Liar and murderer

[micah7:9]

The realm we exist in now is the result of that . . .this is a realm of death and decay.  No man born in the flesh lives forever in the flesh.  Death in this realm is eminant.  Just as death is absolute in this realm, "life" is absolute in the spiritual realm. 

Interestingly enough, there's no word in the Hebrew language for "spriit".  It's either "breath" or "breathe".  Both are actions that only the living can experience . . .which for me, means that there's no death in the spriitual realm.  No darkness, no pain, no suffering . . .oh . . .except for hell of course!!! 

I hate religion. . . .

Yep. ......Now "We never see Eve talking to God until after they both eat from the tree.  And then He is pronouncing the curse of death on both of them. "  Molly

Just where and when did this pronouncing  the curse of death read in the Bible?

[Molly]

"We never see Eve talking to God until after they both eat from the tree.  And then He is pronouncing the curse of death on both of them. "  Molly

Just where and when did this pronouncing  the curse of death read in the Bible?

17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

--Gen 3


3The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.

4The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.

5The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

6Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

7The new wine mourneth, the vine languisheth, all the merryhearted do sigh.

--Isa 24


Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:



2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

--Rev 22

[micah7:9]

That aint no answer to the question I asked that you stated. I know what it reads on Gen. 3 and there is no

"We never see Eve talking to God until after they both eat from the tree.  And then He is pronouncing the curse of death on both of them. "  Molly

17 And unto Adam he said,  cursed is the ground for thy sake

I just wanted to know where it says He is pronouncing "the curse of death."

[Molly]

That aint no answer to the question I asked that you stated. I know what it reads on Gen. 3 and there is no

"We never see Eve talking to God until after they both eat from the tree.  And then He is pronouncing the curse of death on both of them. "  Molly

17 And unto Adam he said,  cursed is the ground for thy sake

I just wanted to know where it says He is pronouncing "the curse of death."

That's a run on sentence, Micah.  There is no period until the end of verse 19.  All three verses are the curse on Adam, ending with dust thou art and to dust thou shalt return.  It's the curse of death which Christ reverses.

[Nathan]

Um . . .Molly, I'm not so sure that "that's" what God was doing.  I don't think he was handing down curses at all.  The only place where it says God cursed" was the serpent . . .but not so much with Adam and Eve.  What "I" see it to be saying is . . ."Okay guys, because you chose "this" tree to eat from here are the new rules that you need to know and realize.  Adam, your identity is going to be connected with labor for your sustenance.  (sweat of your face)  You're not going to be able to just live off of the fruit of other trees.  This realm is much different.  Everything is going to require labor.

Eve, down here, in order for you to birth life, you're going to literally go through hell.  Reproduction is going to require severe pain. . . ."  On and on . . .


Before you argue with that, just think about "this".  To say that God is cursing them for what they did would then be saying that God "created" not only the gap, but he also forced the opportunity for Jesus to now have to come and die.  Jesus came and reversed the curse . . . God brought the curse . . .Jesus reversed the curse . . .kinda sounds like a divided house there doesn't it?

We know God didn't "bring" the curse upon Adam, but that Adam brought the curse upon himself.  But out of LOVE, God took the time to explain some things to them before they went out on their own.  Instead of seeing these things as curses, I see them as the Love of the Father extending his wisdom to his kids now they they've fallen.

It'd be like a Father explaining to his child after they fell and broke their leg, how life for them is going to be now . . .they're going to need crutches, it's going to hurt, they're going to need to walk on the leg even though it's gonna hurt.  They can't run anymore, they can't play like they used to . . . it's the same principle.  The Dad isn't cursing them, he's just passing wisdom on to them of how life is going to be now.

[micah7:9]

I like some of what you say, but there was another curse. Gen 3:17  And to the man He said, `Because thou hast hearkened to the voice of thy wife, and dost eat of the tree concerning which I have charged thee, saying, Thou dost not eat of it, cursed is  the ground on thine account; in sorrow thou dost eat of it all days of thy life,

Also, why do you say..."to his kids now they they've fallen." ??
I see no fall. I have heard teachings that say man fell from grace, that would be impossible for grace is not mentioned until
Gen 6:8  And Noah found grace in the eyes of Jehovah.

"Instead of seeing these things as curses,..." Nathan  you are correct in a way, only isnt it just an explanation of how "life" will be from now on "until?"

[Nathan]

I say they've fallen because I believe that's what they did . . . they were "driven" out of the garden which for me is out of the spirit realm, out of the heavenly arena where God originally "put" Adam after he created him . . .the natural realm is lower than the spiritual realm.  They didn't "choose" to be bound by the lower realm, they "fell".  They disobeyed God's word and his original order.  Their choices caused them to be lowered to this realm . . .is that better? 

And you're absolutely right about the other curse . . .the serpent and the ground . . yup.  It's like the moment Adam ate of the fruit, not only did he have to leave the domain of the spirit, but he also popped the bubble and defiled the serenity of the natural as well.  We really don't know what this earth was like originally because all we've been about to observe is the curse that still remains.

And the "until" is when ALL THINGS are completed according to the ORIGINAL plan of the Father . .there was no plan "B".  This realm is bound by time.  When time comes to completion, the curse will be removed completely.  Jesus enabled us to over-ride the curse by walking in the spirit . . .but that can only happen through personal relationship, whcih can only manifest through individual invitation . . .which comes to us ONLY by grace.

[Molly]

He does use the word 'curse' Nathan when speaking to Adam.

Because you have done this:

Cursed
1) is the ground for your sake
2) you will eat from it in sorrow
3) you will grow thorns and thistles
4) you will eat herbs
5) you will sweat to produce something to eat [priests in the temple are not allowed to sweat]
6) you will return to the dust of the earth


Period, end of sentence.

All of those results come from the curse, and all of those results are death caused by separation from God.

Jesus reversed the curse.

No more curse
1) for those who live in the Spirit
2)for those won't live by bread alone, God will give us whatever we ask for
3)for the desert will bloom into a beautiful garden for them
4)for those will eat meat
5)for those will enter into God's rest [the promised land]
6)we will never die and live forever

[WhiteWings]

Isn't it interesting how we can get all caught up in our discussion over a word or translation,

False understanding leads to false doctrine.
That's exactly what this verse is (also) about:
^ACVMatthew 5
29 And if thy right eye causes thee to stumble, remove it and cast it from thee, for it is advantageous for thee that one of thy body-parts should perish, and not thy whole body be cast into hell.

yet does anyone ever question the idea that snakes can talk?  Wouldn't a better response from Eve have been to get a big rock and smash the snake?  Bad attempt at a little levity.

Two possible answers.
a] It was common to talk to animals
b1] It wasn't a snake at all.  It was a man.
b2] An enchanter.

[Molly]

b1] It wasn't a snake at all.  It was a man.
b2] An enchanter.

3)It was a serpentine being of light, the nachash, a divine celestial spirit, also known as Satan, who watched God create Adam and wanted to murder Adam from the beginning.

 

[Nathan]

He does use the word 'curse' Nathan when speaking to Adam.

Because you have done this:

Cursed
1) is the ground for your sake
2) you will eat from it in sorrow
3) you will grow thorns and thistles
4) you will eat herbs
5) you will sweat to produce something to eat [priests in the temple are not allowed to sweat]
6) you will return to the dust of the earth


Period, end of sentence.

All of those results come from the curse, and all of those results are death caused by separation from God.

Jesus reversed the curse.

No more curse
1) for those who live in the Spirit
2)for those who don't live by bread alone, God will give us whatever we ask for
3)for the desert will bloom into a beautiful garden
4)for those who eat meat
5)for those who enter into God's rest [the promised land]
6)we will never die and live forever

The curse was "because" of Adam, Adam felt it's affects, but God didn't directly curse Adam . . . that would be the same as saying God created man and then sent him to hell.  I think that's also what Micah was trying to point out.  There definitely was a curse, but it wasn't God cursing his image in Adam . . .Adam brought the curse upon the earth and the serpent that ruled it . . .but even more importantly was your conclusion . .the curse has been reversed.

[micah7:9]

Nathan post #31
I say they've fallen because I believe that's what they did
To have fallen as you say they would have had to be out side of the Lord God's plan, and they were not.

. . . they were "driven" out of the garden which for me is out of the spirit realm,
Man was never in the "spirit"  1Co 15:45  so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit,
1Co 15:46  but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual.

out of the heavenly arena where God originally "put" Adam after he created him . . .the natural realm is lower than the spiritual realm.  They didn't "choose" to be bound by the lower realm, they "fell".  They disobeyed God's word and his original order.
In that case God screwed up. He made a malfunctioned creation. Either God had the foreknowledge of mans disobedience or He didnt, I reason that the Lord God caused the circumstances for man to make his choice.

Their choices caused them to be lowered to this realm . . .is that better?
No.

And you're absolutely right about the other curse . . .the serpent and the ground . . yup.  It's like the moment Adam ate of the fruit, not only did he have to leave the domain of the spirit, but he also popped the bubble and defiled the serenity of the natural as well.  We really don't know what this earth was like originally because all we've been about to observe is the curse that still remains.
The record we have in Genesis IS what this earth was like originally.

And the "until" is when ALL THINGS are completed according to the ORIGINAL plan of the Father . .there was no plan "B".
Now you have that right as rain, there was not plan B, cause everything was going just the way He had intended it to go.

This realm is bound by time.  When time comes to completion,
Now where did you get the notion that "time comes to a completion?"

the curse will be removed completely.  Jesus enabled us to over-ride the curse by walking in the spirit
Jesus giving His life on the Cross is what did away with the curse. Rom 6:23  for the wages of the sin is death, and the gift of God is life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.
And Jesus payed that ransom, He died.

. . .but that can only happen through personal relationship, whcih can only manifest through individual invitation . . .which comes to us ONLY by grace.
Yes, and His grace is working now. Thank you Father!

Im getting real close to that other taboo :sigh:

[Molly]

He does use the word 'curse' Nathan when speaking to Adam.

Because you have done this:

Cursed
1) is the ground for your sake
2) you will eat from it in sorrow
3) you will grow thorns and thistles
4) you will eat herbs
5) you will sweat to produce something to eat [priests in the temple are not allowed to sweat]
6) you will return to the dust of the earth


Period, end of sentence.

All of those results come from the curse, and all of those results are death caused by separation from God.

Jesus reversed the curse.

No more curse
1) for those who live in the Spirit
2)for those who don't live by bread alone, God will give us whatever we ask for
3)for the desert will bloom into a beautiful garden
4)for those who eat meat
5)for those who enter into God's rest [the promised land]
6)we will never die and live forever

The curse was "because" of Adam, Adam felt it's affects, but God didn't directly curse Adam . . . that would be the same as saying God created man and then sent him to hell.  I think that's also what Micah was trying to point out.  There definitely was a curse, but it wasn't God cursing his image in Adam . . .Adam brought the curse upon the earth and the serpent that ruled it . . .but even more importantly was your conclusion . .the curse has been reversed.

Ok.  I understand.  But don't you think the flesh, and having to live in and overcome flesh,  is part of the curse?

[Nathan]

I think because they ate of the tree, they allowed carnality "in" them . . .that's what the tree "was".  Knowledge of good and evil is the essence of carnality.  They became a part of what they ate.  They weren't created for, or prepared to have to be conformed to it so that's what the "instructional/cursing" part that we're discussing was all about.  They "were" clothed in infinity.  But that part of then died . . .just as God said it would . . .and so they were driven out of infinity and became a part of carnality.  That's where God clothing them in skins comes in.  Our flesh is directly linked to carnality.  I mean literally linked.  Our emotions are influenced by the gravitational pull of the moon just as the ocean is influenced by it.  We go through high tide experiences and low tide experiences . . .highs and lows . . .some get so influenced by that, that the highs are unhealthy as are the lows.

People are always looking for ways to reach their highs and lows by direct interventions . .. be it drugs, other partners, driving fast, jumping from planes . ..canoeing . . .on and on, we're always looking for ways to stimulate our selves in this realm.  That comes from our natural persons looking for natural means to find fulfillment.  But no matter how hard we try in this realm, we can't ever find that "one thing" that would match what we originally had in the beginning . . .so yeah, it's all the effects of the curse. 

We've been given a covering that is directly linked to the very thing that deceived Eve. . .flesh is influenced by flesh . . .it's even what keeps us from free-falling in spiritual truths.  There's an innate part of us that wants to retain some level of control . . .it's just as God said it would be, our Eve desires after the authority of our Adam.  But our Adam is established with the authority to rule over our Eve.  We'll ALWAYS have the power in us to over come flesh, but not by fleshly means.  I can't make myself overcome anything by will-power alone.  There first must be a spiritual awakening within me to release that authority and to bind that carnality that fills me full of lies that keeps me living, but not "alive".

[Molly]

That was good, Nathan.

What do you mean by this?

it's even what keeps us from free-falling in spiritual truths.

by 'free-falling' [into spiritual truths]?

[Nathan]

Nathan post #31
I say they've fallen because I believe that's what they did
To have fallen as you say they would have had to be out side of the Lord God's plan, and they were not.


You're still not hearing me.  I never said they fell from grace . . . it was BECAUSE of grace that we see the conversation God had after the effects of the tree was manifesting in them.

. . . they were "driven" out of the garden which for me is out of the spirit realm,
Man was never in the "spirit"  1Co 15:45  so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit,

sigh . . .
Look up the word "cool" and see what it means . . .God walked with Adam in it.

1Co 15:46  but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual.

out of the heavenly arena where God originally "put" Adam after he created him . . .the natural realm is lower than the spiritual realm.  They didn't "choose" to be bound by the lower realm, they "fell".  They disobeyed God's word and his original order.

In that case God screwed up. He made a malfunctioned creation. Either God had the foreknowledge of mans disobedience or He didnt, I reason that the Lord God caused the circumstances for man to make his choice.


Whatever . . .

Their choices caused them to be lowered to this realm . . .is that better?
No.

Again . . . "whatever".  It's beginning to appear that you just want to argue for argument's sake.

And you're absolutely right about the other curse . . .the serpent and the ground . . yup.  It's like the moment Adam ate of the fruit, not only did he have to leave the domain of the spirit, but he also popped the bubble and defiled the serenity of the natural as well.  We really don't know what this earth was like originally because all we've been about to observe is the curse that still remains.
The record we have in Genesis IS what this earth was like originally.


And how is that?  As we see it now?  How was it "before" it was cursed?  What record is there in Genesis that explains what the ground was like before ADAM FELL.?  Don't just tell me you disagree . . .any Monday-morning quarterback can do that. 


And the "until" is when ALL THINGS are completed according to the ORIGINAL plan of the Father . .there was no plan "B".
Now you have that right as rain, there was not plan B, cause everything was going just the way He had intended it to go.

This realm is bound by time.  When time comes to completion,
Now where did you get the notion that "time comes to a completion?"

Because this realm as we know it has an end????  Heaven and earth shall pass away . . .

the curse will be removed completely.  Jesus enabled us to over-ride the curse by walking in the spirit
Jesus giving His life on the Cross is what did away with the curse. Rom 6:23  for the wages of the sin is death, and the gift of God is life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.
And Jesus payed that ransom, He died.


I have no idea what your argument is on that.

. . .but that can only happen through personal relationship, whcih can only manifest through individual invitation . . .which comes to us ONLY by grace.
Yes, and His grace is working now. Thank you Father!

Im getting real close to that other taboo :sigh:

[micah7:9]

I say they've fallen because I believe that's what they did
To have fallen as you say they would have had to be out side of the Lord God's plan, and they were not.


You're still not hearing me.  I never said they fell from grace . . . it was BECAUSE of grace that we see the conversation God had after the effects of the tree was manifesting in them.

Did I say anything about grace???

sigh . . .
Look up the word "cool" and see what it means . . .God walked with Adam in it.
Cool:H7307 rûach wind;  That does not mean that man was a spirit in Genesis 3:8

(ASV)  And they heard the voice of Jehovah God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of Jehovah God amongst the trees of the garden.

(CLV) And hearing are they the sound of Yahweh Elohim walking in the garden in the windy part of the day. And hiding themselves are the human and his wife from the face of Yahweh Elohim, in the midst of a tree of the garden."
(KJV)  And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

(Rotherham)  Then heard they the sound of Yahweh God, walking to and fro in the garden at the breeze of the day,—so he hid himself—the man with his wife, from the face of Yahweh God, amid the trees of the garden.

(YLT)  And they hear the sound of Jehovah God walking up and down in the garden at the breeze of the day, and the man and his wife hide themselves from the face of Jehovah God in the midst of the trees of the garden.

Whatever . . .???????????????

Again . . . "whatever".  It's beginning to appear that you just want to argue for argument's sake
No sir. What you say is not what the Bible is teaching.
And how is that?  As we see it now?  How was it "before" it was cursed?  What record is there in Genesis that explains what the ground was like before ADAM FELL.?  Don't just tell me you disagree . . .any Monday-morning quarterback can do that.
Here you go
Gen 2:8  And Jehovah God planteth a garden in Eden, at the east, and He setteth there the man whom He hath formed;
Gen 2:9  and Jehovah God causeth to sprout from the ground every tree desirable for appearance, and good for food, and the tree of life in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Gen 2:10  And a river is going out from Eden to water the garden, and from thence it is parted, and hath become four chief rivers ;
Gen 2:11  the name of the one is Pison, it is that which is surrounding the whole land of the Havilah where the gold is ,
Gen 2:12  and the gold of that land is good, there is the bdolach and the shoham stone;
Gen 2:13  and the name of the second river is Gibon, it is that which is surrounding the whole land of Cush;
Gen 2:14  and the name of the third river is Hiddekel, it is that which is going east of Asshur; and the fourth river is Phrat.
Gen 2:15  And Jehovah God taketh the man, and causeth him to rest in the garden of Eden, to serve it, and to keep it.

Gen 2:16  And Jehovah God layeth a charge on the man, saying, `Of every tree of the garden eating thou dost eat;
Gen 2:17  and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'

Gen 2:18  And Jehovah God saith, `Not good for the man to be alone, I do make to him an helper--as his counterpart.'
Gen 2:19  And Jehovah God formeth from the ground every beast of the field, and every fowl of the heavens, and bringeth in unto the man, to see what he doth call it; and whatever the man calleth a living creature, that is its name.
Gen 2:20  And the man calleth names to all the cattle, and to fowl of the heavens, and to every beast of the field; and to man hath not been found an helper--as his counterpart.

Because this realm as we know it has an end????  Heaven and earth shall pass away . . .

Yes that is true but you said "This realm is bound by time.  When time comes to completion,"
Are you not saying time ends?
Psa 102:27  But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.
Isa 9:7  To the increase of the princely power, And of peace, there is no end, On the throne of David, and on his kingdom, To establish it, and to support it, In judgment and in righteousness, Henceforth, even unto the age, The zeal of Jehovah of Hosts doth this.

I have no idea what your argument is on that.

Whatever?

[Molly]

"in the cool" [of the day]
H7307
רוּח
rûach
roo'-akh
From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions): - air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).

[micah7:9]

Gen 3:8  And they heard the voice of the Self-Existent Gods walking in the garden in the spirit of the day:

Is that what I'm supposed to read? And if so, just how does that put man in a different realm as they hide from the face[presence] of Self-Existent Gods?

Presence: H6440 pânı̂ym  the face (as the part that turns)פ

[WhiteWings]

I think because they ate of the tree, they allowed carnality "in" them . . .that's what the tree "was".  Knowledge of good and evil is the essence of carnality.

Not sure I agree. God surely knows aout good and evil. Is God carnal?

Eve ate from the tree. Although Eve knew about the warning nothing happenend. She sinned but nothing happend
When Adam ate they knew they were naked.
Could it be that Adam was the cover for Eve?
Jesus was the cover for Adam. When adam ate that eve's cover was taken away. So was his. They became naked.
A few verses later God gave them a cover again in the form of animal skin.
Animal skins are sacrifices. Blood (=sacrifice) covers sins.
The need for covering with blood lasted 'till ~31AD

So, right now, my thought is that either:
a] They already were carnal but that was covered.
b] They were not carnal but the cover acted as a perfect shield. When the shield was taken away carnality started to "leak in" more and more. That was was the spiritual side of the process of dying.

But, for me, it's important to know Adam and Eve were immortal befor they ate. (conditional immortality)
1] If they would never have sinned would they become infinitely old?
2] If they stopped eating from the tree of life would they die?

I think crucifixion was the Tree of Life. So I wonder if we are speaking about a real tree in the Garden. Perhaps "the fruit" was a certain teaching?


I think carnal has little to do with sin. Or at leat not in every case it's mentioned.
Why? Because the opposite of carnal is spiritual.
Satan and the demons are spiritual too. And they ain't the good guys....

[micah7:9]

WW I have brought this up before, "A few verses later God gave them a cover again in the form of animal skin.
Animal skins are sacrifices. Blood (=sacrifice) covers sins." WW
It does not say there was any letting of blood or any sacrifices.

Genesis 3:21

(ASV)  And Jehovah God made for Adam and for his wife coats of skins, and clothed them.

(CLV) And making is Yahweh Elohim for Adam and for his wife tunics of skin, and is clothing them.

(KJV)  Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

(Rotherham)  And Yahweh God made for the man—and for his wife—tunics of skin and clothed them.

(YLT)  And Jehovah God doth make to the man and to his wife coats of skin, and doth clothe them.

Spiritual:G4152  pneumatikos  From G4151; non-carnal
Spirit: G4151 pneuma  a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; from G4154
G4154 pneō  A primary word; to breathe hard, that is, breeze: - blow.

" Because the opposite of carnal is spiritual.
Satan and the demons are spiritual too. And they ain't the good guys..." WW

Satan and his demons may be spirits, BUT they are not "spiritual." You even state it, " Because the opposite of carnal is spiritual."

:grin:

[Molly]

1] If they would never have sinned would they become infinitely old?

They would not have aged [the same, yesterday, today, and tomorrow].  Aging is part of the death process.
They would not have had children [you will be like the angels in heaven].

2] If they stopped eating from the tree of life would they die?

The tree of life is still present in the New Jerusalem, along with rivers of living water proceeding from the throne of God.  Our immortality depends on Christ.  It is not independent of him.  So yes, I think they would, and I think we would, also.

Perhaps "the fruit" was a certain teaching?

Or a certain spirit?  Look what spirit tempts them--the spirit of death.

[Molly]

So, right now, my thought is that either:
a] They already were carnal but that was covered.
b] They were not carnal but the cover acted as a perfect shield. When the shield was taken away carnality started to "leak in" more and more. That was was the spiritual side of the process of dying.

Or they were not covered at all, just innocent.  Adam has the indwelling Holy Spirit [breath of God] which keeps him from being deceived, but he is powerless [without the covering of power] to prevent Eve from sinning by dispatching Satan the way Jesus did.  He is like a lamb to the slaughter in Satan's hands.

[WhiteWings]

Isn't it interesting how we can get all caught up in our discussion over a word or translation, yet does anyone ever question the idea that snakes can talk?

I answered that partly in a previous post but there is so much more people should ask themselfs.

a] Why was Adam created outside the garden an the put in it?
b] Where did the wife of Cain come from?
c] Why did Cain need protection (mark on his head) when he was sent away/into the world?
d] The snake could be the first 'type' being defined. Animal like sheep, goat and eagle mean more than just being an animal. Just like the meanining of numbers. Jesus called people vipers. That was not about their form but their mind. Same for the garden snake  :winkgrin:
e] God warned Adam about death. So the concept must have been known.
f] Serpents never ate dust. Yaeh I know the link between man and dust... It's just another hint it's not very literal what happened in Eden.
g] ....

Seriously, did you also notice that not only was the command given to Adam and not to Eve, but when she "did" eat it, nothing happened.  It wasn't until Adam ate it that all hell broke loose.

Who are Adam and Eve right now?

[WhiteWings]

WW I have brought this up before, "A few verses later God gave them a cover again in the form of animal skin.
Animal skins are sacrifices. Blood (=sacrifice) covers sins." WW
It does not say there was any letting of blood or any sacrifices.

That's true Micah.
But the Bible gives a few hints.
Sins can ONLY be covered by blood. They sinned. Blood=cover
To get a skin an animal must die. Ok I admit you can also take a skin of an animal that died of old age.
When Adam and Eve left the garden they just lived near it's gate. Remeber they (Abel) did farming.
The dwelt east of the garden. Dwelt means hang around. Not travel a 1000 miles.
Another word for dweling is Tabernacle.
Cain and Abel brought offering to God.
All that combined tells me that made sacrifices at the gate of the Garden. In the Temple sacrifices also where made at the gate.
For me all that combined at least gives a strong hint those skins where from sacrifices.