Died In My Stead?

[WhiteWings]

Fine. But there is nothing that proves there is or isn't death. The verse isn't about that topic so it can't be used to (dis)prove anything regarding that topic.
:2c:

[Molly]

Fine. But there is nothing that proves there is or isn't death. The verse isn't about that topic so it can't be used to (dis)prove anything regarding that topic.
:2c:

What do you mean?

Shall not perish is about death.  =Shall not die.

whoever believes in him shall not die.  How many ways are there to say it?

[Molly]

This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
1 John 4:10

The wages of sin is death.  He paid the price for us with his death.  We no longer have to die.


and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,
Rev 1:5


Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life...
John 3:36

[WhiteWings]

Perish in LoF as a goat.

People are resurrected. Good people and bad people. The mass of humanity stands before the Throne and gets seperated in Lambs for life and Goats to perish a second death.
If good people don't die they can't be resurrected. Unless you think it's only about OT saints. In that case I would like to see some proof for that.

whoever believes in him shall not die a a sencond death....?

Look, I'm not saying there isn't support for not dying at all (for some). Maybe you have hunderds of verses that support your claim. It's just that imo John 3:16 isn't one of them.

Few possibilities as I see them :
a] SAINTS: This life  -----> Death ----> Age-during life ---> Eternity
b] SINNERS: This life ---> death ----> Second death ----> Eternity

c] SAINTS: This life ----> Age during life ----> Eternity
d] SINNERS: This life -----> Second death instanly after death ---> Eternity


c] comes very close to/is your view. But then we need proof age-during life directly follows this life.

[Molly]

There is no gap between life and life.
Believers have already crossed over from death to life.  There is no more death.

I TELL YOU THE TRUTH, THE ONE WHO BELIEVES IN ME HAS ETERNAL LIFE.

John 6:47

[WhiteWings]

I checked a few translations an none of them use "never".
For me John 3:16 only says that believers have an age of life while others don't.
When? How long? That's not in the verse.

[WhiteWings]

There is no gap between life and life.
Believers have already crossed over from death to life.  There is no more death.

Death still has it's sting.

I TELL YOU THE TRUTH, THE ONE WHO BELIEVES IN ME HAS ETERNAL LIFE.

John 6:47

You edited while I was making my previous post. I leave that one and as a reply to John 6:47

^YLTJohn 6
47 `Verily, verily, I say to you, He who is believing in me, hath life age-during;

[Molly]

I checked a few translations an none of them use "never".
For me John 3:16 only says that believers have an age of life while others don't.
When? How long? That's not in the verse.

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

--John 5:24

We have already passed from death to life.  Start the clock ticking on eternal life right now.

John 3:16  says SHALL NOT DIE and SHALL NOT PERISH

John 11:26 says SHALL NEVER DIE

Paul says if we lose this body, God has a body waiting for us in heaven.

How many ways does he have to slice and dice it before people will understand?

[WhiteWings]

3:16 and 11:26 are useles.
But 5:24 seems to support your view.

[Molly]

3:16 and 11:26 are useles.
But 5:24 seems to support your view.

I'm trying to figure out what your thought process is such that you cannot understand shall not perish, and I think you are thinking too much.  That statement is very direct and should be taken in the simplest way possible.  For instance, if I am in a burning building, and a fireman shows up and says, I'm here, you will not die, I would take that as a very direct statement.  I would not take it to mean that I am going to die but...later something will happen and I will no longer be dead. 

You seem to read it and it sets off this process in your head of death and resurrection and white throne judgment and who knows what else.  That process is not contained in this statement.  This is a very simple statement of fact, whoever believes in him will not die but [instead of dying]shall have everlasting life.

There is no indication in that sentence that anything is happening other than the person is now enjoying everlasting life for an  uninterrupted everlasting period of time.  There is no indication in that sentence that this will be taken away from him and then given back or that this will be not given now but later or anything else.  It's here, it's now, it's given.  It's very simple English.


For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:16

[redhotmagma]

I think ww is saying that aionos life =/= everlasting.


JOh 6:54 The one who eats  my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.    Does this speak of a resurrection?

John 17:3 Now this is eternal life  – that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ,   whom you sent.       Definition of eternal life


This is another of those topics that I see as through an amusement park viewfinder  :laughing7:    I see both sides of the discussion, I'm kind of like Switzerland on this

[Molly]

I think ww is saying that aionos life =/= everlasting.


JOh 6:54 The one who eats  my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.    Does this speak of a resurrection?

John 17:3 Now this is eternal life  – that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ,   whom you sent.       Definition of eternal life


This is another of those topics that I see as through an amusement park viewfinder  :laughing7:    I see both sides of the discussion, I'm kind of like Switzerland on this

Yes, I can see the Greek, I understand it is saying aionios life, but I choose to use the English words the translators use to avoid confusion. 

First of all, no one knows how long aionios life is, but one meaning of the word is perpetual, one meaning eternal, and one meaning age-during.  We could all agree that it is a long and unknown period of time.

But, my main point is that we have everlasting life NOW.  Right now.  And, it will continue for a very long period of time.  That means it will transcend the physical death of the earthly body which is in danger of speedy disappearance being transient and not eternal in nature.

[redhotmagma]

got it

what about the raise him up on the last day verse?

[Molly]

got it

what about the raise him up on the last day verse?

Clearly, when we die, are bodies are no longer being used as our home.  2Cor 5 tells us at that point God gives us an eternal home in heaven.

But, at some point our bodies will be redeemed as glorified bodies.  He is saving us from the inside out.  Spirit, then soul, then body.  The redemption of the body is the last thing to happen.

[redhotmagma]

Is the soul saved after death? (first or second death) and then the body after? Life aionos? 

Just trying to see through your glasses

[Molly]

Is the soul saved after death? (first or second death) and then the body after? Life aionos? 

Just trying to see through your glasses

I see us as the firstfruits.  Our souls are saved now.  We have everlasting life now.

Jesus takes an interesting attitude towards death.  Remember when he says, Our friend Lazarus is sleeping, let's go wake him up.  And the disciples take that literally--sleeping?  Oh, then he's still alive.  Then Jesus says, he's dead.

So for Jesus, and we see this in the use of the Greek and Hebrew words, death has the connotation of sleeping.  But we shall not all sleep...

Now you can also be asleep and walking around on your own two feet, hence let the dead bury their dead [because they do not know about aionios life].

[redhotmagma]

Our souls are saved from our dying to ourselves?  Spirit saved by Jesus dying?

[Molly]

Our souls are saved from our dying to ourselves?  Spirit saved by Jesus dying?

well, I see that dying to self in a different way than most I think.

It sounds like a grueling process.  Remember Martin Luther in his cell scourging his own back with whips?  People can really get carried away if they do not understand what is going on here.

What is going on is that Christ is getting bigger inside of us and our carnal desires, thoughts, and wishes are getting smaller.  It's not about anything we can do except to pay attention to it and keep our eyes on Jesus.  So, yes, we might bridle our tongue, but only He can change our hearts.  Our spirits are purified by the Holy Spirit.  Our souls are saved by being entwined with his.

So his dying for us means that this process can now begin, for some in this age, for others in another age.  I really believe that he doesn't want to be separated from us any more than we want to be separated from him. :2c:

[redhotmagma]

I was just thinking about this before your last post, and I thunked

The veil that was rent in the temple was between the Most Holy, and the Holy.  Spirit and soul.  If the veil was removed the Shekinah should(?) cleanse the rest of the temple, just by being the presence of God.  Not by anything the priests could do. 

[Molly]

I was just thinking about this before your last post, and I thunked

The veil that was rent in the temple was between the Most Holy, and the Holy.  Spirit and soul.  If the veil was removed the Shekinah should(?) cleanse the rest of the temple, just by being the presence of God.  Not by anything the priests could do.

Yes, it's David's three sided tent!



1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

4And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

[CHB]

got it

what about the raise him up on the last day verse?

Clearly, when we die, are bodies are no longer being used as our home.  2Cor 5 tells us at that point God gives us an eternal home in heaven.

But, at some point our bodies will be redeemed as glorified bodies.  He is saving us from the inside out.  Spirit, then soul, then body.  The redemption of the body is the last thing to happen.

I was thinking the same thing as RHM was about "raising up at the last day". I believe the Baptist believe the same as you do. They believe that we go on to heaven or hell when we die, later at Jesus coming our bodies are raised up and we are united with our bodies.

I do believe there was a change in death and all things after the crucifixion and resurrection but this one thing about going on to heaven when we die is hard for me to see. I just don't see the purpose of reuniting our spirit with our bodies that have decayed.

Another question: What about when Jesus said "all that are in the graves will hear his voice and come forth"?  This doesn't sound like they were already in heaven.

CHB

[micah7:9]

This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
1 John 4:10

The wages of sin is death.  He paid the price for us with his death.  We no longer have to die.


and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,
Rev 1:5


Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life...
John 3:36

"The wages of sin is death.  He paid the price for us with his death.  We no longer have to die." Molly

Jesus paid the ransom for SIN, He did not pay the ransom for DEATH.
(YLT)  and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
Molly your old man is dead, crucified with Christ, BUT you Molly[mankind/human being] is not dead. Are you?

[micah7:9]

There is no gap between life and life.
Believers have already crossed over from death to life.  There is no more death.

I TELL YOU THE TRUTH, THE ONE WHO BELIEVES IN ME HAS ETERNAL LIFE.

John 6:47

"Believers have already crossed over from death to life. There is no more death."
The only place I can find your statement is

Rev 21:4  and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away.

[micah7:9]

I checked a few translations an none of them use "never".
For me John 3:16 only says that believers have an age of life while others don't.
When? How long? That's not in the verse.

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

--John 5:24

We have already passed from death to life.  Start the clock ticking on eternal life right now.

John 3:16  says SHALL NOT DIE and SHALL NOT PERISH

John 11:26 says SHALL NEVER DIE

Paul says if we lose this body, God has a body waiting for us in heaven.

How many ways does he have to slice and dice it before people will understand?

Could you clarify with book and verse your statement "Paul says if we lose this body, God has a body waiting for us in heaven."

[CHB]

Just thought of something. If we have a body waiting for us in heaven why do we need these old rotten bodies that are in the grave?

CHB