Tentmaker Forum

   an appointed feast given to Israel. Jewish New Year..literally translated HEAD of the Year.  Jubilee's started on this day. Jesus Christ fulfills

  all these feasts. This is the feast when no-one knows the day or hour...for it could be one day or another,whenever the New moon appears.

   Watchmen would stay up at night and go tell Preist when wittnessed. You could wake up in the morning and have slept through it


   My grand-daughter learnt about it in school today. So tonite we had a little commemoration of it...and discussed how Jesus Christ fulfills it

      It was a learning expierence.

It's also the birthday of Jesus.
Maybe also nice to know: His circumcision was on the Day of Atonement / Yom Kippur.

 watchmen are like shepherds in the field,aren't they? :bigGrin:

 Look! There on the mountains, the feet of one who brings good news!,who proclaims peace![Peace and goodwill to all men on earth]

   CELEBRATE YOUR FESTIVALS,O'JUDAH AND FUFILL YOUR VOWS, NO MORE WILL THE WICKED INVADE YOU,

    THEY WILL BE COMPLETELY DESTROYED

Where are we finding these facts?  Jesus birthday was on this day?  It's a feast day established in the days of Moses yet no man know the "day" or "hour"?  That's not making any sense.  How can they establish a day of celebration and not know what day it was on?  Are we sure something's not being pulled out of context?

Quote from: sheila on September 29, 2011, 03:07:31 PM
watchmen are like shepherds in the field,aren't they? :bigGrin:

I have no clue what that's about  :mblush:

I think/figured out all of His special days are on festival days. Passover and First Fruits being the most known.
Others are:
Conception: Hanukkah/Festival of light.
Baptism: Tabernacles
Death prophesized: Yom Kippur/Atonement day. (10 days after New year)
Start Ministry: Simchat Torah/Rejoicing the Torah
Wedding at Canna (sp?) (during Hannukah) 1150th day of His ministry --> number often mentioned in end time theories.
Duration ministry 1260 days --> number often mentioned in end time theories.

I just happen to think the mening of the festivals are a story on their own.

BTW it's the feast of trumpetS (plural) meaning it's for the whole nation.

   quit shoveling dirt in the well! :laughing7:  sorry,couldn't resist, you know I love you :HeartThrob:   Rosh Hashana is the only feast in the bible where no one knows the

      exact day or hour that it begins. For it is due to the variable 'new' moon. while I don't know where ww got specific imformation about Christ being born on Rosh Hashana

    I had heard that it was in autumn.  He's the passover Lamb, the firstfruits,the unleaven bread,the atonement...I have no problem seeing Himas the

    Jubilee,head of the year[of salvation],the 'hearing' of the shofar,the wedding groom of the wedding feast.

     Rosh Hashan starts off the sounding of trumpets and the  days of awe,culminating in atonement.

   I can't copy and paste,but there are many articles about it on the internet..

  ps.  the comment about watchmen was in regard to shepherds in the fields looking after the flocks when angels began announcing His birth...just like

  watchmen stayed up at night for new moon to be seen.

No fair!!

I did hear that it's the day of trumpets, I just hadn't heard about the date of birth, nor about the fact that they didn't know what day the other would be on.

Quote from: sheila on September 29, 2011, 10:19:21 PM
   quit shoveling dirt in the well! :laughing7:  sorry,couldn't resist, you know I love you :HeartThrob:

I understand it's a joke I just don't understand it. :laughing7:

QuoteRosh Hashana is the only feast in the bible where no one knows the  exact day or hour that it begins. For it is due to the variable 'new' moon.

Sorry I disagree with that.
Every new moon is spotted.
That means all feasts are moon related because they are usually on a certain day of the month or calculated from a certain event.
The foremost example of that is First Fruits. With an very cold winter there wouldn't be anything to harvest as a Weave Sheaf on First Fruits.
So some scholars say sometimes a whole month is inserted in the year to make sure First Fruits is on the right day/month. Of course Passover and Pentecost are linked to First fruits. So that truly unknown.
Other scholars say in such cases grain was imported from Palestina.
I think the moon spotting wasn't much more as following God's orders because their astronomy was quite good.

Quotewhile I don't know where ww got specific imformation about Christ being born on Rosh Hashana

Johns vision from Patmos (woman on the moon etc) pinpoints His birth with an accuracy of a 90 minutes (astronomy)
From that a lot of adding dates/days to reach the other dates with some points as verification. Exodus is full of those same dates. (did find some)

QuoteI had heard that it was in autumn.  He's the passover Lamb, the first fruits,the unleaven bread,the atonement...I have no problem seeing Himas the

Would it come as a surprise if I told you there was a Jubilee and Sabbath year during His ministry?
One of the hints is the verse He was reading in the synagogue.

type in Rosh Hashana,no one knows day or hour....Numerous explanations

Quote from: sheila on September 29, 2011, 11:28:13 PM
type in Rosh Hashana,no one knows day or hour....Numerous explanations

I did. None of them makes any sense to me.

More believers are becoming interested in the Jewish feasts. I think the time will come when it will become more commonplace to see christians celebrate these biblical festivals and reap the powerful blessings.

More accurate would be:
christians celebrate these biblical festivals again

Early Christians did celebrate (several) Jewisj feasts.
Constantin replaced Passover with easter and Rosh Hashanna with Christmas

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 02, 2011, 01:32:58 AM
More accurate would be:
christians celebrate these biblical festivals again

Early Christians did celebrate (several) Jewisj feasts.
Constantin replaced Passover with easter and Rosh Hashanna with Christmas

Really?? That's really interesting. Would His disciples have continued to celebrate them?

 that's a really good quaestion,Lomorah. And the very reason I stated my post as I did. A teaching tool and learning expierence..of the feasts

  what they meant and how they are spiritually fulfilled in Christ,by Christ.   And also with Christmas and easter  making me uncomfortable in conscience

   [I speak of my own conscience,not judging or condemning anyone else's]

   I plan on doing Hannuka,this year,too.  :HeartThrob:  this is not an 'under compulsion' thing.  I just would like to look into all of them at least once in my lifetime

  examine and get what I can spiritually out of them.

   when I was married,I did not have the 'liberty' to do so. I'm kinda enjoying my 'freedom' in the matter at this time in my life :HeartThrob: :thumbsup:

Just compare passover dates with easter dates. They (almost) never align.
Eostre=Astarte=Ostera=Eastera=Easter = wife of Nimrod/Baal
They had a son Tammuz the saviour who was resurrected each spring. The sign of Tammuz is a star. The sign of easter is a cresent moon. Both combined is Easter pregnant with Tammuz. A symbol of islam. See many mosques and the flag of Turkey.
Easter was the fertility godess. Mmm, easter eggs and bunnies....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Turkey
http://www.chabad.org/holidays/passover/pesach_cdo/aid/671901/jewish/When-is-Passover-in-2011-2012-2013-2014-and-2015.htm
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t020.html

---

Jesus wasn't born on Christmas. I think on Rosh Hasannah. But besides of that Christmas is highly pagan.
It's the date the days get longer. The sun god baal/nimrod is reborn. Sunday=sun day=Baal day.
Just google for pagan christmas for some many results.
I'll give you one: http://www.fossilizedcustoms.com/asherah.html

---

Most of our festivals are pagan.New years eve for example originally was people banging on pots and pans to drive demons out of town.
The cross was a sign that represents a certain planet alignment representing rebirth. The circle you see on many crosses is the sun.

---

Of course it could all be a coincidence. Jesus never spoke about new holidays and when a Roman emperor took charge of the church purely accidental all dates get messed up and somehow end on ancient pagan festival days.
I must be paranoid :winkgrin:
If you want to read a book about this stuff PM me.

Quote from: sheila on October 05, 2011, 10:46:18 PMI plan on doing Hanukkah,this year,too.  :HeartThrob:  this is not an 'under compulsion' thing.  I just would like to look into all of them at least once in my lifetime

  examine and get what I can spiritually out of them.

   when I was married,I did not have the 'liberty' to do so. I'm kinda enjoying my 'freedom' in the matter at this time in my life :HeartThrob: :thumbsup:

Hanukkah is an eight day festival. Each day a extra candle is lit on a 8 arm Menorah.
Due to all sort of complications I won't bother you with it's very difficult to pinpoint certain dates exactly but my best guess is jesus conception was on the 1st candle.
His birth was on a festival day and eight days later when He was presented in the circumcised on the 8th day.
I've been wondering about something someone here can possibly help me with. Perhaps from a spiritual pov or detailed knowledge of a pregnancy.
What happens during the 8th day of a pregnancy. In Jesus case what happens at the 8th candle.
Obviously from conception to birth and from the 8th candle to the 8th day of His life (circumcision) is the same duration.
I'm wondering there is some link between the two 8s

:dontknow:

generally the fertilized ovum of the woman is 'implanted' in the lining of the womb at 8 days[place]nta forming to nourish

   





















     

Quote from: lomarah on October 05, 2011, 06:26:54 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 02, 2011, 01:32:58 AM
More accurate would be:
christians celebrate these biblical festivals again

Early Christians did celebrate (several) Jewisj feasts.
Constantin replaced Passover with easter and Rosh Hashanna with Christmas

Really?? That's really interesting. Would His disciples have continued to celebrate them?

I could be wrong because I haven't studied nor have a lot of knowledge about it;  but that said, I doubt it's true that it would be God's plan for those holy days to increasingly be kept again in terms of His plan for the ages.  I thought those things, including the Law, were shadows of the better things that were coming - starting with Christ and moving forward. 

Isn't it possible people could be keeping those days, but it not really be God's perfect will?  People just doing things they think are right?  I believe often we do return to things;  for instance, Paul talked about once having tasted grace, to return to the Law was in error, falling from grace.  Just an example.

OTOH, I could be very wrong about some of the above.  If there is an earthly Millinial (sp) kingdom to come while the nations are being brought in and all Israel is saved, then maybe there will be a temple and some of the Jewish things revisited.  I don't claim to be an expert on those things, just an opinion/some thoughts.  :) 

any scriptural evidence the feast days etc. will return?

Quote from: jabcat on October 06, 2011, 03:11:58 AM
I could be wrong because I haven't studied nor have a lot of knowledge about it;  but that said, I doubt it's true that it would be God's plan for those holy days to increasingly be kept again in terms of His plan for the ages.

That's a way looking at it. Then the other question you should ask yourself why do those other religions/customs even exist if God is protecting His plan?

QuoteI thought those things, including the Law, were shadows of the better things that were coming - starting with Christ and moving forward.

In the OT all those laws were instated. It's true that in many the words "for the age" are used and some day will be needed no more. Sheep sacrifice is the most obvious I think. God set those laws. Who has the right to cancel those laws?
If God did cancel the laws He would just have cancelled them. Not just moved them to pagan dates. Jews have many festivals. Most are not celebrated by Christians. But the ones that are celebrated are moved to the dates of a pagan god. Don't you find that odd?

QuoteIsn't it possible people could be keeping those days, but it not really be God's perfect will?

God did cancel several laws in the NT. Sanhedrin was removed from power. Pork is allowed. Sacrifice no longer needed. No more circumsision. It can be argued that several other laws are clearly for Jews only; not for gentiles. Maybe a good idea for another thread. But even if you could show God clearly canceled almost all laws I highly doubt He commanded them to be shifted to dates in honor of Baal. One of those festival days is sunday.  Yeah I know the reasoning it's about sunday resurrection but the arguments for that are weak; and again it accidently is moved (by Constantine) to the day of baal. All Jewish days had a number except the 7th was called Sabbath. Every day was renamed to the honor of  pagan god.

QuotePeople just doing things they think are right?  I believe often we do return to things;  for instance, Paul talked about once having tasted grace, to return to the Law was in error, falling from grace.  Just an example.

I understand what you mean but it isn't a good example because the verse you refer to clearly cancels some laws. Which ones could be discussed. While the verse states certain laws are no longer in force it didn't state the laws should be replaced or be used in honor of baal. Or did Jesus' death also cancelled the law that forbids worshipping other gods?

Personally I don't know a verse that cancels Rosh Hashana. What I do know that the return of Jesus is closely linked to that festival. I would say that proves that day is still part of Gods plan. Also meaning only the Jewish calender is correct. The calendar with designed by God. Various statements in the OT like "this is your 2nd month". Where in the NT did God state the calendar He designed should be changed/abandoned? Strange that Revelation points to festivals that where done away with decades before It was written.

:2c:

Quote from: jabcat on October 06, 2011, 04:11:36 AMany scriptural evidence the feast days etc. will return?

There is Scriptual evidence some exist during Jesus' return.
Personally I think the days will not return, they never where cancelled at all.
Trumpets of Rosh Hasanna did assemble the nation. In Revelation the trumpets announce Jesus. That means they need to be reinstated before Jesus returns. Simply because they are sounded before He returns. Or they where never cancelled.

3:58pm here so forgive me some inacuracy but at that time teh feats of booth starts. Feast of huts. People dwelt in huts of freshly cut living wood that represented a new body. After 7 days they another ceremony took place. The huts represented a new body. The bride and groom also spend 7 days in the bridal chamber. So I wonder the NT is also pointing that that festival. :lazy:

Quote from: sheila on October 06, 2011, 01:20:39 AM
generally the fertilized ovum of the woman is 'implanted' in the lining of the womb at 8 days[place]nta forming to nourish

I guessed something like that. Really!  :winkgrin:

What does the circumsision at the 8th day repesents? Not asking about the common explanation but does it for example mean only them you become Jew and part of Gods people. Does the 8th day in the womb represents the real start of life?
8 is the number of (new) beginning.
Bit of stretching defenition but the 8th day by your discription sounds like "they become one" at that point.

:dontknow:

The 8th day man.   The resurrection of the dead.

Quote from: jabcat on October 06, 2011, 04:11:36 AM
any scriptural evidence the feast days etc. will return?

The three fall feasts have not yet been fulfilled.  Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles.

Quote from: Molly on October 06, 2011, 08:00:27 AM
The 8th day man.   The resurrection of the dead.

I know but how exactly does that tie for example to circumcision? Was Jesus "dead" the first 7 days of His life?

Quote from: Molly on October 06, 2011, 08:07:50 AM

Quote from: jabcat on October 06, 2011, 04:11:36 AM
any scriptural evidence the feast days etc. will return?

The three fall feasts have not yet been fulfilled.  Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles.

The Jews haven't been celebrating those all these years?  Or are you talking about their future fulfillment?

I'm talking about ritually observing them as having some necessary spiritual significance.

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 06, 2011, 08:30:56 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 06, 2011, 08:00:27 AM
The 8th day man.   The resurrection of the dead.

I know but how exactly does that tie for example to circumcision? Was Jesus "dead" the first 7 days of His life?

I've long thought Adam was the 8th day man, the image of the one to come.

He's the first man to receive the Holy Spirit, the first man placed in the garden, the first priest.

Adam is created on the 8th day.   The circumcision is set apart.

Quote from: jabcat on October 06, 2011, 08:34:40 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 06, 2011, 08:07:50 AM

Quote from: jabcat on October 06, 2011, 04:11:36 AM
any scriptural evidence the feast days etc. will return?

The three fall feasts have not yet been fulfilled.  Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles.

The Jews haven't been celebrating those all these years?  Or are you talking about their future fulfillment?

I'm talking about ritually observing them as having some necessary spiritual significance.

Jesus fulfilled the spring feasts 2000 years ago.

He will fulfill the fall feasts at the second coming.

OK, thanks.  So you're talking about the future fulfillment, not [necessarily] ceremonially/ritual observance.  I just personally basically see us more in a spiritual time now ["we no longer know Him after the flesh"].

I had already typed the following -

As far as Christians needing to ritually observe the Jewish holy days;  again, maybe there's some things I don't understand about it, and God will show me more later.  But I pretty much hold dear the following from Collosians 2;

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not[d] seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.
20 Therefore,[e] if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 "Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle," 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

I've lived legalism/ritualism, and I don't like it.  I seek the freedom of relationship in Christ.  Step-by-step :)

Blessings.

P.S.  21,22,23 all speak to me in regard to my "Conscience" thread...

good scrips  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Molly on October 06, 2011, 08:07:50 AM

Quote from: jabcat on October 06, 2011, 04:11:36 AM
any scriptural evidence the feast days etc. will return?

The three fall feasts have not yet been fulfilled.  Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles.

I'm not saying you are wrong because I read that view fairly often. I wonder how fulfilled is determined.
For example the 8th day of Jesus life was Day of Atonement. Baptism during Tabernacles. And of course teh topic of this thread He was born during the Feast of trumpets.

For example it sounds like Tabernacles already was fulfilled.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us,...
John 1:14 And the Word came in the flesh, and lived for a time in our midst....

"In Amos 3:7, God declared He would do nothing without first revealing it to His servants, the Prophets. From Genesis to the Revelation, He provides picture after picture of His entire plan. One of the most startling prophetic pictures is outlined in the Jewish Feasts in Leviticus 23.


God speaks to us throughout the Bible by creating pictures. The Feasts in Leviticus 23 are a picture of God's complete plan for the earth. They are also a prophetic time table. There are seven Feasts; four have been fulfilled. Each fulfillment occurred on the exact day and month that the Feast was to be celebrated."

Feast of Passover
Feast of Unleavened Bread
Feast of Firstfruits
Feast of Pentecost
Feast of Trumpets
Day of Atonement
Feast of Tabernacles

Quote from: jabcat on October 06, 2011, 08:34:40 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 06, 2011, 08:07:50 AM

Quote from: jabcat on October 06, 2011, 04:11:36 AM
any scriptural evidence the feast days etc. will return?

The three fall feasts have not yet been fulfilled.  Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles.

The Jews haven't been celebrating those all these years?  Or are you talking about their future fulfillment?

I'm talking about ritually observing them as having some necessary spiritual significance.

They celebrate the every year. Just Google for: When is ..... 2011 and you will find many Judaism site with dates and explantions. Although it obviously are Jewish sites they often quote OT verses so also good for Christians to read imo.

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 06, 2011, 08:46:21 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 06, 2011, 08:07:50 AM

Quote from: jabcat on October 06, 2011, 04:11:36 AM
any scriptural evidence the feast days etc. will return?

The three fall feasts have not yet been fulfilled.  Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles.

I'm not saying you are wrong because I read that view fairly often. I wonder how fulfilled is determined.
For example the 8th day of Jesus life was Day of Atonement. Baptism during Tabernacles. And of course teh topic of this thread He was born during the Feast of trumpets.

For example it sounds like Tabernacles already was fulfilled.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us,...
John 1:14 And the Word came in the flesh, and lived for a time in our midst....

Yes, I understand.  But I mean for us.

We have already received the forgiveness of the cross [Passover] through the Holy Spirit given at Pentecost.

Now we await his return with trumpets, his appearing a second tine without sin to salvation [Atonement], and the redemption of our bodies [Tabernacles].

Could it be all feast are fulfilled twice?

QuoteBut I mean for us

Us? The second coming is for (benefit of) all. Not just Christians. Neither just the elect of the Christians (trumpets is plural)

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 06, 2011, 09:00:43 AM
Could it be all feast are fulfilled twice?

QuoteBut I mean for us

Us? The second coming is for (benefit of) all. Not just Christians. Neither just the elect of the Christians (trumpets is plural)

The second coming is the first resurrection.  Then Jesus and his saints rule and reign for a thousand years.

[For us literalists.]

The first four of the seven feasts occur during the springtime (Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, and Weeks) and they all have already been fulfilled by Christ in the New Testament. The final three holidays (Trumpets, The Day of Atonement, and Tabernacles) occur during the fall, all within a short fifteen-day period.

Many Bible scholars and commentators believe that these fall feasts have not yet been fulfilled by Jesus. However, the "blessed hope" (Titus 2:13) for all believers in Jesus Christ is that they most assuredly will. As the four spring feasts were fulfilled literally and right on the actual feast day in connection with Christ's first coming, these three fall feasts, it is believed by many, will likewise be fulfilled literally in connection to the Lord's second coming.

In a nutshell, here is the prophetic significance of each of the seven Levitical feasts of Israel:

1) Passover (Leviticus 23:5) – Pointed to the Messiah as our Passover lamb (1 Corinthians 5:7) whose blood would be shed for our sins. Jesus was crucified on the day of preparation for the Passover at the same hour that the lambs were being slaughtered for the Passover meal that evening.




2) Unleavened Bread (Leviticus 23:6) – Pointed to the Messiah's sinless life (as leaven is a picture of sin in the Bible), making Him the perfect sacrifice for our sins. Jesus' body was in the grave during the first days of this feast, like a kernel of wheat planted and waiting to burst forth as the bread of life.




3) First Fruits (Leviticus 23:10) – Pointed to the Messiah's resurrection as the first fruits of the righteous. Jesus was resurrected on this very day, which is one of the reasons that Paul refers to him in I Corinthians 15:20 as the "first fruits from the dead."




4) Weeks or Pentecost (Leviticus 23:16) – Occurred fifty days after the beginning of the Feast of Unleavened Bread and pointed to the great harvest of souls and the gift of the Holy Spirit for both Jew and Gentile, who would be brought into the kingdom of God during the Church Age (see Acts 2). The Church was actually established on this day when God poured out His Holy Spirit and 3,000 Jews responded to Peter's great sermon and his first proclamation of the Gospel.




5) Trumpets (Leviticus 23:24) – The first of the fall feasts. Many believe this day points to the Rapture of the Church when the Messiah Jesus will appear in the heavens as He comes for His bride, the Church. The Rapture is always associated in Scripture with the blowing of a loud trumpet (I Thessalonians 4:13-18 and I Corinthians 15:52).




6) Day of Atonement (Leviticus 23:27) – Many believe this prophetically points to the day of the Second Coming of Jesus when He will return to earth. That will be the Day of Atonement for the Jewish remnant when they "look upon Him whom they have pierced," repent of their sins, and receive Him as their Messiah (Zechariah 12:10 and Romans 11:1-6, 25-36).




7) Tabernacles or Booths (Leviticus 23:34) – Many scholars believe that this feast day points to the Lord's promise that He will once again "tabernacle" with His people when He returns to reign over all the world (Micah 4:1-7).

Praise Yeshua Ha'Mashiach!

http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/jesus-fulfilled-the-jewish-feasts/blog-223497/

Quote from: sheila on October 05, 2011, 10:46:18 PM
I just would like to look into all of them at least once in my lifetime

Next one is on october 8.

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 06, 2011, 09:26:41 AM

Quote from: sheila on October 05, 2011, 10:46:18 PM
I just would like to look into all of them at least once in my lifetime

Next one is on october 8.

I had high hopes for this year, but I seem to still be here.  :mblush:

The word feast means 'appointment.'

It's just amazing that the first four feasts were fulfilled on the appointed day and time.


"feast"

H4150
מועדה    מעד    מועד
mô‛êd  mô‛êd  mô‛âdâh
mo-ade', mo-ade', mo-aw-daw'
From H3259; properly an appointment, that is, a fixed time or season; specifically a festival; conventionally a year; by implication, an assembly (as convened for a definite purpose); technically the congregation; by extension, the place of meeting; also a signal (as appointed beforehand): - appointed (sign, time), (place of, solemn) assembly, congregation, (set, solemn) feast, (appointed, due) season, solemn (-ity), synagogue, (set) time (appointed).

Quote from: jabcat on October 06, 2011, 08:41:38 AM
OK, thanks.  So you're talking about the future fulfillment, not [necessarily] ceremonially/ritual observance.  I just personally basically see us more in a spiritual time now ["we no longer know Him after the flesh"].

I had already typed the following -

As far as Christians needing to ritually observe the Jewish holy days;  again, maybe there's some things I don't understand about it, and God will show me more later.  But I pretty much hold dear the following from Collosians 2;

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not[d] seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.
20 Therefore,[e] if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 "Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle," 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

I've lived legalism/ritualism, and I don't like it.  I seek the freedom of relationship in Christ.  Step-by-step :)

Blessings.

You have to admit that it's interesting though that God picked an Old Testament scholar [Paul] to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles.

He was the most studied in the scripture of all the apostles.

I have my own feelings about that, but there is no doubt that Paul, who studied under Gameliel, understood every part of the Old Testament.  He's always quoting it and referring to it and showing how Jesus fulfilled the prophecies of the Messiah and so forth.   There is no doubt that he had the Old Testament memorized.

When they refer to scripture in the New Testament, they are talking about the Old Testament, because there was not yet any New Testament complied.

I understand what you are saying.  But, these feasts are pretty exciting stuff to study.  Especially since we are still waiting for the last three.

Quote from: Molly on October 06, 2011, 09:34:16 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 06, 2011, 09:26:41 AM

Quote from: sheila on October 05, 2011, 10:46:18 PM
I just would like to look into all of them at least once in my lifetime

Next one is on october 8.

I had high hopes for this year, but I seem to still be here.  :mblush:

Maybe next saturday. :happygrin:
Imo the most important day is not the 2nd coming but the atonement that follows. IIRC the day of atonement is the most important Jewish festival of all.

When setting your hopes grab a calendar. You can bet on it the Sabbath and Jubilee cycles will be of great importance.
Many (maybe all) key events are aligned with Sabbath and Jubilee years. So you chances are one in every 7 (or 6) years  :laughing7:

ww, your reference to the calender days changed to pagan days..and feasts...reminded me of a scripture in Daniel..regarding one who would

  try and change 'times'

   the revelation of Christ has much to do with 'trumpets' and days of awe and atonement[removal of sin/tares/scapegoat/judgements/one mind

  with Christ and God[His HIGH THOUGHTS OF TRUTH/RIGHTEOUSNESS/JUDGEMENTS/MERCY} Sabbath[as 1000yr reign] and 8th day circumcision

  in relationship withgog's nations surrounding camp of Holy city[son of perdition going into everlasting 'cutting off' same as circumcision of nations that trample

 

Jer 7 [ACV]
18 The sons gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead the dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink-offerings to other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

That queen of heaven seems to be Isthar/Easter. I think Mary mother of Jesus in RCC is actually Isthar. I see plenty chicken and bunny shaped cakes, bread, cookies around easter.

Quotetry and change 'times'

Do you have  verse number Sheila?

He will defy the Most High and oppress the holy people of the Most High. He will try to change their sacred festivals and laws, and they will be placed under his control for a time, times, and half a time.

Dan 7:25


It's about the antichrist.

 Then Daniel praised the God of heaven.

He said, "Praise the name of God forever and ever, for he has all wisdom and power.

It is He who changes the times and the epochs; He removes kings and establishes kings; He gives wisdom to wise men And knowledge to men of understanding.

He reveals deep and mysterious things and knows what lies hidden in darkness, though he is surrounded by light.

--Dan 2

Quote from: Molly on October 06, 2011, 07:03:30 PMIt's about the antichrist.

Sounds that way but I find it impossible to fit it in a future end time event because it started at the time of Nimrod.
Verse 27 seems to link "His people" to the keeper of the correct days. That makes things even more impossible. His people are the Christians who stopped celebrating at Constantin's time. It's the Jews that always kept the times but aren't Christians.

:dontknow:

 it has to to do with 'keep awake,watch,theif in the night to the unaware. Israel not knowing His time of visitation to them. that's the true keepers of the times..

    at a day and hour you think not.   Babylon says she will not see widowhood or suffer loss of children...she typifies 'queen' of heaven. Signs of the 'times'

   are very important...in one hour babylon falls[that day or HOUR].come out of her my people

   

It is thought the Pilgrims based the first Thanksgiving on Tabernacles.  They celebrated it at the same time of year, and although not for 7 days but for 3, it was celebrated in the same spirit of thanksgiving to God that Sukkot is fashioned.   They were of course very grounded in the Old Testament and sought to base the laws of their new colony, which they considered the promised land, on the OT laws of God.

The timing of Thanksgiving was later changed to November, but it is a national holiday. 

So, yes, until the atheists figure it out and come after it, we will continue to celebrate Tabernacles as a nation,  in secret and impunty, knowing full well it is a holiday appointed by God.  :happygrin:



In the end, the enemies of Jerusalem who survive the plague will go up to Jerusalem each year to worship the King, the LORD of Heaven's Armies, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. {Zech 14:16}

Don't know about the USA but here atheists celebrate Christmas, Easter, New Year, Carnaval etc. Thanksgiving we don't have.

I'm wondering why your thanksgiving isn't at the same date as the Jewish one. Or at least at the harvest of the same type of crop.

 there was a young virgin...whose jewish roots were hidden....she took a babylon name 'ester' an evil plot of Haman to destroy all jews was hatched......

    she sued for her people's lives.........and revealed her jewish identity[christians roots are jewish]

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 07, 2011, 02:42:47 AM
Don't know about the USA but here atheists celebrate Christmas, Easter, New Year, Carnaval etc. Thanksgiving we don't have.

I'm wondering why your thanksgiving isn't at the same date as the Jewish one. Or at least at the harvest of the same type of crop.

They are doing their best to shut down Christmas here and replace it with who knows what, holidays I've never heard of lol.

It's ok to celebrate any holiday in public school as long as it is not a Christian one.

Like I said the Pilgrims celebrated Thanksgiving/Tabernacles at the right time of year, but that was changed in the 1800's and again in the 1900's to bring it closer to Christmas, probably for marketing purposes [in the case of FDR].

Carnival?  What's that?

 thanks for that 'heads up" Molly,regarding Thanks giving and Sukkot.   The  hebrew word for turkey is Indian chicken..and also 'thanks' too,too,much!!

   so 'turkey day' is 'thanks day" lol!  love it! :laughing7:

Quote from: sheila on October 07, 2011, 02:47:16 AM
there was a young virgin...whose jewish roots were hidden....she took a babylon name 'ester' an evil plot of Haman to destroy all jews was hatched......

    she sued for her people's lives.........and revealed her jewish identity[christians roots are jewish]

But don't be afraid of those who threaten you. For the time is coming when everything that is hidden will be revealed, and all that is secret will be made known to all. [Mat 10:26]

I get a lot of comfort in that.  But, sometimes he is the one who hides us, even from ourselves, for purposes of his own.

For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. [Col 3:3]

Carnaval, I just heard about that in the movie 'Rio'. Don't have a clue what it's about but in the movie there was a huge parade with loads of lights and a bunch of people dressed up like birds... but that may have been because the movie was centered around bird characters... lol now i'm going to have to Google it.

Quote from: lomarah on October 07, 2011, 04:30:42 AM
Carnaval, I just heard about that in the movie 'Rio'. Don't have a clue what it's about but in the movie there was a huge parade with loads of lights and a bunch of people dressed up like birds... but that may have been because the movie was centered around bird characters... lol now i'm going to have to Google it.

whitewings really dresses up like a bird?!  :mshock:   :laughing7:

At the time of Jesus, only the Jews [out of 12 tribes] were observing the feast of Tabernacles.


1After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

2Now the Jew's feast of tabernacles was at hand.

--John 7


Jesus sends his disciples on ahead to the feast and follows later in secret.  He knows the Jews are seeking to kill him.


8Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast: for my time is not yet full come.

9When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee.

10But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.

--John 7



The Jews are looking for him at the feast.  They knew he would attend.


11Then the Jews sought him at the feast, and said, Where is he?

12And there was much murmuring among the people concerning him: for some said, He is a good man: others said, Nay; but he deceiveth the people.

13Howbeit no man spake openly of him for fear of the Jews.

--John 7



They find Jesus in the middle of the feast teaching at the temple.


14Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught.

15And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?

16Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

--John 7



Jesus gives a prophecy about a time when God will tabernacle with men.


7In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

--John 7



3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. -[Rev 21]

Quote from: Molly on October 07, 2011, 03:11:18 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 07, 2011, 02:42:47 AM
Don't know about the USA but here atheists celebrate Christmas, Easter, New Year, Carnaval etc. Thanksgiving we don't have.

I'm wondering why your thanksgiving isn't at the same date as the Jewish one. Or at least at the harvest of the same type of crop.

They are doing their best to shut down Christmas here and replace it with who knows what, holidays I've never heard of lol.

It's ok to celebrate any holiday in public school as long as it is not a Christian one.

Like I said the Pilgrims celebrated Thanksgiving/Tabernacles at the right time of year, but that was changed in the 1800's and again in the 1900's to bring it closer to Christmas, probably for marketing purposes [in the case of FDR].

Carnival?  What's that?

It's a 5 (???) day feast that takes place 40 days before easter. There is some dispute what carneval actually means. It's two Latin words carne and vale. Meaning farewell meat/flesh. No meat (except fish) was eaten for 40 days.
It was also a farewell to stored food. Spring arrived and fresh produce of the land was eaten. (weird because I know for a fact nothing is harvested at this time of the year. But possibly in the past when the climate was warmer)
This has some parallels with First Fruits. If you read about it you'll see the Jews ate bread of old grain in the morning and bread of freshly harvested grain in the evening.
It's also a celebration of the spring season. Rebirth of nature.

Quote from: lomarah on October 07, 2011, 04:30:42 AMCarnaval, I just heard about that in the movie 'Rio'. Don't have a clue what it's about but in the movie there was a huge parade with loads of lights and a bunch of people dressed up like birds... but that may have been because the movie was centered around bird characters... lol now i'm going to have to Google it.

Not really as birds. as about everything. All sorts of masks and costumes to scare of evil spirits. A huge boozing festival. In the past there was a spike in November/December births. Count back 9 months and you are at carnaval :winkgrin:
The masks are also said to be worship of the dead. As said a lot of booze that's why it's also called (can't translate it to English) Carnaval bacchanal. Meaning excess of drinking. Of course bacchanal comes from Bacchus. The favorite god of Caligula know for his parties in honor of Bacchus the god of wine and sex. Massive orgies with wine that were celebrated on the very spot the Vatican is build now. It's build on one of Rome's 7 hills. It was a swamp area with lots of shallow graves. Lots of wild dogs/wolves digging there to eat the corpses. The hill was called vaticanis. Dwelling place of the dogs. Rome was founded by two orphan twin brothers called Remus and Romulus. The boy were nutured by a she-wolf. Romulus killed Remus and founded Rome. Wolves are dogs = canis. So there is also link between carnival and wolves. The special Wolfe day was 15 February. Now know valentines day. Two nude young men representing Remus and Romulus ran around in Rome with bloody strips of wolf skin. Young virgins showed their genitals and were whipped with the blooded wolf skins. It was a fertility festival. Valentines day back then was called Lupercalia, wolf festival. The symbol of Bacchus was a heart shaped ivy leaf. And of course links back to Nimrod the great warrior. The great archer. Cupid. Some tunnels beneath the Vatican are made of human bones.
That brings us to another possible meaning of carnival. Flesh raising.


Yes you guessed it by now... Carnival is a Catholic festival :winkgrin:

Quote from: Molly on October 07, 2011, 04:33:56 AM

Quote from: lomarah on October 07, 2011, 04:30:42 AM
Carnaval, I just heard about that in the movie 'Rio'. Don't have a clue what it's about but in the movie there was a huge parade with loads of lights and a bunch of people dressed up like birds... but that may have been because the movie was centered around bird characters... lol now i'm going to have to Google it.

whitewings really dresses up like a bird?!  :mshock:   :laughing7:

Yup. Below last year's picture of me after a few glasses of Bacchuscardi  :icon_jokercolor:

(http://94.100.122.139/223300001-223350000/223319401-223319500/223319443_5_J7AZ.jpeg)

aka Mardis gras here in the states

Quote from: redhotmagma on October 07, 2011, 01:30:21 PM
aka Mardis gras here in the states

The pictures surely look similar.
BTW Prince Carnaval is elected November 11th (11-11) each year. And is "burried" at the end of carnaval.

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 07, 2011, 01:58:57 PM

Quote from: redhotmagma on October 07, 2011, 01:30:21 PM
aka Mardis gras here in the states

The pictures surely look similar.
BTW Prince Carnaval is elected November 11th (11-11) each year. And is "burried" at the end of carnaval.

well, now that we know what the other side is doing, let's see what our side is doing.  :laughing7:



The Feast of TABERNACLES (Sukkot) Tishri 15-22 ~ September/October


The seventh and final Festival of the Lord is called the Feast of Tabernacles. It starts five days after the Day of Atonement on the fifteenth of Tishri (October).

This festival is also called the Feast of Ingathering:

"And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field: and the feast of ingathering, which is in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in thy labours out of the field."
(Exodus 23:16)

The Feast unto the Lord:

"Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath."
(Leviticus 23:39)

And, the Feast of Booths, or simply "the feast"; (Leviticus 23:36; Deuteronomy 16:13; I Kings 8:2; II Chronicles 5:3, 7:8; Nehemiah 8:14; Isaiah 30:29; Ezekiel 45:23,25) because it was so well-known.

Historical Significance

After the Israelites returned from exile, Ezra read the law and led them in acts of penitence during the Feast of Tabernacles.

"And on the second day were gathered together the chief of the fathers of all the people, the priests, and the Levites, unto Ezra the scribe, even to understand the words of the law.
And they found written in the law which the LORD had commanded by Moses, that the children of Israel should dwell in booths in the feast of the seventh month:
And that they should publish and proclaim in all their cities, and in Jerusalem, saying, Go forth unto the mount, and fetch olive branches, and pine branches, and myrtle branches, and palm branches, and branches of thick trees, to make booths, as it is written.
So the people went forth, and brought them, and made themselves booths, every one upon the roof of his house, and in their courts, and in the courts of the house of God, and in the street of the water gate, and in the street of the gate of Ephraim.
And all the congregation of them that were come again out of the captivity made booths, and sat under the booths: for since the days of Jeshua the son of Nun unto that day had not the children of Israel done so. And there was very great gladness.
Also day by day, from the first day unto the last day, he read in the book of the law of God. And they kept the feast seven days; and on the eighth day was a solemn assembly, according unto the manner."
(Nehemiah 8:13-18).

The dedication of Solomon's' Temple also took place during this feast.

"And all the men of Israel assembled themselves unto king Solomon at the feast in the month Ethanim, which is the seventh month."
(I Kings 8:2)

Later, Josephus referred to the Feast of Tabernacles as the holiest and greatest of all the Hebrew festivals. Also, in Israel, the rains normally stop in March. There is no rain for almost seven months following. If God does not provide the "early" rains of October and November there would be no spring crop because famine would devastate the land and its people. This festival then, was intended to invoke God's blessing on the nation by providing life-giving water.

Festival Observance

On the first day of the feast, each participant had to collect twigs of myrtle, willow, and palm in the area of Jerusalem for construction of their booth (Nehemiah 8:13-18). These "huts" or "booths" were constructed from bulrushes as joyful reminders of the temporary housing erected by their forefathers during the Exodus wanderings (Leviticus 23:40-41; Deuteronomy 16:14). The "booth" in Scripture is a symbol of protection, preservation, and shelter from heat and storm. That is why this festival was commonly known as the Feast of Booths.

"For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock."
(Psalm 27:5)

"Thou shalt hide them in the secret of thy presence from the pride of man: thou shalt keep them secretly in a pavilion from the strife of tongues."
(Psalm 31:20)

"And there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the day time from the heat, and for a place of refuge, and for a covert from storm and from rain."
(Isaiah 4:6)

The festival and rejoicing was to include the entire community, your family, servants, orphans, widows, and even strangers, anyone within the gates of the city.

"Thou shalt observe the feast of tabernacles seven days, after that thou hast gathered in thy corn and thy wine:
And thou shalt rejoice in thy feast, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite, the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that are within thy gates.
Seven days shalt thou keep a solemn feast unto the LORD thy God in the place which the LORD shall choose: because the LORD thy God shall bless thee in all thine increase, and in all the works of thine hands, therefore thou shalt surely rejoice."
(Deuteronomy 16:13-15)

Besides the construction of the booths and ingathering of the labors of the field as noted above, other festivities included the ingathering of the mills and winepress, and the ingathering of the fruit of the earth. Samples of the fall crop were hung in each family's booth to acknowledge God's faithfulness in providing for His people.

"Thou shalt observe the feast of tabernacles seven days, after that thou hast gathered in thy corn and thy wine:"
(Deuteronomy 16:13)

"Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath."
(Leviticus 23:39)

On the eighth and final day of the feast, the high priest of Israel, in a great processional made up of priests and tens of thousands of worshipers, descended from the Temple Mount to pause briefly at the Pool of Siloam. A pitcher was filled with water, and the procession continued via a different route back to the Temple Mount. Here, in the midst of great ceremony, the high priest poured the water out of the pitcher onto the altar.

Another ritual included the lighting of huge Menorahs (candelabras) at the Court of the Women. This is believed to be the probable background for Jesus' statement:

"I am the light of the world."
(John 8:12)

Spiritual and Prophetic Significance

It is in connection with the Festival of Tabernacles and this eighth day that the gospel of John records a fascinating event. John wrote:

"In the last day (eighth day), that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water"
(John 7:37-38)

The Son of God was saying in the clearest possible way that He alone was the source of life and blessing; that He could meet every need of the human heart.

The water and the "pillar of light" provided during the wilderness wandering (when people dwelt in tabernacles) was temporary and in contrast to the continuing water and light claimed by Jesus during this feast which commemorated that wandering period.

The various prophetic revelations, which speak about the coming of all nations to worship at Jerusalem, refer to the Festival of Tabernacles on the occasion of their pilgrimage.

"And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts."
(Zechariah 14:16-21)

This feast speaks eloquently of Christ's Millennium Age and Kingdom where there will be a new beginning without the ravages of the curse of sin. In that day, the earth will give her full bounty, all animals will be docile;

"The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD."
(Isaiah 65:25)

Armies will no longer march, every man will sit under his own fig tree;

"But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it."
(Micah 4:4)

And at that time, righteousness will have become a reality for all the Earth.

Importance of the Festival

Points to be emphasized concerning the Festival of Tabernacles

+ The return of Jesus and His establishment as ruler over all the Earth marks the end of the Church Age and ushers in the beginning of the New Millennium of Christ's Kingdom.

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."
(Revelation 5: 9-10)

+ Christ will live and "tabernacle" with His people here on Earth for one thousand years and provide for all of their needs.

"Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."
(Revelation 7: 15-17)

+ The New Millennium Age is the fulfillment of the last part of the seven thousand years of God's plan for His people on Earth since our original placement in Eden with Adam and Eve.


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http://blog.foreverinchrist.org/the-seven-festivals-of-the-lord-christian-education-resources-scripture/tabernacles1- PASSOVER ~ 2- UNLEAVENED BREAD ~ 3- FIRSTFRUITS
4- PENTECOST ~ 5- TRUMPETS ~ 6- ATONEMENT ~ 7- TABERNACLES 


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Quote from: Molly on October 06, 2011, 09:55:41 AM

When they refer to scripture in the New Testament, they are talking about the Old Testament, because there was not yet any New Testament complied.

I know that makes logical sense, and it may even be true   :laugh2:

Another thought;  surely God knew from the very beginning what He would have written down for us in the coming years - what would end up as our "canon".  The Holy Spirit would have known what was "coming" when Paul was inspired to write "all scripture is inspired and useful for..."  You know, the timelessness/other dimensions thing of God, Him being outside those limitations, etc.  So maybe He was really talking about more than the OT, at least in some instances, and especially the above quote of Paul, at least .

Quote from: Molly on October 07, 2011, 03:11:18 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 07, 2011, 02:42:47 AM
Don't know about the USA but here atheists celebrate Christmas, Easter, New Year, Carnaval etc. Thanksgiving we don't have.

I'm wondering why your thanksgiving isn't at the same date as the Jewish one. Or at least at the harvest of the same type of crop.

They are doing their best to shut down Christmas here and replace it with who knows what, holidays I've never heard of lol.

It's ok to celebrate any holiday in public school as long as it is not a Christian one.

Like I said the Pilgrims celebrated Thanksgiving/Tabernacles at the right time of year, but that was changed in the 1800's and again in the 1900's to bring it closer to Christmas, probably for marketing purposes [in the case of FDR].

Carnival?  What's that?

Being honestly sarcastic........so what. The only days as far as I know that is relevant to us today is Jan. 1st, July 4th, Veterans Day, and I do like a good meal in Nov. so Thanksgiving is GOOD. I am an veteran and a American so I will rise and salute.
Gal 4:10  days ye observe, and months, and times, and years!
Gal 4:11  I am afraid of you, lest in vain I did labour toward you.

Quote from: jabcat on October 08, 2011, 06:52:02 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 06, 2011, 09:55:41 AM

When they refer to scripture in the New Testament, they are talking about the Old Testament, because there was not yet any New Testament complied.

I know that makes logical sense, and it may even be true   :laugh2:

Another thought;  surely God knew from the very beginning what He would have written down for us in the coming years - what would end up as our "canon".  The Holy Spirit would have known what was "coming" when Paul was inspired to write "all scripture is inspired and useful for..."  You know, the timelessness/other dimensions thing of God, Him being outside those limitations, etc.  So maybe He was really talking about more than the OT, at least in some instances, and especially the above quote of Paul, at least .

OT and NT is an invention of man. NT is nothing more than extra books the already existing Scripture. The fact that Jesus is in the NT isn't really important I think because the OT has phases of different types of rulership (kings, judges, etc). The rulership type of Jesus is just another one in that row.

Personally I think publishing NT only is against:
Matt 5 [ACV]
18 For truly I say to you, until the heaven and the earth pass away, one iota or one tittle will, no, not pass away from the law, until all things come to pass.

All didn't pass away yet. That point is the last verse of Revelation.
So instead of OT and NT there is only Bible or Scripture.

2Tim 3 [ACV]
16 Every scripture is inspired by God and useful for instruction, for reproof, for correction, for discipline in righteousness,

Jesus wansn't teaching anything new. He thaught OT things. One of the proofs of that are the Scribs that tried to trick Him during most of His Ministry. They never liked His teachings or answers to their attempts to trick them. But when He answered they stopped responding. That clearly means Jesus answered them with Scripture they knew from their OT

Quote from: wwJesus wansn't teaching anything new. He thaught OT things

well, he taught he was the fulfillment of OT prophecy, OT law.


Then he said, "When I was with you before, I told you that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms must be fulfilled." [Lk 24:44]


And, now we do move on to something new in him.


In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. [Heb8:13]



Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!  2 Cor 9:17

Today is the day of Atonement.


Christian observances of Yom Kippur occur when a Christian-style Day of Atonement models itself on the Jewish holiday of Yom Kippur.



[edit] BackgroundThe Day of Atonement has deep theological significance in the New Testament. Chapters 8 to 10 of the Epistle to the Hebrews argue that it pointed forward to Christ's work as priest. On the one hand, "only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance," (Hebrews 9:7). Christ, however, "went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption," (Hebrews 9:11-12). F. F. Bruce notes that the author views Christ's redemptive work "as the antitypical fulfilment of the sacrificial ritual of the day of atonement."[1]

The New Testament refers to Day of Atonement in Acts 27:9.[2] Because of the apostolic practice of observing Yom Kippur, a small number of evangelical Christians observe it today. Roderick C. Meredith, leader of the Living Church of God, believes that the Day of Atonement "pictures the binding of Satan at the beginning of the Millennium and the world becoming at one with God."[3]

[edit] Jews for JesusMain article: Jews for Jesus
The Jews for Jesus movements states and describes its observances of this day as follows:

"...Yom Kippur can be somewhat of a conundrum to Jewish believers in Y'shua. Do we fast and confess our sins like the rest of the Jewish community or do we rejoice in the knowledge that we're forgiven in Messiah? Many Jewish believers view Yom Kippur as a time for identification with our Jewish people, introspection for ourselves and intercession for loved ones, knowing all the while that Jesus is the One that makes us at one with God..." [4].
The same organization posts the histories of adherents who came to observe Yom Kippur as a part of worshiping Jesus called Y'shua or Yeshua:

"Synagogue is hardly the scene to begin a story about believing in Jesus, but it was there my questions started...From that point on, the entire Bible opened up. God's own Word described the One who would come, die, bear the sins of humanity, and be rejected. I knew that I had found the answer to my prayers in Jesus. I had met the God of Israel. It was through this Yom Kippur prayer that I came to see myself before God. There is no explaining away of sin. But there is a sin-bearer and "...that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses." (Acts 13:38, 39.)"[5].
[edit] Messianic Jewish congregationsMain articles: Messianic Judaism and Hebrew Christians
Messianic Jewish congregations devote serious effort at presenting a rationale for taking Yom Kippur. Such as by the Emmanuel Messianic Jewish Congregation (Clarksville, Maryland, USA):

"For believers in Yeshua, both Jewish and non-Jewish, the observance of Yom Kippur can hold special significance. The repentance started at Rosh HaShanah comes to a culmination with atonement ten days later. As with the traditional Jewish community, those ten days (Yomim Nora'im) can take on spiritual meaning as we meditate on the meaning of the high holy days. Although there are not many customs directly relating to the ten days, the message could be applied to a believer's daily meditation at that time. Traditional readings from the book of Jonah, Hosea 14 and other pertinent passages can enhance one's appreciation of the season...Blessed be the Lord God, who has secured our salvation in Yeshua the Messiah! That is what Yom Kippur is all about for those who call on his name..."[6].
Or that of Congregation Shma Yisrael (Rochester, New York, USA):

"...What's with the goats? (See Leviticus 16)...The wilderness goat died, leaving the iniquities in the wilderness. Yeshua took our iniquities to Sheol. (See Revelation 1:18.)..."[7].
[edit] Sabbatarian churchesMain articles: Church of God and Sabbath in seventh-day churches
As observed by the Living Church of God:

The Christian Day of Atonement is based on the English translation of the Jewish Holy day Yom Kippur. In the original Hebrew, the Bible calls the day Yom Hakippurim (Hebrew for "Day of the Atonements"). The day is commemorated with a 25-hour fast by Jews, but normally a 24 hour fast by Christians who observe it. While not observed by the mainstream of professing Christianity, the Christian groups (mostly those with origins in the old Worldwide Church of God) that do observe it usually refer to it as the Day of Atonement...[8]

--Wikipedia


9Now when much time was spent, and when sailing was now dangerous, because the fast was now already past, Paul admonished them,
--Acts 27.9

Reading for the day of Atonement.


Hosea 14


1 O israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.

2Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.

3Asshur shall not save us; we will not ride upon horses: neither will we say any more to the work of our hands, Ye are our gods: for in thee the fatherless findeth mercy.

4I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.

5I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon.

6His branches shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the olive tree, and his smell as Lebanon.

7They that dwell under his shadow shall return; they shall revive as the corn, and grow as the vine: the scent thereof shall be as the wine of Lebanon.

8Ephraim shall say, What have I to do any more with idols? I have heard him, and observed him: I am like a green fir tree. From me is thy fruit found.

9Who is wise, and he shall understand these things? prudent, and he shall know them? for the ways of the LORD are right, and the just shall walk in them: but the transgressors shall fall therein.

Quote from: wwOT and NT is an invention of man

You of all people who have proven time and again that the whole Bible written over thousands of years by multiple authors is written by one hand...

I am going to pray for you whitewings that he reveal himself to you, that you hear from him.

It's time for you to see him with your own eyes, and hear him with your own ears.

Lord Jesus please reveal yourself to your precious servant Whitewings...Amen.

Quote from: Molly on October 08, 2011, 11:09:03 AM

Quote from: wwJesus wansn't teaching anything new. He thaught OT things

well, he taught he was the fulfillment of OT prophecy, OT law.

That's an OT thing too. The Jews waited (and still do) for the Messiah that would change all things.

That said I should have written "Almost nothing new" because there are some new things.

Quote from: Molly on October 08, 2011, 11:52:02 AM

Quote from: wwOT and NT is an invention of man

You of all people who have proven time and again that the whole Bible written over thousands of years by multiple authors is written by one hand...

You completly misunderstood me Molly.
The chapters, verse numbering and splitting up the Bible in OT and NT is manmade. There are NT only Bibles but not OT only Bibles (for Christians)
For me that implies the OT is "done away with".
Why isn't the OT sold as seperate books? Kings. Judges. etc. It were ways of government that replaced (done away) others forms. Is Exodus done away because Leviticus explains some new laws? No it adds to Exodus.
The NT shows Jesus attended to some feasts. Useless info without OT info about what those feasts are actually about.

I think splitting the Bible in OT and NT gave rise to many false doctrines because it's far more easy to twist anything Jesus said without checking against the OT what He actually was talking about.
:2c:

If there should be a split between OT and NT (which I agree with WW there shouldn't be)  it should probably be at ACts when HS comes at pentecost, or around resurrection.  But I believe when seen in its original order you see the gospels are the hinge between the OC and the NC.

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 08, 2011, 12:49:06 PM

Quote from: Molly on October 08, 2011, 11:52:02 AM

Quote from: wwOT and NT is an invention of man

You of all people who have proven time and again that the whole Bible written over thousands of years by multiple authors is written by one hand...

You completly misunderstood me Molly.
The chapters, verse numbering and splitting up the Bible in OT and NT is manmade. There are NT only Bibles but not OT only Bibles (for Christians)
For me that implies the OT is "done away with".
Why isn't the OT sold as seperate books? Kings. Judges. etc. It were ways of government that replaced (done away) others forms. Is Exodus done away because Leviticus explains some new laws? No it adds to Exodus.
The NT shows Jesus attended to some feasts. Useless info without OT info about what those feasts are actually about.

I think splitting the Bible in OT and NT gave rise to many false doctrines because it's far more easy to twist anything Jesus said without checking against the OT what He actually was talking about.
:2c:

Interesting.  I don't know.  I do know that as a child much of the teaching I received was out of the OT.   I just assumed that was true of all Protestant denominations, because it is a classical Protestant approach to the Bible.   [Except for high Episcopal who, like Catholics, don't read the Bible at all as far as I can see.]

Is that something that is not true?  It's news to me.

Like I said, both Jesus and the writers of the NT quote the OT constantly.

ps I'm still sayin' my prayer.  So get ready... :happygrin:

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 08, 2011, 12:26:51 PM

Quote from: Molly on October 08, 2011, 11:09:03 AM

Quote from: wwJesus wansn't teaching anything new. He thaught OT things

well, he taught he was the fulfillment of OT prophecy, OT law.

That's an OT thing too. The Jews waited (and still do) for the Messiah that would change all things.

That said I should have written "Almost nothing new" because there are some new things.

Not hardly.  They don't read their own Bible.



The Suffering Servant: Isaiah 53

This amazing passage from the Hebrew Prophets was written over 700 years before the birth of Jesus. It is found in Jewish Bibles today, though it is left out of the weekly synagogue readings, as are many other texts of the Bible. When people read Isaiah 53 without knowing which part of the Bible it comes from, they often wrongly assume is from the New Testament. Did Isaiah foresee the sufferings of Jesus to pay for our sins? Though many modern rabbis --and some ancient rabbis-- say the sufferings described are those of the nation of Israel, most ancient rabbis said it refers to Messiah's sufferings. We have provided a link to some of the great rabbinic sources which interpreted the passage as referring to the Messiah, even though they did not believe in Jesus. We have also provided a link demonstrating why Isaiah 53 cannot refer to Israel and who it must necessarily refer to. You will also find some other interesting links below. The passage actually begins with the end of Isaiah chapter 52. Read it for yourself.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

52:13 Behold, my servant shall prosper,
he shall be exalted and lifted up,
and shall be very high.
52:14 As many were astonished at him ­­
his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance,
and his form beyond that of the sons of men ­­
52:15 so shall he sprinkle many nations;
kings shall shut their mouths because of him;
for that which has not been told them they shall see,
and that which they have not heard they shall understand.
53:1 Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
53:2 For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or comeliness that we should look at him,
and no beauty that we should desire him.
53:3 He was despised and rejected by men;
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
and as one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that made us whole,
and with his stripes we are healed.
53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned every one to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb,
so he opened not his mouth.
53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,
stricken for the transgression of my people?
53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked
and with a rich man in his death,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.
53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him;
he has put him to grief;
when he makes himself an offering for sin,
he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days;
the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand;
53:11 he shall see the fruit of the travail of his soul and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous;
and he shall bear their iniquities.
53:12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the great,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;
because he poured out his soul to death,
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
http://www.chaim.org/isaiah53.htm

Molly I wasn't refering to the Jews but I can see why you misunderstood me.
If Jesus is the Messiah, prove it.
That proof is in the OT. All sort of refrences and patterns to Him. That's why the OT is needed.

QuoteThough many modern rabbis --and some ancient rabbis-- say the sufferings described are those of the nation of Israel, most ancient rabbis said it refers to Messiah's sufferings.

It's also said Jews reject Jesus because Christianity attributed perfection to Jesus.
Talking about body/flesh (not spiritual). Jews expect a wreck. Sick. Bad looks. etc. (see another thread)

BTW why don't we call the Bible Torah? Bible is another pagan reference. Byblos was Phoenician city with the largest library of it's time. The city was in honor to their godess of wisdom. Yep, you guessed it Easter/Isthar.

Quote from: wwIf Jesus is the Messiah, prove it.
That proof is in the OT. All sort of refrences and patterns to Him. That's why the OT is needed

Exactly.  But the Protestants have always understood all of this.  That's why the first Bibles printed in the vernacular contained both Old and New Testaments.

Luther started with the NT and then followed that ten years later with the OT.

The Luther Bible is a German Bible translation by Martin Luther, first printed with both testaments in 1534. This translation became a force in shaping the Modern High German language. The project absorbed Luther's later years[1] The new translation was very widely disseminated thanks to the printing press. [2] [Wikipedia]


ww, I just want to add that I believe we are in a sort of dark ages of Christian understanding.  Until the 20th century when this understanding started getting lost, most Protestants were raised on the whole Bible and all these concepts you refer to, but much of that has now been lost.

ps We are in dark ages of science, too. 

Quote from: Molly on October 08, 2011, 04:36:14 PMww, I just want to add that I believe we are in a sort of dark ages of Christian understanding.  Until the 20th century when this understanding started getting lost, most Protestants were raised on the whole Bible and all these concepts you refer to, but much of that has now been lost.

Amos 8 [ACV]
11 Behold, the days come, says lord LORD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of LORD.

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 08, 2011, 04:56:42 PM

Quote from: Molly on October 08, 2011, 04:36:14 PMww, I just want to add that I believe we are in a sort of dark ages of Christian understanding.  Until the 20th century when this understanding started getting lost, most Protestants were raised on the whole Bible and all these concepts you refer to, but much of that has now been lost.

Amos 8 [ACV]
11 Behold, the days come, says lord LORD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of LORD.

Then he said, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but now I will go and wake him up." [John 11:11]


Ask you of the LORD rain in the time of the latter rain; so the LORD shall make bright clouds, and give them showers of rain, to every one grass in the field. [Zech 10:1]

The Rabbis observed these exceptions to God's general law, whereby He "sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust" Matthew 5:49, though expressing it in their way hyperbolically; , "In the time when Israel doeth the will of God, He doeth their will; so that if one man alone, and not the others, wants rain, He will give rain to that one man; and if a man wants one herb alone in his field or garden, and not another, He will give rain to that one herb; as one of the saints used to say, This plot of ground wants rain, and that plot of ground wants not rain" (Cyril).

Spiritually the rain is divine doctrine bedewing the mind and making it fruitful, as the rain doth the earth. So Moses saith, "My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distill as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb and as the showers upon the grass" Deuteronomy 32:2. Cyril: "The law of Moses and the prophets were the former rain."

--Barnes notes on the Bible

Not to wander off topic, this reply is related to the topic of this tread:

Some argue that Constantine was the first Pope
of the RC Church, weather he was the first Pope or wasn't makes no difference to me; Wasn't it Constantine who changed
some of the Jewish feasts into Pagan holidays like Christmas,  Easter, Halloween which the Catholic church celibrated as  All Saints day, and come along with Good Friday and on all Fridays the laity of the church were supposed to eat fish only, and other Pagan Holidays as well. wasn't Constantine the one who brought all the Pagan Holidays into the Church
when the Catholic Church become the FIRST State sponcered and official Church religion of Rome?

PS.  I do understand that Easter Pagan as it is, is supposed to be celibrating the Ressurection of Jesus Christ .


Peace,
Fire Walker

For he has rescued us from the kingdom of darkness..[Col 1:13]


to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.' [Acts 26:18]


For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.[Eph 6:12]



[this dark] "world"
G165
αἰών
aiōn

But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. [1 Cor 6:11]

...and those whom he justified he also glorified. [Rom 8:30]

Quote from: fire walker on October 09, 2011, 08:47:36 AM
Not to wander off topic, this reply is related to the topic of this tread:

Some argue that Constantine was the first Pope of the RC Church,

According to the RCC Apostle Peter was the first pope and Constantine the 88th. Of course that view is highly disputed outside the RCC.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm

Quoteweather he was the first Pope or wasn't makes no difference to me; Wasn't it Constantine who changed
some of the Jewish feasts into Pagan holidays like Christmas,  Easter, Halloween which the Catholic church celibrated as  All Saints day, and come along with Good Friday and on all Fridays the laity of the church were supposed to eat fish only, and other Pagan Holidays as well. wasn't Constantine the one who brought all the Pagan Holidays into the Church
when the Catholic Church become the FIRST State sponcered and official Church religion of Rome?

I think Contantine made things official and added new stuff. But false doctrine entered before that time.


http://www.religioustolerance.org/sabbath.htm
http://www.sabbath-day.info/
http://www.kencollins.com/answers/question-42.htm

1 Peter 1


1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

7That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

13Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

14As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

15But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

17And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

22Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

25But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Our faith is PROOF of who we are in Christ Jesus.  That is why it gives us such assurance and certainty.  Which faith of Christ we have shared in Christ and by Christ with all the saints [and that includes the OT saints] from the foundation of the world.


Now faith is the assurance that what we hope for will come about and the certainty that what we cannot see exists. [Heb 11:1]



8Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. [1 Peter 1]





Let this be recorded for future generations, so that a people not yet born will praise the LORD. [Psa 102:18]

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.[Rom 3:21]

Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses. [Acts 13:39]

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.[Rom 3:28]

Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, [Rom 5:1]

Quote from: jabcat on October 08, 2011, 06:52:02 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 06, 2011, 09:55:41 AM

When they refer to scripture in the New Testament, they are talking about the Old Testament, because there was not yet any New Testament complied.

I know that makes logical sense, and it may even be true   :laugh2:

Another thought;  surely God knew from the very beginning what He would have written down for us in the coming years - what would end up as our "canon".  The Holy Spirit would have known what was "coming" when Paul was inspired to write "all scripture is inspired and useful for..."  You know, the timelessness/other dimensions thing of God, Him being outside those limitations, etc.  So maybe He was really talking about more than the OT, at least in some instances, and especially the above quote of Paul, at least .

Yes. :laughing7:

I'm wondering... Are you able to see yet that the Old Testament saints [holy ones] had Christ?  I can't tell becaiuse I never seem to get any feedback on this from the forum.

I have realized that by some miracle I was taught the Old Testament through the lens of the Grace of the New Testament, and that is hardly ever the case it seems.

I knew Jesus before I knew anthing else.

I can't tell how  this is being received or if it is being received or if it even makes sense to anyone.  Or if everyone already knows this.

People do seem to get caught up in Law vs Grace, as if they are at odds, but the OT  prophets knew Christ, they talked with him, they wrote his words down,they had his faith --they  accessed the Law through the Grace and Truth of the Lord Jesus Christ.



Now therefore arise, O LORD God, into thy resting place, thou, and the ark of thy strength: let thy priests, O LORD God, be clothed with salvation, and let thy saints rejoice in goodness.
--2 Chron 6:41

 :bigGrin:   How close is this to what you see?

(from Free Republic)

How did the Old Testament saints get saved?
Bible Bulletin Board  -  John Macarthur

Question

Since people can be saved only through Christ, how did the Old Testament saints get saved?

Answer

Through Christ. Through Jesus Christ.

Question continues

But, Christ did not die until after they died.

Answer

Oh, you mean, what did they have to do at the moment to be saved?

Everyone is saved through Christ. He died for the sins of the world. For them, it was future. For us, it is past, but it was still through Christ. It was His death, His sacrifice. It atoned for the sins of the OT saints as well as the NT saints. And, every time they sacrificed a lamb, and every time they sacrificed a ram, and every time they sacrificed a turtle dove or a pigeon, every time they sacrificed any animal, it was the picture of Christ, the picture of Christ, the picture of Christ. So, they had to know that there was coming one who would pay the penalty for their sins, one ultimate sacrifice. Christ, alone, can save.

Now, the means for salvation has always been the same: Faith. And, at any given point in the unfolding revelation of the Word of God, salvation came through faith, believing God. Abraham believed God. It was counted him for righteousness. What did he believe? He believed as much as God had revealed. And, God had revealed even by that time that he was sinner and that the only savior was God, and that God would pay the penalty for his sin. Now, he didn't understand all there was to know about Jesus Christ, but he understood enough to know that he was a sinner and needed a savior and God would provide a savior. That is why it says in Hebrews 12, that Moses could foresee Christ, even Moses.

So, I believe, the OT people were saved by faith in God. They believed God's word as much as was revealed to them, and knew their own sinfulness. In fact, the reason they would carry out the sacrifices, and the reason they would do all the things God told them to do was an outworking of an inward faith. It was not to earn salvation. It was to demonstrate the reality of it. They were saved by faith in Christ. They didn't know who Christ was. And, they didn't know specifically when and how and all of that, but they believed God. They were sinful, and God would have to provide a sacrifice for them

I'm pretty sure John Macarthur isn't UR, and I'd guess he means only some "take advantage of the 'offer' ", but he uses some interesting terminology;

"Everyone is saved through Christ. He died for the sins of the world. For them, it was future. For us, it is past, but it was still through Christ. It was His death, His sacrifice. It atoned for the sins of the OT saints as well as the NT saints."   

9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. [Rom 8]



10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. [1 Peter 1]



21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. [2 Peter 1]



12Unto whom  it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. [1 Peter 1]



10 so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. [Eph 3:20]

good find

My name will be great among the nations, from the rising to the setting of the sun. In every place incense and pure offerings will be brought to my name, because my name will be great among the nations," says the LORD Almighty.[Mal 1:11]


And I tell you this, that many Gentiles will come from all over the world--from east and west--and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob at the feast in the Kingdom of Heaven. [Mat 8:11]

People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God.[Luke 13:29]


13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.[John 1:13]



9Go on up to a high mountain,

O Zion, herald of good news;

lift up your voice with strength,

O Jerusalem, herald of good news;

lift it up, fear not;

say to the cities of Judah,

"Behold your God!"

11He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

--Isa 40

Quote from: jabcat on October 10, 2011, 08:31:29 PM
I'm pretty sure John Macarthur isn't UR, and I'd guess he means only some "take advantage of the 'offer' ", but he uses some interesting terminology;

"Everyone is saved through Christ. He died for the sins of the world. For them, it was future. For us, it is past, but it was still through Christ. It was His death, His sacrifice. It atoned for the sins of the OT saints as well as the NT saints."   

My first impression was (and still is) that it's a "get God of the hook" or "plug the holes in my theology" article.

QuoteNow, the means for salvation has always been the same: Faith.

No. He starts his article with claiming salvation is only trough Jesus but a bit later he says faith in God is enough.

QuoteThey believed God's word as much as was revealed to them

In case of the rest of the world that was nothing. They are saved too?