ROSH HASHANA BEGAN AT SUNDOWN TODAY

[WhiteWings]

Molly I wasn't refering to the Jews but I can see why you misunderstood me.
If Jesus is the Messiah, prove it.
That proof is in the OT. All sort of refrences and patterns to Him. That's why the OT is needed.

Though many modern rabbis --and some ancient rabbis-- say the sufferings described are those of the nation of Israel, most ancient rabbis said it refers to Messiah's sufferings.

It's also said Jews reject Jesus because Christianity attributed perfection to Jesus.
Talking about body/flesh (not spiritual). Jews expect a wreck. Sick. Bad looks. etc. (see another thread)

[WhiteWings]

BTW why don't we call the Bible Torah? Bible is another pagan reference. Byblos was Phoenician city with the largest library of it's time. The city was in honor to their godess of wisdom. Yep, you guessed it Easter/Isthar.

[Molly]

If Jesus is the Messiah, prove it.
That proof is in the OT. All sort of refrences and patterns to Him. That's why the OT is needed

Exactly.  But the Protestants have always understood all of this.  That's why the first Bibles printed in the vernacular contained both Old and New Testaments.

Luther started with the NT and then followed that ten years later with the OT.

The Luther Bible is a German Bible translation by Martin Luther, first printed with both testaments in 1534. This translation became a force in shaping the Modern High German language. The project absorbed Luther's later years[1] The new translation was very widely disseminated thanks to the printing press. [2] [Wikipedia]


ww, I just want to add that I believe we are in a sort of dark ages of Christian understanding.  Until the 20th century when this understanding started getting lost, most Protestants were raised on the whole Bible and all these concepts you refer to, but much of that has now been lost.

ps We are in dark ages of science, too. 

[WhiteWings]

ww, I just want to add that I believe we are in a sort of dark ages of Christian understanding.  Until the 20th century when this understanding started getting lost, most Protestants were raised on the whole Bible and all these concepts you refer to, but much of that has now been lost.

Amos 8 [ACV]
11 Behold, the days come, says lord LORD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of LORD.

[Molly]

ww, I just want to add that I believe we are in a sort of dark ages of Christian understanding.  Until the 20th century when this understanding started getting lost, most Protestants were raised on the whole Bible and all these concepts you refer to, but much of that has now been lost.

Amos 8 [ACV]
11 Behold, the days come, says lord LORD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of LORD.

Then he said, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but now I will go and wake him up." [John 11:11]


Ask you of the LORD rain in the time of the latter rain; so the LORD shall make bright clouds, and give them showers of rain, to every one grass in the field. [Zech 10:1]

[Molly]

The Rabbis observed these exceptions to God's general law, whereby He "sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust" Matthew 5:49, though expressing it in their way hyperbolically; , "In the time when Israel doeth the will of God, He doeth their will; so that if one man alone, and not the others, wants rain, He will give rain to that one man; and if a man wants one herb alone in his field or garden, and not another, He will give rain to that one herb; as one of the saints used to say, This plot of ground wants rain, and that plot of ground wants not rain" (Cyril).

Spiritually the rain is divine doctrine bedewing the mind and making it fruitful, as the rain doth the earth. So Moses saith, "My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distill as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb and as the showers upon the grass" Deuteronomy 32:2. Cyril: "The law of Moses and the prophets were the former rain."

--Barnes notes on the Bible

[fire walker]

Not to wander off topic, this reply is related to the topic of this tread:

Some argue that Constantine was the first Pope
of the RC Church, weather he was the first Pope or wasn't makes no difference to me; Wasn't it Constantine who changed
some of the Jewish feasts into Pagan holidays like Christmas,  Easter, Halloween which the Catholic church celibrated as  All Saints day, and come along with Good Friday and on all Fridays the laity of the church were supposed to eat fish only, and other Pagan Holidays as well. wasn't Constantine the one who brought all the Pagan Holidays into the Church
when the Catholic Church become the FIRST State sponcered and official Church religion of Rome?

PS.  I do understand that Easter Pagan as it is, is supposed to be celibrating the Ressurection of Jesus Christ .


Peace,
Fire Walker

[Molly]

For he has rescued us from the kingdom of darkness..[Col 1:13]


to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.' [Acts 26:18]


For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.[Eph 6:12]



[this dark] "world"
G165
αἰών
aiōn

[Molly]

But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. [1 Cor 6:11]

...and those whom he justified he also glorified. [Rom 8:30]

[WhiteWings]

Not to wander off topic, this reply is related to the topic of this tread:

Some argue that Constantine was the first Pope of the RC Church,

According to the RCC Apostle Peter was the first pope and Constantine the 88th. Of course that view is highly disputed outside the RCC.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm

weather he was the first Pope or wasn't makes no difference to me; Wasn't it Constantine who changed
some of the Jewish feasts into Pagan holidays like Christmas,  Easter, Halloween which the Catholic church celibrated as  All Saints day, and come along with Good Friday and on all Fridays the laity of the church were supposed to eat fish only, and other Pagan Holidays as well. wasn't Constantine the one who brought all the Pagan Holidays into the Church
when the Catholic Church become the FIRST State sponcered and official Church religion of Rome?

I think Contantine made things official and added new stuff. But false doctrine entered before that time.


http://www.religioustolerance.org/sabbath.htm
http://www.sabbath-day.info/
http://www.kencollins.com/answers/question-42.htm

[Molly]

1 Peter 1


1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

7That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

13Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

14As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

15But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

17And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

22Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

25But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

[Molly]

Our faith is PROOF of who we are in Christ Jesus.  That is why it gives us such assurance and certainty.  Which faith of Christ we have shared in Christ and by Christ with all the saints [and that includes the OT saints] from the foundation of the world.


Now faith is the assurance that what we hope for will come about and the certainty that what we cannot see exists. [Heb 11:1]



8Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. [1 Peter 1]





Let this be recorded for future generations, so that a people not yet born will praise the LORD. [Psa 102:18]

[Molly]

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.[Rom 3:21]

Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses. [Acts 13:39]

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.[Rom 3:28]

Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, [Rom 5:1]

[Molly]

When they refer to scripture in the New Testament, they are talking about the Old Testament, because there was not yet any New Testament complied.

I know that makes logical sense, and it may even be true   :laugh2:

Another thought;  surely God knew from the very beginning what He would have written down for us in the coming years - what would end up as our "canon".  The Holy Spirit would have known what was "coming" when Paul was inspired to write "all scripture is inspired and useful for..."  You know, the timelessness/other dimensions thing of God, Him being outside those limitations, etc.  So maybe He was really talking about more than the OT, at least in some instances, and especially the above quote of Paul, at least .

Yes. :laughing7:

I'm wondering... Are you able to see yet that the Old Testament saints [holy ones] had Christ?  I can't tell becaiuse I never seem to get any feedback on this from the forum.

I have realized that by some miracle I was taught the Old Testament through the lens of the Grace of the New Testament, and that is hardly ever the case it seems.

I knew Jesus before I knew anthing else.

I can't tell how  this is being received or if it is being received or if it even makes sense to anyone.  Or if everyone already knows this.

People do seem to get caught up in Law vs Grace, as if they are at odds, but the OT  prophets knew Christ, they talked with him, they wrote his words down,they had his faith --they  accessed the Law through the Grace and Truth of the Lord Jesus Christ.



Now therefore arise, O LORD God, into thy resting place, thou, and the ark of thy strength: let thy priests, O LORD God, be clothed with salvation, and let thy saints rejoice in goodness.
--2 Chron 6:41

[jabcat]

 :bigGrin:   How close is this to what you see?

(from Free Republic)

How did the Old Testament saints get saved?
Bible Bulletin Board  -  John Macarthur

Question

Since people can be saved only through Christ, how did the Old Testament saints get saved?

Answer

Through Christ. Through Jesus Christ.

Question continues

But, Christ did not die until after they died.

Answer

Oh, you mean, what did they have to do at the moment to be saved?

Everyone is saved through Christ. He died for the sins of the world. For them, it was future. For us, it is past, but it was still through Christ. It was His death, His sacrifice. It atoned for the sins of the OT saints as well as the NT saints. And, every time they sacrificed a lamb, and every time they sacrificed a ram, and every time they sacrificed a turtle dove or a pigeon, every time they sacrificed any animal, it was the picture of Christ, the picture of Christ, the picture of Christ. So, they had to know that there was coming one who would pay the penalty for their sins, one ultimate sacrifice. Christ, alone, can save.

Now, the means for salvation has always been the same: Faith. And, at any given point in the unfolding revelation of the Word of God, salvation came through faith, believing God. Abraham believed God. It was counted him for righteousness. What did he believe? He believed as much as God had revealed. And, God had revealed even by that time that he was sinner and that the only savior was God, and that God would pay the penalty for his sin. Now, he didn't understand all there was to know about Jesus Christ, but he understood enough to know that he was a sinner and needed a savior and God would provide a savior. That is why it says in Hebrews 12, that Moses could foresee Christ, even Moses.

So, I believe, the OT people were saved by faith in God. They believed God's word as much as was revealed to them, and knew their own sinfulness. In fact, the reason they would carry out the sacrifices, and the reason they would do all the things God told them to do was an outworking of an inward faith. It was not to earn salvation. It was to demonstrate the reality of it. They were saved by faith in Christ. They didn't know who Christ was. And, they didn't know specifically when and how and all of that, but they believed God. They were sinful, and God would have to provide a sacrifice for them

[jabcat]

I'm pretty sure John Macarthur isn't UR, and I'd guess he means only some "take advantage of the 'offer' ", but he uses some interesting terminology;

"Everyone is saved through Christ. He died for the sins of the world. For them, it was future. For us, it is past, but it was still through Christ. It was His death, His sacrifice. It atoned for the sins of the OT saints as well as the NT saints."   

[Molly]

9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. [Rom 8]



10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. [1 Peter 1]



21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. [2 Peter 1]



12Unto whom  it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. [1 Peter 1]



10 so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. [Eph 3:20]

[jabcat]

good find

[Molly]

My name will be great among the nations, from the rising to the setting of the sun. In every place incense and pure offerings will be brought to my name, because my name will be great among the nations," says the LORD Almighty.[Mal 1:11]


And I tell you this, that many Gentiles will come from all over the world--from east and west--and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob at the feast in the Kingdom of Heaven. [Mat 8:11]

People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God.[Luke 13:29]


13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.[John 1:13]



9Go on up to a high mountain,

O Zion, herald of good news;

lift up your voice with strength,

O Jerusalem, herald of good news;

lift it up, fear not;

say to the cities of Judah,

"Behold your God!"

11He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

--Isa 40

[WhiteWings]

I'm pretty sure John Macarthur isn't UR, and I'd guess he means only some "take advantage of the 'offer' ", but he uses some interesting terminology;

"Everyone is saved through Christ. He died for the sins of the world. For them, it was future. For us, it is past, but it was still through Christ. It was His death, His sacrifice. It atoned for the sins of the OT saints as well as the NT saints."   

My first impression was (and still is) that it's a "get God of the hook" or "plug the holes in my theology" article.

Now, the means for salvation has always been the same: Faith.

No. He starts his article with claiming salvation is only trough Jesus but a bit later he says faith in God is enough.

They believed God's word as much as was revealed to them

In case of the rest of the world that was nothing. They are saved too?