Tentmaker Forum

Michael is the archangel, the chief of the angels.
He is described as one of the chief princes and our prince.
When He stands up, things happen. He is described as standing for the children of thy people. So when He stands, there is a time of trouble that results in God's people being delivered, every one who's name if found written in the book.
He contends directly against Satan and the angels in heaven are described as being Michael's angels.

Because Michael does things that we might think God or Jesus should be doing: Is it possible that Michael could be Jesus Christ?

I believe that the Chief Messenger is Jesus Christ.  My simple reply :happy3: :HeartThrob:

 :HeartThrob:   As do I.

Michael is an archangel and a prince of Israel.  There's no reason to believe he is Jesus.  One question:  Do both of them appear in the same room at the same time? :laughing7:

They both appear in the book of Daniel.  I believe they also both appear in Revelation.  Michael is a warrior angel who stands up for the people of Israel.

He's pretty cool but he isn't Jesus.

Michael (Hebrew: מִיכָאֵל‎ (pronounced [ˌmixäˈʔel]), Micha'el or Mîkhā'ēl; Greek: Μιχαήλ, Mikhaḗl; Latin: Michael or Míchaël; Arabic: ميخائيل‎, Mīkhā'īl) is an archangel in Jewish, Christian, and Islamic tradition. He is viewed as the field commander of the Army of God. He is mentioned by name in the Book of Daniel,[3] the Book of Jude,[4] and the Book of Revelation, in which he leads God's armies against the Devil's forces during his uprising.[5] In the book of Daniel, Michael appears as "one of the chief princes"[3] who in Daniel's vision comes to Gabriel's aid in his contest with the angel of Persia (Dobiel). Michael is also described there as the advocate of the Children of Israel and as a "great prince who stands up for the children of your [Daniel's] people".[6]

In Hebrew, Michael means "who is like God" (mi-who, ke-as or like, El-deity), which in Talmudic tradition is interpreted as a rhetorical question: "Who is like God?" (which expects an answer in the negative) to imply that no one is like God. In this way, Michael is reinterpreted as a symbol of humility before God.[7][8]

Much of the late Midrashic detail about Michael was transmitted to Christianity through the Book of Enoch, whence it was taken up and further elaborated. Christian cultus devoted to the archangel was first initiated in the East, as a healer, at Chonae near Colossae in Phrygia and in the West, at the end of the fifth century, as a patron in war, at Monte Sant'Angelo sul Gargano. In late medieval Christianity, Michael, together with Saint George, became the patron saint of chivalry. Jean Molinet was one who glorified the primordial feat of arms of the archangel as "the first deed of knighthood and chivalrous prowess that was ever achieved."[9] Thus Michael was the natural patron of the first chivalric order of France, the Order of Saint Michael of 1469. In the British honours system, a chivalric order founded in 1818 is also named for these two saints, the Order of St Michael and St George. Michael is also considered in many Christian circles as the patron saint of the warrior. Police officers and soldiers, particularly paratroopers and fighter pilots, regard him as their patron. He is the Patron of the Catholic Police Guild. He is also a patron of Germany,[10] the City of Brussels,[11] and Kiev.

Roman Catholics, Anglicans, and Lutherans refer to him as Saint Michael the Archangel and also simply as Saint Michael. Orthodox Christians refer to him as the Taxiarch Archangel Michael or simply Archangel Michael.[12] Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh-day Adventists, and certain New Age Christian denominations refer to Michael as the Christ Michael, or Christ before he became man.[13][14][15] The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that Michael is the heavenly form of Adam from the Book of Genesis,[16][17][18] and that Michael assisted Jehovah (the heavenly form of Jesus Christ) in the creation of the world under the direction of God the Father.[19]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_(archangel)

In much of the Old Testament, this Being is identified as the angel of the Lord, but to Joshua, He identifies Himself as the captain of the Lord's Host!
Who is that? Who is the captain of the Lord's Host?

In Revelation 12:7 we saw that it is Michael that led the angel forces in Heaven.
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, Revelation 12:7.

Now we find that the angels in Heaven are Michael's angels and that Michael leads His angels in battle against Satan!
So, we can see that Michael is indeed the Captain of the angels. He is their leader.

Putting Joshua 5 and Revelation 12 together, we see that Joshua saw a man who identified Himself as the Captain of the host of the Lord.
That man was also identified as being the Lord in Chapter 6.
Archangel means the chief of the angels. He is the Chief of the angels! He is their commander, the Commander of the LORD'S army in Heaven, God's angels.
This is Michael the Archangel, the Captain of the host of the Lord, who is also the Lord!

The Word is the Captain of the Host

Now, in Revelation 19, we see a very interesting change in the leader of the armies of heaven. Michael will be called by a different name.

    Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
    His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
    He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
    And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses, Revelation 19:11-14.

We now see in verse 13 that it is The Word of God who leads the armies of heaven!
From John 1:1 we read: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

So, the Word of God is Jesus.
Jesus is leading the armies of heaven!

Michael is designated in the Book of Enoch, as "the prince of Israel" and the "archistratege"(meaning chief general in the Greek language) of God. He is the angel of forbearance and mercy (Enoch, xl:3) who taught Enoch the mysteries of clemency and justice (lxxi:2). Some speculate that the angel in the book of Jubilees (i:27 and ii:1), who is said to have instructed Moses on Mount Sinai and to have delivered to him the tablets of Law, may be Michael.

Enoch 9:1 states that Michael, along with Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel and Suriel heard the cries of men under the strain of the Watchers and their giant offspring. It was Michael and his compatriots that beseeched God on behalf of men, prompting Yahweh to call Enoch to prophethood.

In Enoch 10:15 Yahweh says to Michael; "Go and announce his crime to Samyaza, and to the others who are with him, who have been associated with women, that they might be polluted with all their impurity. And when all their sons shall be slain, when they shall see the perdition of their beloved, bind them for seventy generations underneath the earth, even to the day of Judgement, and of consummation, until the judgement, the effect of which will last forever and be completed."

Enoch 20:5 says that Michael presides over human virtue in order to command nations.

Enoch 24:4-10 has Enoch before the Tree of Life/Mercy, and Michael explains to him that he should not touch it, for it is for those who are 'elect' after the day of Judgement.

Enoch 40:8 says that Michael is patient and merciful.

Enoch 53:6 states that Michael, along with Gabriel, Raphael and Phanuel shall be strengthened during the Battle of Armageddon.

Enoch 58 shows Enoch overcome with terror over a vision he has, and Michael is quick to interpret. The terror is only for those who turn on Yahweh, that the Day of Judgement is for the elect, a day of covenant, while for sinners it is a day of inquisition.

Enoch 66:14-15 has Michael explaining to Enoch that the evil spirits [demons] shall bear witness against those of the flesh who supported them. Yet Enoch is told that Michael holds a secret oath so that the elect shall not perish by their knowledge like the sinners, Enoch 68:20-22.

Enoch 70:11-16 shows that Michael, Gabriel, Raphael and Phanuel always 'escort' Yahweh [God the Father], whenever he leaves his throne.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_(archangel)

I am unfamiliar with that book.

Rabbinic traditions

According to rabbinic Jewish tradition, Michael acted as the advocate of Israel, and sometimes had to fight with the princes of the other nations (cf. Daniel 10:13) and particularly with the angel Samael, Israel's accuser. Michael's enmity with Samael dates from the time when the latter was thrown down from heaven. Samael took hold of the wings of Michael, whom he wished to bring down with him in his fall; but Michael was saved by God (Midrash Pirke R. El. xxvi.).[20]

The rabbis declare that Michael entered upon his role of defender at the time of the biblical patriarchs. Thus, according to Rabbi Eliezer ben Jacob, it was Michael who rescued Abraham from the furnace into which he had been thrown by Nimrod (Midrash Genesis Rabbah xliv. 16). It was Michael, the "one that had escaped" (Genesis 14:13), who told Abraham that Lot had been taken captive (Midrash Pirke R. El.), and who protected Sarah from being defiled by Abimelech. He announced to Sarah that she would bear a son and he rescued Lot at the destruction of Sodom (Talmud B. M. 86b).

It is said that Michael prevented Isaac from being sacrificed by his father by substituting a ram in his place, and saved Jacob, while yet in his mother's womb, from being killed by Samael (Midr. Abkir, in Yalḳ., Gen. 110). Later Michael prevented Laban from harming Jacob (Pirke R. El. xxxvi.). According to one source, it was Michael who wrestled with Jacob and who afterward blessed him (Targum pseudo-Jonathan to Genesis xxxii. 25; Pirke R. El. xxxvii.).

The midrash Exodus Rabbah holds that Michael exercised his function of advocate of Israel at the time of the Exodus also, when Satan (as an adversary) accused the Israelites of idolatry and declared that they were consequently deserving of death by drowning in the Red Sea (Ex. R. xviii. 5). But according to Midr. Abkir, when Uzza, the tutelar angel of Egypt, summoned Michael to plead before God, Michael remained silent, and it was God himself who defended Israel.

Legend makes Michael the teacher of Moses; so that the Israelites are indebted to their advocate for the supreme good of the Torah. This idea is alluded to in Midrash Deuteronomy Rabbah xi. 6 in the statement that Michael declined to bring Moses' soul to God on the ground that he had been Moses' teacher.

Michael is said to have destroyed the army of Sennacherib (Midrash Exodus Rabbah xviii. 5), a deed normally attributed to an otherwise unnamed angel of destruction but perhaps accomplished by Uriel, Gabriel, or others.

Michael is also credited with being the angel who spoke to Moses in the burning bush (an honor often bestowed upon Zagzagel).

He is accepted in lore as well as being the special patron of Adam. Supposedly he was the first angel in all of the heavens to bow down before humanity.[21] Michael then kept an eye on the first family, remaining vigilant even after the fall of Adam and Eve and their expulsion from the Garden of Eden.



Altar by Joseph Lusenberg, 1876
In the apocryphal Conflict of Adam and Eve with Satan, Michael taught Adam how to farm. The archangel later brought Adam to heaven in a fiery chariot, giving him a tour of the blessed realm. After Adam's death, Michael helped convince the Lord to permit Adam's soul to be brought to heaven and cleansed of its great sin. Jewish legend also states Michael to be one of the three "men" who visited Abraham. He is said to have tried to prevent Israel from being led into captivity by Nebuchadnezzar II and to save the Temple from destruction; but the sins of the people were so great that he was powerless to carry his purposes into effect. There is a legend which seems to be of Jewish origin, and which was adopted by the Copts, to the effect that Michael was first sent by God to bring Nebuchadnezzar against Jerusalem, and that Michael was afterward very active in freeing his nation from Babylonian captivity (Amélineau, "Contes et Romans de l'Egypte Chrétienne," ii. 142 et seq.). According to a midrash, Michael saved Hananiah and his companions from the Fiery furnace (Midrash Genesis Rabbah xliv. 16). Michael was active in the time of Esther: "The more Haman accused Israel on earth, the more Michael defended Israel in heaven" (Midrash Esther Rabbah iii. 8). It was Michael who reminded Ahasuerus that he was Mordecai's debtor (Targum to Esther vi. 1); and there is a legend that Michael appeared to the high priest Hyrcanus, promising him assistance (comp. Josephus, "Ant." xiii. 10, § 3).

The motif of Michael and the dragon appears in Michael's fight with Samael in Assumptio Mosis, x.). This legend is not found in Jewish sources except insofar as Samael or Satan is called in the Kabbalah "the primitive serpent".

The idea that Michael was the advocate of the Jews became so prevalent that in spite of the rabbinical prohibition against appealing to angels as intermediaries between God and his people, Michael came to occupy a certain place in the Jewish liturgy. There were two prayers written beseeching him as the prince of mercy to intercede in favor of Israel: one composed by Eliezer ha-Kalir, and the other by Judah b. Samuel he-Hasid. But appeal to Michael seems to have been more common in ancient times. Thus Jeremiah is said (Baruch Apoc. Ethiopic, ix. 5) to have addressed a prayer to him. "When a man is in need he must pray directly to God, and neither to Michael nor to Gabriel" (Yer. Ber. ix. 13a).

With regard to the nature of the offerings which Michael brings to the altar, one opinion is that they are the souls of the just, while according to another they are fiery sheep. The former opinion, which has become prevalent in Jewish mystical writings, explains the important position occupied by Michael in Jewish eschatology. The idea that Michael is the Charon of individual souls, which is common among Christians, is not found in Jewish sources, but that he is in charge of the souls of the just appears in many Jewish writings.

Michael is said to have had a dispute with Samael over the soul of Moses (Midrash Deut. Rabbah xi. 6.) According to the Zohar, Michael accompanies the souls of the pious and helps them to enter the gates of the heavenly Jerusalem. It is said that Michael and his host are stationed at the gates of the heavenly Jerusalem and give admittance to the souls of the just. Michael's function is to open the gates also of justice to the just. It is also said that at the resurrection, Gabriel will sound the trumpet, at which the graves will open and the dead will rise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_(archangel)

Tradition, lore and legend (used twice).

Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 14, 2011, 04:10:16 AM



I am unfamiliar with that book.

If you want to study the angels, the book of Enoch is a must read I think.

Our Bible references it, but for some reason our Bible leaves out a lot of the detail on the angels.

I hear what you say above, how he does almost seem to resemble Jesus, but Michael is clearly one of the princes in the book of Daniel.  These princes were supernatural beings put in charge of the nations.  Each nation has a prince over it.  Michael is the prince of Israel.

So this would make Jesus equal to the other princes if you say Michael is Jesus.  I'm not so sure you would want to go there because Jesus is pre-eminent in all things.

That book will never enter my home.

     And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
    And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
    And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. Daniel 12:1-3

Now we see Michael who is called the great prince, stands up, and when he does a time of trouble starts and God's people are delivered.

Why is it that God's people are delivered when Michael stands up?

Jesus is our Deliverer.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 14, 2011, 04:21:31 AM


That book will never enter my home.

LOL Ok.  You're the one who is calling the archangel Michael Jesus.  I would think you might want to study up a bit more before you come to that conclusion.

Does this sound like Jesus?

12Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.

13But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

14Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

--Dan 10


Do you really think Jesus would be called 'one of the chief princes'?

To which of the angels did He say sit down at my right hand until I make all the enemies a footstool for your feet.

A new covenant not mediated by angels (can't find the verse)

How do you rectify these passages with the idea that Michael is Jesus?

He is called the great prince in Daniel 12:1.

He is also King of kings
and Lord of lords.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 14, 2011, 04:28:00 AM


     And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
    And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
    And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. Daniel 12:1-3

Now we see Michael who is called the great prince, stands up, and when he does a time of trouble starts and God's people are delivered.

Why is it that God's people are delivered when Michael stands up?

Jesus is our Deliverer.

Because Michael is a very powerful warrior archangel and the prince of Israel.

Jesus on the other hand is the Prince of Peace.

I'm sure Micahel does what Jesus tells him to do.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 14, 2011, 04:31:34 AM


He is called the great prince in Daniel 12:1.

He is also King of kings
and Lord of lords.

Michael is called the great prince--he is an archangel.

Jesus is called King of kings and LORD of Lords.

To which of the angels did He say sit down at my right hand until I make all the enemies a footstool for your feet?    ———> Jesus.

Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2011, 04:35:26 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 14, 2011, 04:31:34 AM


He is called the great prince in Daniel 12:1.

He is also King of kings
and Lord of lords.

Michael is called the great prince--he is an archangel.

Jesus is called King of kings and LORD of Lords.

...and Prince of Peace.

Quote from: micah7:9 on August 14, 2011, 02:44:29 AM
I believe that the Chief Messenger is Jesus Christ.  My simple reply :happy3: :HeartThrob:

Is He the messanger or the Message?  I could see his earthly body being the messanger of the WORD, the carrier of the fullness of deity.

The prince of Israel:

Yisra = To prevail over
El = the Divine ie;- the angel

Quote from: redhotmagma on August 14, 2011, 04:30:22 AM
To which of the angels did He say sit down at my right hand until I make all the enemies a footstool for your feet.

A new covenant not mediated by angels (can't find the verse)

How do you rectify these passages with the idea that Michael is Jesus?

The Son radiates God's own glory and expresses the very character of God, and he sustains everything by the mighty power of his command. When he had cleansed us from our sins, he sat down in the place of honor at the right hand of the majestic God in heaven.

This shows that the Son is far greater than the angels, just as the name God gave him is greater than their names.

For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father"? Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"?

And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."

--Heb 1


Hebrews 1:13
But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?


Hebrews 2:16
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 14, 2011, 04:42:18 AM



To which of the angels did He say sit down at my right hand until I make all the enemies a footstool for your feet?    ———> Jesus.

I forgot the all important BUT at the beginning, which is in contrast to the explanation of the son.  It seems as though a contrast is being laid down between the son and angels.  The word but can be a continuation, like for, but it seems the contrast is the difference here. 

ylt
For to which of the messengers said He ever, 'My Son thou art -- I to-day have begotten thee?' and again, 'I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son?'

The said He ever seems to exclude that He ever said that to an angel

"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, WITH THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, and with the trump of God" (I Thes. 4:16).

The King James Version states that the Lord shall descend from heaven "with the voice of the archangel," that is not exactly the way it is in the original.

The Greek uses the preposition EN meaning "in," and Young's Literal Translation correctly renders it, "Because the Lord Himself, IN a shout, IN the voice of a chief-messenger, and IN the trump of God, shall come down from heaven."

The Lord does not come "with" the voice of the archangel, but "in" the voice of the archangel.




We have listened to fairy tales much too long.
In the first place we discover that the word "angel," instead of being a translation, is but an evasion, being the English form of the Greek word AGGELOS, which to the average person means nothing at all.

The Greek word AGGELOS means nothing more than "messenger."

Ok so who are the messengers that have Christ in them?  Again I say He is the message we are the messengers.

"Ok so who are the messengers that have Christ in them?"

They are the ones like God.

Beloved Servant, you do understand that this is a teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses?

They believe that Jesus is the incarnation of the archangel Michael.  That he is not God.  They rewrite John 1 to say and the word was a god.--small 'g'.

All the angels of God worship Jesus when he is born.  You can't have it both ways.  Angels are not worshipped.

Beloved you dont stand a chance. They have the book of enoch as proof as well as Jewish scholars.

There is no way that they will SEE that the "chief" is First, and that Michael means "Who is like God," even tho Jesus Himself said he was EQUAL to God.
They will not see that an "angel" in both the OT "mal'âk" and NT "aggelos" are "messengers."

And when put together Who is like God is the Chief Messenger and that IF Jesus is not the FIRST messenger, then please show where there is ANOTHER FIRST MESSENGER WHO IS LIKE GOD.

Peace and Love Through the First Messenger.

Now you bring in the JW's as proof!

And what else would all the angels of God do but worship their Chief and Lead angel[Messenger]???????????

:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:  Micah  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 14, 2011, 05:35:52 AM


:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:  Micah  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Backatcha! :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :happy3:

Is Christ the message or the messenger?

and I have not brought up Enoch (no offense Molly).

I am asking questions, I'm sorry my EYES aren't OPENED like YOURS ARE MICAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

btw adding peace and love to the end of your message is like when someone says "I don't want to say anything bad about them but..."  sorry not buying the peace and love in this post

Christ is the anointing.

Micah you gotta be kidding me.  When are we allowed to worship angels in the Bible?  Angels are ministers to those who will inherit salvation.  Angels are also created beings.  Only God is allowed to be worshipped.


I, John, am the one who heard and saw all these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me.

But he said, "No, don't worship me. I am a servant of God, just like you and your brothers the prophets, as well as all who obey what is written in this book. Worship only God!"
--Rev 22

Mat 2

11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

Heb 1:6
And when he again bringeth in the firstborn into the world he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 14, 2011, 05:45:01 AM


Christ is the anointing.

evasive maneuvers? :bigGrin:

Is the Word the message, or the messenger?

You really think God is going to let his holy angels worship another angel?



"For you shall not worship any other God, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God." [Ex 3:14]

Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2011, 05:46:20 AM
Micah you gotta be kidding me.  When are we allowed to worship angels in the Bible?  Angels are ministers to those who will inherit salvation.  Angels are also created beings.  Only God is allowed to be worshipped.


I, John, am the one who heard and saw all these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me.

But he said, "No, don't worship me. I am a servant of God, just like you and your brothers the prophets, as well as all who obey what is written in this book. Worship only God!"
--Rev 22

Mat 2

11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

Heb 1:6
And when he again bringeth in the firstborn into the world he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Yep you have that right sister  " Only God is allowed to be worshipped."

Quote from: redhotmagma on August 14, 2011, 05:40:51 AM
Is Christ the message or the messenger?

and I have not brought up Enoch (no offense Molly).

I am asking questions, I'm sorry my EYES aren't OPENED like YOURS ARE MICAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

btw adding peace and love to the end of your message is like when someone says "I don't want to say anything bad about them but..."  sorry not buying the peace and love in this post

You dont have to "buy" anything, if thats how you feel about my signature thats ok.
Peace and Love Through Jesus :happy3:

Quote from: redhotmagma on August 14, 2011, 05:52:23 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 14, 2011, 05:45:01 AM


Christ is the anointing.

evasive maneuvers? :bigGrin:

Is the Word the message, or the messenger?

Both. 


"Evasive maneuvers?"
Never.
I actually find that condescending.

Quote from: redhotmagma on August 14, 2011, 05:52:23 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 14, 2011, 05:45:01 AM


Christ is the anointing.

evasive maneuvers? :bigGrin:

Is the Word the message, or the messenger?

Both  Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;

Well, Michael is not some pastor of whom we might say--he is an angel of God.

He is a supernatural being in heaven doing supernatural things and is called an archangel.  So who promoted him to God such that he can be worshipped?

Micah I'm just saying I don't hear peace or love coming out of that post, but this isn't live speaking and much can be lost in written communication.

So....

Peace and Love through Jesus :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2011, 05:58:04 AM
Well, Michael is not some pastor of whom we might say--he is an angel of God.

He is a supernatural being in heaven doing supernatural things and is called an archangel.  So who promoted him to God such that he can be worshipped?

Eph 4:3 being diligent to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of the peace;

Peace: G1515  eirēnē  (to join); peace (literally or figuratively); by implication prosperity: - one, peace, quietness, rest, + set at one again.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 14, 2011, 05:56:12 AM

Quote from: redhotmagma on August 14, 2011, 05:52:23 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 14, 2011, 05:45:01 AM


Christ is the anointing.

evasive maneuvers? :bigGrin:

Is the Word the message, or the messenger?

Both. 


"Evasive maneuvers?"
Never.
I actually find that condescending.

I was joking thus the smily face, and also using evasive since you used it a couple posts back, a little word play with you.

And now we go to the Word to learn something wonderful and exceptional about these creatures who have been described and even pictured so fantastically.
And it is a fact completely missed by most Bible students and, I dare say, by ALL Bible scholars!


Abraham was once sitting, in the heat of the day, in his tent door. And he did not fall asleep and have a nightmare. But fully awake, in his right mind, he entertained some visitors. The Word says this: "And he lifted up his eyes, and looked, and lo, THREE MEN stood by him" (Gen. 18:2).

Now we are not studying the book, "Alice in Wonderland." We are not reading about mock turtles, nor March hares, nor hobgoblins, nor ghosts, nor bug-a-boos. We are studying the fully inspired Word of God. And surely none of us are so simple that we need to go to a museum to learn what kind of a creature a man is. All of us are dumb on some subject; I will admit that much. But surely we are not so dumb that when we see a man walking down the street we mistake him for a monkey, or a fairy!

God's Word says that three "MEN" came to Abraham as he sat in his tent door. And there is only one race of beings on earth that is called "men." If we have not enough intelligence to know what kind of beings they are, then we most certainly have no business running loose, but need to be in a padded room where we will be cared for. Abraham entertained these three men who visited him. He hurried in to Mrs. Abraham and got her on the job baking cakes, and had a servant kill a calf. "And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set the tree, and they did eat" (Gen. 18:18). Reading on, in Gen. 18:16 we find the following, "And the MEN rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom." In verse 22 we read this, "And the MEN turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the Lord."

That same evening, two of these three men arrived in Sodom. Lot met them, took them in, and gave them their supper. The men of Sodom also saw them, following which there was an unfortunate scene at Lot's house, a result of which was that "the MEN put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut the door" (Gen. 19:10). In verse 12 we read, "And the MEN said to Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place: for we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it." Lot had no success trying to persuade his family to leave Sodom. He himself lingered as long as possible. And then in verse 16 we read, "And while he lingered, the MEN laid hold upon his hand." They forced him to leave, together with his wife and two daughters. And these men were God's messengers, His angels, who both delivered Lot and destroyed Sodom.

Jacob was quite a character, a very human sort of person. And one day he had a harrowing experience. He must face his brother Esau, who he had tricked and supplanted. He was afraid of losing his head. Esau was coming toward him with four hundred men. So Jacob figured it all out how to appease his brother's wrath. First he sent drove after drove of livestock as a present to his brother, then he sent his own herds and servants and family, but he stayed behind. Then that night, as Jacob remained alone on the other side of the river no doubt shivering in his boots, we read this, "And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a MAN with him until the breaking of the day" (Gen. 32:24). Quite a wrestling match, that!

In Judges 13 we read of a man by the name of Manoah, and his wife. God sent one of His messengers to them. And in verse 6 we read, "Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, a MAN of God came unto me, and his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible. In verse 8 we read, "Then Manoah entreated the Lord, and said, O my Lord, let the MAN of God which Thou didst send come again unto us." Then in verse 10 we read, "Behold the MAN hath appeared unto me, that came unto me the other day. And Manoah arose, and went after his wife, and came to the MAN, and said unto him, Art thou the MAN that spakest unto the woman? And he said, I am. Here this angel of God admitted of being a man. "Art thou THE MAN ... I AM."

Daniel also had some rather startling experiences with God's messengers during his sojourn on earth. And in Dan. 9:21 we read this, "Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even THE MAN GABRIEL, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me." No, it was not the fairy Gabriel, not a nymph, nor a sybil, nor an elf; but "THE MAN GABRIEL."

Oh, we have been told a lot of funny stories! But it is high time to awaken, time to begin to face facts! In Dan. 10:1-5 we find Daniel on a fast. And while on this three-weeks' fast, while beside the river Hiddekel, he met another angel or messenger of God. Here is how he described him:
"Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain MAN clothed in linen." In Daniel 10:21 Michael the archangel, or chief messenger, is called, "Michael your prince." I never heard of a prince among men being a funny sexless thing with wings! Did you? In the 12th chapter of Daniel we find some further experiences with God's angels; and in verses 6 and 7 they are called men. "The MAN clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river."

Turning now to the New Testament we find some further startling facts. Our Lord had arisen. And Mk. 16:5 tells us that, upon finding the stone rolled away from the tomb, the women entered. "And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young MAN sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment." Lk. 24:4 in recording the same event says, "Behold, two MEN stood by them in shining garments." Then our Lord ascended. As the disciples stood gazing into the sky, "Behold, two MEN stood by them in white apparel" (Acts 1:10).

Lastly in the book of Revelation we find the capstone as it were, two of the plainest of statements, which identify God's angels as men, two statements that no one but a blind man could miss or a nitwit misunderstand.

In Rev. 18:21 we find a mighty angel talking to John, and reading on concerning this same mighty angel in Rev. 19:10, we find he himself stating concerning his identity,
"Then I fell prostrate at his feet to worship, but he restrained me and said, Refrain! You must not do that! I am only another servant with you and your brethren who have accepted and hold the testimony borne by Jesus. Worship God!"
John's brethren were all men.
And further, in Rev. 21:9, one of the seven angels of Rev. 16:1 returns to John to show him some further truths. Then in Rev. 22:9 this same angel has this to say concerning himself. "I am thy fellowservant, and of THY BRETHREN THE PROPHETS."
The prophets were all men.
This angel was merely one of them who now was serving in a higher realm of spirit, but had appeared for a very special purpose while performing that higher service. An angel in scripture is never a woman - always a man.

And finally, of the angel that showed John the glory of the Holy City which came down from God out of heaven, it is said, "He (the angel) measured its wall also, one hundred and forty-four cubits by a MAN'S measure (of a cubit from his elbow to his third finger tip) which IS THE MEASURE OF THE ANGEL" (Rev. 21:17, Amplified).

Whenever we find the word "angel" in our Bibles, it is a mere evasion which should be translated as "messenger." God's messengers, His angels, may be either men in the flesh, or the spirits of departed saints, or any other order of creature from above or beneath, who bears a message from God.

Quote from: redhotmagma on August 14, 2011, 06:02:50 AM
Micah I'm just saying I don't hear peace or love coming out of that post, but this isn't live speaking and much can be lost in written communication.

So....

Peace and Love through Jesus :HeartThrob:

It was a peace and love post but I was trying to sarcastic  :sigh: I should not have added the messenger. Thank you for setting me straight.
Peace and Love Through Jesus :HeartThrob: :bigGrin:

Quote from: micah7:9 on August 14, 2011, 06:05:14 AM

Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2011, 05:58:04 AM
Well, Michael is not some pastor of whom we might say--he is an angel of God.

He is a supernatural being in heaven doing supernatural things and is called an archangel.  So who promoted him to God such that he can be worshipped?

Eph 4:3 being diligent to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of the peace;

Peace: G1515  eirēnē  (to join); peace (literally or figuratively); by implication prosperity: - one, peace, quietness, rest, + set at one again.

Does that somehow answer my question?

How can you reconcile an angel being worshipped?

Beloved Servant.  Obviously they are not men.  They might appear as men.  But, they are doing supernatural things that ordinary men cannot do.

But, what does this have to do with the archangel Michael?

That was very good Beloved! I agree totally with you or who ever wrote that, The Bible would be so much more understood if the word messenger was used rather than angel.
When I think about it I believe the translators(humans) wanted to keep supersitious and pagan things alive. But thats just me.

How can you reconcile an angel being worshipped?


WHO IS GOD'S CHIEF MESSENGER?

Quote from: micah7:9 on August 14, 2011, 06:16:29 AM
That was very good Beloved! I agree totally with you or who ever wrote that, The Bible would be so much more understood if the word messenger was used rather than angel.
When I think about it I believe the translators(humans) wanted to keep supersitious and pagan things alive. But thats just me.

Heretic !  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2011, 06:13:16 AM
Beloved Servant.  Obviously they are not men.  They might appear as men.  But, they are doing supernatural things that ordinary men cannot do.

But, what does this have to do with the archangel Michael?

Molly, I mean this with no disrespect, but I feel that you have your mind set on earthy understandings of mens doctrines. Yes messengers do things that mankind cannot do thats why God sends them. All things were created, but where do we read that "angels" were created as "beings" as you say? I maybe wrong and it wont be the first time.
Gen 2:1  And the heavens and the earth are completed, and all their host;

Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2011, 06:13:16 AM
They might appear as men.  But, they are doing supernatural things that ordinary men cannot do.

:thumbsup:  I believe some messengers are human, while some are supernatural, non-earthly beings. 

Molly, haven't you seen supernatural messengers/"angels"?  What did they look like?

Sorry, I guess though related, this does sort of deviate from the OP just a little bit.   :Whistle:

Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 14, 2011, 06:19:15 AM



How can you reconcile an angel being worshipped?


WHO IS GOD'S CHIEF MESSENGER?

There is more than one chief angel, also known as archangel.

Quote from: jabcat on August 14, 2011, 06:34:11 AM

Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2011, 06:13:16 AM
They might appear as men.  But, they are doing supernatural things that ordinary men cannot do.

:thumbsup:  I believe some messengers are human, while some are supernatural, non-earthly beings. 

Molly, haven't you seen supernatural messengers/"angels"?  What did they look like?

Men. lol

Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2011, 06:42:55 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 14, 2011, 06:19:15 AM



How can you reconcile an angel being worshipped?


WHO IS GOD'S CHIEF MESSENGER?

There is more than one chief angel, also known as archangel.

What other "archangel" is there? From the Bible.

Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2011, 06:42:55 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 14, 2011, 06:19:15 AM



How can you reconcile an angel being worshipped?


WHO IS GOD'S CHIEF MESSENGER?

There is more than one chief angel, also known as archangel.

What are their names?

Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 14, 2011, 06:46:09 AM

Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2011, 06:42:55 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 14, 2011, 06:19:15 AM



How can you reconcile an angel being worshipped?


WHO IS GOD'S CHIEF MESSENGER?

There is more than one chief angel, also known as archangel.

What are their names?

Our Bible only mentions two archangels, Michael and Gabriel.

But the book of Enoch mentions 7.

Where do you find Gabriel as an archangel?

There is not one scripture in the entire Bible wherein the mighty angel Gabriel is named an archangel.

Furthermore, there is no instance in scripture where the word archangel appears in its plural form "archangel(s)."

There is no plurality of archangels inferred anywhere in God's blessed Book. Our omniscient God has nowhere told us that there are more than one anchangel, or that there ever were two or three or more archangels. You will have to tear the Bible all to pieces if you teach that!

It is an extra-Biblical teaching.

God declares in the plainest of language that there is only ONE. Jude, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, penned these meaningful words, "Yet Michael THE ARCHANGEL, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, Jehovah rebuke thee" (Jude 9).

Michael is not spoken of very often in the scriptures, but when he is, it is most significant.
According to Jude there is only ONE archangel; he uses the definite article: "the" archangel; and "the" archangel is named "Michael." Only one other passage of scripture mentions the archangel: "For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven in a shout, in THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL..."

That is A-L-L the Bible has to say about archangels!
Only two verses in the whole Bible!

Incredible, isn't it, after all the fanciful tales and elaborate doctrinal theories we have been given!
Because men will not hear what is written, they misrepresent these and other plain statements of the Word of God.

It should be clear to any thinking mind that by the very nature of the case the existence of more than one archangel would be an utter impossibility.

The Greek word ARCHO (arch) is a political term which means "to be FIRST in political rank or power." F-I-R-S-T! 
How can more than one be FIRST? It is a contradiction of terms; it is a linguistical and grammatical absurdity.

It is like a nation having three kings, three presidents, or three prime ministers!

In Dan. 10:13 Michael's position is said to be "one of the chief princes," but as Dr. Young has pointed out in his rendering (Young's Literal Translation), the sentence should read, "FIRST of the chief heads."
There are other "principalities and powers," but He is "far above all" of them (Eph. 1:21).
Of Michael alone it is said, He is "The Angel" and "The Great Prince" and "The First" of the chief heads! (Dan. 12:1; 10:13)

Praise the Name of the Lord! Glory! Beloved that was outstanding!  :bigGrin: :happy3: :HeartThrob: :thumbsup:

We are of ONE spirit, Micah!  :HeartThrob:

Colossians 2:18-19
King James Version (KJV)


18Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

19And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

Angels: no;

now notice the difference:

"T-H-E" archangel: a resounding yes.

Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2011, 07:09:25 AM
Colossians 2:18-19
King James Version (KJV)


18Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

19And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

Amen! I agree. Only, if you can SEE that Michael is Jesus and Jesus is Lord God.
I believe you are stumbling over the doctrines of men and pagan teaching, the same kind of "stuff" that the people of Israel picked up in Egypt and were told not to.
Where is Jesus now....He's in the heavens and if that be true, and it is, then when He was here on earth He was the Chief Messenger. And if He was the First and Chief Messenger here then He is STILL the Chief Messenger now in the heavens.

Jesus never refers to himself as an angel or as 'the chief messenger' or as an archangel.

I am not stumbling over anything.  Hope it stays that way.

Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2011, 07:27:33 AM
Jesus never refers to himself as an angel or as 'the chief messenger' or as an archangel.

I am not stumbling over anything.  Hope it stays that way.

He did not have to refer Himself, if He was not the chief messenger on earth, then who was? Please?

Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2011, 07:27:33 AM
Jesus never refers to himself as an angel or as 'the chief messenger' or as an archangel.

Then Manoah said to the Angel of the LORD, "What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?"
And the Angel of the LORD said to him, "Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?"   Judges 13:17-18 KJV

He tells Manoah that His name is Wonderful.

In Isaiah 9:6 we read a prophecy of the birth of Jesus:
For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6 KJV

The Hebrew word for "wonderful" in Judges 13:18 is the very same Hebrew word for "Wonderful" in Isaiah 9:6.
The Strong index number is 6382 and it means incomprehensible, beyond our understanding, wonderful.

So The Angel of the LORD says that his name is wonderful, it is incomprehensible, beyond our understanding.
In Isaiah 9:6, we find that Jesus' name is also incomprehensible and beyond our understanding.

Jesus and the Angel of the Lord have the same Name.

Quote from: redhotmagma on August 14, 2011, 04:30:22 AM
To which of the angels did He say sit down at my right hand until I make all the enemies a footstool for your feet.

Matthew 22:44 answers us:

"'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet."'

Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 14, 2011, 06:58:55 AMGod declares in the plainest of language that there is only ONE. Jude, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, penned these meaningful words, "Yet Michael THE ARCHANGEL, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, Jehovah rebuke thee" (Jude 9).

QuoteAccording to Jude there is only ONE archangel; he uses the definite article: "the" archangel; and "the" archangel is named "Michael."

Rover the dog was barking.
Does this prove there is only one dog?

So imo "the" doesn't prove there is only one archangel. Neither does it prove there are more.

QuoteOnly one other passage of scripture mentions the archangel: "For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven in a shout, in THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL..."

That is A-L-L the Bible has to say about archangels!
Only two verses in the whole Bible!

Incredible, isn't it, after all the fanciful tales and elaborate doctrinal theories we have been given!
Because men will not hear what is written, they misrepresent these and other plain statements of the Word of God.

It should be clear to any thinking mind that by the very nature of the case the existence of more than one archangel would be an utter impossibility.

The Greek word ARCHO (arch) is a political term which means "to be FIRST in political rank or power." F-I-R-S-T! 
How can more than one be FIRST? It is a contradiction of terms; it is a linguistical and grammatical absurdity.

It is like a nation having three kings, three presidents, or three prime ministers!

Agreed. But the Bible is mainly about Isreal. So what if Michael is the chief angel appointed to Israel?
Or the chief of a group of angels with a certain task?
A bit like a king may have a chief of gardeners, a chief of arms, a chief of butlers, etc

As  a thought, but not as a proof of anything.... God seems to like the number 7. So why not 7 archangels?
^ACVRevelation 8
2 And I saw the seven agents who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.


I think there is to little information for a firm conclusion.

But there are no other archangels, yes 7 is His number, but he only mentions one.

"A bit like a king may have a chief of gardeners, a chief of arms, a chief of butlers, etc"
But that aint even relevent. There is no "may have," there is only one archangel.

"Does this prove there is only one dog?" No, but hes the biggest and loudest.
:2c:

Goodnight.  :bigGrin:

Quote from: micah7:9 on August 14, 2011, 09:01:10 AM
But there are no other archangels, yes 7 is His number, but he only mentions one.

"A bit like a king may have a chief of gardeners, a chief of arms, a chief of butlers, etc"
But that aint even relevent. There is no "may have," there is only one archangel.

That what we are discussing Micah.
I've yet to see proof there is just one or more of them.

Quote"Does this prove there is only one dog?" No, but hes the biggest and loudest.
:2c:

My point was that "the" doesn't have to mean there are no other barking dogs.
Obama, the president, played golf. Does that mean there are no other presidents on earth?

QuoteGoodnight.  :bigGrin:

I just finished breakfast :winkgrin:

Quoting several translations of Daniel 10:13
I marked a few different renderings in red.
The first question is "what is one"?
a] He is one of several princes?
b] He is number one, the leader, of the princes?

If the answer is 'a' then there are 2 possible conclusions:
1] There is more than 1 archangel and all are equal
2] There is more than 1 archangel and Michael is their leader.


If the answer is 'b' then there are 2 possible conclusions:
1] Only the leader is called Archangel.
2] Michael is the leader of several Archangels.  -> Like prince of princes, lord of lords, etc

All translations seem to agree that there are several leaders. But not who is the leader of them is far less clear. (Besides Father and Son of course)

---

13 But the prince of the kingdom of the Persians withstood me twenty-one days: and behold, Michael, one of the princes, came to help me; and I left him there with the chief of the kingdom of the Persians:
13 But, the ruler of the kingdom of Persia, withstood me twenty–one days, but lo! Michael, one of the chief rulers, came in to help me,––and, I, left him there, beside the kings of Persia.
13 But the prince @ of the kingdom @ of Persia @ withstood @ me one @ and twenty @ days @: but, lo, Michael @, one @ of the chief @ princes @, came @ to help @ me; and I remained @ there with @ the kings @ of Persia @.
13 `And the head of the kingdom of Persia is standing over-against me twenty and one days, and lo, Michael, first of the chief heads, hath come in to help me, and I have remained there near the kings of Persia;
13 But the ruler of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me. And I remained there with the kings of Persia.
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me: and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
13 But the angel of the kingdom of Persia put himself against me for twenty-one days; but Michael, one of the chief angels, came to my help; and when I came he was still there with the angel of the kings of Persia.
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
13 But the prince of the kingdom of the Persians withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the princes, came to help me; and I left him there with the prince of the kingdom of the Persians.
13 But the leader of the kingdom of the Persians resisted me for twenty-one days, and behold, Michael, one of the primary leaders, came to help me, and I remained there next to the king of the Persians.
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
13 But the prince of the kingdom of the Persians resisted me one and twenty days: and behold Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, and I remained there by the king of the Persians.
13 and the governor of the sovereigndom of Persia stands against me twenty-one days: ​and behold, Michah El, one of the head governors, comes to help me; and I remain there beside the sovereigns of Persia.
13 But the prince governor of the kingdom sovereigndom of Persia withstood stood against me one and twenty days: but, lo behold , Michael Michah El , one of the chief princes head governors , came to help me; and I remained there with beside the kings sovereigns of Persia.
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me: and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Paras withstood me twenty-one days; but, behold, Mikha'el, one of the chief princes, came to help me: and I remained there with the kings of Paras.
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I was left over there beside the kings of Persia.
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days: and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia stood up against me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I obtained the victory there with the kings of Persia.
13 However, the prince of the kingdom of Persia was opposing me for twenty-one days. But Michael, one of the leading princes, came to help me, because I was left there with the kings of Persia.
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; but, behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was left there with the kings of Persia.
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; but, behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was left there with the kings of Persia.
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia stood up against me one and twenty days; but lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I was left there victorious with the kings of Persia.
13 »The prince of the kingdom of Persia opposed me twenty-one days but lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
13 And the chief of the kingdom of Persia stood against me twenty and one days: and behold, Michael, one of the first chiefs, came, to help me; and I was left there near the kings of Persia.
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; but, behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me: and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

---

I think this gives a fairly balanced view: http://www.pastorpauley.com/faq/archangels.pdf

:2c:

Exactly, ww.  He's one of many.

Quote from: micah7:9 on August 14, 2011, 07:34:40 AM

Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2011, 07:27:33 AM
Jesus never refers to himself as an angel or as 'the chief messenger' or as an archangel.

I am not stumbling over anything.  Hope it stays that way.

He did not have to refer Himself, if He was not the chief messenger on earth, then who was? Please?

He is Jesus, Son of God.  Even the demons know who he is.

When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell down before him and said with a loud voice, "What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, do not torment me."
--Luke 8:28


PS Michael is not a messenger angel, he is a warring angel.  Nowhere do we see him bringing a message.  He is always fighting.

Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2011, 10:48:56 AM
Michael is not a messenger angel, he is a warring angel.  Nowhere do we see him bringing a message.  He is always fighting.

Perhaps this has been overlooked, but, Molly,

the definition of the word angel is:

messenger.

Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2011, 10:48:56 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on August 14, 2011, 07:34:40 AM

Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2011, 07:27:33 AM
Jesus never refers to himself as an angel or as 'the chief messenger' or as an archangel.

I am not stumbling over anything.  Hope it stays that way.

He did not have to refer Himself, if He was not the chief messenger on earth, then who was? Please?

He is Jesus, Son of God.  Even the demons know who he is.

When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell down before him and said with a loud voice, "What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, do not torment me."
--Luke 8:28


PS Michael is not a messenger angel, he is a warring angel.  Nowhere do we see him bringing a message.  He is always fighting.

See post #73

Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 14, 2011, 03:46:20 PM

Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2011, 10:48:56 AM
Michael is not a messenger angel, he is a warring angel.  Nowhere do we see him bringing a message.  He is always fighting.

Perhaps this has been overlooked, but, Molly,

the definition of the word angel is:

messenger.

Only one of the definitions of the word 'angel' is messenger.  Another definition of the word 'angel' is angel.  There is such a thing as supernatural angels.


In Daniel 10:13 the angel Gabriel is telling Daniel why he is late in getting to him.  He describes a supernatural dispute where the [spirit] prince of Persia is withstanding him and the archangel Michael comes to help him.  Please notice that the country of Persia [as does every country] has a supernatural being over it called 'a prince.'  The dispute that Gabriel is describing to Daniel is happening in the heavenlies.   This type of dispute in the heavenlies is what Paul is describing in Ephesians, as he presses us into battle as part of the host of heaven, telling us to vibrate against the evil beings in the heavenlies.

Only young's literal translation [weakly] supports your view in any way, and only then, by implying that Michael, prince of Israel, was the first to be appointed to this position.


New International Version (©1984)
But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.

New Living Translation (©2007)
But for twenty-one days the spirit prince of the kingdom of Persia blocked my way. Then Michael, one of the archangels, came to help me, and I left him there with the spirit prince of the kingdom of Persia.

English Standard Version (©2001)
The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia,

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
The commander of the Persian kingdom opposed me for 21 days. But then Michael, one of the chief commanders, came to help me because I was left alone with the kings of Persia.

King James Bible
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

American King James Version
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, see, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

American Standard Version
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me: and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Bible in Basic English
But the angel of the kingdom of Persia put himself against me for twenty-one days; but Michael, one of the chief angels, came to my help; and when I came he was still there with the angel of the kings of Persia.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But the prince of the kingdom of the Persians resisted me one and twenty days: and behold Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, and I remained there by the king of the Persians.

Darby Bible Translation
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

English Revised Version
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me: and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Webster's Bible Translation
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

World English Bible
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; but, behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me: and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Young's Literal Translation
'And the head of the kingdom of Persia is standing over-against me twenty and one days, and lo, Michael, first of the chief heads, hath come in to help me, and I have remained there near the kings of Persia;

Quote from: wwAll translations seem to agree that there are several leaders. But not who is the leader of them is far less clear. (Besides Father and Son of course)

The leader of them is described here, and he is called very clearly the Prince of princes.

Is that Michael?  Or Jesus?


24And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

--Daniel 8



BTW, would you say we are being destroyed right now by peace?

'Prince of princes' in Daniel 8 is translated from Sar sar.

'Captain' [of the LORD's host] in Joshua 5 is also translated from sar.  So that could be translated 'Prince of the LORD's host.'

Joshua meets the Prince of the LORD's hosts,  and bows down and worships him.  We do not worship angels.   The fact that Joshua worships him tells us who he is, and it's not an angel.


13And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?

14And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?

15And the captain of the LORD's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

--Joshua 5

Peace might be the best translation here.

שׁלוה
shalvâh
BDB Definition:
1) quietness, ease, prosperity
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from H7951
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2392d

Derivatives
2392a שָׁלוּ (shālû) prosperity.
2392b שְׁלִי (shĕlı̂) quiet, private.
2392c שָׁלֵו (shālēw) quiet, prosperous.
2392d שַׁלְוָה (shalwâ) quietness, prosperity.

The whole verse is about satan, excpet "the prince of princes"

When I read several translation I get the impression that "destroyed by peace" is more like quitetly detroying people. For example with false teachings. False peace. Silent assassin. That kind of meaning.
Prince of princes is Jesus. It's the revealtion part were satans armies attack the saints.

25 And the yoke of his chain shall prosper: there is craft in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by craft shall destroy many, and he shall stand up for the destruction of many, and shall crush them as eggs in his hand.
25 and, by his cunning, will he both cause deceit to succeed in his hand, and, in his own heart, will he shew himself to be great, and, by their careless security, will he destroy many,––and, against the ruler of rulers, will he stand up, but, without hand, shall be broken in pieces.
25 And through his policy @ also he shall cause craft @ to prosper @ in his hand @; and he shall magnify @ himself in his heart @, and by peace @ shall destroy @ many @: he shall also stand up @ against the Prince @ of princes @; but he shall be broken @ without @ hand @.
25 `And by his understanding he hath also caused deceit to prosper in his hand, and in his heart he exerteth himself, and by ease he destroyeth many; and against the prince of princes he standeth--and without hand he is broken.
25 And through his policy he shall cause deceit to prosper in his hand, and he shall magnify himself in his heart. And he shall destroy many in [their] security. He shall also stand up against the Prince of princes, but he shall be br
25 And through his policy he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and in their security shall he destroy many: he shall also stand up against the prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
25 And his designs will be turned against the holy people, causing deceit to do well in his hand; in his heart he will make himself great, and send destruction on numbers who are living unconscious of their danger; and he will put himself up against the prince of princes; but he will be broken, though not by men's hands.
25 And through his policy also he will cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he will magnify himself in his heart, and by peace will destroy many: he will also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he will be broken without hand.
25 And the yoke of his chain shall prosper: there is underhanded treachery in his hand, and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by deceit he shall destroy many, and shall stand up for the destruction of many, and shall crush them like eggs in his hand.
25 according to his will, and treachery will be guided by his hand. And his heart will be inflated, and by the abundance of everything he will kill many, and he will rise up against the Lord of lords, and he will be knocked down without a hand.
25 And through his cunning shall he cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he will magnify himself in his heart, and by prosperity will corrupt many; and he will stand up against the Prince of princes: but he shall be broken without hand.
25 According to his will, and craft shall be successful in his hand: and his heart shall be puffed up, and in the abundance of all things he shall kill many: and he shall rise up against the prince of princes, and shall be broken without hand.
25 and through his comprehension deceit also prospers in his hand; and he greatens in his heart and by serenity ruins many: he also stands against the Governor of governors; and is broken by a final hand.
25 And through his policy comprehension also he shall cause craft deceit to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify greaten himself in his heart, and by peace serenity shall destroy ruin many: he shall also stand up against the Prince Governor of princes governors ; but he shall be broken without by a final hand.
25 And through his policy he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and in their security shall he destroy many: he shall also stand up against the prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
25 Through his policy he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and in [their] security shall he destroy many: he shall also stand up against the prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
25 And through his cunning he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and in time of security shall he destroy many; he shall also stand up against the prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many; he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
25 And with his understanding he shall cause the deceit in his hand to prosper, and he shall magnify [himself] in his heart, and by peace he shall destroy many; he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes, and without hand he shall be broken.
25 And through his intelligence, and because he prospereth, is craftiness in his hand; and in his heart will he magnify himself, and in peace will he destroy many: he will also stand up against the Prince of princes; but without a human hand will he be broken.
25 By his treachery he will succeed through deceit. He will have an arrogant attitude, and he will destroy many who are unaware of his schemes. He will rise up against the Prince of princes, yet he will be broken apart – but not by human agency.
25 Through his cunning he shall cause deceit to prosper by his influence, and he shall be great in his own mind, and without warning he shall destroy many. He shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be shattered, but not by human hands.
25 Through his cunning he shall cause deceit to prosper by his influence, and he shall be great in his own mind, and without warning he shall destroy many. He shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be shattered, but not by human hands.
25 And through his cunning will he cause fraud to prosper in his hand, and he will magnify himself in his heart, and he will destroy many in the midst of security, and against the Prince of princes will he stand up; but he shall be broken without hand.
25 »Through his policy he will cause deceit to prosper in his hand. He will boast about himself in his heart. In their security they will destroy many. He will even stand up against the prince of princes; but he will be destroyed without human power.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause deceit to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
25 And by his intelligence and he caused deceit to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify in his heart, and in security he shall destroy many: and against the Chief of chiefs he shall stand; and without hand shall he be broken.
25 Through his policy he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and in their security shall he destroy many: he shall also stand up against the prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Quote from: wwThe whole verse is about satan, excpet "the prince of princes"

When I read several translation I get the impression that "destroyed by peace" is more like quitetly detroying people. For example with false teachings. False peace. Silent assassin. That kind of meaning.
Prince of princes is Jesus. It's the revealtion part were satans armies attack the saints.

Yes, the Prince of princes is Jesus.  Agree. 

This is one of the passages where end time Christians point to a final AntiChrist, a man with the indwelling spirit of Satan.  He destroys with peace.  What a concept!  This makes him a fake [negative] image of the Prince of peace.

QuoteIt's the revealtion part were satans armies attack the saints

This one?


17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. [Rev 12]


Broken without hand--the Saints will overcome him with the blood of the Lamb.  After this, we see the picture of Jesus leading the army of saints in heaven.


11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

--Rev 19

"Michael, one of the chief princes"

ONE
???
'echa^d
BDB Definition:
1) one (number)
1a) one (number)
1b) each, every
1c) a certain
1d) an (indefinite article)
1e) only, once, once for all
1f) one...another, the one...the other, one after another, one by one
1g) first
1h) eleven (in combination), eleventh (ordinal)

CHIEF
  ??????
ri'sho^n
BDB Definition:
1) first, primary, former (adjective)
1a) former (of time)
1a1) ancestors
1a2) former things
1b) foremost (of location)
1c) first (in time)
1d) first, chief (in degree)
2) first, before, formerly, at first (adverb)

PRINCE
???
s´ar
BDB Definition:
1) prince, ruler, leader, chief, chieftain, official, captain
1a) chieftain, leader
1b) vassal, noble, official (under king)
1c) captain, general, commander (military)
1d) chief, head, overseer (of other official classes)
1e) heads, princes (of religious office)
1f) elders (of representative leaders of people)
1g) merchant-princes (of rank and dignity)
1h) patron-angel
1i) Ruler of rulers (of God)
1j) warden


Let's take the primary meaning of each Hebrew word.

ONE of the FIRST PRINCES

If we compare this with say the US army a proper translation would be:  ONE of the GENERALS
Very stricktly speaking ONE in this verse is an amount, number of units, etc
Not a rank.

I'm aware another defenition of ONE is first which would mean highest in rank. Using US military terms there would be 4-star and 5-star generals/Archangels.
Another interpretation is that Michael is no Archangel at all. He something different with a higher rank and different title. But that interpretation is proven wrong by Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel

My (preliminary) conclusion: There are at least 2 archangels and Micheal is 1 of them.

I would go one step further and say there are 7.
^ACVRevelation 8
2 And I saw the seven agents who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.

Enoch says there are 7 archangels.  He names them.

Our Bible says Gabriel is one of the 7 who stand before the throne of God.

Luke 1:19
And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

"Only one of the definitions of the word 'angel' is messenger. Another definition of the word 'angel' is angel.  There is such a thing as supernatural angels.

Ok, then what does the word 'angel' is angel mean?   Where and what are "supernatural angels?"

Dont misunderstand me I believe that there are heavenly messengers that are sent to direct, aide, and do other things that help the saints do the Lords work here on earth.

Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2011, 10:27:33 AM
Exactly, ww.  He's one of many.

You have made a very sound point WW. I thank for the labor. :bigGrin:

Quote from: micah7:9 on August 14, 2011, 09:22:42 PM
"Only one of the definitions of the word 'angel' is messenger. Another definition of the word 'angel' is angel.  There is such a thing as supernatural angels.

Ok, then what does the word 'angel' is angel mean?   Where and what are "supernatural angels?"

Dont misunderstand me I believe that there are heavenly messengers that are sent to direct, aide, and do other things that help the saints do the Lords work here on earth.

14Are they [angels] not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
--Heb 1

So, you could say everyone on this board is an angel, acting as a ministering spirit to the heirs of salvation.

But there are also supernatural or spiritual beings that are angels, as well, who do the same thing.  That's their job description.

Unless they are in rebellion like Satan's angels--then their point is to try to harm, lie to,  and murder the human race.

Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2011, 09:15:31 PMEnoch says there are 7 archangels.  He names them.

I know. Not everyone trusts the book of Enoch. That's why I limited myself to the Books all on this forum agree with.

 Rev of Christ...7 stars[angels] in His hand......Woman 12 stars in her crown[ about to birth manchild]...there are 12 archangels ..

  seven were appointed to distribute food to the poor/of which Stephen was one.   12 apostels chosen,one a devil,one loses his position

  Matthias appointed.....then Paul as one born out of season.[manchild]

Quote from: sheila on August 14, 2011, 10:38:58 PM
Rev of Christ...7 stars[angels] in His hand......Woman 12 stars in her crown[ about to birth manchild]...there are 12 archangels ..

  seven were appointed to distribute food to the poor/of which Stephen was one.   12 apostels chosen,one a devil,one loses his position

  Matthias appointed.....then Paul as one born out of season.[manchild]

Sheila --do I dare ask who the 12 archangels are?

The seven angels in his hand are the angels of the 7 churches?  Do we know who they are?

Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 14, 2011, 02:00:07 AM


Michael is the archangel, the chief of the angels.
He is described as one of the chief princes and our prince.
When He stands up, things happen. He is described as standing for the children of thy people. So when He stands, there is a time of trouble that results in God's people being delivered, every one who's name if found written in the book.
He contends directly against Satan and the angels in heaven are described as being Michael's angels.

Because Michael does things that we might think God or Jesus should be doing: Is it possible that Michael could be Jesus Christ?

No.

^ACVJude 1
9 But Michael the arch-agent, when he disputed with the devil, contending about the body of Moses, dared not bring a railing judgment, but said, May Lord rebuke thee.

Michael is scared of satan.

^IAVDaniel 8
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Jesus crushes Satan without even lifting a finger.

^ACVMatthew 8
29 And behold, they cried out, saying, What is with us and thee, Jesus, Son of God? Did thou come here before the time to torment us?

This verse isn't about satan but demon but it shows that the demons are also scared of Jesus. My point is that all seem to be scared of Jesus; so Michael, who was scared of satan, can't be Jesus.

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 14, 2011, 10:53:56 PM
^ACVJude 1
9 But Michael the arch-agent, when he disputed with the devil, contending about the body of Moses, dared not bring a railing judgment, but said, May Lord rebuke thee.

Michael is scared of satan.

Based on your above conclusion, the the LORD Himself also is scared of Satan:

Zechariah 3:2;
The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?

Quote from: wwMichael is scared of satan

That was my feeling, too, that Satan is higher up on the hierarchy of celestial beings than Michael, such that Michael dare not rebuke him.

When face to face over Moses body, they don't even seem to be equals.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 14, 2011, 11:07:06 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 14, 2011, 10:53:56 PM
^ACVJude 1
9 But Michael the arch-agent, when he disputed with the devil, contending about the body of Moses, dared not bring a railing judgment, but said, May Lord rebuke thee.

Michael is scared of satan.

Based on your above conclusion, the the LORD Himself also is scared of Satan:

Zechariah 3:2;
The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?

I don't understand that verse....

^ACVZechariah 3
1 And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the agent of LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to be his adversary.
2 And LORD said to Satan, LORD rebuke thee, O Satan. Yea, LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee. Is this not a brand plucked out of the fire?


There are 3 persons present. Joshua, an angel and satan.
But suddenly a 4th person (LORD) starts talking.
Not only that; The LORD tells satan that the LORD will rebuke him. God is talking is talking in 3rd person?

Perhaps the God is speaking trough the angel?

3 And Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and is standing before the messenger.
4 And he answereth and speaketh unto those standing before him, saying: `Turn aside the filthy garments from off him.' And he saith unto him, `See, I have caused thine iniquity to pass away from off thee, so as to clothe thee with costly apparel.'
5 He also said, `Let them set a pure diadem on his head. And they set the pure diadem on his head, and clothe him with garments. And the messenger of Jehovah is standing,
===> Joshua speaks

6 and the agent of LORD doth protest to Joshua, saying:
7 `Thus said Jehovah of Hosts: If in My ways thou dost walk, And if My charge thou dost keep, Then also thou dost judge My house, And also thou dost keep My courts, And I have given to thee conductors among these standing by.
===> Angel speaks about God

Weird....
Verse 1: A group is defined. God is not included.
Verse 2: God is suddenly present and speak in 3rd person (about Himself)
Verse 3 onward: God is totally ignored. They speak about God as if He's not present.

I would expect the verse to be like: 2 And agent of LORD, said to Satan, LORD rebuke thee, O Satan. Yea, LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee. Is this not a brand plucked out of the fire?

Here's another place where the Captain of the LORD's host [from Josh 5] is mentioned.  He is called the Prince of the host here but it is the same word--Sar.  Other translations call him Commander of heaven's army, Commander of the host.  He is being opposed by the little horn. As in Joshua 5, he is not specifically identified by name.



9And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

10And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

11Yea, he magnified himself even to the Prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

--Dan 8

   we have to realize that Father has total control..of when and  in what way Satan is rebuked...and the angels dare not disobey God's order

' Father saved that priveledge for   Jesus Christ to rebuke him[a mere man/lowly son of God] that was much more of an insult to him...

  that Jesus say 'get behind me'  But, when satan  and the demons realized that Jesus had not come to destroy them at that time,they conspired to kill him


   Michael/eagle,Raphael/lion,Phanuel/calfGabriel/man, Jael[crushed Sisera head] Pravuil,Remmiel,Raguel,Zotiel,Saraquel,Uriel[11]

    Raphael.God heals[Luke the physician]...the four  Matthew,Mark,Luke,John  rep Michael,Gabriel,Phanuel and Raphael...the way things are set up down here

  reflect the heavenly set up in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2011, 07:18:41 PM

Only one of the definitions of the word 'angel' is messenger.  Another definition of the word 'angel' is angel.

How does one define a word by using the exact same word?
Doing that explains nothing to the reader.
It can't be done.

Quote from: sheila on August 15, 2011, 12:00:09 AM
   we have to realize that Father has total control..of when and  in what way Satan is rebuked...and the angels dare not disobey God's order

' Father saved that priveledge for   Jesus Christ to rebuke him[a mere man/lowly son of God] that was much more of an insult to him...

  that Jesus say 'get behind me'  But, when satan  and the demons realized that Jesus had not come to destroy them at that time,they conspired to kill him


   Michael/eagle,Raphael/lion,Phanuel/calfGabriel/man, Jael[crushed Sisera head] Pravuil,Remmiel,Raguel,Zotiel,Saraquel,Uriel[11]

    Raphael.God heals[Luke the physician]...the four  Matthew,Mark,Luke,John  rep Michael,Gabriel,Phanuel and Raphael...the way things are set up down here

  reflect the heavenly set up in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Sheila,

With respect to the Lord Jesus Christ should we dare to leave the Bible and reference other books besides the Word of God?

 even the Whole creation testifies to the Glory of God. There is a testimony in the heavens...not just signs of the zodiac

The book of Enoch, again???

Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 15, 2011, 01:07:42 AM



The book of Enoch, again???

I asked because now you have me curious and Sheila knows alot about the angels.  If you could just look aside while we talk... :happygrin:

here's the Hebrew word for angel.

"angel"

H4397
מלאך
mal'âk
mal-awk'
From an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically of God, that is, an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher): - ambassador, angel, king, messenger.

 Molly, I left out Zotiel

  actually the Melkezedek preisthood got it's name from Michael...Prince of Salem come out with bread and wine for Abraham

Quote from: sheila on August 15, 2011, 02:04:48 AM
Molly, I left out Zotiel

  actually the Melkezedek preisthood got it's name from Michael...Prince of Salem come out with bread and wine for Abraham

So you think Michael is Jesus?

Here's an interesting article on Melchizedek--

The Mystery of Melchizedek Solved!
by Herbert W. Armstrong (1892-1986)
1972
FEW MYSTERIES of the Bible have attracted more interest than the mystery of the identity of Melchizedek. Who is he?

You will read in Hebrews 6:19-20 that Jesus Christ, after His resurrection, is High Priest "after the order of Melchizedek." The plainer English of the Moffatt translation words it: ". . with the rank of" that is, equal status with "Melchizedek."

Melchizedek Was God's Priest

First, notice from both Old and New Testaments that the man of mystery, Melchizedek, was a priest of the Most High God. Turn 'low to the account in Genesis 14. During the war between a number of ancient city-states in Canaan and Mesopotamia, Abraham's nephew Lot had been captured. He and his family and goods were carted off.

One of their number escaped and brought the news to Abraham, who armed 318 of his own servants and pursued the invaders to what was later named Dan and beyond. Abraham rescued Lot and his family and returned them safely to the Canaanite cities.

On Abraham's return a man of mystery bursts upon the scene. Abraham was ministered to by Melchizedek.

Here is the account:

"And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was priest of God Most High. And he [Melchizedek] blessed him [Abraham] and said, 'Blessed be Abram by God Most High, maker of heaven and earth; and blessed be God Most High, who has delivered your enemies into your hand!' And Abram gave him [Melchizedek] a tenth of everything" that is, a tithe of all, for a tithe means a tenth (Genesis 14:18-20, RSV).

Notice that Melchizedek was king of Salem. That is the city of Jerusalem. "Salem" comes from the Hebrew word meaning "peace." That would make Melchizedek the "King of Peace" (Hebrews 7:2). The Hebrew name Melchizedek itself means "King of Righteousness" (Hebrews 7:2). The same individual is mentioned in Psalm 110:4. Speaking prophetically of Christ, David stated: "The Eternal hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek." This verse is quoted again in Hebrews 5:6, 10.

Before we turn to Hebrews for the identification of Melchizedek, remember that this mystery figure is a mystery only to us. Abraham and the King of wicked Sodom knew exactly who he was. They must have seen him before. He could not have been a Canaanite, for they were steeped in pagan customs. And furthermore Canaan was a descendant of Ham, whereas God basically chose the descendants of Shem to accomplish His work.

Then who is the mystery man Melchizedek?

One other hint before we proceed. The land of Canaan from ancient time, before the days of Moses, was known among the Gentiles as "the divine land" the Holy land" the land of the place of worship!" Why? Was there someone in the Holy Land who was divine, holy, worthy of worship?

The Mystery Clears

Coming to Hebrews 7, we find Melchizedek identified:

"For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace" (Hebrews 7:1-2).

Since God names individuals what they are, that, then is what this man is.. "King of Righteousness."

Think of it! King of Righteousness.

Jesus Himself said: "There is none good but one, that is, God" (Matthew 19:17). Human self-righteousness is, before God, as filthy rags. None can be righteous but God—or one made righteous by God's power—Christ in a person! And certainly none but One of the Godhead the divine Kingdom of God would be King of Righteousness. Such an expression, applied to any but God, would be blasphemous. Why?

Righteousness is obedience to God's Law. Since God made all laws (James 4:12), He is Supreme Ruler or King. He determines what righteousness is. "All thy commandments are righteousness" (Psalm 119:172). When speaking of one of the points of that Law, Jesus placed Himself superior to it. He is Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28). No man is Lord or King over God's Law. Only God could be! All human beings have sinned and broken that Law of righteousness (Romans 3:23).

To continue with Hebrews 7. Note, too, that this man was King of peace. "Salem" from which Jerusalem was named means "peace." And remember, Jesus is called the Prince of peace! No human being could be King of Peace. Men know not the way of peace. Read Romans 3:10 and 17: "There is none righteous, no, not one.... And the way of peace have they not known."

Observe further: Melchizedek was "without mother, without father, without descent," or as the Phillips translation renders it: "He had no father or mother and no family tree." He was not born as human beings are. He was without father and mother. This does not mean that Melchizedek's records of birth were lost. Without such records human priests could not serve (Ezra 2:62). But here Melchizedek had no genealogy. He must not have been an ordinary mortal. He had no descent or pedigree from another, but was self-existent. Notice Paul's own inspired interpretation of this fact: "Having neither beginning of days, nor end of life" (Hebrews 7:3). Therefore He has always existed from eternity! He was not even created, like angels. But He is now eternally self-existing. And that is true only of GOD deity, not humanity!

Not the Father Nor the Holy Spirit

Yet Melchizedek cannot be God the Father. He was the "priest of that Most High God." Scripture says no man has ever seen the Father (John 1:18, 5:37), but Abraham saw Melchizedek. He cannot be God the Father, but rather, "made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually" (Hebrews 7:3).

And there it is! In the days of Abraham, He was not the Son of God, for He had not yet been born of the virgin Mary but He was made like unto the Son of God in His manifestation to the ancients.

Notice again: Melchizedek, this scripture reveals, abides that is, remains permanently, continually, a priest. God the Father is not the Priest of God, but Christ the Son is! Yet, in the days when the Apostle Paul lived and wrote, shortly after Jesus ascended to heaven as High Priest, the scripture states that even then Melchizedek "abideth "—which means does now abide—"a priest continually." The Moffatt translation states it: "continues to be priest permanently" even while Jesus Christ is High Priest!

And notice that the order of Christ's Priesthood is named after Melchizedek. It is the High Priest's name that is placed upon an order just as Aaron's name was upon the Aaronic priesthood. Thus Melchizedek was then High Priest, in Paul's day, and even now, and He will rule forever! And at the same time Christ was, is today, and shall be forever High Priest!

Are there two High Priests'? No! Impossible! The conclusion is inescapable. Contrary to many cherished man-thought-out ideas, Melchizedek and Christ are one and the same! Some people have stumbled on the statement that Melchizedek has no "end of life." They contend that since Christ died, He had an end of life! If that be true then Christ is still dead! But Christ is not dead. He is alive. It was not possible for Christ to be held by death (Acts 2:24). Melchizedek would never have fulfilled His office of High Priest if He had not died for the sins of the people and risen again. It is the function of the High Priest to lead the way to salvation.

Indeed, Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of our salvation (Hebrews 5:9; 12:2). He is "called of God an high priest after the order of Melchizedek" (Hebrews 5:10).

And no wonder. Melchizedek and Christ are one and the same Person!

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Read more: http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/HWA/k/745/Mystery-Melchizedek-Solved.htm#ixzz1V34yjSeb

 no,Michael is the High preist annointed for war...it is just that the 'Meldezedek" Preisthood symbolizes an eternal one...look up High Preist annointed for war-

  like David didn't build the House coz a man of war..but Soloman did. Also,Judah wasn't the oldest son,either. They all serve and do the 'works' of their Father.

.where-ever He places them Ther is a High preist annointed for war in the Heavens. Gabriel gives meanings of revelation/visions..You can see him

  working with Daniel a lot...and Joseph when he interpreted the dreams of the baker and cup-bearer. Gabriel is always there at an important birth

 

Quote from: sheila on August 15, 2011, 02:04:48 AM
Molly, I left out Zotiel

  actually the Melkezedek preisthood got it's name from Michael...Prince of Salem come out with bread and wine for Abraham

Pronunciation:   mal-kee-tseh'-dek
Origin:   from 04428 and 06664, Greek 3198 Melcisedek                  04428= melek=king      06664=zadok=righteousness
Reference:   TWOT - 1199i
PrtSpch:   noun proper masculine
In Hebrew:   qdu 2
In NET:   Melchizedek 2
In AV:   Melchizedek 2
Count:   2
Definition:   Melchizedek = "my king is Sedek"

1) king of Salem and priest of the Most High God to whom Abram paid
tithe after the battle he fought to free Lot; 'the order of
Melchizedek' the order of the priesthood to which Christ belongs
from 4428 and 6664; king of right; Malki-Tsedek, an early
king in Palestine:-Melchizedek.
see HEBREW for 04428
see HEBREW for 06664
Variations
in Bible:   Melchizedek (NET, KJV, NASB, NIV, NRSV, TEV)

Pronunciation:   me-kaw-ale'
Origin:   from 04310 and (the prefix derivative from) 03588 and 0410, Greek 3413 Micahl
Reference:   -
PrtSpch:   noun proper masculine
In Hebrew:   lakym 10, lakymw 3
In NET:   Michael 13
In AV:   Michael 13
Count:   13
Definition:   Michael = "who is like God"

I don't think Michael and Melchizedek are related etymologically

 you know how there is a High Preist..and the Levitical preisthood? and the Levitical rotates their service...so too, with the angels..they do whatever Father has

  directed...at the time He wants it done. In SOS there is a scripture... before I realized it,my desire set me among the royal chariots of my people, well

  the royal chariots of my people is Jesus speaking of heading out with Michael and the Heavenly hosts to deliver

Sheila, I just remembered there are elect angels, too.  What's that all about?  Is Michael an elect angel?

1 Timothy 5:21
I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE HIGH PRIEST ANOINTED FOR WAR
(Last update 6/23/00)

A subject not mentioned in most Bible studies, is that of the "second High Priest," who was called the (High) Priest Anointed for War. Scripture only gives a brief non-specific mention to this person and his role:

Deuteronomy 20:1-3: When thou goest out to battle against thine enemies, and seest horses, and chariots, and a people more than thou, be not afraid of them: for the LORD thy God is with thee, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. And it shall be, when ye are come nigh unto the battle, that the priest shall approach and speak unto the people, And shall say unto them, Hear, O Israel, ye approach this day unto battle against your enemies: let not your hearts faint, fear not, and do not tremble, neither be ye terrified because of them.

This High Priest did not serve in the Tabernacle/Temple as did the High Priest we read much more about in the Tenakh. Rather, his assignment centered around the caring and preparedness of the men going to battle -- to assure they were prepared physically and spiritually, even sending home those he deemed unfit to fight.

The first Priest anointed for war that we find mention of, was Phineas, the grandson of Aaron:

Midrash Rabbah - Leviticus XX:2 - Elisheba the daughter of Amminadab did not enjoy happiness in the world. True, she witnessed five crowns [attained by her relatives] in one day: her brother-in-law was a king, her brother was a prince, her husband was High Priest, her two sons were both Deputy High Priests, Phinehas her grandson was a Priest anointed for war.

Talmud - Mas. Sotah 43a - Thus it states: And Moses sent them, a thousand of every tribe, to the war, them and Phinehas* — 'them' refers to the Sanhedrin; 'Phinehas' was the [priest] Anointed for Battle;

* Num. XXXI, 6.

Elsewhere in Midrash Rabbah (below) we find reference to the same person, this time called, "the War Messiah." What is interesting here is the footnote, which links the Priest Anointed for War to the coming Messiah. This is especially significant regarding Yeshua, as the first time He came as the Temple High Priest (in order to be the final Yom Kippur sacrifice for sin) whereas He will return the second time as the "War Messiah" to smite His enemies (i.e., Isaiah 59:17 where He wears the "garments of vengeance."):

Midrash Rabbah - The Song of Songs II:33 - MY BELOVED SPOKE AND SAID UNTO ME. He spoke through Elijah and said through the Messiah. What did he say to me? RISE UP, MY LOVE, MY FAIR ONE, AND COME AWAY. R. Azariah said: FOR LO, THE WINTER (HA-SETHAW) IS PAST: this refers to the kingdom of the Cutheans which seduces (mesithah) the world and leads it astray by its falsehoods, as we read, If thy brother, the son of thy mother, entice thee--yesitheka (Deut. XIII, 7). THE RAIN IS OVER AND GONE: this refers to the subjection of Israel. THE FLOWERS APPEAR ON THE EARTH: the conquerors have appeared on the earth. Who are they? R. Berekiah said in the name of R. Isaac: As it is written, And the Lord showed me four craftsmen (Zech. II, 3), namely, Elijah, the Messiah, Melchizedek, and the War Messiah.* THE TIME OF THE ZAMIR IS COME: the time has come for Israel to be delivered; the time has come for uncircumcision to be cut off; the time has come for the kingdom of the Cutheans to expire; the time has come for the kingdom of heaven to be revealed, as it says, And the Lord shall be king over all the earth (ib. XIV, 9). AND THE VOICE OF THE TURTLE IS HEARD IN OUR LAND: Who is this? This is the voice of the Messiah

* Lit.,the priest anointed for war', an expression originally applied to the priest who accompanied the troops. Cf. Suk. 52a, where instead of ' War Messiah ' we have ' Messiah son of Joseph'. The two are probably identical, Messiah the son of Joseph being regarded as the forerunner of the Messiah during the wars that will precede his advent.

The grouping of Elijah, the Messiah, Melchizedek, and the War Messiah together (in the above section), is also interesting as the last three are linked to Yeshua, who was and again will be preceded by Elijah the prophet.

There are distinctions made in Talmud between the two High Priests. As might be expected, the Temple High Priest is given a higher "rank" than his counterpart. However the following section of the Talmud, shows distinctions drawn between the Deputy Temple High Priest and the High Priest Anointed for War, with the former taking precendent regarding issues of defilement, but the latter's life being considered more important (if one had to choose between the two of them) as he has a responsibility to many people:

Talmud - Mas. Nazir 47b - The question was propounded: As between [the High Priest] anointed for a war, and the deputy [High Priest], which is of superior sanctity? Does the [High Priest] anointed for war take precedence, because he is qualified to go to war, or does the deputy take precedence, because he is qualified to perform the Temple service?* — Come and hear: For it has been taught: The only difference between a [High Priest] anointed for war and a deputy is that if they were both walking by the way and encountered a meth mizwah, the [High Priest] anointed for war is to defile himself, but not the deputy. But has it not been taught: A [High Priest] anointed for war takes precedence of a deputy? — Mar Zutra replied: As far as saving his life is concerned, the [High Priest] anointed for war has a superior claim for many [people] depend upon him, but as regards defilement, the deputy is of superior sanctity, as has been taught: R. Hanina b. Antigonus said that the reason the office of deputy to the High Priest was created, was that should any disqualification happen to him [the High Priest], he can enter and minister in his stead.

* But once a priest had been anointed for war, he could no longer take part in the Temple service.

http://www.yashanet.com/studies/revstudy/rev2h.htm

Quote from: Molly on August 15, 2011, 01:54:19 AM
If you could just look aside while we talk...

That's impossible to do when innocently reading the posts.

Please give a visible warning at the beginning of the post so that I can quickly disregard it and not be forced to read it. A simple signal like "XXX" will suffice or anything you prefer.

I find the book of Enoch blasphemy.

 well it is the 'elect' angels that minister to the 'elect'   archangels..now these are the cheifs...and many angels serve under them..to minister..just

  as the apostle's appointed the seven. It is a heavenly preisthood..and actually Father is the Highest Preistn of all..all the archangels do HIS works

Quote from: sheila on August 15, 2011, 03:45:00 AM
well it is the 'elect' angels that minister to the 'elect'   archangels..now these are the cheifs...and many angels serve under them..to minister..just

  as the apostle's appointed the seven. It is a heavenly preisthood..and actually Father is the Highest Preistn of all..all the archangels do HIS works

Hi Sheila,
Would you please provide Bible verses for this?

Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 15, 2011, 03:15:07 AM

Quote from: Molly on August 15, 2011, 01:54:19 AM
If you could just look aside while we talk...

That's impossible to do when innocently reading the posts.

Please give a visible warning at the beginning of the post so that I can quickly disregard it and not be forced to read it. A simple signal like "XXX" will suffice or anything you prefer.

I find the book of Enoch blasphemy.

Ok, will do.

Here's a paper by John Gill who is XXX Calvinist. :winkgrin:

Of The Confirmation Of The Elect Angels,

And The Fall Of The Non-Elect



http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Doctrinal_Divinity/Book_3/book3_05.htm


It's kind of fascinating to read--how he packs so much information into his essay--and the thoughts just flow out like what we would call today, stream of consciousness, by this man highly educated in another time and place.

John Gill (23 November 1697 – 14 October 1771) was an English Baptist pastor, biblical scholar, and theologian who held to a staunch Calvinistic soteriology. Born in Kettering, Northamptonshire, he attended Kettering Grammar School where he mastered the Latin classics and learned Greek by age 11. He continued self-study in everything from logic to Hebrew, his love for the latter remaining throughout his life.

Quote from: Molly on August 15, 2011, 03:49:13 AM

Here's a paper by John Gill who is XXX Calvinist. :winkgrin:

Does he believe in the salvation of all men through our Lord Jesus Christ?

Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 15, 2011, 03:53:10 AM

Quote from: Molly on August 15, 2011, 03:49:13 AM

Here's a paper by John Gill who is XXX Calvinist. :winkgrin:

Does he believe in the salvation of all men through our Lord Jesus Christ?

I believe I said he was a Calvinist.   :happygrin:

But up to that point, his theology is very sound.

Let's face it, the Calvinists just stopped reading before the end of the story.

The word Calvanist means nothing to me.

And if he believes in eternal damnation of God's children then I have no use for him.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 15, 2011, 03:58:02 AM



The word Calvanist means nothing to me.

And if he believes in eternal damnation of God's children then I have no use for him.

That's fine.  I think others here might enjoy it.  You have to kind of gulp it down.  Speed read it.

But, what we see is that there are elect and non elect angels just like there are elect and non elect humans.  Election is a fact, Calvinism or not, and it applies to the spiritual world as much as to the human world it seems.

Very interesting.

Quote from: Molly on August 15, 2011, 04:02:22 AM

But, what we see is that there are elect and non elect angels just like there are elect and non elect humans.

Where in the Holy Bible does it state that there are elect and non elect angels?

Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 15, 2011, 04:17:56 AM

Quote from: Molly on August 15, 2011, 04:02:22 AM

But, what we see is that there are elect and non elect angels just like there are elect and non elect humans.

Where in the Holy Bible does it state that there are elect and non elect angels?

I think she means that if they are elect then they were non elect. Almost like angel means angel. I think.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 15, 2011, 04:17:56 AM

Quote from: Molly on August 15, 2011, 04:02:22 AM

But, what we see is that there are elect and non elect angels just like there are elect and non elect humans.

Where in the Holy Bible does it state that there are elect and non elect angels?

For starters:

1 Timothy 5:21
I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

"elect" [angels]

G1588
ἐκλεκτός
eklektos
ek-lek-tos'
From G1586; select; by implication favorite: - chosen, elect.


But, read the essay, just stay away from the last ten lines or so. :winkgrin:

Thats it.  I Tim 5:21 is the only place I can find that speaks of "elect angels,"(OT or NT) and why could not Paul be telling us as YLT reads

1Ti 5:21  I testify fully, before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the choice messengers, that these things thou mayest keep, without forejudging, doing nothing by partiality.

Why could he not be instructing the other Apsotles and disciples? Or for that matter you and I, we are elect, at least I pray that is so.
Why must we read angels?

I am conjuring, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the chosen messengers, that you should guard these things, apart from prejudice,  (CLV)
I testify fully, before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the choice messengers, that these things thou mayest keep, without forejudging, doing nothing by partiality. (YLT)

There are many more translations that do not use the word elect.




I read it as referring to the Divine Word of God gone forth in men bearing His Name. 

 :HeartThrob:  Again, we are of One Spirit, Micah.  :HeartThrob:

Many are called but few are chosen [eklektos].--Mat 22

 
New International Version (©1984)
I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.

English Standard Version (©2001)
In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.

International Standard Version (©2008)
With God as my witness, as well as the Messiah Jesus and the chosen angels, I solemnly call on you to carry out these instructions without prejudice, doing nothing on the basis of partiality.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
I solemnly call on you in the sight of God, Christ Jesus, and the chosen angels to be impartial when you follow what I've told you. Never play favorites.

King James Bible
I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

American King James Version
I charge you before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that you observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

American Standard Version
I charge thee in the sight of God, and Christ Jesus, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing by partiality.

Bible in Basic English
I give you orders before God and Christ Jesus and the angels of God's selection, to keep these orders without giving thought to one side more than another.

Douay-Rheims Bible
I charge thee before God, and Christ Jesus, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing by declining to either side.

Darby Bible Translation
I testify before God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, that thou keep these things without prejudice, doing nothing by favour.

English Revised Version
I charge thee in the sight of God, and Christ Jesus, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing by partiality.

Webster's Bible Translation
I charge thee before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

Weymouth New Testament
I solemnly call upon you, in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels, to carry out these instructions of mine without prejudice, and to do nothing from partiality.

World English Bible
I command you in the sight of God, and Christ Jesus, and the chosen angels,[ that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing by partiality.

Quote from: Molly on August 15, 2011, 05:25:23 AM
World English Bible
I command you in the sight of God, and Christ Jesus, and the chosen angels,[ that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing by partiality.

Last but not least.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 15, 2011, 05:29:46 AM

Quote from: Molly on August 15, 2011, 05:25:23 AM
World English Bible
I command you in the sight of God, and Christ Jesus, and the chosen angels,[ that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing by partiality.

Last but not least.

Chosen means elect.  Many are called but few are chosen[eklektos]. 

Do you not believe in election for men, either? 

I read it as referring to the Divine Word of God gone forth in men bearing His Name. 

I guess all them translations still use the word "hell" and "forever and everlasting" you know same o same o. Why, IF the word
ANGEL is a messenger ambassador, pastor and of course angel(which is how one says the word messenger in Gk) do those translations like to keep the human imagination continuing to accept how man has portrayed angels as winged beings? I mean there are people who worship that kind of image. I dont think it is a healthy thing to keep up. But thats just me. And if they dont continue to use  the words "hell" and "forever" and "everlasting" then they are really poor translations, for they just want to change what they have a desire to.

Quote from: Micah..and of course angel(which is how one says the word messenger in Gk)

This is how one says the word 'messenger' in Greek and also the word 'angel.'

"angel"

G32
ἄγγελος
aggelos
ang'-el-os
From ἀγγέλλω aggellō (probably derived from G71; compare G34; to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication a pastor: - angel, messenger.


We are not to worship angels, but they do in fact exist, and they are all over our Holy Bible.

Wings!


Each of these living beings had six wings, and their wings were covered all over with eyes, inside and out. Day after day and night after night they keep on saying, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God, the Almighty--the one who always was, who is, and who is still to come."
--Rev 4:8

Isaiah 6:2 Above him were seraphs, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying.

Ezekiel 10:12 Their entire bodies, including their backs their hands and their wings, were completely full of eyes, as were their four wheels.

Molly,
You have said in a prior post that angels look like men but in your above description I do not recognize any man.

Surely, both can not be correct.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 15, 2011, 04:11:04 PM



Molly,
You have said in a prior post that angels look like men but in your above description I do not recognize any man.

Surely, both can not be correct.

Micah was saying he didn't know where people got the idea of angels with wings, so I was just showing where the idea came from, the Bible.

Most of the angels in the Bible are described as [supernatural] men.

All the angels I have ever seen look like men.  They are very ordinary looking. Commanding respect, but not frightening at all.   But, there was one incident with the 3 muggers who got within a foot of me, and then they looked up over my head and saw something big standing behind me that filled them with fear.  Their jaws dropped, they lifted their hands in the air, and slowly backed away.  Something was standing behind me that just the sight of it brought their plans to a screeching halt.

I think that might have been an angel with wings they saw because the fear in their eyes was full of respect and awe.  I could almost see the angel reflected in their eyes! :happygrin:

Quote from: Molly on August 15, 2011, 07:24:38 AM
Wings!


Each of these living beings had six wings, and their wings were covered all over with eyes, inside and out. Day after day and night after night they keep on saying, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God, the Almighty--the one who always was, who is, and who is still to come."
--Rev 4:8

Isaiah 6:2 Above him were seraphs, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying.

Ezekiel 10:12 Their entire bodies, including their backs their hands and their wings, were completely full of eyes, as were their four wheels.

Missed the word angel in the above

Quote from: micah7:9 on August 15, 2011, 07:21:23 PM

Quote from: Molly on August 15, 2011, 07:24:38 AM
Wings!


Each of these living beings had six wings, and their wings were covered all over with eyes, inside and out. Day after day and night after night they keep on saying, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God, the Almighty--the one who always was, who is, and who is still to come."
--Rev 4:8

Isaiah 6:2 Above him were seraphs, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying.

Ezekiel 10:12 Their entire bodies, including their backs their hands and their wings, were completely full of eyes, as were their four wheels.

Missed the word angel in the above

I missed the white ones.

Revelation 14:6
And I saw another angel flying through the sky, carrying the eternal Good News to proclaim to the people who belong to this world—to every nation, tribe, language, and people

17The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.

--Psa 68

Revelation 8:13
And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Flying is no proof of wings.

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 15, 2011, 10:11:06 PM
Flying is no proof of wings.

Men don't fly.

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 15, 2011, 10:11:06 PM
Flying is no proof of wings.

Thank you :bigGrin:

Those who are with us,are more than those who are with them. Then the Lord opened the servants eyes and he looked and saw

the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha 2 kings ch 6

No mention of angels there either, Sheila.

Quote from: sheila on August 15, 2011, 11:15:26 PM
Those who are with us,are more than those who are with them. Then the Lord opened the servants eyes and he looked and saw

the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha 2 kings ch 6

15And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do?

16And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.

17And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

18And when they came down to him, Elisha prayed unto the LORD, and said, Smite this people, I pray thee, with blindness. And he smote them with blindness according to the word of Elisha.

--2 Kings 6

No mention of angels there either.

Guardian angels:

: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee:
--Ex 32:34


Psalm 91:11  "For he [God] will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways."


Matthew 18:10
10Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 18:10;
Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.


I read that as even the young in Christ receive revelation from God.

Psa 91:11 For He shall enjoin His messengers concerning you, To keep you in all your ways."
Mat 18:10  `Beware! --ye may not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you, that their messengers in the heavens do always behold the face of my Father who is in the heavens,

I am not denying the power that are in the heavens, I am not denying that God will use His messengers in any form He desires. It is just the religious myth that surrounds "angels" as more than God's messengers to direct, lead, and even drive those who He desires to lead that troubles me. When we read messengers I believe it is just as powerful even more that angels and what man through religion has understood a angel to be. :2c:

Quote from: micah7:9 on August 16, 2011, 12:59:40 AM
Psa 91:11 For He shall enjoin His messengers concerning you, To keep you in all your ways."
Mat 18:10  `Beware! --ye may not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you, that their messengers in the heavens do always behold the face of my Father who is in the heavens,

I am not denying the power that are in the heavens, I am not denying that God will use His messengers in any form He desires. It is just the religious myth that surrounds "angels" as more than God's messengers to direct, lead, and even drive those who He desires to lead that troubles me. When we read messengers I believe it is just as powerful even more that angels and what man through religion has understood a angel to be. :2c:

There is no myth around angels. Some people say God is a myth.  You like to use the word 'messenger' instead of angel because you are trying to diminish their great power, as if they are just errand boys.  Angels do in fact have great power which they use on our behalf.  We Christians are given powerful guardian angels by God.  They protect, warn, and minister to us. 

But, maybe you have to be humble, needy, desperate, and poor to experience the pleasure of angels, and most don't want to go there.  They don't want to feel so weak that they have to depend on divine intercession.  But, it is God's pleasure to provide it for those who love him and are called according to his purpose.

9Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;

10There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.

11For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

12They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.

--Psa 91


"See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared." [Ex 23:20]

"But, maybe you have to be humble, needy, desperate, and poor...." Molly

Such a silly thing to say. Do you really believe that His messengers do not come to a successful family? That one has to be poor, humble and needy for Him to send His messengers?
Yes I thank the Lord Jesus everyday I have and I am very sure without going into any length, that I have been humble and humbled, needy to the point of desperation, wondering if I will draw another breath, where will my childrens next meal come from, for more than half of my 66 years. I have been helped and aided by the The Lord through the wind, water, men, woman, preachers, friends, trees, through car accidents, tornadoes, ice storms and I was given the knowledge full that it was the Hand of God, I KNEW then at the time and some times later that God used these methods as messengers. I have also had His messengers show me the way when I had the means to meet all my families needs, with money in the bank.
I know how powerful and of what great might His messengers have.
But dont tell me there is no myth about angels, if there is not a myth, why do MEN represent angels as how they represented them to children, teens, and adults in RELIGION. I am very greatfull there is Michael in the heavens, I am awed by the appearing of Gabriel, as well as all His messengers through out the OT.

Jesus the lowly human versus archangel Michael the great prince of Israel.....VS Satan. 

Do Jesus and Michael sound like the same person?


But even Michael, one of the mightiest of the angels, did not dare accuse the devil of blasphemy, but simply said, "The Lord rebuke you!" (This took place when Michael was arguing with the devil about Moses' body.)
Jude 1:9


"Get out of here, Satan," Jesus told him. "For the Scriptures say, 'You must worship the LORD your God and serve only him.'"
--Mat 4:10

Molly,
I addressed that already.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 16, 2011, 06:41:35 AM


Molly,
I addressed that already.

you did?  Why does Jesus rebuke Satan, but archangel Michael dares not rebuke Satan?

The scripture tells us Michael dares not--why is that?

But, Jesus, in the form of a man, has no problem telling Satan to get lost--why is that?

Michael:

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke you.
Jude 1:9


Jesus:

You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.



Why did Michael become so bold when he became the man Jesus, such that he now dares to bring a railing accusation against Satan?  Calling Satan a murderer, a liar, the father of lies?  Where did that boldness come from?

Why the change in character?

Quote from: Molly on August 16, 2011, 08:08:43 AM
Michael:

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke you.
Jude 1:9


Jesus:

You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Sounds like 2 different individuals being described to me.

Quote from: Molly on August 15, 2011, 10:18:40 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 15, 2011, 10:11:06 PM
Flying is no proof of wings.

Men don't fly.

Elephants don't fly either. Does that prove they are fish?
I bet Father can fly too. Is He an angel? Is He a plane?

Assume Scripture states: Eddy Elephant has 4 legs, Freddy Fish has no legs and Benny Bird has 2 legs and 2 wings.
Later someone states: I saw an animal without wings? We do know who it was not. But we don't know who it was.
A legged animal came to me. Who was it. (it wasn't Freddy Fish)

So my point is if an angel looks like a man with wings that doesn't mean everything with wings is an angel. Neither everything that looks like a man or can fly.
Only if it looks like a man and has wings you can assume it's an angel.
(and doesn't exclude the possibility of angels without wings)
:2c:

I would like some feedback on reply #94

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 16, 2011, 08:57:44 AM

Quote from: Molly on August 15, 2011, 10:18:40 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 15, 2011, 10:11:06 PM
Flying is no proof of wings.

Men don't fly.

Elephants don't fly either. Does that prove they are fish?
I bet Father can fly too. Is He an angel? Is He a plane?

Assume Scripture states: Eddy Elephant has 4 legs, Freddy Fish has no legs and Benny Bird has 2 legs and 2 wings.
Later someone states: I saw an animal without wings? We do know who it was not. But we don't know who it was.
A legged animal came to me. Who was it. (it wasn't Freddy Fish)

So my point is if an angel looks like a man with wings that doesn't mean everything with wings is an angel. Neither everything that looks like a man or can fly.
Only if it looks like a man and has wings you can assume it's an angel.
(and doesn't exclude the possibility of angels without wings)
:2c:

My point was--if someone says, "I saw an angel flying through the sky", it's not unreasonable to picture a man with wings.  It might not fit your scientific idea of proof, but to say that person is a myth believer is just unfair.  In fact, I doubt that anyone would picture that as superman or an elephant or a talking bird--that would be unreasonable.

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 16, 2011, 09:07:36 AM
I would like some feedback on reply #94

QuoteI would expect the verse to be like: 2 And agent of LORD, said to Satan, LORD rebuke thee, O Satan. Yea, LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee. Is this not a brand plucked out of the fire?

And the LORD said to Satan, "I, the LORD, reject your accusations, Satan. Yes, the LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebukes you. This man is like a burning stick that has been snatched from the fire."
Zech 3:2

It's pretty clear it's the LORD who is speaking here.  And, he's also later speaking of himself in the third person.  This goes back to two YHWH's thread--Jesus in the OT. 

 evidently the Lord did rebuke satan,for the change of garments came to Joshua regardless of the adversaries objection.  It's all about the spirit,

  whether a vessel of an angel,or man. whether with wings,or form of man. Jesus Christ was given power and authority,both in heaven and earth.

   Angels[supernatural] wait on the Lord,also   You can also expect Michael and the angels to be present when your change of garment comes..

   for the adversary does resist the will of God[it is his function]

   actually,the mercy seat is above wings...why don't you all call Father to task as to why HE instructed it be made so.......look to the scriptures regarding wings

   shelter under His wings,like a hen gathers chicks under wings,like wings sheathed. Protection/even divine is what wings symbolize.....the VERY POWER OF GOD

  [spirit] IS SYMBOLIZED IN WINGS...also...the abomination is on a wing of the temple/singnaling another spirit in operation/covering


   No, Michael the archangel is not Jesus Christ...but I TELL YOU....GOD IS IN ALL HIS ANGELS,AND HIS SON ALSO...FOR THEY ARE ONE AND ALL DO

  THE WILL OF THE FATHER. IT IS ALWAYS GOD/FATHER DOING THE WORKS IN ALL HIS CREATURES,whether,a fish that swallows Jonah,an ass that rebukes,

  a lion whose mouth is shut,THE SON LAYING DOWN HIS LIFE,THE ANGEL THAT SLAYS 185,000 Assyrians,...IT IS ALL HIM....Now Father has  had

  HIS OWN DIVINE PLAN..and revealed it throughout the scriptures,whenever and however,and using whatever He please to declare it

   what is this Holy spirit in the bodily form of a dove[a winged creature] that remained upon Jesus Christ....and by this sign..John declared...

   Him that takes away the sin of the world.

When Joshua meets the Sar of the LORD's host, Joshua asks him --are you for us or for our enemies?

Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, "Are you for us or for our enemies?"
--Josh 5:13

Joshua wants to identify this man.  Does the man with the drawn sword say I am the prince of Israel, I am on your side?  NO he does not.  He says he is neither for Joshua or for his enemies, 'I am the Commander of the LORD's host'--then Joshua immediately knows who he is and falls down and worships him.

When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing before him with his drawn sword in his hand. And Joshua went to him and said to him, "Are you for us, or for our adversaries?"
Josh 5:13

"Neither one," he replied. "I am the commander of the LORD's army." At this, Joshua fell with his face to the ground in reverence. "I am at your command," Joshua said. "What do you want your servant to do?"
--Joshua 5:14


If this were Michael, he would have told Joshua he was there for Israel.  Instead he says he is neither for Israel or for her enemies. Neither should Joshua have worshipped him unless he was divinity.

So this is a divine man who is for everyone, who is Prince of the LORD's host,  and deserves to be worshipped--who else could this be?

PS Joshua calls him, Adonai.

 Luke 7;8...the centurion

    For I myself am a man under authority,with soldiers under me,I tell this one,'Go' and he goes,"I tell that one 'come' and he comes,I say to my servant,'Do this" and he

     does it   When Jesus heard this He was amazed at him,and turning to the crowd following him,he said"I TELL YOU I HAVE NOT FOUND SUCH GREAT A FAITH

           EVEN IN ISRAEL"

1 Chron 28;18

    He also gave him the PLAN for the CHARIOT,THAT IS,....THE CHERUBIM OF GOD THAT SPREAD THEIR WINGS AND SHELTER THE ARK

   OF THE COVENANT OF THE LORD.

   ALL THIS,David said,I HAVE IN WRITING FROM THE HAND OF THE LORD UPON ME,AND HE GAVE ME UNDERSTANDING IN ALL

  THE DETAILS OF THE PLAN

The host of the LORD is made up of God's holy angels [and other celestial beings] and the saints.  Thus both Joshua and Michael would be part of the host of the LORD.


Angels are talked about in military terms:

An encampment of angels:

32:1 So Jacob went on his way and the angels of God1 met him. 32:2 When Jacob saw them, he exclaimed,2 "This is the camp of God!"


A heavenly army:

2:13 Suddenly40 a vast, heavenly army41 appeared with the angel, praising God and saying,
2:14 "Glory42 to God in the highest,

Luke 2:13



There is a command structure and hierarchy

13:41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather from his kingdom everything that causes sin as well as all lawbreakers.

The one at the top would command both angels and men.



They use combat tactics:

19:12 His troops32 advance together;

they throw up33 a siege ramp against me,

and they camp around my tent.

Job 19



12:7 Then20 war broke out in heaven: Michael21 and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. [Rev 12]



God is depicted as the God of the hosts,  LORD God of hosts, God of hosts, Lord of hosts.  Thus, God is above all.

 just as flight of the air has wings.[birds].so too, the spirit bears us on wings...I ask you, would not the cloven tongues of fire resemble wings of the cherubim/chariot

above the heads of those that receive the Holy spirit...and does not this symbolize those borne along of spirit. John 3;8

   Lev 1;14-17  if the offering to the Lord is a burnt offering of birds,he is to offer a dove or a young pigeon.......

       he shall TEAR IT OPEN[cleave] BY THE WINGS,NOT SEVERING IT COMPLETELY....AND THEN THE PREIST SHALL BURN IT ON THE WOOD

   THAT IS ON THE FIRE OF THE ALTAR. IT IS A BURNT OFFERING,AN OFFERING MADE BY FIRE,AN AROMA PLEASING TO GOD

Young's Literal Translation
And the Prince of Jehovah's host saith unto Joshua, 'Cast off thy shoe from off thy foot, for the place on which thou art standing is holy;' and Joshua doth so; [Josh 5:15]

Now the gates of Jericho were tightly shut because the people were afraid of the Israelites. No one was allowed to go out or in.[Josh 6:1]

The LORD said to Joshua, "See, I have given Jericho into your hand, with its king and the valiant warriors.[Josh 6:2]



Once Joshua takes off his shoes because he is standing on holy ground, we see that suddenly it is the LORD[YHVH] who is talking to him.  Again, this must mean the Prince of the LORD's hosts is the LORD himself.  The LORD tells Joshua he has won the battle before it is even fought because He has given him the victory.


Then he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel saying, 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the LORD of hosts.
[Zech 4:6]

 :cloud9: Just passing thru briefly and this caught my eye........for what it's worth.......I have heard Gabrie speak, and he identified himself to me this way, "I am Gabriel, the archangel of God."

And we have wings (in the Spirit), because I have felt wings distinctly unfold and cover me when in worship of Him, much to my initial shock.  :mshock:

And to throw another wrench into the discussion  :laughing7:, I believe we are angels, though lowered.........as we were one with Him from the foundation of the world, and He said we WOULD BE as the angels (IMO, AGAIN). I think we're man in the flesh, but angels in the Spirit, just as He was lowered a little lower than the angels = into flesh, and we are His body. My  :2c:

Miss you all......Blessings......Card  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 14, 2011, 11:49:39 PM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 14, 2011, 11:07:06 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 14, 2011, 10:53:56 PM
^ACVJude 1
9 But Michael the arch-agent, when he disputed with the devil, contending about the body of Moses, dared not bring a railing judgment, but said, May Lord rebuke thee.

Michael is scared of satan.

Based on your above conclusion, the the LORD Himself also is scared of Satan:

Zechariah 3:2;
The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?

I don't understand that verse....

^ACVZechariah 3
1 And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the agent of LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to be his adversary.
2 And LORD said to Satan, LORD rebuke thee, O Satan. Yea, LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee. Is this not a brand plucked out of the fire?


There are 3 persons present. Joshua, an angel and satan.
But suddenly a 4th person (LORD) starts talking.
Not only that; The LORD tells satan that the LORD will rebuke him. God is talking is talking in 3rd person?

Perhaps the God is speaking trough the angel?

3 And Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and is standing before the messenger.
4 And he answereth and speaketh unto those standing before him, saying: `Turn aside the filthy garments from off him.' And he saith unto him, `See, I have caused thine iniquity to pass away from off thee, so as to clothe thee with costly apparel.'
5 He also said, `Let them set a pure diadem on his head. And they set the pure diadem on his head, and clothe him with garments. And the messenger of Jehovah is standing,
===> Joshua speaks

6 and the agent of LORD doth protest to Joshua, saying:
7 `Thus said Jehovah of Hosts: If in My ways thou dost walk, And if My charge thou dost keep, Then also thou dost judge My house, And also thou dost keep My courts, And I have given to thee conductors among these standing by.
===> Angel speaks about God

Weird....
Verse 1: A group is defined. God is not included.
Verse 2: God is suddenly present and speak in 3rd person (about Himself)
Verse 3 onward: God is totally ignored. They speak about God as if He's not present.

I would expect the verse to be like: 2 And agent of LORD, said to Satan, LORD rebuke thee, O Satan. Yea, LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee. Is this not a brand plucked out of the fire?

Just now I found an article that seems to explain what's going on in that verse.


Digression 3: God Manifestation
What follows will not be easy to grasp fully at first reading, but the importance of the subject will become more evident as your studies proceed. We include it at this point so that you will leave this Study having fully considered the Bible's basic revelation about God Himself.

The name of God can be carried by anyone through whom He chooses to 'manifest' or reveal Himself. So men and Angels as well as Jesus can carry God's Name. This is a vital principle which opens up so much of the Bible to us. A son especially may carry the name of his father; he has certain similarities with his father, he may have the same first name - but he is not one and the same person as the father. In the same way a representative of a company may speak on behalf of the company; he may telephone someone on business and say, 'Hello, this is Unilever here'; he is not Mr. Unilever, but he carries their name because he is working on their behalf. And so it was with Jesus.

Angels Carrying God's Name
We are told in Exodus 23:20,21 that God told the people of Israel that an Angel would go ahead of them; "My Name is in Him", they were told. The personal name of God is 'Yahweh'. So the Angel carried the name of Yahweh, and could thus be called 'Yahweh', or 'The LORD', in small capitals, as the word 'Yahweh' is translated in the N.I.V. and A.V. We are told in Ex.33:20 that no man can see the face of God and live; but in Ex.33:11 we read that "The LORD (Yahweh) spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend" - i.e. in a relaxed, friendly way. It could not have been the LORD, Yahweh, Himself in person, who spoke to Moses face to face, because no man can see God Himself. It was the Angel who carried God's Name who did so; and so we read of the LORD speaking face to face with Moses when it was actually an Angel who did so (Acts 7:30-33).

There are many other examples of the words 'God' and 'LORD' referring to the Angels as opposed to God Himself. One clear example is Gen.1:26 "And God (the Angels) said, Let us make man in our image".

Men With God's Name
One of the passages which is most helpful in demonstrating all this is John 10:34-36. Here the Jews made the mistake which many so-called 'Christians' do today. They thought that Jesus was saying he was God Himself. Jesus corrected them by saying, "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If He called them 'gods'...how say ye of (me)...'Thou blasphemest' because I said, I am the son of God?'" Jesus is really saying 'In the Old Testament men are called 'gods'; I am only saying I am the Son of God; so why are you getting so upset?' Jesus is actually quoting from Psalm 82, where the judges of Israel were called 'gods'.

As has been shown, the full name of God in Hebrew is 'Yahweh Elohim'- meaning 'I will be revealed in a group of mighty ones'. The true believers are those many mighty ones in a limited sense in this life, and will be so more fully in the Kingdom. This is all beautifully shown by a comparison of Is.64:4 and 1 Cor. 2:9. "Men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside Thee, what He hath prepared for him that waiteth for him". Paul quotes this in 1 Cor.2:9,10: "It is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him. But God hath revealed them unto us by His Spirit". The passage in Is.64 says that no one except God can understand the things He has prepared for the believers; but 1 Cor.2:10 says that those things have been revealed to us; so we are in a sense 'God': not God Himself in person, but a manifestation of God as a result of having been baptized into His name and knowing the Truth.

Jesus And The Name Of God
It is not surprising that Jesus, as the Son of God and His supreme manifestation to men, should also carry God's Name. He could say "I am come in my Father's Name" (John 5:43). Because of his obedience, Jesus ascended to Heaven and God "gave him a Name which is above every name"- the name of Yahweh, of God Himself (Phil.2:9). So this is why we read Jesus saying in Rev.3:12, "I will write upon him (the believer) the name of my God...and I will write upon him my new name". At the judgment Jesus will give us God's Name; we then will fully carry the name of God. He calls this name, "My New Name". Remember, Jesus was giving the book of Revelation some years after his ascension into Heaven and being given God's name, as explained in Phil.2:9. So he can call God's name "My new name"; the name he had recently been given. We can now properly understand Isaiah 9:6, where concerning Jesus we are told, "His Name (note that) shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, the mighty God, the everlasting Father...". This is a prophecy that Jesus would carry all the names of God - that he would be the total manifestation or revelation of God to us. It was in this sense that he was called 'Emmanuel', meaning, 'God is with us', although He personally was not God.

http://biblebasicsonline.com/english/Study01God/D03GodManifestation.html
Yeah I know... two very controverial statements in that article  :winkgrin: