Who is Michael anyway?

[Molly]

Jesus never refers to himself as an angel or as 'the chief messenger' or as an archangel.

I am not stumbling over anything.  Hope it stays that way.

He did not have to refer Himself, if He was not the chief messenger on earth, then who was? Please?

He is Jesus, Son of God.  Even the demons know who he is.

When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell down before him and said with a loud voice, "What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, do not torment me."
--Luke 8:28


PS Michael is not a messenger angel, he is a warring angel.  Nowhere do we see him bringing a message.  He is always fighting.

[Beloved Servant]

Michael is not a messenger angel, he is a warring angel.  Nowhere do we see him bringing a message.  He is always fighting.

Perhaps this has been overlooked, but, Molly,

the definition of the word angel is:

messenger.

[micah7:9]

Jesus never refers to himself as an angel or as 'the chief messenger' or as an archangel.

I am not stumbling over anything.  Hope it stays that way.

He did not have to refer Himself, if He was not the chief messenger on earth, then who was? Please?

He is Jesus, Son of God.  Even the demons know who he is.

When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell down before him and said with a loud voice, "What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, do not torment me."
--Luke 8:28


PS Michael is not a messenger angel, he is a warring angel.  Nowhere do we see him bringing a message.  He is always fighting.

See post #73

[Molly]

Michael is not a messenger angel, he is a warring angel.  Nowhere do we see him bringing a message.  He is always fighting.

Perhaps this has been overlooked, but, Molly,

the definition of the word angel is:

messenger.

Only one of the definitions of the word 'angel' is messenger.  Another definition of the word 'angel' is angel.  There is such a thing as supernatural angels.


In Daniel 10:13 the angel Gabriel is telling Daniel why he is late in getting to him.  He describes a supernatural dispute where the [spirit] prince of Persia is withstanding him and the archangel Michael comes to help him.  Please notice that the country of Persia [as does every country] has a supernatural being over it called 'a prince.'  The dispute that Gabriel is describing to Daniel is happening in the heavenlies.   This type of dispute in the heavenlies is what Paul is describing in Ephesians, as he presses us into battle as part of the host of heaven, telling us to vibrate against the evil beings in the heavenlies.

Only young's literal translation [weakly] supports your view in any way, and only then, by implying that Michael, prince of Israel, was the first to be appointed to this position.


New International Version (©1984)
But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.

New Living Translation (©2007)
But for twenty-one days the spirit prince of the kingdom of Persia blocked my way. Then Michael, one of the archangels, came to help me, and I left him there with the spirit prince of the kingdom of Persia.

English Standard Version (©2001)
The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia,

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
The commander of the Persian kingdom opposed me for 21 days. But then Michael, one of the chief commanders, came to help me because I was left alone with the kings of Persia.

King James Bible
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

American King James Version
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, see, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

American Standard Version
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me: and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Bible in Basic English
But the angel of the kingdom of Persia put himself against me for twenty-one days; but Michael, one of the chief angels, came to my help; and when I came he was still there with the angel of the kings of Persia.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But the prince of the kingdom of the Persians resisted me one and twenty days: and behold Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, and I remained there by the king of the Persians.

Darby Bible Translation
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

English Revised Version
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me: and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Webster's Bible Translation
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

World English Bible
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; but, behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me: and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Young's Literal Translation
'And the head of the kingdom of Persia is standing over-against me twenty and one days, and lo, Michael, first of the chief heads, hath come in to help me, and I have remained there near the kings of Persia;

[Molly]

All translations seem to agree that there are several leaders. But not who is the leader of them is far less clear. (Besides Father and Son of course)

The leader of them is described here, and he is called very clearly the Prince of princes.

Is that Michael?  Or Jesus?


24And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

--Daniel 8



BTW, would you say we are being destroyed right now by peace?

[Molly]

'Prince of princes' in Daniel 8 is translated from Sar sar.

'Captain' [of the LORD's host] in Joshua 5 is also translated from sar.  So that could be translated 'Prince of the LORD's host.'

Joshua meets the Prince of the LORD's hosts,  and bows down and worships him.  We do not worship angels.   The fact that Joshua worships him tells us who he is, and it's not an angel.


13And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?

14And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?

15And the captain of the LORD's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

--Joshua 5

[WhiteWings]

Peace might be the best translation here.

שׁלוה
shalvâh
BDB Definition:
1) quietness, ease, prosperity
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from H7951
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2392d

Derivatives
2392a שָׁלוּ (shālû) prosperity.
2392b שְׁלִי (shĕlı̂) quiet, private.
2392c שָׁלֵו (shālēw) quiet, prosperous.
2392d שַׁלְוָה (shalwâ) quietness, prosperity.

The whole verse is about satan, excpet "the prince of princes"

When I read several translation I get the impression that "destroyed by peace" is more like quitetly detroying people. For example with false teachings. False peace. Silent assassin. That kind of meaning.
Prince of princes is Jesus. It's the revealtion part were satans armies attack the saints.

25 And the yoke of his chain shall prosper: there is craft in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by craft shall destroy many, and he shall stand up for the destruction of many, and shall crush them as eggs in his hand.
25 and, by his cunning, will he both cause deceit to succeed in his hand, and, in his own heart, will he shew himself to be great, and, by their careless security, will he destroy many,––and, against the ruler of rulers, will he stand up, but, without hand, shall be broken in pieces.
25 And through his policy @ also he shall cause craft @ to prosper @ in his hand @; and he shall magnify @ himself in his heart @, and by peace @ shall destroy @ many @: he shall also stand up @ against the Prince @ of princes @; but he shall be broken @ without @ hand @.
25 `And by his understanding he hath also caused deceit to prosper in his hand, and in his heart he exerteth himself, and by ease he destroyeth many; and against the prince of princes he standeth--and without hand he is broken.
25 And through his policy he shall cause deceit to prosper in his hand, and he shall magnify himself in his heart. And he shall destroy many in [their] security. He shall also stand up against the Prince of princes, but he shall be br
25 And through his policy he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and in their security shall he destroy many: he shall also stand up against the prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
25 And his designs will be turned against the holy people, causing deceit to do well in his hand; in his heart he will make himself great, and send destruction on numbers who are living unconscious of their danger; and he will put himself up against the prince of princes; but he will be broken, though not by men's hands.
25 And through his policy also he will cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he will magnify himself in his heart, and by peace will destroy many: he will also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he will be broken without hand.
25 And the yoke of his chain shall prosper: there is underhanded treachery in his hand, and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by deceit he shall destroy many, and shall stand up for the destruction of many, and shall crush them like eggs in his hand.
25 according to his will, and treachery will be guided by his hand. And his heart will be inflated, and by the abundance of everything he will kill many, and he will rise up against the Lord of lords, and he will be knocked down without a hand.
25 And through his cunning shall he cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he will magnify himself in his heart, and by prosperity will corrupt many; and he will stand up against the Prince of princes: but he shall be broken without hand.
25 According to his will, and craft shall be successful in his hand: and his heart shall be puffed up, and in the abundance of all things he shall kill many: and he shall rise up against the prince of princes, and shall be broken without hand.
25 and through his comprehension deceit also prospers in his hand; and he greatens in his heart and by serenity ruins many: he also stands against the Governor of governors; and is broken by a final hand.
25 And through his policy comprehension also he shall cause craft deceit to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify greaten himself in his heart, and by peace serenity shall destroy ruin many: he shall also stand up against the Prince Governor of princes governors ; but he shall be broken without by a final hand.
25 And through his policy he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and in their security shall he destroy many: he shall also stand up against the prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
25 Through his policy he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and in [their] security shall he destroy many: he shall also stand up against the prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
25 And through his cunning he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and in time of security shall he destroy many; he shall also stand up against the prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many; he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
25 And with his understanding he shall cause the deceit in his hand to prosper, and he shall magnify [himself] in his heart, and by peace he shall destroy many; he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes, and without hand he shall be broken.
25 And through his intelligence, and because he prospereth, is craftiness in his hand; and in his heart will he magnify himself, and in peace will he destroy many: he will also stand up against the Prince of princes; but without a human hand will he be broken.
25 By his treachery he will succeed through deceit. He will have an arrogant attitude, and he will destroy many who are unaware of his schemes. He will rise up against the Prince of princes, yet he will be broken apart – but not by human agency.
25 Through his cunning he shall cause deceit to prosper by his influence, and he shall be great in his own mind, and without warning he shall destroy many. He shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be shattered, but not by human hands.
25 Through his cunning he shall cause deceit to prosper by his influence, and he shall be great in his own mind, and without warning he shall destroy many. He shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be shattered, but not by human hands.
25 And through his cunning will he cause fraud to prosper in his hand, and he will magnify himself in his heart, and he will destroy many in the midst of security, and against the Prince of princes will he stand up; but he shall be broken without hand.
25 »Through his policy he will cause deceit to prosper in his hand. He will boast about himself in his heart. In their security they will destroy many. He will even stand up against the prince of princes; but he will be destroyed without human power.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause deceit to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
25 And by his intelligence and he caused deceit to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify in his heart, and in security he shall destroy many: and against the Chief of chiefs he shall stand; and without hand shall he be broken.
25 Through his policy he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and in their security shall he destroy many: he shall also stand up against the prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

[Molly]

The whole verse is about satan, excpet "the prince of princes"

When I read several translation I get the impression that "destroyed by peace" is more like quitetly detroying people. For example with false teachings. False peace. Silent assassin. That kind of meaning.
Prince of princes is Jesus. It's the revealtion part were satans armies attack the saints.

Yes, the Prince of princes is Jesus.  Agree. 

This is one of the passages where end time Christians point to a final AntiChrist, a man with the indwelling spirit of Satan.  He destroys with peace.  What a concept!  This makes him a fake [negative] image of the Prince of peace.

It's the revealtion part were satans armies attack the saints

This one?


17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. [Rev 12]


Broken without hand--the Saints will overcome him with the blood of the Lamb.  After this, we see the picture of Jesus leading the army of saints in heaven.


11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

--Rev 19

[WhiteWings]

"Michael, one of the chief princes"

ONE
???
'echa^d
BDB Definition:
1) one (number)
1a) one (number)
1b) each, every
1c) a certain
1d) an (indefinite article)
1e) only, once, once for all
1f) one...another, the one...the other, one after another, one by one
1g) first
1h) eleven (in combination), eleventh (ordinal)

CHIEF
  ??????
ri'sho^n
BDB Definition:
1) first, primary, former (adjective)
1a) former (of time)
1a1) ancestors
1a2) former things
1b) foremost (of location)
1c) first (in time)
1d) first, chief (in degree)
2) first, before, formerly, at first (adverb)

PRINCE
???
s´ar
BDB Definition:
1) prince, ruler, leader, chief, chieftain, official, captain
1a) chieftain, leader
1b) vassal, noble, official (under king)
1c) captain, general, commander (military)
1d) chief, head, overseer (of other official classes)
1e) heads, princes (of religious office)
1f) elders (of representative leaders of people)
1g) merchant-princes (of rank and dignity)
1h) patron-angel
1i) Ruler of rulers (of God)
1j) warden


Let's take the primary meaning of each Hebrew word.

ONE of the FIRST PRINCES

If we compare this with say the US army a proper translation would be:  ONE of the GENERALS
Very stricktly speaking ONE in this verse is an amount, number of units, etc
Not a rank.

I'm aware another defenition of ONE is first which would mean highest in rank. Using US military terms there would be 4-star and 5-star generals/Archangels.
Another interpretation is that Michael is no Archangel at all. He something different with a higher rank and different title. But that interpretation is proven wrong by Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel

My (preliminary) conclusion: There are at least 2 archangels and Micheal is 1 of them.

I would go one step further and say there are 7.
^ACVRevelation 8
2 And I saw the seven agents who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.

[Molly]

Enoch says there are 7 archangels.  He names them.

Our Bible says Gabriel is one of the 7 who stand before the throne of God.

Luke 1:19
And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

[micah7:9]

"Only one of the definitions of the word 'angel' is messenger. Another definition of the word 'angel' is angel.  There is such a thing as supernatural angels.

Ok, then what does the word 'angel' is angel mean?   Where and what are "supernatural angels?"

Dont misunderstand me I believe that there are heavenly messengers that are sent to direct, aide, and do other things that help the saints do the Lords work here on earth.

[micah7:9]

Exactly, ww.  He's one of many.

You have made a very sound point WW. I thank for the labor. :bigGrin:

[Molly]

"Only one of the definitions of the word 'angel' is messenger. Another definition of the word 'angel' is angel.  There is such a thing as supernatural angels.

Ok, then what does the word 'angel' is angel mean?   Where and what are "supernatural angels?"

Dont misunderstand me I believe that there are heavenly messengers that are sent to direct, aide, and do other things that help the saints do the Lords work here on earth.

14Are they [angels] not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
--Heb 1

So, you could say everyone on this board is an angel, acting as a ministering spirit to the heirs of salvation.

But there are also supernatural or spiritual beings that are angels, as well, who do the same thing.  That's their job description.

Unless they are in rebellion like Satan's angels--then their point is to try to harm, lie to,  and murder the human race.

[WhiteWings]

Enoch says there are 7 archangels.  He names them.

I know. Not everyone trusts the book of Enoch. That's why I limited myself to the Books all on this forum agree with.

[sheila]

 Rev of Christ...7 stars[angels] in His hand......Woman 12 stars in her crown[ about to birth manchild]...there are 12 archangels ..

  seven were appointed to distribute food to the poor/of which Stephen was one.   12 apostels chosen,one a devil,one loses his position

  Matthias appointed.....then Paul as one born out of season.[manchild]

[Molly]

Rev of Christ...7 stars[angels] in His hand......Woman 12 stars in her crown[ about to birth manchild]...there are 12 archangels ..

  seven were appointed to distribute food to the poor/of which Stephen was one.   12 apostels chosen,one a devil,one loses his position

  Matthias appointed.....then Paul as one born out of season.[manchild]

Sheila --do I dare ask who the 12 archangels are?

The seven angels in his hand are the angels of the 7 churches?  Do we know who they are?

[WhiteWings]

Michael is the archangel, the chief of the angels.
He is described as one of the chief princes and our prince.
When He stands up, things happen. He is described as standing for the children of thy people. So when He stands, there is a time of trouble that results in God's people being delivered, every one who's name if found written in the book.
He contends directly against Satan and the angels in heaven are described as being Michael's angels.

Because Michael does things that we might think God or Jesus should be doing: Is it possible that Michael could be Jesus Christ?

No.

^ACVJude 1
9 But Michael the arch-agent, when he disputed with the devil, contending about the body of Moses, dared not bring a railing judgment, but said, May Lord rebuke thee.

Michael is scared of satan.

^IAVDaniel 8
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Jesus crushes Satan without even lifting a finger.

^ACVMatthew 8
29 And behold, they cried out, saying, What is with us and thee, Jesus, Son of God? Did thou come here before the time to torment us?

This verse isn't about satan but demon but it shows that the demons are also scared of Jesus. My point is that all seem to be scared of Jesus; so Michael, who was scared of satan, can't be Jesus.

[Beloved Servant]

^ACVJude 1
9 But Michael the arch-agent, when he disputed with the devil, contending about the body of Moses, dared not bring a railing judgment, but said, May Lord rebuke thee.

Michael is scared of satan.

Based on your above conclusion, the the LORD Himself also is scared of Satan:

Zechariah 3:2;
The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?

[Molly]

Michael is scared of satan

That was my feeling, too, that Satan is higher up on the hierarchy of celestial beings than Michael, such that Michael dare not rebuke him.

When face to face over Moses body, they don't even seem to be equals.

[WhiteWings]

^ACVJude 1
9 But Michael the arch-agent, when he disputed with the devil, contending about the body of Moses, dared not bring a railing judgment, but said, May Lord rebuke thee.

Michael is scared of satan.

Based on your above conclusion, the the LORD Himself also is scared of Satan:

Zechariah 3:2;
The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?

I don't understand that verse....

^ACVZechariah 3
1 And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the agent of LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to be his adversary.
2 And LORD said to Satan, LORD rebuke thee, O Satan. Yea, LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee. Is this not a brand plucked out of the fire?


There are 3 persons present. Joshua, an angel and satan.
But suddenly a 4th person (LORD) starts talking.
Not only that; The LORD tells satan that the LORD will rebuke him. God is talking is talking in 3rd person?

Perhaps the God is speaking trough the angel?

3 And Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and is standing before the messenger.
4 And he answereth and speaketh unto those standing before him, saying: `Turn aside the filthy garments from off him.' And he saith unto him, `See, I have caused thine iniquity to pass away from off thee, so as to clothe thee with costly apparel.'
5 He also said, `Let them set a pure diadem on his head. And they set the pure diadem on his head, and clothe him with garments. And the messenger of Jehovah is standing,
===> Joshua speaks

6 and the agent of LORD doth protest to Joshua, saying:
7 `Thus said Jehovah of Hosts: If in My ways thou dost walk, And if My charge thou dost keep, Then also thou dost judge My house, And also thou dost keep My courts, And I have given to thee conductors among these standing by.
===> Angel speaks about God

Weird....
Verse 1: A group is defined. God is not included.
Verse 2: God is suddenly present and speak in 3rd person (about Himself)
Verse 3 onward: God is totally ignored. They speak about God as if He's not present.

I would expect the verse to be like: 2 And agent of LORD, said to Satan, LORD rebuke thee, O Satan. Yea, LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee. Is this not a brand plucked out of the fire?

[Molly]

Here's another place where the Captain of the LORD's host [from Josh 5] is mentioned.  He is called the Prince of the host here but it is the same word--Sar.  Other translations call him Commander of heaven's army, Commander of the host.  He is being opposed by the little horn. As in Joshua 5, he is not specifically identified by name.



9And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

10And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

11Yea, he magnified himself even to the Prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

--Dan 8

[sheila]

   we have to realize that Father has total control..of when and  in what way Satan is rebuked...and the angels dare not disobey God's order

' Father saved that priveledge for   Jesus Christ to rebuke him[a mere man/lowly son of God] that was much more of an insult to him...

  that Jesus say 'get behind me'  But, when satan  and the demons realized that Jesus had not come to destroy them at that time,they conspired to kill him


   Michael/eagle,Raphael/lion,Phanuel/calfGabriel/man, Jael[crushed Sisera head] Pravuil,Remmiel,Raguel,Zotiel,Saraquel,Uriel[11]

    Raphael.God heals[Luke the physician]...the four  Matthew,Mark,Luke,John  rep Michael,Gabriel,Phanuel and Raphael...the way things are set up down here

  reflect the heavenly set up in the Kingdom of Heaven.

[Beloved Servant]

Only one of the definitions of the word 'angel' is messenger.  Another definition of the word 'angel' is angel.

How does one define a word by using the exact same word?
Doing that explains nothing to the reader.
It can't be done.

[Beloved Servant]

   we have to realize that Father has total control..of when and  in what way Satan is rebuked...and the angels dare not disobey God's order

' Father saved that priveledge for   Jesus Christ to rebuke him[a mere man/lowly son of God] that was much more of an insult to him...

  that Jesus say 'get behind me'  But, when satan  and the demons realized that Jesus had not come to destroy them at that time,they conspired to kill him


   Michael/eagle,Raphael/lion,Phanuel/calfGabriel/man, Jael[crushed Sisera head] Pravuil,Remmiel,Raguel,Zotiel,Saraquel,Uriel[11]

    Raphael.God heals[Luke the physician]...the four  Matthew,Mark,Luke,John  rep Michael,Gabriel,Phanuel and Raphael...the way things are set up down here

  reflect the heavenly set up in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Sheila,

With respect to the Lord Jesus Christ should we dare to leave the Bible and reference other books besides the Word of God?

[sheila]

 even the Whole creation testifies to the Glory of God. There is a testimony in the heavens...not just signs of the zodiac