Died In My Stead?

[micah7:9]

"If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"

I know its in there but I cant find it. A little help?? thanks

[WhiteWings]

"If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"

I know its in there but I cant find it. A little help?? thanks

John 21:22

[Molly]

2 Corinthians 5
1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.



That says I have an eternal body prepared for me in heaven Micah [celestial body], if this [earthly] tent of a body I am living in is destroyed.

[CHB]

Hi All, long time no see.

Molly, but when will you receive this new body? At your death or at your resurrection? It could be argued both ways.

CHB

[thinktank]

You didn't answer my question, Micah.

This how I believe the Lord gave me to understand it.

""Eonian life" is life for the eons or life for the ages. However long the eons or ages are, that how long eonian or age-abiding life is. Then what?

Here's why unlearned theologians say this is not possible, because after the ages or eons, we would all die. NOT TRUE!

Let me illustrate. Suppose your company is going to buy you and everyone in your company an all-expense paid trip to Europe for one month.  EVERYBODY gets that trip. However, because you are such a fabulous worker and such a asset to the company, your boss is going to send you on a trip to Europe for three whole weeks BEFORE everyone else goes on their trip. This is a SPECIAL, BONUS trip. Not many get to go on THIS particular bonus trip, only a few.

Now then, you get to go THREE WEEKS earlier than the rest. When they arrive, you have already been their enjoying yourself for THREE WEEKS. So when the others arrive to begin their vacation, does your vacation END? No. Only your "three week" vacation ends. But you CONTINUE to vacation in Europe just as long as the rest.Your hotel reservation is not cancelled after three weeks.

That is not a perfect illustration, but maybe you get the point. "Aionion" or "Age-lasting life" is a SPECIAL gift from God that only a relatively FEW ever receive. It is LIFE in God's Kingdom BEFORE the masses are brought into God's Kingdom. What allows those who are given "eonian life" to continue living even AFTER the eons are past, is not the promise from God of "eternal life" but rather "IMMORTALITY."

All of God's children will be given IMMORTALITY and INCORRUPTION, so that they will NEVER DIE. However, those who are given immortality before the rest, receive it ages or eons IN ADVANCE of the rest."  L. Ray Smith

Exactly.  So he offers life to some before the rest but eventually offers it to all.  He is able to do this because it is his to give.  He bought us at a price.

Now he says to us, to you and me, if you believe in me, you will never die.  I believe in him, do you?  So why all this talk of death when he has promised us we will never die?

and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
--John 11:26

I understand your frustration on this one Molly. It is often difficult to distinguish between carnal and what God is doing.

Often Christians are accused of being carnal, but they are bringing new truth or revelations to the body. I mean if there is new things going on in church, people might call it vanity.

But to me I like what you said about Christ life is living and not dying. But yet there is a requirement for the disciples of Christ to die daily to their carnality or non Christ nature. Paul lists some of these and also lists attributes of Christ. However I don't see that he has listed all attributes of Christ like, e.g courage is missing.

I am not sure who is required to die daily. There is not much talk of this to certain individuals. Some are given simple instructions, such as the Roman soldier who was told to be content with your wages. But others like Paul and the disciples were required to pick up the cross.

Another example is that the man, who had legion demons, was told by Christ to not follow him, but go back to the village and tell them what happened. But yet to another man Christ says let the dead bury the dead and follow me.

I think in these days Christ is calling His body closer to Him and that makes them want to kill the sinful nature within, to follow the lamb wherever he goes.

[WhiteWings]

I understand your frustration on this one Molly. It is often difficult to distinguish between carnal and what God is doing.

I think God also uses carnal things to do things.

[Molly]

Hi All, long time no see.

Molly, but when will you receive this new body? At your death or at your resurrection? It could be argued both ways.

CHB

Hi CHB! 

this new body in heaven is called

"a building" [of God]


G3619
οἰκοδομή
oikodomē
oy-kod-om-ay'
Feminine (abstraction) of a compound of G3624 and the base of G1430; architecture, that is, (concretely) a structure; figuratively confirmation: - building, edify (-ication, -ing).


eternal in the heavens.

This oikodome contrasts with the earthly house we live in [this body]--oikia--in that the earthly house is compared to a tent --skene--a temporary cloth house whereas the oikodome is a considerable structure, eternal, not temporary, in nature.

Since in the other passage I've cited, Jesus tells those that believe in him that they will never die, that they will have eternal life [same word--aionios]--and now we see we have an eternal body in which to live that eternal [aionios] life--the two dovetail together.

Therefore, I believe that IF this physical body should be destroyed, I will immediately pass into the eternal body spoken of in this passage.  In fact, I have already seen this body.

I also believe the next step after this will be a glorified body at the end of the age which will be our immortal dwelling place.

and so we shall always be with the Lord

[Beloved Servant]

IF !     :hithere:

[micah7:9]

"If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"

John 21:22

(ASV)  Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? Follow thou me.

(CLV) Jesus is saying to him, "If I should be wanting him to be remaining till I am coming, what is it to you? You be following Me!"

(KJV)  Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

(WNT)  "If I desire him to remain till I come," replied Jesus, "what concern is that of yours? You, yourself, must follow me."

(YLT)  Jesus saith to him, `If him I will to remain till I come, what--to thee? be thou following me.' This word, therefore, went forth to the brethren that that disciple doth not die,
Nothing here about "remaining alive,"(unless you count the poor witness) that I can find? But was giving it some thought and came around with this.

Joh 21:22  Jesus saith to him, `If him I will to remain till I come, what--to thee? be thou following me.' This word, therefore, went forth to the brethren that that disciple doth not die,
This is an example of a poor witness.
But could this possibly be refering to, Acts 2:1-Act 2:4  and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit,
Joh 14:26  and the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name,

Thoughts on it?  And we sure have moved away from the original post, seems thats done alot, Me too.

[Beloved Servant]

Jesus here set a precedent that it is not outside the realm of possibility.

[thinktank]

I understand your frustration on this one Molly. It is often difficult to distinguish between carnal and what God is doing.

I think God also uses carnal things to do things.

Yes. The Internet is a good example, of how God uses this platform, built by the carnal ambitions of warfare, in a powerful way.

[CHB]

Hi All, long time no see.

Molly, but when will you receive this new body? At your death or at your resurrection? It could be argued both ways.

CHB

Hi CHB! 

this new body in heaven is called

"a building" [of God]


G3619
οἰκοδομή
oikodomē
oy-kod-om-ay'
Feminine (abstraction) of a compound of G3624 and the base of G1430; architecture, that is, (concretely) a structure; figuratively confirmation: - building, edify (-ication, -ing).


eternal in the heavens.

This oikodome contrasts with the earthly house we live in [this body]--oikia--in that the earthly house is compared to a tent --skene--a temporary cloth house whereas the oikodome is a considerable structure, eternal, not temporary, in nature.

Since in the other passage I've cited, Jesus tells those that believe in him that they will never die, that they will have eternal life [same word--aionios]--and now we see we have an eternal body in which to live that eternal [aionios] life--the two dovetail together.

Therefore, I believe that IF this physical body should be destroyed, I will immediately pass into the eternal body spoken of in this passage.  In fact, I have already seen this body.

I also believe the next step after this will be a glorified body at the end of the age which will be our immortal dwelling place.

and so we shall always be with the Lord

Hi Molly,

I sure hope you are right and I am wrong.  :happy3: The only thing about being dead that bothers me is thinking about remaining in the grave until Christ return and my resurrection.

CHB

[micah7:9]

Hi All, long time no see.

Molly, but when will you receive this new body? At your death or at your resurrection? It could be argued both ways.

CHB

Hi CHB! 

this new body in heaven is called

"a building" [of God]


G3619
οἰκοδομή
oikodomē
oy-kod-om-ay'
Feminine (abstraction) of a compound of G3624 and the base of G1430; architecture, that is, (concretely) a structure; figuratively confirmation: - building, edify (-ication, -ing).


eternal in the heavens.

This oikodome contrasts with the earthly house we live in [this body]--oikia--in that the earthly house is compared to a tent --skene--a temporary cloth house whereas the oikodome is a considerable structure, eternal, not temporary, in nature.

Since in the other passage I've cited, Jesus tells those that believe in him that they will never die, that they will have eternal life [same word--aionios]--and now we see we have an eternal body in which to live that eternal [aionios] life--the two dovetail together.

Therefore, I believe that IF this physical body should be destroyed, I will immediately pass into the eternal body spoken of in this passage.  In fact, I have already seen this body.

I also believe the next step after this will be a glorified body at the end of the age which will be our immortal dwelling place.

and so we shall always be with the Lord

Hi Molly,

I sure hope you are right and I am wrong.  :happy3: The only thing about being dead that bothers me is thinking about remaining in the grave until Christ return and my resurrection.

CHB

You will not be conscious.  Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever; There is no further hire for them; Indeed remembrance of them is forgotten."

[CHB]

Hi Molly,

I sure hope you are right and I am wrong.  :happy3: The only thing about being dead that bothers me is thinking about remaining in the grave until Christ return and my resurrection.

CHB

You will not be conscious.  Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever; There is no further hire for them; Indeed remembrance of them is forgotten."

I am conscious now though, that is what I was referring to. Thinking about remaining dead until my resurrection. It would really be nice to know that when we die we go on and live with God and are not in the grave for any length of time. I am just not sure of this though.  :dontknow:

CHB 

[micah7:9]

Repent  means to think differently. When we repent we think differently, we are a new creature  2Co 5:17  so that if any one is in Christ-- he is a new creature; the old things did pass away, lo, become new have the all things.
that new creature has the mind of Christ

1Co 2:15  and he who is spiritual, doth discern indeed all things, and he himself is by no one discerned;
1Co 2:16  for who did know the mind of the Lord that he shall instruct Him? and we--we have the mind of Christ.

Think with that mind and you wont be thinking of such things. Peace and Love Through Jesus  :bigGrin:

[Molly]

Hi All, long time no see.

Molly, but when will you receive this new body? At your death or at your resurrection? It could be argued both ways.

CHB

Hi CHB! 

this new body in heaven is called

"a building" [of God]


G3619
οἰκοδομή
oikodomē
oy-kod-om-ay'
Feminine (abstraction) of a compound of G3624 and the base of G1430; architecture, that is, (concretely) a structure; figuratively confirmation: - building, edify (-ication, -ing).


eternal in the heavens.

This oikodome contrasts with the earthly house we live in [this body]--oikia--in that the earthly house is compared to a tent --skene--a temporary cloth house whereas the oikodome is a considerable structure, eternal, not temporary, in nature.

Since in the other passage I've cited, Jesus tells those that believe in him that they will never die, that they will have eternal life [same word--aionios]--and now we see we have an eternal body in which to live that eternal [aionios] life--the two dovetail together.

Therefore, I believe that IF this physical body should be destroyed, I will immediately pass into the eternal body spoken of in this passage.  In fact, I have already seen this body.

I also believe the next step after this will be a glorified body at the end of the age which will be our immortal dwelling place.

and so we shall always be with the Lord

Hi Molly,

I sure hope you are right and I am wrong.  :happy3: The only thing about being dead that bothers me is thinking about remaining in the grave until Christ return and my resurrection.

CHB

Hi CHB!

Are you back in the Old Covenant with Micah and Solomon?  Solomon turned into a degenerate heathen in his old age.  The Old Covenant is a covenant with death.  But, Jesus came to give us abundant life.  King David understood that.

For you will not leave my soul among the dead or allow your holy one to rot in the grave.
--Psa 16:10


But God will redeem my life from the grave; he will surely take me to himself. Selah
--Psa 49:15


And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
--John 14:3

[micah7:9]

Hi All, long time no see.

Molly, but when will you receive this new body? At your death or at your resurrection? It could be argued both ways.

CHB

Hi CHB! 

this new body in heaven is called

"a building" [of God]


G3619
οἰκοδομή
oikodomē
oy-kod-om-ay'
Feminine (abstraction) of a compound of G3624 and the base of G1430; architecture, that is, (concretely) a structure; figuratively confirmation: - building, edify (-ication, -ing).


eternal in the heavens.

This oikodome contrasts with the earthly house we live in [this body]--oikia--in that the earthly house is compared to a tent --skene--a temporary cloth house whereas the oikodome is a considerable structure, eternal, not temporary, in nature.

Since in the other passage I've cited, Jesus tells those that believe in him that they will never die, that they will have eternal life [same word--aionios]--and now we see we have an eternal body in which to live that eternal [aionios] life--the two dovetail together.

Therefore, I believe that IF this physical body should be destroyed, I will immediately pass into the eternal body spoken of in this passage.  In fact, I have already seen this body.

I also believe the next step after this will be a glorified body at the end of the age which will be our immortal dwelling place.

and so we shall always be with the Lord

Hi Molly,

I sure hope you are right and I am wrong.  :happy3: The only thing about being dead that bothers me is thinking about remaining in the grave until Christ return and my resurrection.

CHB

Hi CHB!

Are you back in the Old Covenant with Micah and Solomon?  Solomon turned into a degenerate heathen in his old age.  The Old Covenant is a covenant with death.  But, Jesus came to give us abundant life.  King David understood that.

For you will not leave my soul among the dead or allow your holy one to rot in the grave.
--Psa 16:10


But God will redeem my life from the grave; he will surely take me to himself. Selah
--Psa 49:15


And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
--John 14:3

"Are you back in the Old Covenant with Micah and Solomon?  Solomon turned into a degenerate heathen in his old age" Molly

Are refering to me?  David was a murderer, and thats the old covenant, just where is Psalms in the new? I get the feeling that you consider the writings of Solomon are not a appropriate  for us today. Are you saying that Ecc. 9:5 is not a truth? Just wondering :sigh:

[Beloved Servant]

2 Corinthians 5:8 >>
New Living Translation (2007)
Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.


Even in the King James I read that to mean: to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

[Molly]

David was a murderer, and thats the old covenant, just where is Psalms in the new? I get the feeling that you consider the writings of Solomon are not a appropriate  for us today. Are you saying that Ecc. 9:5 is not a truth? Just wondering

Yes, I am saying that anyone who would quote Solomon over Jesus is missing the point.  When Jesus says if you believe in me you will never die, you should believe it if you believe in him.

David made a mistake [murder] and he repented for it.  But, David knew Jesus, and David had the indwelling Holy Spirit. David is also a type of priest and king, which means he is a type of Christ.  So I would believe David any day over Solomon.

You want to follow Solomon?  Get yourself a ton of money, wives, and horses and build altars to Baal.

[Molly]

1 Kings 11
King James Version (KJV)


1 Kings 11
1But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites:

2Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.

3And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.

4For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.

5For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.

6And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.

7Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.

8And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.

9And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice,

10And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods: but he kept not that which the LORD commanded.

11Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant.

12Notwithstanding in thy days I will not do it for David thy father's sake: but I will rend it out of the hand of thy son.

13Howbeit I will not rend away all the kingdom; but will give one tribe to thy son for David my servant's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake which I have chosen.



Molech: "A detestable Semitic deity honored by the sacrifice of children, in which they were caused to pass through or into the fire. Palestinian excavations have uncovered evidences of infant skeletons in burial places around heathen shrines. Ammonites revered Molech as a protecting father. Worship of Molech was stringently prohibited by Hebrew law. (Lev. 18:21; 20:1-5) Solomon built an altar to Molech at Tophet in the Valley of Hinnon. Manasseh in his idolatrous orgy also honored this deity. Josiah desecrated the Hinnom Valley altar, but Jehoiakim revived the cult."  Unger's Bible Dictionary by Merrill F. Unger (Chicago: Moody Press, 1957); page 416.

[WhiteWings]

Molech: "A detestable Semitic deity honored by the sacrifice of children, in which they were caused to pass through or into the fire.

I was even worse.
It were babies. Not in the fire but roasted alive. Molech was a hollow bronze statue. The baby was put inside and the fire was lit on the outside of Molech.

[micah7:9]

David was a murderer, and thats the old covenant, just where is Psalms in the new? I get the feeling that you consider the writings of Solomon are not a appropriate  for us today. Are you saying that Ecc. 9:5 is not a truth? Just wondering

Yes, I am saying that anyone who would quote Solomon over Jesus is missing the point.  When Jesus says if you believe in me you will never die, you should believe it if you believe in him.

David made a mistake [murder] and he repented for it.  But, David knew Jesus, and David had the indwelling Holy Spirit. David is also a type of priest and king, which means he is a type of Christ.  So I would believe David any day over Solomon.

You want to follow Solomon?  Get yourself a ton of money, wives, and horses and build altars to Baal.

Listen it seems you always want to take verses out of the Bible OT or NT when it suits you. I have not put anyone over any one. The Bible is written by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, from Gen. 1:1  to Rev.22:20 so I wouldnt be picken out just what you want.
Paul  stated the first man was a living soul and you say no, first man was a spirit first.
Jesus says Joh 3:13  And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.
And you say when man dies he goes to heaven.
The Lord God says Gen 3:19  by the sweat of thy face thou dost eat bread till thy return unto the ground, for out of it hast thou been taken, for dust thou art , and unto dust thou turnest back.'
And then Solomon comes and backs God up Ecc 12:7  And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth to God who gave it.
And you say no. Well as for me Ill take Moses, Solomon, Paul, the Gospels, James all of them as the Word of God.
Peace and Love Through Jesus :bigGrin: :HeartThrob:

[Molly]

Paul says God has prepared a body for us in heaven that is eternal.

It's there waiting for us should this earthly [body] tent be dissolved.

This confirms Jesus who says we will never die.

He actually uses a double negative for emphasis.

He says we will never, never die.

And, Jesus has the last word.

Let's read this really slowly together:

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

--John 3:16

Why is that so hard for you to understand?

[WhiteWings]

Paul says God has prepared a body for us in heaven that is eternal.

It's there waiting for us should this earthly [body] tent be dissolved.

This confirms Jesus who says we will never die.

It doesn't. The fact Father has a new tent for you doesn't mean you can't be "homeless" for a while after death

And, Jesus has the last word.

Let's read this really slowly together:

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

--John 3:16

^YLTJohn 3
16 for God did so love the world, that His Son--the only begotten--He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

See that verse isn't about eternal life at all.
It simply says that believers won't be cast into LoF.
:2c:

[Molly]

It doesn't. The fact Father has a new tent for you doesn't mean you can't be "homeless" for a while after death

Read my lips:  I am NOT going to be homeless.

Although, this might be the meaning of being naked in Revelation.  The unbelievers might be homeless for a while, until they meet and know Jesus.

Also, I am not going to split hairs over aionios life.  We know it is longer than this life on earth.  And we also know that we will have glorified bodies some day when His kingdom comes to earth.  At that time, we will be immortal because WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM.