Never..John 11.26

[redhotmagma]

CHB,

The Holy Spirit is inside us. "Don't you know you are the temple of the Holy Spirit".  Christ in you is the hope of glory.

Not taking sides btw, just pointing out :bigGrin:

[jabcat]

redhot, since you "didn't take sides", I "won't either"  lol

I did see a line in CHB's post though that I can REALLY identify with;   "I am not going to listen to my own mind speaking and call it truth. I don't listen to my own being or something within me [sometimes it is the Lord] because I can deceive myself into thinking something that is not truth. Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the WORD OF GOD."

I personally have to be VERY careful with that, not always taking what comes from "inside me" to be God speaking, without "testing it".  "...test everything. Hold on to what is good." I Thes. 5:21             Our hearts are deceitful (Jer. 17:9).  We can indeed hear the Lord (My sheep know my voice), but I for one must listen very carefully.  How many times have I blundered forward with something I "heard", taking it as from the Lord, when it turned to be I was flat out wrong?  Was that the Lord I heard?  No, many times it's been my own imagination.   :2c:  Again, we CAN and DO hear from the Lord, so I'm NOT saying we can't...but just a word to the wise, and hopefully I can be "wise".  :)  I pray for it.  Blessings.

[jabcat]

P.S. Brother Nathan, and all really, have said some very good things in these recent discussions.  Every participant loves and hears the Lord.  It just becomes obvious none of us have all the answers, see the complete picture.  We see in part, know in part, etc...  That's why we can learn from each other if we will.   :thumbsup:

God bless.

[Nathan]

Quote from: Nathan

    Seriously guys . . . do you think any of the Apostles got to the spiritual levels of relationship with God that they did by emphasizing meanings of words?  By arguing about what is Greek and what is mistranslated to say something else?  all of this is a continual extension of relying on our knowledge . .then at the end, we want to tag on that the Spirit will take our accumulated knowledge that we've acquired and lead us into the spiritual truth that other people who either don't have our intellectual drive, or the means for in-depth studies can not enter into?


You lost me here.
I was trying to point out the fact that spiritual truth "in" us doesn't require intellectual reasoning.  Of course we use our minds to communicate, ask questions, and even reason . . .but I'm not one that believes we're to rely more on our knowledge of information than we are to rely on our experiences in revelation. 

[/quote author=Nathan]
Faith doesn't come by gathering more facts . . .it comes by "hearing" the Word within us.  The rest of it turns into clanging symbols if we're not careful.  I'm not condemning, I'm just trying to point out the affects of the bigger picture with some of these conversations.
[/quote]

I am not going to listen to my own mind speaking and call it truth. I don't listen to my own being or something within me because I can deceive myself into thinking something that is not truth. Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the WORD OF GOD. 

You don't think our "mind" is the most subtle beast in all of the field?  The reason it "can" deceive us is because we're not "aware" of the fact that it's doing it.  The WORD OF GOD is exactly what I was referring to . . .not the written word on parchment, "that" word is inevidibly filtered through the very mind that is deceiving us.  The WORD OF GOD is the word that God has written IN OUR HEARTS . . .that's the "sound" that builds our faith.  You can't build what you can't see (your faith) with things that you "can" see.  (written Scripture)

(Heb. 11:13)  These ALL DIED in faith, NOT HAVING RECEIVED THE PROMISES,
If everyone goes on to heaven when they die why does it say they didn't receive the promises? What were the promises they didn't receive?
It isn't talking about not receiving the promises after they died.  It's saying they were given the prophecy of the coming of the promise, but died before it materialized in their generation.

Also in verse 40 of the same chapter it says "God having provided some better thing for us, THAY THEY WITHOUT US SHOULD NOT BE MADE PERFECT".

Please explain the above to me. It sounds to me that Paul is saying these people are still dead and have not received immortality yet?

I can't respond to the one verse you've pulled out . . .I need to see the context and right now, my time here is up.

[micah7:9]

"Jesus died and was resurrected in a glorified body.  He is the first fruit." Molly  ( Know the first fruit part)

We will not receive our glorified bodies until the end of the age." Molly

You seem to come up with sentences that sound like its biblical, but when I go to find scripture and verse, I get stumped.

Like the two above.
How about this Joh 13:31  When, therefore, he went forth, Jesus saith, `Now was the Son of Man glorified, and God was glorified in him;
Joh 13:32  if God was glorified in him, God also will glorify him in Himself; yea, immediately He will glorify him.

I have read nothing of this glorified bodies, I read much in religious and charismatic writings.
I have heard speak of spiritual death, I understand what it says but the Bible is lack of such word. I know that The Father drew me Jesus, I know that I have been born from above, I know that I am in the spirit Rom 8:1  There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit;
I know that I die daily, I know that this house of clay is temporary, I know that Jesus died for the sin of the whole world, I know that I have the mind of Christ, I know that I am supposed to compare spiritual with spiritual, I know 1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
I know that the Lord God said that will surely die and I know that the serpent said you will NOT surly die. I just happened to believe the Lord God over the serpents lie.

I know that these words are TRUE Joh 11:26  And, no one who liveth again and believeth on me, shall in anywise die, unto times age-abiding. Believest thou this?  YES YES! YES!  I believe this.

But I also know that we will die the death and that my body will return to the dust and that the Breath of life that the Lord God breathed into the dust will return to the one who gave it. I know that the natural day that I die I will know not anything. Waiting the rising again.
I know this as well Joh 3:13  and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down--the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

I know My Redeemer Lives, I know that I am alive in Him, these things I know for the Bible reads it and the Holy Spirit comforts me on this journey.
Psa 90:3 You can turn a mortal back to crushed dust And say, Return, O sons of humanity."

[micah7:9]

Then why all the sparring over death?  If God is light and in him there is no shadow or turning, where does the emphasis of this death and soul sleep and absence from the Father and "wages of sin" . . .all of it . . . what part of God's nature is being emphasized in these arguments?  What part of God's "light" does death fit in with?

I guess you will have to get that answer from God since he is the one who created death in the first place.

This whole topic has been one about something that is impossible to prove.  It's an argument at best.  I agree there are things in us that we, ourselves may need to flesh out from time to time.  But I struggle with the idea that we're to combine natural with spiritual when we're specifically called to walk in only "one" of those.  Yes, we are beings that have the ability to experience both natural and physical experiences.  But "which" are we to embrace and which are we to not rely on?  I have yet to come across anything that states the spirit is calling us to embrace our reasoning.

Isn't it true of most everything we discuss,...it being impossible to prove, that is?
I never said we were to imbrace our reasonings. Isn't it sensible to use our reasonings when discussing things?

The renewed mind is not one that relies on itself for spiritual truth.  It's one that has submitted to the spirit and has been transformed as a result.  But even "that" part is temporal because our minds are temporal.  Renewing the mind is a process and a repetition, an on-going submissive positioning.

You see, here is where part of the problem lies. You just said our minds are temporal, if it is renewed and spiritual how is it temporal? I thought it would never die? 

Genesis 6 speaks about what transpires when spiritual is blended with natural . . it never ends well.  Yes, our minds have a role, but it's a submissive one and yes, understanding does manifest, just as Molly has been trying to share on this particular subject.  But spiritual understanding doesn't come by natural means.  Faith is not a "natural" avenue people  rely on when pursuing knowledge.  Spiritual truth is birthed "from within" us, not from obtaining knowledge.

I thought spiritual truth came by the Holy Spirit not something within us? It comes from God not us.

Seriously guys . . . do you think any of the Apostles got to the spiritual levels of relationship with God that they did by emphasizing meanings of words?  By arguing about what is Greek and what is mistranslated to say something else?  all of this is a continual extension of relying on our knowledge . .then at the end, we want to tag on that the Spirit will take our accumulated knowledge that we've acquired and lead us into the spiritual truth that other people who either don't have our intellectual drive, or the means for in-depth studies can not enter into?

You lost me here.

[/quote author=Nathan]
Faith doesn't come by gathering more facts . . .it comes by "hearing" the Word within us.  The rest of it turns into clanging symbols if we're not careful.  I'm not condemning, I'm just trying to point out the affects of the bigger picture with some of these conversations.

I am not going to listen to my own mind speaking and call it truth. I don't listen to my own being or something within me because I can deceive myself into thinking something that is not truth. Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the WORD OF GOD.

(Heb. 11:13)  These ALL DIED in faith, NOT HAVING RECEIVED THE PROMISES,
If everyone goes on to heaven when they die why does it say they didn't receive the promises? What were the promises they didn't receive?

Also in verse 40 of the same chapter it says "God having provided some better thing for us, THAY THEY WITHOUT US SHOULD NOT BE MADE PERFECT".

Please explain the above to me. It sounds to me that Paul is saying these people are still dead and have not received immortality yet?

CHB

CHB
[/quote]

:grin: Stand CHB Stand :thumbsup:

[micah7:9]

Molly, one who walks in faith will always see things that one who doesn't walk in faith can not see.  Your faith is what is revealing to you this "mystery".  And "from" that perspective of your faith, the Scriptures you read will also manifest what your spirit sees.  It's all good!

The frustration comes when one tries to explain that which can't be seen.  The only way to see these things it through the spirit in us, not through logic and reason.  Faith and spirit go hand in hand, neither can be seen, but both can see what can't be seen.  The best you can do is embrace what you're able to see due to your spirit revealing what can't be seen, and let those that embrace the tangible things be.  It'll only result in weariness on both ends.  It's one thing to plant a seed in fertile soil, a whole other matter when the soil isn't in season for the seed to be received.

A person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with an argument.  Seeing what can't be seen is not knowledge, but it's an inward experience that births a "knowing" in us.  You may want to do some digging around the passages where Jesus instructed those to whom he personally touched not to tell any "men" of what they either experienced or saw.

This conversation has been exasperating.  :thumbsup: YOU GOT THAT RIGHT! :bigGrin:

[Molly]

I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. [1 Cor 15:50]

Why is it that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom?  It is because the life is in the blood.  The blood is the corruptible source of life.  And the perishable cannot inherit the imperishable.

Thus we see the sprinkling of the blood over all manner of the Temple to make things holy.  It is the blood of Christ that we refer to here.  Was his blood perishable?  Most certainly, he was in the body of a man.  The blood of Christ signifies the sacrifice of the holy, the just for the unjust, to make us whole.

Yet, we see the resurrected Christ still in flesh, but his blood has been given to the world.  Now he calls his body 'flesh and bone.'  This then is one quality of the glorified body.  No blood, no corruption.  The blood has been replaced by Spirit.  We, too, will be flesh and bone at the final redemption of our bodies.

Matthew 26:28 ...this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

And after my body has decayed, yet in my body I will see God!  [Job 19:26]

[redhotmagma]

flesh=the tabernacle curtains/veils
bones=the poles and supports

[Molly]

flesh=the tabernacle curtains/veils
bones=the poles and supports

By his death, Jesus opened a new and life-giving way through the curtain into the Most Holy Place.


And so, dear brothers and sisters, we can boldly enter heaven's Most Holy Place because of the blood of Jesus.


by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,

--Heb 10:19,20

[Molly]

The first tabernacle = Adam=flesh and blood.





(But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance.Heb 9:7)
(The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing. Heb 9:8)

[sheila]

    those that died in faith awaiting the promised seed and NEW Covenat....are not made perfect[law could make nothing perfect] apart from us.....=

   partakers of the NEW AND BETTER COVENANT INSTITUTED BY THE PROMISED SEED.......GRACE.

   Under the old law covenant the people hoped in a resurrected flesh body on the earth[righteousness through law]  the law is GOOD, but when that

   which is perfect comes, so,too, a BETTER resurrection. A HEAVENLY RESURRECTION...of just spirits made perfect that enter into the heavenly

   eternal city.   Thus, they shall not be made perfect apart from us.......spirits of just men made perfect clothed in incorruptible garments

[Molly]

Yes, but one day that garment of the righteous will be the resurrected glorified body of Christ and they will walk on this earth.


Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. [Mat 5:5]



And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. [Rom 8:30]

[sheila]

    the Law is a tutor to lead us to Christ. LOVE AND PERFECTION/LIGHTS THE FULLNESS AND FULFILLING OF THE LOVE OF GOD AND MAN

     If LOVE is not there...the law will NOT REVEAL OR DECLARE IT....BUT WILL RESTRAIN/CENSOR EVIDENCE OF IT'S LACK[OF FULLNESS}

   IT THUS REVEALS LAWLESSNESS OF MISSING THE MARK OF SPIRITUAL PERFECTION..FALLINS SHORT OF GOD'S GLORY?PERFECTION AND LOVE....


       Awake not Love until HE desires......God's LOVE FOR MANKIND AWAKENED AND FULFILLED THE LAW OF HIS LOVE...and thus....

      THE KINGDOM OF THE LOVE IN HIS SON WAS BEGOT THAT DAY. Can a nation be born in a day? NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE WITH GOD!

    AND WE LOVE HIM,BECAUSE HE FIRST LOVED US[see how He teaches us?] AND ALL YOUR CHILDREN SHALL BE TAUGHT OF THE LORD!!

     

[Molly]

So now we see the spirits of just men made perfect inhabiting the holy city in heaven, the new Jerusalem, the great assembly and church of the firstborn, which communion we can now enter into in that Most Holy place through the blood of Jesus and through the veil which is his flesh. This is the rest he speaks of us entering into, the promised land.


Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. Heb 4:16


Later, we see that heavenly holy city coming to earth like a bride prepared for her groom, that groom the glorified body of Christ, and the new wine will enter the new wineskins of flesh and bone.


I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.[Rev 21:2]

[Molly]

How do you know that you are his chosen and beloved, his holy ones?  Because you believe!
You are his priests according to the order of Melchizedek.


that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. [John 3:15]

And you are living stones that God is building into his spiritual temple. What's more, you are his holy priests. Through the mediation of Jesus Christ, you offer spiritual sacrifices that please God. [1 Peter 2:5]

one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life.[Heb 7:16]

[sheila]

 YES WE DO WEAR THAT GLORIFIED GARMENT OF CHRIST RIGHT NOW! ON THIS EARTH. DECLARED RIGHTEOUS AND CLOTHED BY HIM

  SITTING IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH HIM. GLORY. WE have inherited all things of heaven and earth. We go in and out of the spiritual city

   as we walk on this earth[see Paul's testimony about caught up to paradise/whether in or out of the body,I do not know]No vail constrains

  in the spirit. There is a time when we will go in and come out no more. We who used to be alienated from Him,have now through the spirit

  inherited this earth[the better spiritual resurrection has come] the camp'tent' our flesh/of the Holy city[our spirits] dwell and exist at present.

   Has the Glory of Christ not been revealed?in us... has the Holy spirit not let us into the wilderness and given us back the vineyards? Has He not

  'wooed' us with His love? Has He not caused Babylon to fall for our sakes? Has He not abyssed satan?'accusor" Do we not judge 'angels' spirit messages

   whether of Christ or not? Does not the spirit of Christ reign in us through His Holy spirit? Do we not rule the nations[uncircumcized flesh/carnal] with a rod of iron

= JUDGE AS CARNAL TEACHING eternal torture,in essence 'shattering that vessel of wrath' into bits by the truth revealed in Him?

     I see these things occurring now. The further increasing of it will become a mountain filling the earth[MT ZION].

    'tent' maker.....you are a camp of the Holy city  NOW....awaiting the fire of His spirit to deliver from all opposition.   THE LORD REIGNS!

[Molly]

 :thumbsup: :bgdance: :bgdance:

[redhotmagma]

BOOM goes the dynamite Sheila :HeartThrob:

[Molly]

8For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

9(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)



30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

--Eph 5

[Nathan]

There are dimensions to everything.  And the flesh I referred to was carnal flesh in us.  Why can't flesh and blood enter into the kingdom?  For me, flesh and blood is based on natural reasoning, which is directly connected to the temporal side of man.  Where as the spirit of man is where the truth of God is revealed because it's a spirit to spirit language.  If flesh could enter into spiritual, there would have been no need for the circumcision.

[Molly]

This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.[Jer 31:33]


I delight to do Your will, O my God, Your law is within my heart. [Psa 40:8]


But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. [Rom 2:29]

[Nathan]

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. [Rom 2:29]

I'm never quite sure what the intent is when "just" a passage of Scripture is posted with no remarks included . . . but much of our tennis-ball conversations seem to stem from verses like the one above.  All I can speak to is my own intentions of where it is I'm coming from.  My intent is merely to illuminate the importance of spiritual pursuit over natural logic or reasoning. 

When I say everything is spiritual or dimensional, it's merely stating what this verse is also touching on.  The "reason" behind physical circumcision was to reveal the spiritual principle of the "spiritual" circumcision that takes place within every one of us individually.  Ever wonder "why there?"  Why "that" flesh?  Why from males and not females?  Why couldn't it have been excess flesh from around the waste?  Or under one's arm, or even ones chin?  Why did it have to be the flesh that was a part of the male organ?

There is GREAT significance to all of this.  But that's only one tiny part of what's being stated here.  Why did he then also say "not in the letter . . ."  What message is he trying to tell us?  Could it be that he's trying to tell us that the things God shows us inwardly should take precedence of the things our eyes "read" in Scripture?  Because "that's" where God speaks to his children, through their hearts rather than their heads?  "Scripture was inspired by the Holy Ghost . . ."  Of course it was, The "spirit" inspired men to write it, so wouldn't it only make sense that what is spiritually inspired is to be spiritually discerned?  Yet many spend so much time and effort building a reputation for themselves based on their "knowledge" of what the "letter" is stating rather than receiving the unseen message the Spirit is giving through what's been written.

We all would love to receive recommendation from each other.  We all would love to have pats on the backs from each other, telling us how much the things we've said really spoke to them.  But the truth is, it's not our spirit that desires that attention, it's our ego.  Our spirit desires the pat on the back from the Spirit that authored the Scripture, not from the hands of others who's minds agree with our interpretations.  It'd be great if we had both, but the more you delve into the spiritual matters, the more it stirs up resistance in the minds of those to whom you are trying to spiritually release your seed in.  Everything is reactive to the season in which it's living in.  It's "our" responsibility to know what season the other individual is in as to whether or not life-seeds can be planted in their fields.

Paul was trying to relay the same thing in this verse.  It's not what is outwardly that matters, it's what's inwardly.  We are all Jews "inwardly" because the Holy Spirit has/is/continues to circumcise our carnality from our life-releasing spirit . . ."that's" why it was to be removed from the male organ, it's connected to reproduction . . .always is.

[Molly]

Or you could also say it is connected to farming.  Our God is a farmer.

Thus the seed lies dormant until its hard shell is cut and watered, then, as it breaks through the soil, sunlight!

Our hard hearts are like that seed, and the word of God is the circumcisor.

For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.  Heb 4:12

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, but can flesh?

Oh yes.

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. Eze 36:26

[Nathan]

You shift spiritual gears . . .carnal flesh and flesh and blood are the same thing.  . . on one level/dimension.

But the flesh you speak of is not carnal, but spiritual . . . he doesn't write his word upon my flesh of carnality, flesh profits nothing . . .
but upon my heart of flesh that you speak of is upon my inward nature, my spirit man, my anointed man . . . we just gotta define one dimension from another is all.