Died In My Stead?

[WhiteWings]

As long as Adam was allowed to stay in the garden he was immortal because he had unimpeded access to the tree of life.

Mmm, but if for some reason he didn't eat he would have died when still in the garden. Is that real immortality?

[Molly]

As long as Adam was allowed to stay in the garden he was immortal because he had unimpeded access to the tree of life.

Mmm, but if for some reason he didn't eat he would have died when still in the garden. Is that real immortality?

No.  It's only potential immortality.  As we see, he could get kicked out of the garden for disobedience.  But, Christ gives us real immortality because he gives us his righteousness.

[WhiteWings]

Do you think the tree in Eden is this tree:

^ACVRevelation 22
2 in the middle of its thoroughfare. And on this side of the river and on that was a tree of life, bearing twelve fruits, yielding its fruit according to each month. And the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

[Molly]

Do you think the tree in Eden is this tree:

^ACVRevelation 22
2 in the middle of its thoroughfare. And on this side of the river and on that was a tree of life, bearing twelve fruits, yielding its fruit according to each month. And the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Yes.  But aren't there two trees of life in this verse and no tree of the knowledge of good and evil?  Death has been swallowed up by life?

[Molly]

He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
--Rom 4:25

[micah7:9]

Don't get me wrong Micah, I'm not ignoring that verse.
Basically I'm claiming that without Jesus' sacrifice that verse would not be in the Bible.

Gotcha! Amen

[micah7:9]

First of all, out of 13 translations, only one translation says 'dying thou shalt die.'  All the rest say,  [thou] shall surely [or certainly] die.  Using the verb twice there is for emphasis, according to 12 translations.  So clearly that is the translation I favor.  I do not believe Adam was already dying at the time God told him not to touch the tree.  As long as Adam was allowed to stay in the garden he was immortal because he had unimpeded access to the tree of life.

Secondly, first Micah says there is no spiritual death in the Bible, then he says there is a spiritual death but it is not relevant.  Which is it Micah? Is there a spiritual death or not?

Third, Adam does die spiritually after he eats from the tree [as does Jesus on the cross], years before he dies physically.  The fact that Adam is kicked out of the garden proves he has died spiritually.

Fourth, Jesus says that those who believe in him will never die.  Since, in this age we know we are still dying physically, he must have been referring to dying spiritually.

Paul talks about himself as being dead while he is still alive.  Therefore, Paul is acknowledging spiritual death, because we know Paul is still walking and talking when he refers to himself as 'dead.'

9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

--Rom 7

"Secondly, first Micah says there is no spiritual death in the Bible, then he says there is a spiritual death but it is not relevant.  Which is it Micah? Is there a spiritual death or not?"
I never said or implied that spiritual death is not relevent, I said no body talked about it back then as we do today. But while we are here, what spirit is recorded as dying?

"Third, Adam does die spiritually after he eats from the tree [as does Jesus on the cross], years before he dies physically.  The fact that Adam is kicked out of the garden proves he has died spiritually."

" Adam does die spiritually after he eats from the tree [as does Jesus on the cross],
are you saying Jesus only died spiritually on the cross? 
If Jesus did not die the death dying thou dust die, then take this verse out of the book
1Co 15:13  If there is no such thing as a resurrection of the dead, then Christ Himself has not risen to life.
As for the 4th I refer to the answer on the Secondly.

Molly from which book of the Bible did you read of "spiritual death?"  I am not talking about how you understand it, Im talking about reading about it so I can show some one chapter and verse. Thank you.

[jabcat]

Stauros is a "general word"
Means something like stake, stick, staff.

A bit of common sense (no pun intended!) goes a long way too.
Today take up your cross has a powerful (symbolic) meaning. A cross is a sign of Christianity. etc etc
But when Jesus spoke those words He wasn't crucified yet. Only He knew the was gonna happen.
His followers were Jews would believed He was promised Messiah that was gonna wipe out all their enemies. Not die on the cross like a criminal...
Besides of that a cross was to heavy to carry. I was a Roman thing, not Jewish. And if it had a religious meaning it was pagan.
It signifies the rebirth of the sun.

To recap:
- The symbolic meaning of the cross wasn't established yet.
- The real cross was way to heavy to carry. John was a real follower of Jesus. Do you think he took a 300 pound cross and walked to Patmos? :winkgrin:

WW, I was thinking of your "staff" again, wondering where it might fit in with following Jesus.  I did some looking.

Agree, disagree, "like" it or not, I thought the following might evoke some further thought and discussion.

http://shortdailydevotions.com/devotions/luke-923-25-radical-jesus-take-up-your-cross

And he said to all, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it. For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses or forfeits himself?
(Luke 9:23-25 ESV)

It's difficult from our modern perspective to completely understand the discomfort and even offense that the crowds would have felt from Jesus' words.  In our culture the cross is often relegated to being a good luck charm, a stylish piece of jewelry, a cool tattoo, and at best a symbolic piece of art.  Even in Christian circles we've sanitized our perspective of the cross with pictures of a smooth skinned Jesus with a small trickle of blood.

People from 2000 years ago would be shocked at how we utilize the cross. It was considered the most painful, gruesome, and shameful way to die.  Good Roman citizens were not supposed to talk about it, and the ancient Jewish historian Josephus called it "the most wretched of deaths."  Jewish people had witnessed literally thousands of their countrymen crucified on hillsides, so their picture of the cross was radically different than ours.

The Romans purpose behind crucifixion was simple: to provide the most painful, gruesome, and publicly shameful death imaginable. The condemned person would be forced to carry the horizontal portion of the cross, weighing about 110 pounds, through the streets in a procession to the place of execution. A small sign, stating the victim's crime, was usually placed on a staff and carried at the front of the procession from the prison. It was later nailed to the cross so that it extended above the head.  As the condemned would walk the streets people would scream insults and spit as he walked.

When the condemned arrived at the place of crucifixion, the vertical portion of the cross was planted in the ground.  He was then nailed to the cross-beam.  Historical Roman accounts have established that rough seven to eight inch nails were driven between the small bones of the wrists, rather than the palms.  The soldier would then take the left foot and press it backward against the right foot, and with both feet extended, toes down, one nail is driven through the arch of each, leaving the knees moderately flexed. The condemned is now crucified.

As he would sag down with more weight on the nails in the wrists, excruciating pain would shoot along the fingers through the median nerve, up the arms, and all the way into the brain. As he pushed himself upward to avoid this stretching torment, his full weight would shift to the nail through the feet.  Eventually his arms would become exhausted with fatigue, and his muscles so cramped that he could no longer push himself upward. As he hung in this excruciatingly cramped and painful position air could be drawn into the lungs, but not exhaled. The victim would fight with all of his remaining strength to lift himself, gasping for one more breath of oxygen.  Eventually, carbon dioxide would build up in the lungs and in the blood stream, and the victim would die from asphyxiation—the condemned man literally suffocates on the cross.

This is the picture they saw as Jesus spoke these words.

What would we think if someone today wore a golden electric chair around their neck?  Or what if they had nuclear mushroom cloud ear rings?  We would probably be a little appalled.

Imagine Jesus speaking to you today and saying,
"If you want to follow me, you must deny yourself and sit in your electric chair each day, you must sit in the gas chamber, you must die by lethal injection."

How does this change the way you approach following Jesus? - end quote

[Beloved Servant]

Imagine Jesus speaking to you today and saying,
"If you want to follow me, you must deny yourself and sit in your electric chair each day, you must sit in the gas chamber, you must die by lethal injection."

We really don't have to imagine anything for the Lord has spoke concerning the matter:
Luke 9:23; Then he said to the crowd, "If any of you wants to be my follower, you must turn from your selfish ways, take up your cross daily, and follow me.

[Molly]

Jab, I think they would have understood it metaphorically.  Plus, he didn't say hang on the cross, he said pick up your cross.  To understand the meaning of that, we would have to look at the passages where Jesus was carrying the cross.

I understand it as doing something very difficult, a thankless job or duty that calls for character and resolve, but I also understand that HE did all the hard work of the cross so I wouldn't have to.  Some of the gospels say that Simon of Cyrene was forced by the soldiers to carry the cross for him, which was bad enough for Simon, but in no way resembles what our Lord had to suffer.  Could it be he is calling us to be Simon?

Mark 15:19 Again and again they struck him on the head with a staff and spit on him. Falling on their knees, they paid homage to him.

20When they were finally tired of mocking him, they took off the purple robe and put his own clothes on him again. Then they led him away to be crucified.

21A certain man from Cyrene, Simon, the father of Alexander and Rufus, was passing by on his way in from the country, and they forced him to carry the cross.

[WhiteWings]

James,

The Romans had several crucifixion methods.
A stake.
A T shaped cross.
A X shaped cross.
A cross like seen in church.
Upside down like Peter.

The vertical part could be a beam like you see in most pictures. But it just as well could be a tree.
Romans had several rules for crucifixion.
Crucifixion must be near the scene of the crime. It must be a public place because crucifixion wasn't only to punish the criminal but also a warning what happens to those not obeying Roman laws.
It's hard to say were Jesu commited His crime because according to the priests every place He walked He commited blasphemy. According to Pilate there wasn't much wrong with Jesus. But Jesus was caught in the garden.
There are reference to Jesus hung on a green tree. The Roman soldier saw the temple curtain being torn. The Temple curtain could only be ssen from the east. (God only looks east ward)
The Temple was fortress like on hill (nicknamed the tower). Crucifixtion was outside the Temple complex. Outside the camp. (3000 cubits/2000 ft) Obviously from a valley the curtain couldn't be seen. Jesus was crucified on a elevated spot. That's the only spot teh Temple curtain could be seen.
That the place were He was arrested. On the mount of Olives. A garden full of olive trees. He was nailed to a green olive tree. A very public place because the it was also very near the altar of the read heifer/altar of ashes (?)


The Romans purpose behind crucifixion was simple: to provide the most painful, gruesome, and publicly shameful death imaginable. The condemned person would be forced to carry the horizontal portion of the cross, weighing about 110 pounds, through the streets in a procession to the place of execution. A small sign, stating the victim's crime, was usually placed on a staff and carried at the front of the procession from the prison. It was later nailed to the cross so that it extended above the head.
????

[WhiteWings]

A thing I recently found but can't verify:

I would like to make a very important point here:The bible teaches that Jesus had to carry the stake or as some believe cross, outside of the city. A very important point is that we can go back in history and find that there was a wall around the city, and many gates on each wall to exit the city. These gates were designed to prevent a man on horse back or camel from entering while riding. The design only allowed a man to enter by walking, and his mount had to squat. The reason for this was to not allow their enemies to ride into the city with the advantage of being on a mount while attacking. Giving this understanding I would like to present a point which shows why Jesus could not have carried a Cross outside the city. As you will see by the minimum dimensions necessary to place the cross at least four feet into the ground so it would not topple over, and still having adequate room to stretch a man at least six foot tall on the cross with at least two feet left from the ground, and adequate room for the sign that was hung above Jesus' head would make it at least thirteen feet tall. A man's arms stretched out is as long as the man is tall, so the side arms had to be at least five foot 10 inches in order to stretch his arms out the way they had to be stretched. I would like to ask how Jesus, or anyone could have gotten this thing through the small gates of the city that a horse had to squat in order to enter? Plus, the cross would have to be at least eight inches square, so if you think about the weight of this cross you will see it would take two men to carry it. I submit that a man that had been beaten all night long would not be able to pick it up.

(http://www.masters-table.org/pagan/x_size.png)

http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/crucifixion/roman-crucifixion-methods-reveal-the-history-of-crucifixion/

[Molly]

"I submit that a man that had been beaten all night long would not be able to pick it up."

Enter Simon of Cyrene.

[WhiteWings]

"I submit that a man that had been beaten all night long would not be able to pick it up."

Not all (scholars) agree with that. Pilate didn't have a real problem with Jesus so the beating possibly wasn't that extreme.
Besides of that... many healty people can't lift/drag a 300 pound cross (uphill)

[jabcat]

Do you believe it was only part of the cross He was carrying, like the cross-bar?  I think I've seen you say that before.

Also, since He was carrying something [and then Simon of Cyrene] how is it that He was crucified on an olive tree [that was already there?]? 

[WhiteWings]

^KJVJoh 19:41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden;
Garden is orchard/plantation.
That's where Jesus was crucified.
Jesus didn't carry a cross. He only carried the upper cross piece. A board plank. A patibulum
Then Jesus was nailed with his arms to that plank. Then got lifted up and the plank got nailed to the vertical part of the cross.
The vertical part was simply a living tree in the garden. That was common in those days if the crucifixion had to be carried out quickly.

^KJVLuk 23:31  For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry? => Green is a living tree.
^KJVAct 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
^KJVAct 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
^KJV1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Ignatius called it a tree with branches and had fruit on it. Early Christians saw it as the Tree of Life. (artwork in the catacombs)
Jesus and the 2 thiefs where nailed to the same (olive) tree.

(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:YgKx-yzdk5RtsM:http://www.runic.com/print/olive-tree-logo.jpg)

http://jesusisyhwh.blogspot.com/2008/08/was-jesus-executed-on-cross-or-stake-3c.html

[Molly]

Do you believe it was only part of the cross He was carrying, like the cross-bar?  I think I've seen you say that before.

Also, since He was carrying something [and then Simon of Cyrene] how is it that He was crucified on an olive tree [that was already there?]?

Interesting.

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a TREE (Galatians 3:13, KJV).

http://hope-of-israel.org.nz/cructree.html

[WhiteWings]

I think we have to take in mind the symbology of things.
Jesus was the goat sacrifice. He was the sheep sacrifice.
Wouldn't it be logical Jesus was crucified in place where God could see Him when looking from the Temple?
It was also the place where David counted head of his army. Golgotha means cranium, skull.
Also the place where Abraham intended to sacrifice his son.
Olive oil is what's used to burn the menorah.

Dunno it's al relevant but I do think so.

[Molly]

I think we have to take in mind the symbology of things.
Jesus was the goat sacrifice. He was the sheep sacrifice.
Wouldn't it be logical Jesus was crucified in place where God could see Him when looking from the Temple?
It was also the place where David counted head of his army. Golgotha means cranium, skull.
Also the place where Abraham intended to sacrifice his son.
Olive oil is what's used to burn the menorah.

Dunno it's al relevant but I do think so.

Yep.

Olive tree is the symbol of Israel.
Two trees in the garden.
Tree of the knowledge of good and evil=the Law=covenant with death.

[jabcat]

Good stuff, Molly and Wings.

[Molly]

From article above:  (Why would he be nailed to the tree of life instead of to the tree of tkge?)


The fact that the evidence in support of the TREE -- rather than the Roman cross -- for the crucifixion of the Messiah is overwhelming opens the door to making a profound connection between the crucifixion TREE and the Tree of Life. As we have already seen, the Greek word xulou (or xulon) was used to refer to the crucifixion tree. In contrast, the Greek word dendron -- which refers to a living tree primarily known for its fruit -- was NEVER used in this way. Significantly, the same Greek word (xulou/xulon) that refers to the crucifixion tree is also used to refer to the Tree of Life in the Book of Revelation! Notice!

He who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree[XULON] of life, which is in the Paradise of God (Revelation 2:7).

...And on either side of the river was the tree of life....yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations (Revelation 22:2).

Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city (Revelation 22:14).

...And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book (Revelation 22:19).

The use of the same Greek word confirms a DIRECT LINK between the Tree of Life and the crucifixion tree. That link, both LITERAL and SYMBOLIC, has been traced from the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden to the crucifixion tree on the Mount of Olives.

[WhiteWings]

The menorah is mainly an almond tree. The "ends"(dunno the proper name) in wich the actual flame is are olive. --> Or some similar design.
IIRC the oil represents the HS.


This kind of "symbolic matches" makes me refuse to accept the cross was just some dead wood. But there is other evidence too.
On of it being that the thieves (possibly wrongly translated from holy/saints) were on the same cross/tree.
Not 3 seperate crosses....

[Molly]

Adam dies as a result of eating the tree of kge, Christ dies on the tree of life.

Help me out with this.

Old covenant is tree of kge, New covenant is tree of life?

[WhiteWings]

Imo nailed to a tree could be seen as grafted in?


http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/bible_verses_used_assert_not_all_will_be_saved/revelation_221819_taken_out_book_life_8986.msg116954.html#msg116954

[WhiteWings]

Adam dies as a result of eating the tree of kge, Christ dies on the tree of life.

Help me out with this.

Old covenant is tree of kge, New covenant is tree of life?

I have an idea but.....
Eve stole from the tree. First fruit Jesus was nailed back to the 'same tree'.
That may sound good at first but it would rather picture Jesus on the Tree of life instead the other tree basicly being the tree of death.
Plus I have reasons to believe the tree of life was an almond tree and the other tree was a fig tree.

Although I admit I see problems in my thoughts I still believe it's about the fruit being put back on the tree. Damage undone. :dontknow: