I HAVE DIED. The life I live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the son of God.
I know who I am. I have no fear. I have entered into the glorious liberty, the blessed freedom of the sons of God.
My Father loves me. My sins are washed away. Old things have passed away, behold- all things become new.
Create in me a Clean Heart O God, and Renew a Right Spirit within me!
He put the robe on me, He is having a feast, I am home, having been dead, now I am alive.
Psa 51:12-13 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,
And uphold me by Your generous Spirit.
Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,
And sinners shall be converted to You.
Nice post, Eaglesway. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on January 31, 2012, 10:24:25 AM
Nice post, Eaglesway. :thumbsup:
second that :thumbsup:
Quote from: eaglesway on January 31, 2012, 08:56:50 AM
Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no guile.
The heart of MAN is what it is, as you said. Know one can know it , except the Lord, whose eyes are as flames of fire.....Therefore, "Why do we go on judging before the time?"
The same man who said, "in my FLESH dwells no good thing" said, "This one thing I do...". I love these paradoxes because(IMO) they keep us from getting arrogant and stagnant.
1Ti 1:5-7 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, (6) from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, (7) desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.
1Pe 1:22-24 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, (23) having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever
Here Peter is speaking to the Jew's about the New Covenant.
Quote from: eaglesway
I have entered into a covenant wherein I have received both a NEW HEART(well) and a NEW SPIRIT(water). These are also working together with God in me to renew my mind(land) and make it a fruitful field.
Which Covenant are you referring to?
Quote from: eaglesway
My body will be renewed at a later time.
I am a new creation in Christ Jesus. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death.
Very true.
Quote from: eaglesway
Who shall set me free from the "body of this death'"(the flesh and the pharoah under whom I have labored in pain and condemnation)? THANK GOD FOR JESUS!!
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus who walk according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh. If I look in the wrong mirror- I see that old man always coming for me. If I, with unveiled face, behold as in a mirror the image of the Lord, I am transformed into that same image(inwardly, purified, sanctified by love), by the Spirit, who is the Lord.
I HAVE DIED. The life I live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the son of God.
I know who I am. I have no fear. I have entered into the glorious liberty, the blessed freedom of the sons of God.
My Father loves me. My sins are washed away. Old things have passed away, behold- all things become new.
Create in me a Clean Heart O God, and Renew a Right Spirit within me!
He put the robe on me, He is having a feast, I am home, having been dead, now I am alive.
Psa 51:12-13 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,
And uphold me by Your generous Spirit.
Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,
And sinners shall be converted to You.
Amen to this. The way I see this is: If we are dead to sin, dead in Christ. If we have been resurrected when Christ was resurrected and are now sitting on the right hand of God in Christ. If it is Christ working in us, then we no longer have any works to perform, it is ALL ABOUT CHRIST. We have decreased and Christ has increased.
If you are under a Covenant then you have works you must perform, the Lords Supper, baptism, be grafted into Israel, have faith. Paul later came to see that the faith that we have is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God.
CHB
No one knows the thoughts of a man except his spirit.
No one knows thoughts of God except his spirit.
God freely gave me his spirit so that I might know him.
My spirit uses my thoughts as a way of describing God to me.
God the father Jesus the Holy spirit and my spirit.
For it is God. For it is God. For it is God. For it is God.
My spirit is not God
Quote from: dajomaco on January 31, 2012, 07:54:11 PM
No one knows the thoughts of a man except his spirit.
No one knows thoughts of God except his spirit.
God freely gave me his spirit so that I might know him.
My spirit uses my thoughts as a way of describing God to me.
God the father Jesus the Holy spirit and my spirit.
For it is God. For it is God. For it is God. For it is God.
My spirit is not God
But isn't it of or from God?
CHB
The two shall become one. The seed planted is the spirit of God.
Quote from: CHB on February 01, 2012, 04:52:11 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on January 31, 2012, 07:54:11 PM
No one knows the thoughts of a man except his spirit.
No one knows thoughts of God except his spirit.
God freely gave me his spirit so that I might know him.
My spirit uses my thoughts as a way of describing God to me.
God the father Jesus the Holy spirit and my spirit.
For it is God. For it is God. For it is God. For it is God.
My spirit is not God
But isn't it of or from God?
CHB
There is God God is all in all
God the father God the holy spirit God the son.
My new spirit was given to me by God.
I do not nor does the bible imply that my new spirit is called God the Father.
I do not nor does the bible imply that my new spirit is called God the Holy spirit.
I do not nor does the bible imply that my new spirit is called God the Son Jesus.
All though given to me by God .
The new man with the new spirit.Is not God.
There will be for ever and ever a distinction between me and God even though we will be all in all.
This distinction I call my spirit.
My spirit is now training my mind.
This training is between me and God and my spirit.
Both God and my new spirit are My personell trainers.
They are not training my flesh but they are training my Mind.
I can tell how well the training is going by looking at my new heart.
God is so pleased when the training is going well.
Christ in you is the hope of glory. God was in Christ reconcilling the world to himself
The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
And since we are his children, we are his heirs. In fact, together with Christ we are heirs of God's glory.
--Rom 8:16,17
Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."
Well what Jesus says matters most to me and after reading John 17 the Lords prayer to the Father I know we are being formed as new creatures in Christ , so you can argue many scriptures with other scriptures all day long , its seems the Sword / Word of God is against the sword / Word of God with many using different scriptures
to me , they can all be reconciled
Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me,
and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:
that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
and we know God is Spirit and Truth and God is Love and God is a consuming fire etc ...... :)
To me they can all be reconciled..... men.
:HeartThrob: Amen ... men :thumbsup:
My typoing is atroshus :laughing7:
looks like you've got it down pretty well :happy3:
Quote from: eaglesway on February 03, 2012, 09:30:43 AM
To me they can all be reconciled..... men.
You can reconcile me for all eternity but I will not be called God the father.
I will not be called God the Holy Spirit and I will not be called Jesus
I will be all in all.
When I throw my crown down before him and praise his Holy name.
I will not be praising myself.
All eternity I will sing HIS praise.
Actually I think I'll start singing now.
Let's sing together....
And they *sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth." Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing." And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
(Rev 5:9-13)
Imagine singing praise to a worthy recipient.
Our praise will be made all powerful.
We will actually be praising Him who is worthy.
We will see and know why he is worthy of our praise.
Imagine him delighting in our praise our praise is worthy .