Never..John 11.26

[micah7:9]

Well, I would like to see you cut yourself and not bleed, I would see you are spirit, then I would reconsider what the Word of God says.
Should you BE THERE [ with them[cloud of witness], which you say are not dead, the Bible says they are dead(they cant be in that place called heaven for NO ONE has ascended to heaven save Jesus who came from heaven,) you would have to be spirit,  flesh and blood cant enter. You say you are not going to die, so you cant be resurrected, cause it is the resurrection of the dead.
And you have heralded that YOU will NEVER die, sooo?

[Molly]

Well, I would like to see you cut yourself and not bleed, I would see you are spirit, then I would reconsider what the Word of God says.
Should you BE THERE [ with them[cloud of witness], which you say are not dead, the Bible says they are dead(they cant be in that place called heaven for NO ONE has ascended to heaven save Jesus who came from heaven,) you would have to be spirit,  flesh and blood cant enter. You say you are not going to die, so you cant be resurrected, cause it is the resurrection of the dead.
And you have heralded that YOU will NEVER die, sooo?

We are raised together with him, as I've already shown you.  There's a limit to how much I'm going to repeat myself.


But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

--Eph 2



This is happening PRESENT TENSE.

[micah7:9]

Well, I would like to see you cut yourself and not bleed, I would see you are spirit, then I would reconsider what the Word of God says.
Should you BE THERE [ with them[cloud of witness], which you say are not dead, the Bible says they are dead(they cant be in that place called heaven for NO ONE has ascended to heaven save Jesus who came from heaven,) you would have to be spirit,  flesh and blood cant enter. You say you are not going to die, so you cant be resurrected, cause it is the resurrection of the dead.
And you have heralded that YOU will NEVER die, sooo?

We are raised together with him, as I've already shown you.  There's a limit to how much I'm going to repeat myself.


But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

--Eph 2



This is happening PRESENT TENSE.

"This is happening PRESENT TENSE."

By Jove! I believe your catching on!

[Molly]

Well, I would like to see you cut yourself and not bleed, I would see you are spirit, then I would reconsider what the Word of God says.
Should you BE THERE [ with them[cloud of witness], which you say are not dead, the Bible says they are dead(they cant be in that place called heaven for NO ONE has ascended to heaven save Jesus who came from heaven,) you would have to be spirit,  flesh and blood cant enter. You say you are not going to die, so you cant be resurrected, cause it is the resurrection of the dead.
And you have heralded that YOU will NEVER die, sooo?

We are raised together with him, as I've already shown you.  There's a limit to how much I'm going to repeat myself.


But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

--Eph 2



This is happening PRESENT TENSE.

"This is happening PRESENT TENSE."

By Jove! I believe your catching on!

Yes, and that is how we can attend the church of the firstborn in the heavenly Jerusalem right now.  This day

We have already been raised together with him into heavenly places.

[micah7:9]

O WELL! :dontknow:

[Molly]

12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead
--Col 2:12


Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! [2 Cor 5:17]



If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
--Col 3:1


"raised with"  [Christ]
G4891
συνεγείρω
sunegeirō
soon-eg-i'-ro
From G4862 and G1453; to rouse (from death) in company with, that is, (figuratively) to revivify (spiritually) in resemblance to: - raise up together, rise with.

[micah7:9]

Yep. That's what I've been trying to tell you, you just seem to lack the patience. :swordfight: :bigGrin:

Lets just drop this I'm getting terribly dizzy, circles you know to many and you get sick. :sigh: :HeartThrob:

[Molly]

Yep. That's what I've been trying to tell you, you just seem to lack the patience. :swordfight: :bigGrin:

Lets just drop this I'm getting terribly dizzy, circles you know to many and you get sick. :sigh: :HeartThrob:

What exactly are you trying to tell me?  Why don't you spell it out.

I'm trying to tell you that we are raised with Christ right now and seated in heavenly places with him right now.

The proof of this is our faith.

And, if we are seated in the heavens with Christ right now, we have already been given and do possess eternal life.

But since you continue to mock me, I'm pretty much finished with this conversation anyway.

[micah7:9]

Yep. That's what I've been trying to tell you, you just seem to lack the patience. :swordfight: :bigGrin:

Lets just drop this I'm getting terribly dizzy, circles you know to many and you get sick. :sigh: :HeartThrob:

What exactly are you trying to tell me?  Why don't you spell it out.

I'm trying to tell you that we are raised with Christ right now and seated in heavenly places with him right now.

The proof of this is our faith.

And, if we are seated in the heavens with Christ right now, we have already been given and do possess eternal life.

But since you continue to mock me, I'm pretty much finished with this conversation anyway.

"What exactly are you trying to tell me?  Why don't you spell it out."  "D -Y- I- N- G   T- H -O -U    D- O -S -T   D -I -E."

Gen 2:17  and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.

[jabcat]

From the related "Dead Know Nothing" thread (these threads could be merged, they're sort of following the same track);

"Jesus' death... paid the price for your resurrection from the dead!  As the wages of sin is death,...  so if you actually lived on after death in a unbody state. Then the debt has not been paid as you never died, just your body!  Jesus did not die for your physical body to be raised!  He died for your sinning soul! YOU! Your mind and thoughts to continue to exist in a new spiritual body!" 

Paul

Are you saying that before Jesus died and rose again, the plan was that all people would stay physically dead forever, and that exclusively is what Jesus' death (and resurrection) addressed?  Seems to me more was dealt with by our Savior's sacrifice and resurrection than that.  I'd propose that Adam became spiritually dead due to his sin, while he was dying physically - sort of "package deal".  "Dying [physically?] thou dost die [spiritually?]". Is that possibly talking about 2 kinds of death?

Hopefully we all believe Jesus reversed the curse of sin.  Seems to me, part of the issue here is the understanding of just what is the curse of sin?  I keep thinking about this topic, and I admittedly don't have every aspect of it clear in my mind.  It can be difficult to "sort this out" rather than just defend a position.   :mblush:

A thought;  when considering spiritual vs. physical - they were told to not eat of the tree of knowledge, not the tree of life - which could imply a spiritual not ["just"] physical death...    :scratchhead:   Doesn't Genesis 3:22-23, which states that Adam and Eve were expelled from Eden to prevent them obtaining immortality by eating of the Tree of Life, indicate they were already mortal by default?   

Along with that, there apparently was already a belief amongst the Jews (except for the Sadducees) about a resurrection from physical death, which of course was before Jesus' birth.  Molly, sheila (or anyone) do you know where that belief came from at that time from the Old Testament scriptures?

  Here's an interesting excerpt worth considering, IMO.

-------------------------------------
"Death through sin" is not equivalent to physical death

by Dr. Hugh Ross, M.Sc., Ph.D. (from his book "Creation And Time")

1. "Death through sin" is not equivalent to physical death. Romans 5:12 says, "Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned." Some have interpreted this verse as implying no death of any kind for any creature existed before Adam's sin and, therefore, only a brief time could have transpired between the creation of the first life-forms and Adam's sin.
The proponents of such a view fail to realize that the absence of physical death would pose just as great a problem for three twenty-four-hour days as it would for three billion years. Many species of life cannot survive for even three hours without food, and the mere ingestion of food by animals requires death of at least plants or plant parts.

Are birds and mammals condemned to "death through sin"?

Of all life on the earth, only humans have earned the title "sinner." Only humans can experience "death through sin." Note that the death Adam experienced is carefully qualified in the text as being visited on "all men" - not on plants and animals, just on human beings (Romans 5:12,18-19).

The book of Romans discusses four kinds of death: death to the law, death to sin, physical death, and spiritual death. Romans 5:12 addresses neither physical nor soulish death. It addresses spiritual death. When Adam sinned, he instantly "died," just as God said he would ("In the day that you eat of it, you shall surely die" - Genesis 2:17, NKJV). Yet, he remained alive physically and soulishly (i.e., mentally, volitionally, and emotionally). He died spiritually. He broke his harmonious fellowship with God and introduced the inclination to place one's own way above God's.

In the same manner, it has been established that 1 Corinthians 15:21 ("since death came through a man") also must refer to spiritual death rather than to physical death. As the following two verses in 1 Corinthians explain, "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him" (verses 22-23). Christ grants eternal life through His crucifixion and resurrection, and will give believers indestructible bodies at His return. Christ's crucifixion and resurrection conquered sin and removed the barrier Adam erected between humanity and God. Any person choosing spiritual life in Christ will receive it. Eventually, at Christ's second coming, the eternal spiritual life that the believer in Christ already possesses results in eternal physical life.

Genesis 3 records that after Adam and Eve died (spiritually) through sin, God sent an angel to block their access to the tree of life. Apparently Adam and Eve had the potential for eternal physical life before and after sinning against God. Knowing that eternal physical life in their newly acquired sinful condition ultimately would be disastrous for them and their descendants, God barred their access to it. God would not allow His plan to be thwarted.  Dr. Hugh Ross

[sheila]

Father forbid the eating of the tree of life in the garden,after deception[spiritual dying/entered] and disobediance[physical death/undeceived spirit/ corruption entered] 

so that  man would not remain in that death state eternally.as a deceived spirit,hostage to the deception of the evil spirits.[expierence demonic state eternally/] 

The TOL is granted only after mercy and free gift given of eternal spiritual  life/spirit of truth/spiritual regeneration.

   Only after the 'saving' of the spirit from deception...and new spirit of truth given[regeneration] and death of disobediant flesh[sin entered=evil spirit destroying]

  is new immortal body given.      the spirit is immortal and can be regenerated[he will not extinguish a flaxen wick=golden oil/truth] He 'lights' the candle

  of every man=regenerate spirit deceived.....[evil spirit =contaminated impure oil=sputtering..light with shadows[of which God's spirit has no variation of a shadow]

   Now the corruption of the flesh part of the equation He has dealt with by clotheing regenerated spirit creature in immortal,incorruptible bodies.

    thus spirit is immortal[from/of God] and can be regenerated.[trim flaxen/linen wick add pure golden oil..].flesh is not....for it is corruptible[naked]and serpent

   food[serpent eat dust]   When He clothes with incorruption serpent dies from starvation/no substinance.


    it is not true that only man is affected by the corrupted spirit[serpent the most subtil beast of the feild] so too the animals that lost their proper nature..

   devouring beasts..and even thorny trees,briars,poisonous weeds....the whole creation has been affected...due to Adam givien dominion of theearth

    when the evil one gained the upper hand through deception and disobediance...the entire world was deceived.

    New Heaven= new regenerated spirit, new earth = incorruptible vessels[corruption no longer able to enter]

 

[Molly]

Yep. That's what I've been trying to tell you, you just seem to lack the patience. :swordfight: :bigGrin:

Lets just drop this I'm getting terribly dizzy, circles you know to many and you get sick. :sigh: :HeartThrob:

What exactly are you trying to tell me?  Why don't you spell it out.

I'm trying to tell you that we are raised with Christ right now and seated in heavenly places with him right now.

The proof of this is our faith.

And, if we are seated in the heavens with Christ right now, we have already been given and do possess eternal life.

But since you continue to mock me, I'm pretty much finished with this conversation anyway.

"What exactly are you trying to tell me?  Why don't you spell it out."  "D -Y- I- N- G   T- H -O -U    D- O -S -T   D -I -E."

Gen 2:17  and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.

First of all, I reject that is what Gen 2:17 says.  It says, thou shalt surely die! --muth said twice for emphasis.   As long as Adam is in the garden with access to the tree of life, he is not dying.  He is living.  It is his separation from God that causes his death condition. 

Jesus has reconciled us with God.  We are no longer separated from God.  Through Christ, we are no longer death food for the serpent.




Isa 9:2 The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned.

Isaiah 42:16 I will lead the blind by ways they have not known, along unfamiliar paths I will guide them; I will turn the darkness into light before them and make the rough places smooth. These are the things I will do; I will not forsake them.


And a highway shall be there, and it shall be called the Way of Holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it. It shall belong to those who walk on the way; even if they are fools, they shall not go astray. [Isa 35:8]

[CHB]

Yep. That's what I've been trying to tell you, you just seem to lack the patience. :swordfight: :bigGrin:

Lets just drop this I'm getting terribly dizzy, circles you know to many and you get sick. :sigh: :HeartThrob:

What exactly are you trying to tell me?  Why don't you spell it out.

I'm trying to tell you that we are raised with Christ right now and seated in heavenly places with him right now.

The proof of this is our faith.

And, if we are seated in the heavens with Christ right now, we have already been given and do possess eternal life.

But since you continue to mock me, I'm pretty much finished with this conversation anyway.

Hi Molly,

I see what you are saying and what you say above is true, we are SPIRITUALLY sitting in Christ on the right hand of God.

Even though we are SPIRITUALLY sitting in heaven NOW doesn't mean that we don't sin, that we won't die a physically death. In reality we are still hear in the flesh. I don't really know how to explain it.

OK, lets say we are in heaven NOW literally. Can you tell me that you see God? can you tell me what you see up there as far as angels, Christ? What does the surroundings look like?

You see, I think it is a process. Jesus Christ was slain before the foundation of the earth, but was he really? Or was this as though it had already happened, even though it hadn't?

I think that Paul knew that it was as though we already were sitting in Christ in the heavenlies but physically we are still here on earth.

When Jesus said those who believe on me will never die, was he speaking spiritually or physically? I think he meant that we spiritually, like in our being, our being in him so to speak,  would never die, even though our bodies would. We are sealed, spiritually and have died and been resurrected in a sense but we still have to go through a process of it all just like Jesus did, even though he died before the foundation of the world.

Hope I explained this so it makes some sense?

CHB

[Molly]

When Jesus said those who believe on me will never die, was he speaking spiritually or physically? I think he meant that we spiritually, like in our being, our being in him so to speak,  would never die, even though our bodies would. We are sealed, spiritually and have died and been resurrected in a sense but we still have to go through a process of it all just like Jesus did, even though he died before the foundation of the world.

Physically, we know that we live in temporary tents.  No one was ever suggesting that these tents will be a permanent home.  Even those alive and living in their tents when Jesus returns will be changed physically.

But when/if I discard this tent as my garment, I know that God has created an eternal home for me in heaven.  So I will not lose consciousness, I will not be 'dead,' I will not perish---I will simply move from one home to another more permanent one.  That's 2 Cor 5:1.  Thus, I will always be with the Lord.

Think of the hermit crab.  He doesn't die when he leaves his shell.  :bigGrin:

[Nathan]

Molly, one who walks in faith will always see things that one who doesn't walk in faith can not see.  Your faith is what is revealing to you this "mystery".  And "from" that perspective of your faith, the Scriptures you read will also manifest what your spirit sees.  It's all good!

The frustration comes when one tries to explain that which can't be seen.  The only way to see these things it through the spirit in us, not through logic and reason.  Faith and spirit go hand in hand, neither can be seen, but both can see what can't be seen.  The best you can do is embrace what you're able to see due to your spirit revealing what can't be seen, and let those that embrace the tangible things be.  It'll only result in weariness on both ends.  It's one thing to plant a seed in fertile soil, a whole other matter when the soil isn't in season for the seed to be received.

A person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with an argument.  Seeing what can't be seen is not knowledge, but it's an inward experience that births a "knowing" in us.  You may want to do some digging around the passages where Jesus instructed those to whom he personally touched not to tell any "men" of what they either experienced or saw.

This conversation has been exasperating.

[Molly]

I see what you are saying and what you say above is true, we are SPIRITUALLY sitting in Christ on the right hand of God.

Even though we are SPIRITUALLY sitting in heaven NOW doesn't mean that we don't sin, that we won't die a physically death. In reality we are still hear in the flesh. I don't really know how to explain it.

This tent I'm living in is dead matter.  Again, it is like the shell of the hermit crab.  That is what Paul keeps telling us, we were pulled down into the carnal and held captive by death until Jesus released us.


When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. [Col 2:13, 14]


This happened once and for all at the cross.  Jesus paid our debt in full which is death.  It's like we were in debtors prison until we pay up and now we are free.  No more debt.  We are free to leave the prison which is our tent bodies, our carnal nature.   But, although it happened once and for all at the cross, it is now playing itself out in each individual life, as preordained by God.

I don't know about you, but if someone opens the prison door for me, I'm walking out.   :bigGrin:


For he has rescued us from the kingdom of darkness and transferred us into the Kingdom of his dear Son,who purchased our freedom and forgave our sins. [Col 1:13,14]

[CHB]

Another LOGICALLY thing is, when Jesus was resurrected he had not ascended to the Father right away, how do you explain that as to us going on to heaven when we die?

Nathan, I think it takes faith, spirit, logic, reasoning's, all these things to come to an accurate understanding of things.  We are both physical and spiritual so I think it is natural to use both to discern things

CHB 

[sheila]

Amen!

[Molly]

Another LOGICALLY thing is, when Jesus was resurrected he had not ascended to the Father right away, how do you explain that as to us going on to heaven when we die?

Nathan, I think it takes faith, spirit, logic, reasoning's, all these things to come to an accurate understanding of things.  We are both physical and spiritual so I think it is natural to use both to discern things

CHB

Jesus died and was resurrected in a glorified body.  He is the first fruit.

We will not receive our glorified bodies until the end of the age.

When I say we are born out of due time, I mean we were born from above in the wrong age.

We are like premature babies, a type of first fruits.   We are being saved from the inside out.

Hence even the eternal home in heaven that he has prepared for us is only for the age. [eternal=aionios]

At the end of the age, that will be replaced by the glorified bodiy of Christ--and we shall be fully redeemed.

[Molly]

Molly, one who walks in faith will always see things that one who doesn't walk in faith can not see.  Your faith is what is revealing to you this "mystery".  And "from" that perspective of your faith, the Scriptures you read will also manifest what your spirit sees.  It's all good!

The frustration comes when one tries to explain that which can't be seen.  The only way to see these things it through the spirit in us, not through logic and reason.  Faith and spirit go hand in hand, neither can be seen, but both can see what can't be seen.  The best you can do is embrace what you're able to see due to your spirit revealing what can't be seen, and let those that embrace the tangible things be.  It'll only result in weariness on both ends.  It's one thing to plant a seed in fertile soil, a whole other matter when the soil isn't in season for the seed to be received.

A person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with an argument.  Seeing what can't be seen is not knowledge, but it's an inward experience that births a "knowing" in us.  You may want to do some digging around the passages where Jesus instructed those to whom he personally touched not to tell any "men" of what they either experienced or saw.

This conversation has been exasperating.

Thank you.

I keep telling myself, 'Shut up, Molly!' :laughing7:

But, then I think maybe if I just could communicate it better...

Even so, you have no idea how much I bite my tongue--not just here, but everywhere.

"Seeing what can't be seen is not knowledge"---That's a great way to put it.   Thanks!

[Nathan]

Another LOGICALLY thing is, when Jesus was resurrected he had not ascended to the Father right away, how do you explain that as to us going on to heaven when we die?

Nathan, I think it takes faith, spirit, logic, reasoning's, all these things to come to an accurate understanding of things.  We are both physical and spiritual so I think it is natural to use both to discern things

CHB 

Then why all the sparring over death?  If God is light and in him there is no shadow or turning, where does the emphasis of this death and soul sleep and absence from the Father and "wages of sin" . . .all of it . . . what part of God's nature is being emphasized in these arguments?  What part of God's "light" does death fit in with?

This whole topic has been one about something that is impossible to prove.  It's an argument at best.  I agree there are things in us that we, ourselves may need to flesh out from time to time.  But I struggle with the idea that we're to combine natural with spiritual when we're specifically called to walk in only "one" of those.  Yes, we are beings that have the ability to experience both natural and physical experiences.  But "which" are we to embrace and which are we to not rely on?  I have yet to come across anything that states the spirit is calling us to embrace our reasoning.

The renewed mind is not one that relies on itself for spiritual truth.  It's one that has submitted to the spirit and has been transformed as a result.  But even "that" part is temporal because our minds are temporal.  Renewing the mind is a process and a repetition, an on-going submissive positioning. 

Genesis 6 speaks about what transpires when spiritual is blended with natural . . it never ends well.  Yes, our minds have a role, but it's a submissive one and yes, understanding does manifest, just as Molly has been trying to share on this particular subject.  But spiritual understanding doesn't come by natural means.  Faith is not a "natural" avenue people  rely on when pursuing knowledge.  Spiritual truth is birthed "from within" us, not from obtaining knowledge.

Seriously guys . . . do you think any of the Apostles got to the spiritual levels of relationship with God that they did by emphasizing meanings of words?  By arguing about what is Greek and what is mistranslated to say something else?  all of this is a continual extension of relying on our knowledge . .then at the end, we want to tag on that the Spirit will take our accumulated knowledge that we've acquired and lead us into the spiritual truth that other people who either don't have our intellectual drive, or the means for in-depth studies can not enter into?

Faith doesn't come by gathering more facts . . .it comes by "hearing" the Word within us.  The rest of it turns into clanging symbols if we're not careful.  I'm not condemning, I'm just trying to point out the affects of the bigger picture with some of these conversations.

[sheila]

...this last posts brought to mind Stephen's declaration..[pre-Nathans]

     .'LOOK,I SEE HEAVEN OPENED AND THE SON OF MAN STANDING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD"

[sheila]

   Better Covenant=Better resurrection...life eternal in spirit

...old law covenant[sin condemned in flesh]

[Molly]

 :thumbsup:

[CHB]

Then why all the sparring over death?  If God is light and in him there is no shadow or turning, where does the emphasis of this death and soul sleep and absence from the Father and "wages of sin" . . .all of it . . . what part of God's nature is being emphasized in these arguments?  What part of God's "light" does death fit in with?

I guess you will have to get that answer from God since he is the one who created death in the first place.

This whole topic has been one about something that is impossible to prove.  It's an argument at best.  I agree there are things in us that we, ourselves may need to flesh out from time to time.  But I struggle with the idea that we're to combine natural with spiritual when we're specifically called to walk in only "one" of those.  Yes, we are beings that have the ability to experience both natural and physical experiences.  But "which" are we to embrace and which are we to not rely on?  I have yet to come across anything that states the spirit is calling us to embrace our reasoning.

Isn't it true of most everything we discuss,...it being impossible to prove, that is?
I never said we were to imbrace our reasonings. Isn't it sensible to use our reasonings when discussing things?

The renewed mind is not one that relies on itself for spiritual truth.  It's one that has submitted to the spirit and has been transformed as a result.  But even "that" part is temporal because our minds are temporal.  Renewing the mind is a process and a repetition, an on-going submissive positioning.

You see, here is where part of the problem lies. You just said our minds are temporal, if it is renewed and spiritual how is it temporal? I thought it would never die? 

Genesis 6 speaks about what transpires when spiritual is blended with natural . . it never ends well.  Yes, our minds have a role, but it's a submissive one and yes, understanding does manifest, just as Molly has been trying to share on this particular subject.  But spiritual understanding doesn't come by natural means.  Faith is not a "natural" avenue people  rely on when pursuing knowledge.  Spiritual truth is birthed "from within" us, not from obtaining knowledge.

I thought spiritual truth came by the Holy Spirit not something within us? It comes from God not us.

Seriously guys . . . do you think any of the Apostles got to the spiritual levels of relationship with God that they did by emphasizing meanings of words?  By arguing about what is Greek and what is mistranslated to say something else?  all of this is a continual extension of relying on our knowledge . .then at the end, we want to tag on that the Spirit will take our accumulated knowledge that we've acquired and lead us into the spiritual truth that other people who either don't have our intellectual drive, or the means for in-depth studies can not enter into?

You lost me here.

[/quote author=Nathan]
Faith doesn't come by gathering more facts . . .it comes by "hearing" the Word within us.  The rest of it turns into clanging symbols if we're not careful.  I'm not condemning, I'm just trying to point out the affects of the bigger picture with some of these conversations.
[/quote]

I am not going to listen to my own mind speaking and call it truth. I don't listen to my own being or something within me because I can deceive myself into thinking something that is not truth. Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the WORD OF GOD.

(Heb. 11:13)  These ALL DIED in faith, NOT HAVING RECEIVED THE PROMISES,
If everyone goes on to heaven when they die why does it say they didn't receive the promises? What were the promises they didn't receive?

Also in verse 40 of the same chapter it says "God having provided some better thing for us, THAY THEY WITHOUT US SHOULD NOT BE MADE PERFECT".

Please explain the above to me. It sounds to me that Paul is saying these people are still dead and have not received immortality yet?

CHB

CHB