Died In My Stead?

[Beloved Servant]

The Lord desired a place to plant seed.

[Molly]

got it

what about the raise him up on the last day verse?

Clearly, when we die, our bodies are no longer being used as our home.  2Cor 5 tells us at that point God gives us an eternal home in heaven.

But, at some point our bodies will be redeemed as glorified bodies.  He is saving us from the inside out.  Spirit, then soul, then body.  The redemption of the body is the last thing to happen.

I was thinking the same thing as RHM was about "raising up at the last day". I believe the Baptist believe the same as you do. They believe that we go on to heaven or hell when we die, later at Jesus coming our bodies are raised up and we are united with our bodies.

I do believe there was a change in death and all things after the crucifixion and resurrection but this one thing about going on to heaven when we die is hard for me to see. I just don't see the purpose of reuniting our spirit with our bodies that have decayed.

Another question: What about when Jesus said "all that are in the graves will hear his voice and come forth"?  This doesn't sound like they were already in heaven.

CHB

The Baptists believe the same?  That's cool.  Baptists are hard to find where I live.

The change in death after the resurrection is that those who believe in him now have eternal life.  Or think of it as perpetual life, one of the definitions of aionios.  That is, the spirit and soul leave the earthly body and continue living.

The purpose of reuniting with our bodies [which will be in a glorified form] is because it is part of the deal.  We are being redeemed spirit, soul, and body.  If that sounds silly, we can now see that a body can be cloned from one cell.  The Book of life could just be a DNA database. 30 years ago I could not have said those words.  Nobody would have understood what I was talking about.

Why do we wait in heaven for this?  Because the Christ is a hologram.  We are waiting for each member to be perfected until, like lightning shines from the east to the west,  all appear at once.

And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

--Heb 11

[Molly]

Could you clarify with book and verse your statement "Paul says if we lose this body, God has a body waiting for us in heaven."

That's what Paul is saying in 2Cor 5.

1For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, 3if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. 4For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

6So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him.

[Beloved Servant]

that they without us should not be made perfect.

The Great Cloud!

[Molly]

that they without us should not be made perfect.

The Great Cloud!

:Sparkletooth:

[micah7:9]

Could you clarify with book and verse your statement "Paul says if we lose this body, God has a body waiting for us in heaven."

That's what Paul is saying in 2Cor 5.

1For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, 3if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. 4For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

6So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him.

Here we go again, you say that when we die we go to heaven that means I must remove these verses from my Bible as well.

1Co 15:12  But if Christ is preached as having risen from the dead, how is it that some of you say that there is no such thing as a resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13  If there is no such thing as a resurrection of the dead, then Christ Himself has not risen to life.
1Co 15:14  And if Christ has not risen, it follows that what we preach is a delusion, and that your faith also is a delusion.
1Co 15:15  Nay more, we are actually being discovered to be bearing false witness about God, because we have testified that God raised Christ to life, whom He did not raise, if in reality none of the dead are raised.
1Co 15:16 For if none of the dead are raised to life, then Christ has not risen;
1Co 15:17  and if Christ has not risen, your faith is a vain thing--you are still in your sins.

[Molly]

Here we go again, you say that when we die we go to heaven that means I must remove these verses from my Bible as well.

I didn't invent that we go to heaven when THE EARTHLY BODY DIES.  Paul says that.  Paul also said he went to heaven when he was alive.

You don't have to remove any scriptures from your Bible.  Just understand them.  But, until we can understand something, maybe it's better to lay it aside for a while.

[sheila]

 Paul spoke of a 'better' resurrection.....the one into incorruption and immortality. heaven...that flesh was raised up....also was evidenced by Lazarus and many...

   they expierenced a secound death...only to portray the 'real' twice dead in the scriptures

[micah7:9]

Here we go again, you say that when we die we go to heaven that means I must remove these verses from my Bible as well.

I didn't invent that we go to heaven when THE EARTHLY BODY DIES.  Paul says that.  Paul also said he went to heaven when he was alive.

You don't have to remove any scriptures from your Bible.  Just understand them.  But, until we can understand something, maybe it's better to lay it aside for a while.

"I didn't invent that we go to heaven when THE EARTHLY BODY DIES.  Paul says that.  Paul also said he went to heaven when he was alive." 
Paul said not such things.


2Co 12:2  I have known a man in Christ, fourteen years ago--whether in the body I have not known, whether out of the body I have not known, God hath known--such an one being caught away unto the third heaven;

Paul said he was caught up/away, it was a vision of revelation. He did not go anywhere.

At least he didn't know "whether in the body I have not known, whether out of the body I have not known,"

When Peter, John,  James saw the transfiguration, they did not go anywhere, it was a vision. You speak as though heaven was a place or physical location.
And not one place in the Bible can I find glorified connected to bodies.

Understanding what the Bible teaches is different from what religion prints.

[Molly]

Paul said not such things.

So why don't you explain what you think he's saying in 2Cor 5.   Take the scripture and explain what he is saying from it.

Paul said he was caught up/away, it was a vision of revelation. He did not go anywhere.

Paul says he was 'caught up' to the third heaven.  He says he doesn't know whether he was in the body or out of the body.  He says he was caught up to Paradise and heard unspeakable words which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

NOWHERE does Paul say this was a 'vision.'  Harpazo is the rapture word.  It means to be seized.

"caught up" [to the third heaven]
G726
ἁρπάζω
harpazō
har-pad'-zo
From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).


If you want to treat these things as visions instead of the real thing, why don't we just give it up and smoke dope and have our own visions.

And not one place in the Bible can I find glorified connected to bodies.

What do you think it will mean to be glorified?  What do think it will mean to be like him?  You think we will be in these decaying bodies and be called glorified? or be called 'like him'? 

We have been justified by his blood and now we are on a process that won't stop until it is completed.



20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

--Phil 3

[micah7:9]

You tell me what a glorified body is
Thayer Definition:
1) to think, suppose, be of opinion
2) to praise, extol, magnify, celebrate
3) to honour, do honour to, hold in honour
4) to make glorious, adorn with lustre, clothe with splendour
4a) to impart glory to something, render it excellent
4b) to make renowned, render illustrious
4b1) to cause the dignity and worth of some person or thing to become manifest and acknowledged
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G1391
Citing in TDNT: 2:253, 178
G1392
δοξάζω
doxazō
dox-ad'-zo
From G1391; to render (or esteem) glorious (in a wide application): - (make) glorify (-ious), full of (have) glory, honour, magnify.
G1391
δόξα
doxa
dox'-ah
From the base of G1380; glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literally or figuratively, objectively or subjectively): - dignity, glory (-ious), honour, praise, worship.

[Molly]

Our lowly bodies are going to be transformed into his glorious body--so why don't you tell me what his glorious [post resurrection or transfiguration] body is like?  There are plenty of descriptions of it in the Bible.

"transform"

G3345
μετασχηματίζω
metaschēmatizō
met-askh-ay-mat-id'-zo
From G3326 and a derivative of G4976; to transfigure or disguise; figuratively to apply (by accommodation): - transfer, transform (self).

[micah7:9]

"If you want to treat these things as visions instead of the real thing, why don't we just give it up and smoke dope and have our own visions." Molly

I really dont believe that you meant that. So I will over look it, but you "say" all these things like they were literal and phyisical happenings. I do not believe anything has changed with Paul or any of the writers of the NT, they still teach what Jesus taught, His words are their words, and Jesus' words are SPIRIT and they are LIFE.
Joh 6:63  the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life;

And I believe this with all my heart and mind  20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

--Phil 3
Peace and Love Through Jesus :HeartThrob:

[micah7:9]

Our lowly bodies are going to be transformed into his glorious body--so why don't you tell me what his glorious [post resurrection or transfiguration] body is like?  There are plenty of descriptions of it in the Bible.

"transform"

G3345
μετασχηματίζω
metaschēmatizō
met-askh-ay-mat-id'-zo
From G3326 and a derivative of G4976; to transfigure or disguise; figuratively to apply (by accommodation): - transfer, transform (self).

Amen I believe that! I Know that :grin:

[Molly]

Our lowly bodies are going to be transformed into his glorious body--so why don't you tell me what his glorious [post resurrection or transfiguration] body is like?  There are plenty of descriptions of it in the Bible.

"transform"

G3345
μετασχηματίζω
metaschēmatizō
met-askh-ay-mat-id'-zo
From G3326 and a derivative of G4976; to transfigure or disguise; figuratively to apply (by accommodation): - transfer, transform (self).

Amen I believe that! I Know that :grin:

Then why did you say there is nothing about glorified bodies in the Bible?

And not one place in the Bible can I find glorified connected to bodies.

[micah7:9]

Our lowly bodies are going to be transformed into his glorious body--so why don't you tell me what his glorious [post resurrection or transfiguration] body is like?  There are plenty of descriptions of it in the Bible.

"transform"

G3345
μετασχηματίζω
metaschēmatizō
met-askh-ay-mat-id'-zo
From G3326 and a derivative of G4976; to transfigure or disguise; figuratively to apply (by accommodation): - transfer, transform (self).

Amen I believe that! I Know that :grin:

Then why did you say there is nothing about glorified bodies in the Bible?

And not one place in the Bible can I find glorified connected to bodies.

Our lowly bodies are going to be transformed into his glorious body--so why don't you tell me what his glorious [post resurrection or transfiguration] body is like?  There are plenty of descriptions of it in the Bible.

That reads "glorious" and it is HIS body. You keep going on about gettin or havin a glorified body, thats what Im speaking of.
Nowhere that I can find does it say we will have glorified bodys. We will be glorified IN His Body perhaps. And what you say about Paul and the third heaven and being caught up, I just read a thought thats seems to have merit. Paul was a NEW creature/new man could it have been that new creature that was caught up to the third heaven/paradise? I mean when you receive a word from the Lord, I believe that is your catching up that third heaven, where there are unspeakable things heard that you may not at the moment you come back to this realm that you are not able to speak right now. Wasnt it Peter who said that bro. Paul had somethings to say that were hard to hear?

[Molly]

That reads "glorious" and it is HIS body. You keep going on about gettin or havin a glorified body, thats what Im speaking of.
Nowhere that I can find does it say we will have glorified bodys. We will be glorified IN His Body perhaps.

It says in Phil 3 that our lowly body will be transformed to be like his glorious body.  Let's read it again::

20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

--Phil 3

So, just to be clear, tell me how you are reading that again?

You said, "we will be glorified IN his body."  In simple English--what does that mean?

[micah7:9]

That reads "glorious" and it is HIS body. You keep going on about gettin or havin a glorified body, thats what Im speaking of.
Nowhere that I can find does it say we will have glorified bodys. We will be glorified IN His Body perhaps.

It says in Phil 3 that our lowly body will be transformed to be like his glorious body.  Let's read it again::

20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

--Phil 3

So, just to be clear, tell me how you are reading that again?

You said, "we will be glorified IN his body."  In simple English--what does that mean?

The same thing. If we are not in we cant be like.
Php 3:21  who shall transform the body of our humiliation to its becoming conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working of his power, even to subject to himself the all things.

Ive asked you before what is a glorious body?

[Molly]

That reads "glorious" and it is HIS body. You keep going on about gettin or havin a glorified body, thats what Im speaking of.
Nowhere that I can find does it say we will have glorified bodys. We will be glorified IN His Body perhaps.

It says in Phil 3 that our lowly body will be transformed to be like his glorious body.  Let's read it again::

20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

--Phil 3

So, just to be clear, tell me how you are reading that again?

You said, "we will be glorified IN his body."  In simple English--what does that mean?

The same thing. If we are not in we cant be like.
Php 3:21  who shall transform the body of our humiliation to its becoming conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working of his power, even to subject to himself the all things.

Ive asked you before what is a glorious body?

No.  You still haven't explained to me how you see this.

I have said that our bodies will be transformed into glorified bodies like his glorified body.   That is a very simple statement. I am talking about believers now.  You don't like that explanation.  So tell me in clear English--how do you see this differently?

[micah7:9]

I understand your frustration on this one Molly. It is often difficult to distinguish between carnal and what God is doing.

I think God also uses carnal things to do things.

He does that all the time, use carnal things to turn out good. He has been doing that from the Beginning. We can see it right there in the Garden, man ate of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. thats pretty carnal. And whats he doing with that......? And how about Joseph being thrown in that pit by his brothers, pretty carnal.....and what did He do with that..?

[Beloved Servant]

Glory is a hard word to define but the word LIGHT is common among the explanations.

[micah7:9]

That reads "glorious" and it is HIS body. You keep going on about gettin or havin a glorified body, thats what Im speaking of.
Nowhere that I can find does it say we will have glorified bodys. We will be glorified IN His Body perhaps.

It says in Phil 3 that our lowly body will be transformed to be like his glorious body.  Let's read it again::

20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

--Phil 3

So, just to be clear, tell me how you are reading that again?

You said, "we will be glorified IN his body."  In simple English--what does that mean?

The same thing. If we are not in we cant be like.
Php 3:21  who shall transform the body of our humiliation to its becoming conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working of his power, even to subject to himself the all things.

Ive asked you before what is a glorious body?

No.  You still haven't explained to me how you see this.

I have said that our bodies will be transformed into glorified bodies like his glorified body.   That is a very simple statement. I am talking about believers now.  You don't like that explanation.  So tell me in clear English--how do you see this differently?

Friend I can see what you are saying, and I will agree because it is so; our humiliation will be conformed to His glorious body but your explanations seem to see this conforming without dying. You say that this will take place when we die, correct?

I myself do not have the slightest idea what a glorious body will look like. Do you?
Yes Beloved light would be something to start with since He did in the beginning.

I just noticed that only the WNT is the only translation of 6 that uses the word "transform" the others use "conformed" or as the KJV uses "fashioned."  Fashioned  G1096
γίνομαι
ginomai
Thayer Definition:
1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen

[sheila]

 in old paintings a glory light/halo/crown was painted on/above heads of saints...MIND OF CHRIST/incorruptible new  body....cloven tongues speaks

of seperation and distinction...truth from deception.  He appears again 'apart' from sin[error]  fire/burn chaff out of us...head of wheat

[micah7:9]

2 Corinthians 5:8 >>
New Living Translation (2007)
Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.


Even in the King James I read that to mean: to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

(KJV)  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

(CLV) yet we are encouraged, and are delighting rather to be away from home out of the body and to be at home with the Lord."

Now that "and" could very will be a considerable amount of time yes? Also we see that, they would "willing and delighting"
RATHER to be away or be absent. I would to! :grin:

[micah7:9]

Fine. But there is nothing that proves there is or isn't death. The verse isn't about that topic so it can't be used to (dis)prove anything regarding that topic.
:2c:

What do you mean?

Shall not perish is about death.  =Shall not die.

whoever believes in him shall not die.  How many ways are there to say it?

How are we to understand this one Molly, its saying just about what you brought forward. Just wondering.
1Jn 3:9  every one who hath been begotten of God, sin he doth not, because his seed in him doth remain, and he is not able to sin, because of God he hath been begotten.
1Jn 3:9  Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God.