I should admit that hell is one of the reasons for rejecting Christianity

[B_T]

Well, I'm yet a hell believer... But After a search on the internet I got on this thread in a forum... called Ex Christian

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=7197

Don't misunderstand me ... I'm not advertising this website. It unites people that were Christians but no longer are now... And one of the top reasons for this is hell...
And yes, I still believe in it... Please, don't jump on me because of that...But I admit that hell doctrine is one of the very top reasons ( if not the top one for rejecting Christianity )...
I would like to repost something that touched me very deeply in my heart...

Nothing could add to the horror of hell, except the presence of its creator, God. While I have life, as long as I draw breath, I shall deny with all my strength, and hate with every drop of my blood, this infinite lie. I would not for my life destroy one star of human hope, but I want it so that when a poor woman rocks the cradle and sings a lullaby to the dimpled darling, she will not be compelled to believe that ninety-nine chances in a hundred she is raising kindling wood for hell.
If there is a God who will damn his children forever, I would rather go to hell than to go to heaven and keep the society of such an infamous tyrant. I make my choice now. I despise that doctrine. It has covered the cheeks of this world with tears. It has polluted the hearts of children, and poisoned the imaginations of men.... What right have you, sir, Mr. clergyman, you, minister of the gospel to stand at the portals of the tomb, at the vestibule of eternity, and fill the future with horror and with fear? I do not believe this doctrine, neither do you. If you did, you could not sleep one moment. Any man who believes it, and has within his breast a decent, throbbing heart, will go insane. A man who believes that doctrine and does not go insane has the heart of a snake and the conscience of a hyena.

[SeekerSA]

Hi B_T

This is also one of the main reasons for Agnostics and Atheists.  It goes against all logic.

If you have the time, I recommend reading this Doctrine of Retribution History

Like many things it is something to unlearn but only you can let go.  Believe me it is a huge burden lifted.

There is a study I read on Mystery Babylon depicting the history of the church upto today.  It is not a UR site, PM me and I will give you the link.

Much tradition in Protestant/Reformed churches today originate from the RCC.  Some RCC doctrines have been dropped but others strongly held onto.

Blessings

[B_T]

By RCC you mean Roman Catholic Church, right?

Yes, it goes against logic... This is the doctrine that mostly keeps people away from God... Darwin writes about it as "damnable doctrine"...
So there are two options

1. There is no eternal punishment in the lake of fire
2. The lake of fire is misunderstood

Most people ( including the pastor in the Pentecostal church I go ) hold the second option. You choose to be without God, and flames and undying worms are metaphoric picture of your regret for choosing to be without God in eternity.

[shibboleth]

Nothing could add to the horror of hell, except the presence of its creator, God. While I have life, as long as I draw breath, I shall deny with all my strength, and hate with every drop of my blood, this infinite lie. I would not for my life destroy one star of human hope, but I want it so that when a poor woman rocks the cradle and sings a lullaby to the dimpled darling, she will not be compelled to believe that ninety-nine chances in a hundred she is raising kindling wood for hell.

I agree with all the other parts of this paper too. But, the loving mother versus unloving god really gave me a mind picture of god I hadn't really looked at before. Well, I had, but just the way this was worded gave me food for thought.

You are among friends,B_T. The depression and suicidal tendecies I suffered were because of the hell doctrine. In 2005, after many months of study, I woke up one morning and knew that God would never send any of his creation to hellfire. Hang in there, you are here for a reason and God is showing you doubts about hell because He wants you to keep asking, searching and seeking. Tentmaker's is a good place to come if you want answers/color]

[SeekerSA]

So there are two options

1. There is no eternal punishment in the lake of fire
2. The lake of fire is misunderstood

Most people ( including the pastor in the Pentecostal church I go ) hold the second option. You choose to be without God, and flames and undying worms are metaphoric picture of your regret for choosing to be without God in eternity.

Hell is one of the most misunderstood parts of scripture, the word hell didn't even come into being till the 1500's and anyhow refers to a pit in the ground for storing perishables, prior to refrigeration.

Hell = Gehenna, Sheol, Hades Hinnom is not the same as the Lake of Fire.

Read up in the hell board the links are there all about where this doctrine originated from.

Blessings

[B_T]

Yes, I have read all these articles about Hell ...
And it seems that modern churches are aware of the nature of Geheena and they think it will be a lake of fire that will last forever and ever...

So the Christianity has a BIG paradox...

1. God is Good, God is Love... Yes, we can't reject it, because the Bible says that God is love and we see Jesus doing things because he loves people. He heals, for example...
2. And 90% of people on this Earth will end in the Lake of fire and will burn there for ever and ever amen.

This is something disturbing...

[Kept]

I hope this doesnt sound horrible but honestly I think most agnostics and athiests that have wrestled with the eternal tormenting God view are closer to God than those that never have. Why is it such a sin to actually THINK?

God Himself invites us to come and reason with Him.
Asking these tough questions might get you kicked out of a church or turn you off to christianity and that is why it is so important that this message get out to those folks whom know in their knower God is not this monster that has been portrayed to them and that there are those that believe in a God of love and mercy that His wrath is on all sin but for the sake of transforming all His children till they look just like Him.


God bless
kept

[SeekerSA]

I hope this doesnt sound horrible but honestly I think most agnostics and athiests that have wrestled with the eternal tormenting God view are closer to God than those that never have. Why is it such a sin to actually THINK?

God Himself invites us to come and reason with Him.
Asking these tough questions might get you kicked out of a church or turn you off to christianity and that is why it is so important that this message get out to those folks whom know in their knower God is not this monster that has been portrayed to them and that there are those that believe in a God of love and mercy that His wrath is on all sin but for the sake of transforming all His children till they look just like Him.

I must agree.  They at least search the scriptures and 99% of the time have a better knowledge than most Christians.  When you throw not hell in their face they are pleasant to debate with, most I have spoken to respect my open views, now 6-day creation really gets them riled up.

BIC

[B_T]

I think the real problem is here ( especially in this Charismatic movement ):

God loves us... He really loves us. We feel his love, we sing in the Spirit, we pray in the Spirit. Oh well, it's all that world, they are too blind to see that God is great... We must go to the world, invite them, tell them that if they don't accept Christianity, they'll go to hell and nothing can save them. 
There's yet another *big paradox* in my small country and it's because our traditional faith is Eastern Orthodox Christianity. Then we had all these evangelisators shouting here and where trying to evangelise traditional Orthodox Christians: "Your faith is wrong, turn to Jesus now, repent, or go to hell". The situation grew worse in 20 years and we have thousands of churches here - Pentecostals, United Church of God type 1, United Church of God type 2, God's Church, New Generation, Shalom, and so on... and so on...
Each Church show differences but almost everywhere the situation is the same: arrogant and hypocritical people talking behind your back and shouting: "We are saved, we are the very few chosen ones..." Disturbing, isn't that?
I had a girlfriend who has rejected Christianity because of this very same reason... Now it turns that even people in the World ( unchosen, unsaved, going to hell ) are better and showing more love than people in the Church ( chosen, saved, very few lambs for God ).  I have heard a statement: "Oh, look at these people. They are very good and helpful, but they are going to Hell. That's right. There will be good people in hell." I said this statement to a person in my University and he said to me: "Is that true? Do you really preach that good people will go to Hell?". "Well, that's true", I said...

[julzabro2]

My sister is (pardon the labels) a fundamentalist, evangelical, conservative Christian. Her and I went through years of debating. Although, I claim to be a Christian and read/study the Bible, she maintains that because I smoke, don't go to church and haven't been baptized that I am NOT Christian. She judges me and the rest of our family as heathens by the same outward appearances that those who warm the pews with her every Sunday use to judge people by. She believes and demonstrates that her and her husband are "above" everyone else and they firmly believe that they should be seperate from us. So, both emotionally and physically they have seperated from their families. It has gotten to the point where we can't even speak to her without her quoting Scripture.

Long story short my other sister who is, currently, seperated from her husband who has never claimed a label but does say she believes in God made the mistake, recently, of asking for sisterly advice via email from my Bible thumping sister. She didn't want a sermon and usually avoids the subject of God when talking to her...as anyone who knows them do....but simply said, 'I don't think God wants me to be unhappy"

My better-than-thou sister actually said in response, "God doesn't want you to be happy"  :mshock:

She went into a huge sermon about "self" and how God doesn't care if we're happy or not and that He's actually afraid of us being happy... :msealed:

She then, after saying she didn't have much time, quoted a slew of Scripture....like 4-5 pages worth. And, none of them were even relevant to my sister's seperation from her husband nor about whether or not God wanted us to be happy!

So, it occured to me that my sister who never read the Bible nor claimed any religion had a better handle on God then the Bible thumpin sister.

It is absolutely frightening to see how deluded religion can be! Many, like my deluted sister, cling to religion as an addict does to drugs. They cannot let go of it because they don't believe that their worthy any other way. And, sadly, they give Christianity and/or other religions a bad name. Behind their judgmentalism is a lot of self loathing.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi sister J...  :thumbsup:

The SPIRIT of Religion is a strong one... it is the essence of BABYLON... and God calls His Children to come OUT of it... (Btw - they cant come OUT of something they are not IN)

Pray for your sis J... GOD is in control... sufferings come in many forms... You shall have BOTH your sisters in the end...  :reachout:

:upset:  My heart goes out to you, as my only sister and I are quite at odds with one another at this time... it ain't easy... but I pray for her, knowing our Father has she and I both in His wonderful hands...   :dsunny:

My sister is (pardon the labels) a fundamentalist, evangelical, conservative Christian. Her and I went through years of debating. Although, I claim to be a Christian and read/study the Bible, she maintains that because I smoke, don't go to church and haven't been baptized that I am NOT Christian. She judges me and the rest of our family as heathens by the same outward appearances that those who warm the pews with her every Sunday use to judge people by. She believes and demonstrates that her and her husband are "above" everyone else and they firmly believe that they should be seperate from us. So, both emotionally and physically they have seperated from their families. It has gotten to the point where we can't even speak to her without her quoting Scripture.

Long story short my other sister who is, currently, seperated from her husband who has never claimed a label but does say she believes in God made the mistake, recently, of asking for sisterly advice via email from my Bible thumping sister. She didn't want a sermon and usually avoids the subject of God when talking to her...as anyone who knows them do....but simply said, 'I don't think God wants me to be unhappy"

My better-than-thou sister actually said in response, "God doesn't want you to be happy"  :mshock:

She went into a huge sermon about "self" and how God doesn't care if we're happy or not and that He's actually afraid of us being happy... :msealed:

She then, after saying she didn't have much time, quoted a slew of Scripture....like 4-5 pages worth. And, none of them were even relevant to my sister's seperation from her husband nor about whether or not God wanted us to be happy!

So, it occured to me that my sister who never read the Bible nor claimed any religion had a better handle on God then the Bible thumpin sister.

It is absolutely frightening to see how deluded religion can be! Many, like my deluted sister, cling to religion as an addict does to drugs. They cannot let go of it because they don't believe that their worthy any other way. And, sadly, they give Christianity and/or other religions a bad name. Behind their judgmentalism is a lot of self loathing.

Hang in there my new friend...   :friendstu:

in  JESUS...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[julzabro2]

Thanx....willieH!  :happy3:

And I agree in heaven we're all in His hands!  :Angel7:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi J!   :hithere:

Thanx....willieH!  :happy3:

And I agree in heaven we're all in His hands!  :Angel7:

Sorry for noting you as "brother"  :mblush:

Glad you're here!  :reachout:

Peace new sister...  :icon_flower:

in  JESUS...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[julzabro2]

s'ok many do that.... :girlheart:

[Seeker]

I agree with what Kept stated above...God wants us to think....he is so Awesome!

:boyheart:

SeekerRuth

[julzabro2]

i believe in hell but not as a destination. I think it's symbolic of the flesh. It is school. Apostles sent people to Satan to learn.

[Cindi]

My sister is (pardon the labels) a fundamentalist, evangelical, conservative Christian. Her and I went through years of debating. Although, I claim to be a Christian and read/study the Bible, she maintains that because I smoke, don't go to church and haven't been baptized that I am NOT Christian. She judges me and the rest of our family as heathens by the same outward appearances that those who warm the pews with her every Sunday use to judge people by. She believes and demonstrates that her and her husband are "above" everyone else and they firmly believe that they should be seperate from us. So, both emotionally and physically they have seperated from their families. It has gotten to the point where we can't even speak to her without her quoting Scripture.

Long story short my other sister who is, currently, seperated from her husband who has never claimed a label but does say she believes in God made the mistake, recently, of asking for sisterly advice via email from my Bible thumping sister. She didn't want a sermon and usually avoids the subject of God when talking to her...as anyone who knows them do....but simply said, 'I don't think God wants me to be unhappy"

My better-than-thou sister actually said in response, "God doesn't want you to be happy"  :mshock:

She went into a huge sermon about "self" and how God doesn't care if we're happy or not and that He's actually afraid of us being happy... :msealed:

She then, after saying she didn't have much time, quoted a slew of Scripture....like 4-5 pages worth. And, none of them were even relevant to my sister's seperation from her husband nor about whether or not God wanted us to be happy!

So, it occured to me that my sister who never read the Bible nor claimed any religion had a better handle on God then the Bible thumpin sister.

It is absolutely frightening to see how deluded religion can be! Many, like my deluted sister, cling to religion as an addict does to drugs. They cannot let go of it because they don't believe that their worthy any other way. And, sadly, they give Christianity and/or other religions a bad name. Behind their judgmentalism is a lot of self loathing.

Yesterday on my way to work I heard a Christian song on the radio that I have not heard before.  (If anyone knows the name of the song I would love to know it.  It talks about "I can't believe he still calls me son...and something about taking his name through godless places)  Anyway, at work I was trying to find the lyrics via google and came upon this venomous site that was slamming modern Christian music...rock....rap....but especially "MercyMe" and had quoted the lyrics to a song (can't remember which one) which was a love song to the Lord...but did not specifically mention the Lord (like the Old Rugged Cross does) To the owner of this website, the song was disgraceful...with sexual innuendo and was just about interchangeable with a song written to one's human love interest.  He/she quoted a whole bunch of scripture about pointing out the sin of others, that we are required to do it, that we are to have no fellowship with anyone living in sin/wickedness.  I thought to myself that this person must have never read the Song of Solomon and reflected on its sexual innuendo....and must have forgotten that the Bible refers to us as the bride of Christ. 

I was struck by the mean spiritedness, the nastiness, the joyless view of a relationship with God.  We truly do become like the "god" we serve.  I ran across a quote somewhere in my roaming and reading that says:
We are the angry deity. 

When I read things like the website I mentioned above and the exchange between your sisters, it pains me to think people see God that way.  What a petty little God....and not at all like the God Jesus shows us (the expressed image of the invisible God....if you have seen me you have seen the father) They are displaying the very attitude that Jesus most vehemently spoke out against.  I wonder when it is all said and done, which of your sisters will truly have the most repenting to do. 


Cindi........

Mercy Not Sacrifice

[julzabro2]

I believe that the sister who isn't trying to DO things to be righteous before God yet know He loves her and wants her to be happy is in way better standing than the sister who has condemned the world. It's the Martha and Mary story!   :laughing7:

It saddens me that my sister and so many others who, I feel, are addicted to religion continue giving God a bad name.  :sigh:

I agree....mercy NOT sacrifice. Thanks for your story.  :thumbsup:

[Transponder]

Well, friends. i'm glad i read all that. It was an eye - opener, I can tell you. funny too. I mean witty, not silly. '6 day creation gets the atheists riled up'  :grin:

I don't believe for a moment in hell. Not in the sense of some gulag or boot camp that God sends us to for being what he created. Beastly idea.

I am pleased that you could shed that terrible burden of fear that hell-belief imposes. I never had it myself but some ex-theists say that they will never entirely be rid of it.

About a heaven, I am agnostic. it would be rather nice to think there was one, though I'm not sure what I'd do for all eternity that I wouldn't get tired of (1) if there is an afterlife, reason tells me that it will be for all. It will as natural as being born, growing and dying. Those do not select who will be born or die because of the way they think or what Gods they worship. Not on the evidence, anyway.


(1) don't tell me worshipping God. I did that as a kid in the local Church choir and a couple of hours was more than enough, thanks.

[Sarah]

(1) don't tell me worshipping God. I did that as a kid in the local Church choir and a couple of hours was more than enough, thanks.

:laughing7:  been there.

I too wonder what the afterlife will be like....if their isn't one then it seems life is unfair, unjust, and pointless for the individual...what a cruel trick of mother nature to develop a being able to show mercy and die the same death as the cruel.

[Transponder]

Well, I'm rather 'potter and clay' with regard to what hand nature has dealt us. If it doesn't see fit to provide an afterlife, then I'll make the best of what life I  have.

[Sarah]

Well, I'm rather 'potter and clay' with regard to what hand nature has dealt us. If it doesn't see fit to provide an afterlife, then I'll make the best of what life I  have.

I suppose that is a great attitude....I guess I think too much.  I think of the people who didn't have the choice to make the best of their life;  the child who has been molested/murdered.....kind of sucks for them...no justice.  Maybe in some sort of theorical way in that maybe what they went through brought light to a problem and helped others....but none the less that person was screwed.  And I guess it doesn't really matter if all is random...without meaning.  Being an athiest seems kind of depressing to me....but maybe better than many religions..who knows?

[Transponder]

Very perceptive. Atheism, despite what I have read by one or two theist writers, is not an Easy Option. It is forced on some that cannot ignore very real doubts about whether religion is believable. It is very easy to duck back under the secutity blanket. 'Who knows for sure?', 'Without religion there would be no morality - we need it, true or not'. 'Being an atheist in a believing world is too tough'. 'What would my parents/spouse/neighbours say?'

Apart from all that, the atheist is faced with a person question about their life, morality, what anchors in a world that has lost its moorings. Everything is up for question; there is no easy answer 'Be a good boy or God will be annoyed' and the idividul cannot escape responsibility for making their own decisions.

the child who has been molested/murdered.....kind of sucks for them...no justice.

Those things are tough and more so if one cannot take the bromides of 'they are with God, now; the evildoers will Get Theirs in due time'. The unbeliver is consumed with the immensity of injustice in the worls and the monumental need for people to start being tolerant and fair towards one another in this life, because it may be the only one they have.

Still, there are compensations. Very great ones. Once one loses one's spiritual Agoraphobia, the view of the great outdoors is breathtaking.   

[Sarah]

Atheism, ....., is not an Easy Option.

I would certainly agree.  I thought it true for awhile and felt sick and nauseous and unfathomly alone.  I just thought of Dr. House referring to Him as an 'imaginary friend'...not a good feeling.

It is very easy to duck back under the secutity blanket. 'Who knows for sure?', 'Without religion there would be no morality - we need it, true or not'. 'Being an atheist in a believing world is too tough'. 'What would my parents/spouse/neighbours say?'

I tend to despise religion...not my belief in God as my friend...but the system.  And yes, being different is hard...but denying what you believe is harder.

the atheist is faced with a personal question about their life, morality, what anchors in a world that has lost its moorings. Everything is up for question; there is no easy answer 'Be a good boy or God will be annoyed' and the idividul cannot escape responsibility for making their own decisions.

What does anchor you?  I tend to think the world didn't have 'moorings' and is getting better...just my perception.

Now that I don't believe in a God who punishes with fire and brimstone...the question of morality and why I do good and evil is more pronounced.  My motivation isn't to please someone or to avoid punishment (most of the time  :laughing7:)...but rather because I care for my brother and myself and do not want negative consequences heralded on them and myself due to poor choices. 

The unbeliver is consumed with the immensity of injustice in the worls and the monumental need for people to start being tolerant and fair towards one another in this life, because it may be the only one they have.

I think this would be crushing....almost like the preacher telling the pew warmer that they have bloody hands because they haven't convinced the world of the trinity.

Still, there are compensations. Very great ones. Once one loses one's spiritual Agoraphobia, the view of the great outdoors is breathtaking. 

I am curious as to the compensations....I fail to see them...not trying to be negative...just very curious.

Sarah

[Transponder]

Atheism, ....., is not an Easy Option.

I would certainly agree.  I thought it true for awhile and felt sick and nauseous and unfathomly alone.  I just thought of Dr. House referring to Him as an 'imaginary friend'...not a good feeling.

It is very easy to duck back under the secutity blanket. 'Who knows for sure?', 'Without religion there would be no morality - we need it, true or not'. 'Being an atheist in a believing world is too tough'. 'What would my parents/spouse/neighbours say?'

I tend to despise religion...not my belief in God as my friend...but the system.  And yes, being different is hard...but denying what you believe is harder.

first, I apologize for my spelling. My typing gets worse as the white letters get worn off my keypad  :laugh: . Yes; you have to go with what you believe. I suppose I just ask why one believes anything. What are the criteria for belief. That's off topic and a big, fat, 'nother thread.

the atheist is faced with a personal question about their life, morality, what anchors in a world that has lost its moorings. Everything is up for question; there is no easy answer 'Be a good boy or God will be annoyed' and the idividul cannot escape responsibility for making their own decisions.

What does anchor you?  I tend to think the world didn't have 'moorings' and is getting better...just my perception.

If I catch your thought, this is about where do morals come from, if not from God? The atheist view is that it is demonstrably not true that there can be no morals without God. In fact, humans have developed morals in countries that had other gods and in times that had never heard of God. I suppose the rejoinder would be that they got the morals from God but didn't know it.

Now that I don't believe in a God who punishes with fire and brimstone...the question of morality and why I do good and evil is more pronounced.  My motivation isn't to please someone or to avoid punishment (most of the time  :laughing7:)...but rather because I care for my brother and myself and do not want negative consequences heralded on them and myself due to poor choices.

That's the same reasoning as those that use humanist ethics. The religious-based morality is easier as it is based on stick and carrot. Humanist morality faces us with temptation as strong as a Priest with an altar-boy; if there is no hell, what is to prevent me doing whatever I like? Purely personal concern for my fellow man, both here and now and in the future. And who is my fellow man? Not just my brother or my tribe. It is everyone. I didn't need Luke to tell me that.  

The unbeliver is consumed with the immensity of injustice in the worls and the monumental need for people to start being tolerant and fair towards one another in this life, because it may be the only one they have.

I think this would be crushing....almost like the preacher telling the pew warmer that they have bloody hands because they haven't convinced the world of the trinity.

In some ways, I suppose, the idea that the universe is essentially meaningless and one day it will all go 'phut' is some cold comfort. No, it isn't either. I think of the women and kids that died at Nanking, or Acre or Tenochtitlan and there is nothing to be done. Their lives were wasted by those with an Idea and a conviction of their superiority and the view that the 'others' deserved all they got. Still, my will to do some good is limited. I can only do a bit. I've been sitting here typing and deleting trying to encapsulate what needs three pages of posts to explain. Let's just set out the Platinum rule (which is a little better than the Golden one)

Do your own thing, provided that it is not messing up anyone else's 'thing'.

Still, there are compensations. Very great ones. Once one loses one's spiritual Agoraphobia, the view of the great outdoors is breathtaking. 

I am curious as to the compensations....I fail to see them...not trying to be negative...just very curious.

Sarah

Let me try to recall what ex-theists saw as the advantages once they came out of religious cold-turkey.

I could stop tying to believe what was was not believable.

I could see nature as what it was rather than a neon sign advertising God.

I could look at all questions objectively instead of making them fit a religious pre-requisites.

I could shed the burden of Sin.