Liar and murderer

[micah7:9]

Now I can see here in this verse Joh 8:44  Ye, are, of your father—the adversary, and, the covetings of your father, ye choose to be doing. He, was, a murderer, from the beginning, and, in the truth, he stood not; because truth is not in him: Whensoever he speaketh falsehood, of his own, he speaketh; because, false, he is, and, the father of it.
The adversary was a liar from the beginnnig Gen 3:4  And the serpent said unto the woman,—Ye shall not die,
Okay theres the lie, but were is the murder? Unless one looks at that old serpent being the cause of adam to be dying, you shall die, is a murderer or man slayer.
The  only murder or man slayer I see is Gen 4:8 And saying is Cain to Abel, his brother, "Go will we to the field. And coming is it, at their coming to be in the field, rising is Cain against Abel, his brother, and killing him.
Is it saying then that it was the devil, the serpent got into Cain to make Cain murder/slay his brother?
I wonder about this stuff. It shows plainly the lie, but the murder is murky for me. Any thoughts?

[WhiteWings]

Murderer of the truth?
He poisoned their mind so God took away their life.

[Molly]

Suggestion:  Stop reading Young's.  No one else agrees with his translation, and it makes no sense.

Gen 3:4

New International Version (©1984)
"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman.

New Living Translation (©2007)
"You won't die!" the serpent replied to the woman.

English Standard Version (©2001)
But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"You certainly won't die!" the snake told the woman.

King James Bible
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

American King James Version
And the serpent said to the woman, You shall not surely die:

American Standard Version
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Bible in Basic English
And the snake said, Death will not certainly come to you:

Douay-Rheims Bible
And the serpent said to the woman: No, you shall not die the death.

Darby Bible Translation
And the serpent said to the woman, Ye will not certainly die;

English Revised Version
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Webster's Bible Translation
And the serpent said to the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

World English Bible
The serpent said to the woman, "You won't surely die,

Young's Literal Translation
And the serpent saith unto the woman, 'Dying, ye do not die,

[Molly]

  Gen 2:17

New International Version (©1984)
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

New Living Translation (©2007)
except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you eat its fruit, you are sure to die."

English Standard Version (©2001)
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
But you must never eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because when you eat from it, you will certainly die."

King James Bible
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

American King James Version
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die.

American Standard Version
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Bible in Basic English
But of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you may not take; for on the day when you take of it, death will certainly come to you.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. for in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death.

Darby Bible Translation
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest of it thou shalt certainly die.

English Revised Version
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Webster's Bible Translation
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest of it thou shalt surely die.

World English Bible
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it; for in the day that you eat of it you will surely die."

Young's Literal Translation
and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

[WhiteWings]

Suggestion:  Stop reading Young's.  No one else agrees with his translation, and it makes no sense.

What exactly is so wrong about YLT?
It's one of the better translations.
Besides of that all translators seem to agree on this verse.

[Molly]

Suggestion:  Stop reading Young's.  No one else agrees with his translation, and it makes no sense.

What exactly is so wrong about YLT?
It's one of the better translations.
Besides of that all translators seem to agree on this verse.

forH3588 in the dayH3117 that thou eatestH398 thereofH4480 thou shalt surely die.H4191 H4191


H4191
מוּת
mûth
mooth
A primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively to kill: -  X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy (-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro [-mancer], X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in [no] wise.


God says the word 'die' twice.  The literal translation would be, 'you will die die.'

Every other translation but Young's agrees, God is saying the word twice for emphasis.  That's why they all translate it --you will surely die.

What kind of sense does 'dying ye do not die' mean?  That's enough to make even Eve go 'hmm.'

[WhiteWings]

In that case YLT is the best translation because it uses the word die twice. (dying and die)
But again, all 20 transaltions I compared express the same idea. They stress the dying part.

[Molly]

In that case YLT is the best translation because it uses the word die twice. (dying and die)
But again, all 20 transaltions I compared express the same idea. They stress the dying part.

If Young's were translating it literally, it would say, 'you will die die.'

Young's doesn't stress the dying part, he changes the meaning.  His sentence implies God is telling Adam he is already dying before he eats.  That changes the meaning.

Whereas if God is stressing to Adam that he will surely die the day that he eats from the tree--it's a different meaning.

Notice Eve only uses the word die once.

neitherH3808 shall ye touchH5060 it, lestH6435 ye die.H4191

Eve doesn't get how serious the warning from God to Adam was.


PS Did God tell Eve not to even touch the tree?  Because he only told Adam not to eat it.  Eve says, God said  not to eat it or even touch it.  That's like the Israelites being told not to even touch the mountain [much less walk up it like Moses did].

[WhiteWings]

In that case YLT is the best translation because it uses the word die twice. (dying and die)
But again, all 20 transaltions I compared express the same idea. They stress the dying part.

If Young's were translating it literally, it would say, 'you will die die.'

And? That makes the other translations even more wrong.

Young's doesn't stress the dying part, he changes the meaning.  His sentence implies God is telling Adam he is already dying before he eats.  That changes the meaning.

Reread Molly!

for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die

See, the dying is clearly linked to a certain event. Eating. If they not ate from the tree teh dying would not have taken place.

Whereas if God is stressing to Adam that he will surely die the day that he eats from the tree--it's a different meaning.

That exactly what YLT and all other versions are translated.

Notice Eve only uses the word die once.

neitherH3808 shall ye touchH5060 it, lestH6435 ye die.H4191

Eve doesn't get how serious the warning from God to Adam was.


for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die

Do you really expect me to overlook those other translations? :winkgrin:
YLT uses the words dying and die. That's pretty close to die die.
Now you show me a translation that uses die die. There is none in your list.

Notice Eve only uses the word die once.

So do all translations. What's your point?

[Molly]

Now you show me a translation that uses die die. There is none in your list.

Right.  They all say you will surely die, you will certainly die.  They are taking the word said twice to mean that God is emphasizing the word die.  That's why they insert the word 'surely'--that word isn't in the text, but the emphasis is.

Young's changes the meaning.  Ask Micah if he thinks Adam was already dying before he ate from the tree, because that is what Young's and only Young's is implying with his translation.

If Adam is already dying, what's the big deal?  Satan only makes him die faster.

So do all translations. What's your point?

I'm talking about the Hebrew, not the translations.  Eve uses muth once, not twice like God.

By the way, Satan quotes God exactly but inserts the word 'not' lol.

Ye shall notH3808 surely die:H4191 H4191

So there is the lying part.  That little word 'not'.

And, the murdering part is he knew that if he could convince Eve to eat, then Adam would eat, too.  Satan murdered Adam.

[WhiteWings]

Now you show me a translation that uses die die. There is none in your list.

Right.  They all say you will surely die, you will certainly die.  They are taking the word said twice to mean that God is emphasizing the word die.  That's why they insert the word 'surely'--that word isn't in the text, but the emphasis is.
Young's changes the meaning.

I think it's way past bedtime for you Molly. :winkgrin:
They write surely. True. That NOT in the Hebrew. They all render die die in a different way. None of them badly imo. The all retain the essence of the verse.
But on top of that YLT does it a bit more literal.
About changing the meaning.... you don't have the slightest bit of proof for that because it's a totally false claim.

Come on Molly English isn't my first language but even I know do is emphasis....
Without emphasis: Die you die.
With emphasis: Die you do die.
Do in this case is like an exclamation mark.
And even without do it repeats the word die. That a emphasis on itself.
Do is simply a synonym for certainly in this context.
Do means bring to pass.

Ask Micah if he thinks Adam was already dying before he ate from the tree, because that is what Young's and only Young's is implying with his translation.

If Adam is already dying, what's the big deal?  Satan only makes him die faster.

That's interpretation that has nothing to with this verse.
For example what's the need for a Tree of Life when you are imortal anyway?

So do all translations. What's your point?

I'm taking about the Hebrew, not the translations.

In that case why keep talking about YLT?

[WhiteWings]

Do is an Auxiliary verb.
In linguistics, an auxiliary (also called helping verb, helper verb, auxiliary verb, or verbal auxiliary, abbreviated aux) is a verb functioning to give further semantic or syntactic information about the main or full verb following it.
...
EmphasisThe auxiliaries do, does, and did are also used for emphasis in positive declarative statements in which the verb otherwise contains only one word: "I do like this shirt!", "He does like this shirt", "I did like that shirt".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/grammar/learnit/learnitv298.shtml

What is the difference in use between I believe and I do believe
.....
We do not normally use do or does in affirmative sentences, Ali, but we can use them for emotive or contrastive emphasis when we feel strongly about something:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/grammar/learnit/learnitv298.shtml

Do shut up, Georgia, and get on with your homework.
Do write and let me know how you're getting on.
"Can I buy stamps here?" "Well, we do sell them, but we haven't got any at the moment."
He cooks a lot does Alex. He does far more than me.
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/do_3
Etc :happy3:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/grammar/learnit/learnitv298.shtml

[Molly]

I can see I'm not explaining myself well here. :msealed:   :winkgrin:

Young's Literal Translation
and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'


Translation is more art than science.  You are not only translating words from one language to another, you are trying to translate meaning and nuance as well.

The above is a horrible translation.  It is not proper English.  It does not make sense.  You have to guess at what it means.  It is awkward.

If I say to you, 'If I put a bullet in your head, you will surely die,' that's a clear meaning.

If I say, "If I put a bullet in your head, dying you will die,' that is confusing.--it's not clear what it means.  Does it mean you'll die slowly?  Does it mean you were already dying before I put the bullet in your head?  Because it's not good English, then--who knows what it means?

Now when you are dealing with the negative, it gets even worse

"If I put a bullet in your dead, dying you will not die."

That sentence doesn't even make sense.  If you are dying, why won't you die?  Because you know a great surgeon? lol

I don't think even Eve would fall for that.

The other translations do not imply Adam is already dying before he eats from the tree.  It's a simple statement--If you eat that, you will surely die.

[Molly]

About changing the meaning.... you don't have the slightest bit of proof for that because it's a totally false claim.

It's not a false claim.  The people who quote the Young's translation believe that sentence proves Adam was already dying before he ate from the tree.  They quote Young's to prove that--because that is what the Young's translation implies. 

For example what's the need for a Tree of Life when you are imortal anyway

As long as Adam had full and unfettered access to the tree of life, he wasn't dying.  But, that's another discussion.  All the other translations do not address whether Adam was already dying-- at all.  All the other translations are only concerned with what happens if he eats from the tree.  He will die!

[WhiteWings]

About changing the meaning.... you don't have the slightest bit of proof for that because it's a totally false claim.

It's not a false claim.  The people who quote the Young's translation believe that sentence proves Adam was already dying before he ate from the tree..

So what? How many different doctrines are based on the KJV?
YLT isn't without flaws but it comes out on top of the list of the best translations. With ease.

They quote Young's to prove that--because that is what the Young's translation implies,

It doesn't. I think I gave lots of proof for that.
Besides of all that do you really know what the verse means? Or do you just think you know what it means?  Why about this translation.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. for in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death.

See YLT is far above the rest. DRB translates it equally well.
YLT:
- Keeps it literal. That's why it's called a literal translation.
- It does add emphasis. (see the many links I gave)
- And most important it makes far more sense than all others. It brings across the true meaning of the verse.

To use your logic almost all translations write they die instantly "you shall die" (Yeah, I do  :winkgrin: know it doesn't mention a timeframe. Just using your logic)
YLT does a better job because "dying thou dost die"
Or more fluenent/modern Englis from DRB "thou shalt die the death"
Those versions show the process of dying started. And that's correct. The lived for another 900 years.
You said the verse implies they were dying before eating but it's just the other way around. They started dying after eating.

The above is a horrible translation.  It is not proper English.  It does not make sense.  You have to guess at what it means.

In most Bibles you read the doctrinal fantasies of the translators. In literal versions you are closer to the original. You get exactly what you payed for.
Personally KJV, YLT, CLV read equally well for me. Possibly because the structure closer to my own language :dontknow:

BTW there is a difference between translations and versions.

[Molly]

To use your logic almost all translations write they die instantly "you shall die" (Yeah, I do   know it doesn't mention a timeframe. Just using your logic)

But God does give a time frame.

17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
--Gen 2


And, in fact, we see something happen to them immediately [spiritual death].


7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

8And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. --Gen 3

[sheila]

 Hi Micah

re;  the  serpent enteringCain; God warned him, Genesis 4;7  If youdo what is right,will younot be accepted? ButIF  YOU DO NOT DO WHAT IS RIGHT...

  SIN IS CROUCHING AT YOUR DOOR,IT DESIRES TO HAVE YOU...BUT YOU....MUST...MASTER..IT.......[contrast Jesus knocking at door..if you open

  He will come in and sup with you] two spirits...Good[God] Evil[adversary]

    see how sin desires to makeyou it's slave...use you up..kill .....and How it is the desire of God..that we master it....

   the next verseshows that sin did enter andmastered Cain...the following scripture shows this...'you are under a curse...and driven from

  the ground,which opened it'smouth to receive Abel's blood from your hand...Land to no longer yeild it'scrops...hidden from presence of God

    YOU WILL BE A RESTLESS WANDERER ON THE EARTH...the evil generation[scapegoat] that perishes in the wilderness.....

   Cain said,it is too much to bear..being a wanderer and whoever finds me will kill me....But the Lord God said, NOT SO... if anyone  kills Cain..

  he will suffer vengeance seven times over[King Neb mind of beast 7 times].Then the Lord put a mark on Cain,so that no-one who found him would kill him

   enmity between the two seeds...Abel/acceptable to God...Cain/unacceptable to God[did not do right]


   those that have the 'mark' of the beast can not live in the presence of God[because death has entered in]sin mark must be blotted out

  There is another 'mark' in Ezekiel

  for those who mourn over all the detestable things done in the temple...again..good/evil contrast.As this is our present exercize in good/evil...

   and the good and evil is man ifested in our flesh...putting up with much longsuffering vessels of wrath..to make know the riches of His mercy to vessels of mercy

[micah7:9]

In that case YLT is the best translation because it uses the word die twice. (dying and die)
But again, all 20 transaltions I compared express the same idea. They stress the dying part.

You bet! It is the only one that translates it properly. Thank you WW's :grin: :thumbsup:

YLT Gen 2:16  And Jehovah God layeth a charge on the man, saying, `Of every tree of the garden eating thou dost eat;
Gen 2:17  and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'   
Dying the death, you willl die
Now that tells me that when man eats of the fruit of the TG and E, man will begin dying...the death. What is it you can see the dying to self (in NT) but you dont see man begin dying the death for his deed?

Nathan you have brought up some good points.

[Nathan]

Molly, to your question about Eve being instructed about eating of the tree . . . it wasn't directly from God in the same sense as it was with Adam because at the time God said it, she was still a rib.  So . .. she "was" there but yet she wasn't.  And there was no command not to touch . . .this whole event is a spiritual picture of how we operate within ourselves.  Our anointed man (spirit) carries the truth, and our woman takes what's there and turns it into something it's not.  God wasn't trying to instill fear into Adam by declaring he wasn't to touch it, he merely instructed him that life would end at the consumption of the tree's fruit.

Isn't it interesting how we can get all caught up in our discussion over a word or translation, yet does anyone ever question the idea that snakes can talk?  Wouldn't a better response from Eve have been to get a big rock and smash the snake?  Bad attempt at a little levity.

Seriously, did you also notice that not only was the command given to Adam and not to Eve, but when she "did" eat it, nothing happened.  It wasn't until Adam ate it that all hell broke loose.

[micah7:9]

""If I put a bullet in your dead, dying you will not die." But what is the warning that you gave before you shot me?

That sentence doesn't even make sense.  If you are dying, why won't you die?  Because you know a great surgeon? lol" Molly

The "dying" you will not, is the death that the serpent tells the woman she will not die.

" for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'

The "dying" you will die, thats the death that the Lord God said you die from.

[micah7:9]

Any way the "liar from the beginning" is pretty clear I believe. Now how about the "murderer" part, is that as clear for my understanding?

[Molly]

Molly, to your question about Eve being instructed about eating of the tree . . . it wasn't directly from God in the same sense as it was with Adam because at the time God said it, she was still a rib.  So . .. she "was" there but yet she wasn't.  And there was no command not to touch . . .this whole event is a spiritual picture of how we operate within ourselves.  Our anointed man (spirit) carries the truth, and our woman takes what's there and turns it into something it's not.  God wasn't trying to instill fear into Adam by declaring he wasn't to touch it, he merely instructed him that life would end at the consumption of the tree's fruit.

Yeah.  You are talking about spirit [as Adam] versus soul [as Eve], right?  We know God told Adam not to eat it, but we are not privy to where Eve might have gotten the idea that she cannot even touch it.

We never see Eve talking to God until after they both eat from the tree.  And then He is pronouncing the curse of death on both of them. 

It just struck me as curious the parallel to this verse:


12 "Put limits for the people around the mountain. Tell them, 'Be careful that you do not go up the mountain. Do not even touch the foot of it. You can be sure that all who touch the mountain will be put to death. 13 [Ex 19]


So only the priests [purified spirit?] can go up the mountain, and only the high priest [anointed purified spirit?] can meet God face to face.


From  your point of view, would that mean only purified spirit can see God?    Like you said, the soul is afraid of God.

But God himself gives the instructions, so maybe the soul is right in fearing God.

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
[Mat 5:8]

[micah7:9]

"We never see Eve talking to God until after they both eat from the tree.  And then He is pronouncing the curse of death on both of them. "  Molly

Just where and when did this pronouncing  the curse of death read in the Bible?

[Nathan]

The realm we exist in now is the result of that . . .this is a realm of death and decay.  No man born in the flesh lives forever in the flesh.  Death in this realm is eminant.  Just as death is absolute in this realm, "life" is absolute in the spiritual realm. 

Interestingly enough, there's no word in the Hebrew language for "spriit".  It's either "breath" or "breathe".  Both are actions that only the living can experience . . .which for me, means that there's no death in the spriitual realm.  No darkness, no pain, no suffering . . .oh . . .except for hell of course!!! 

I hate religion. . . .

[redhotmagma]

The realm we exist in now is the result of that . . .this is a realm of death and decay.  No man born in the flesh lives forever in the flesh.  Death in this realm is eminant.  Just as death is absolute in this realm, "life" is absolute in the spiritual realm. 

Interestingly enough, there's no word in the Hebrew language for "spriit".  It's either "breath" or "breathe".  Both are actions that only the living can experience . . .which for me, means that there's no death in the spriitual realm.  No darkness, no pain, no suffering . . .oh . . .except for hell of course!!! 

I hate religion. . . .

:thumbsup: