Well, I'm yet a hell believer... But After a search on the internet I got on this thread in a forum... called Ex Christian
http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=7197
Don't misunderstand me ... I'm not advertising this website. It unites people that were Christians but no longer are now... And one of the top reasons for this is hell...
And yes, I still believe in it... Please, don't jump on me because of that...But I admit that hell doctrine is one of the very top reasons ( if not the top one for rejecting Christianity )...
I would like to repost something that touched me very deeply in my heart...
QuoteNothing could add to the horror of hell, except the presence of its creator, God. While I have life, as long as I draw breath, I shall deny with all my strength, and hate with every drop of my blood, this infinite lie. I would not for my life destroy one star of human hope, but I want it so that when a poor woman rocks the cradle and sings a lullaby to the dimpled darling, she will not be compelled to believe that ninety-nine chances in a hundred she is raising kindling wood for hell.
If there is a God who will damn his children forever, I would rather go to hell than to go to heaven and keep the society of such an infamous tyrant. I make my choice now. I despise that doctrine. It has covered the cheeks of this world with tears. It has polluted the hearts of children, and poisoned the imaginations of men.... What right have you, sir, Mr. clergyman, you, minister of the gospel to stand at the portals of the tomb, at the vestibule of eternity, and fill the future with horror and with fear? I do not believe this doctrine, neither do you. If you did, you could not sleep one moment. Any man who believes it, and has within his breast a decent, throbbing heart, will go insane. A man who believes that doctrine and does not go insane has the heart of a snake and the conscience of a hyena.
Hi B_T
This is also one of the main reasons for Agnostics and Atheists. It goes against all logic.
If you have the time, I recommend reading this Doctrine of Retribution History (http://tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=110.0)
Like many things it is something to unlearn but only you can let go. Believe me it is a huge burden lifted.
There is a study I read on Mystery Babylon depicting the history of the church upto today. It is not a UR site, PM me and I will give you the link.
Much tradition in Protestant/Reformed churches today originate from the RCC. Some RCC doctrines have been dropped but others strongly held onto.
Blessings
By RCC you mean Roman Catholic Church, right?
Yes, it goes against logic... This is the doctrine that mostly keeps people away from God... Darwin writes about it as "damnable doctrine"...
So there are two options
1. There is no eternal punishment in the lake of fire
2. The lake of fire is misunderstood
Most people ( including the pastor in the Pentecostal church I go ) hold the second option. You choose to be without God, and flames and undying worms are metaphoric picture of your regret for choosing to be without God in eternity.
QuoteNothing could add to the horror of hell, except the presence of its creator, God. While I have life, as long as I draw breath, I shall deny with all my strength, and hate with every drop of my blood, this infinite lie. I would not for my life destroy one star of human hope, but I want it so that when a poor woman rocks the cradle and sings a lullaby to the dimpled darling, she will not be compelled to believe that ninety-nine chances in a hundred she is raising kindling wood for hell.
I agree with all the other parts of this paper too. But, the loving mother versus unloving god really gave me a mind picture of god I hadn't really looked at before. Well, I had, but just the way this was worded gave me food for thought.
You are among friends,B_T. The depression and suicidal tendecies I suffered were because of the hell doctrine. In 2005, after many months of study, I woke up one morning and knew that God would never send any of his creation to hellfire. Hang in there, you are here for a reason and God is showing you doubts about hell because He wants you to keep asking, searching and seeking. Tentmaker's is a good place to come if you want answers/color]
Quote from: B_T on August 09, 2007, 10:23:56 PM
So there are two options
1. There is no eternal punishment in the lake of fire
2. The lake of fire is misunderstood
Most people ( including the pastor in the Pentecostal church I go ) hold the second option. You choose to be without God, and flames and undying worms are metaphoric picture of your regret for choosing to be without God in eternity.
Hell is one of the most misunderstood parts of scripture, the word hell didn't even come into being till the 1500's and anyhow refers to a pit in the ground for storing perishables, prior to refrigeration.
Hell = Gehenna, Sheol, Hades Hinnom is not the same as the Lake of Fire.
Read up in the hell board the links are there all about where this doctrine originated from.
Blessings
Yes, I have read all these articles about Hell ...
And it seems that modern churches are aware of the nature of Geheena and they think it will be a lake of fire that will last forever and ever...
So the Christianity has a BIG paradox...
1. God is Good, God is Love... Yes, we can't reject it, because the Bible says that God is love and we see Jesus doing things because he loves people. He heals, for example...
2. And 90% of people on this Earth will end in the Lake of fire and will burn there for ever and ever amen.
This is something disturbing...
I hope this doesnt sound horrible but honestly I think most agnostics and athiests that have wrestled with the eternal tormenting God view are closer to God than those that never have. Why is it such a sin to actually THINK?
God Himself invites us to come and reason with Him.
Asking these tough questions might get you kicked out of a church or turn you off to christianity and that is why it is so important that this message get out to those folks whom know in their knower God is not this monster that has been portrayed to them and that there are those that believe in a God of love and mercy that His wrath is on all sin but for the sake of transforming all His children till they look just like Him.
God bless
kept
Quote from: Kept on August 10, 2007, 05:24:55 PM
I hope this doesnt sound horrible but honestly I think most agnostics and athiests that have wrestled with the eternal tormenting God view are closer to God than those that never have. Why is it such a sin to actually THINK?
God Himself invites us to come and reason with Him.
Asking these tough questions might get you kicked out of a church or turn you off to christianity and that is why it is so important that this message get out to those folks whom know in their knower God is not this monster that has been portrayed to them and that there are those that believe in a God of love and mercy that His wrath is on all sin but for the sake of transforming all His children till they look just like Him.
I must agree. They at least search the scriptures and 99% of the time have a better knowledge than most Christians. When you throw not hell in their face they are pleasant to debate with, most I have spoken to respect my open views, now 6-day creation really gets them riled up.
BIC
I think the real problem is here ( especially in this Charismatic movement ):
God loves us... He really loves us. We feel his love, we sing in the Spirit, we pray in the Spirit. Oh well, it's all that world, they are too blind to see that God is great... We must go to the world, invite them, tell them that if they don't accept Christianity, they'll go to hell and nothing can save them.
There's yet another *big paradox* in my small country and it's because our traditional faith is Eastern Orthodox Christianity. Then we had all these evangelisators shouting here and where trying to evangelise traditional Orthodox Christians: "Your faith is wrong, turn to Jesus now, repent, or go to hell". The situation grew worse in 20 years and we have thousands of churches here - Pentecostals, United Church of God type 1, United Church of God type 2, God's Church, New Generation, Shalom, and so on... and so on...
Each Church show differences but almost everywhere the situation is the same: arrogant and hypocritical people talking behind your back and shouting: "We are saved, we are the very few chosen ones..." Disturbing, isn't that?
I had a girlfriend who has rejected Christianity because of this very same reason... Now it turns that even people in the World ( unchosen, unsaved, going to hell ) are better and showing more love than people in the Church ( chosen, saved, very few lambs for God ). I have heard a statement: "Oh, look at these people. They are very good and helpful, but they are going to Hell. That's right. There will be good people in hell." I said this statement to a person in my University and he said to me: "Is that true? Do you really preach that good people will go to Hell?". "Well, that's true", I said...
My sister is (pardon the labels) a fundamentalist, evangelical, conservative Christian. Her and I went through years of debating. Although, I claim to be a Christian and read/study the Bible, she maintains that because I smoke, don't go to church and haven't been baptized that I am NOT Christian. She judges me and the rest of our family as heathens by the same outward appearances that those who warm the pews with her every Sunday use to judge people by. She believes and demonstrates that her and her husband are "above" everyone else and they firmly believe that they should be seperate from us. So, both emotionally and physically they have seperated from their families. It has gotten to the point where we can't even speak to her without her quoting Scripture.
Long story short my other sister who is, currently, seperated from her husband who has never claimed a label but does say she believes in God made the mistake, recently, of asking for sisterly advice via email from my Bible thumping sister. She didn't want a sermon and usually avoids the subject of God when talking to her...as anyone who knows them do....but simply said, 'I don't think God wants me to be unhappy"
My better-than-thou sister actually said in response, "God doesn't want you to be happy" :mshock:
She went into a huge sermon about "self" and how God doesn't care if we're happy or not and that He's actually afraid of us being happy... :msealed:
She then, after saying she didn't have much time, quoted a slew of Scripture....like 4-5 pages worth. And, none of them were even relevant to my sister's seperation from her husband nor about whether or not God wanted us to be happy!
So, it occured to me that my sister who never read the Bible nor claimed any religion had a better handle on God then the Bible thumpin sister.
It is absolutely frightening to see how deluded religion can be! Many, like my deluted sister, cling to religion as an addict does to drugs. They cannot let go of it because they don't believe that their worthy any other way. And, sadly, they give Christianity and/or other religions a bad name. Behind their judgmentalism is a lot of self loathing.
willieH: Hi sister J... :thumbsup:
The SPIRIT of Religion is a strong one... it is the essence of BABYLON... and God calls His Children to come OUT of it... (Btw - they cant come OUT of something they are not IN)
Pray for your sis J... GOD is in control... sufferings come in many forms... You shall have BOTH your sisters in the end... :reachout:
:upset: My heart goes out to you, as my only sister and I are quite at odds with one another at this time... it ain't easy... but I pray for her, knowing our Father has she and I both in His wonderful hands... :dsunny:
Quote from: julzabro2 on August 15, 2007, 01:37:12 AM
My sister is (pardon the labels) a fundamentalist, evangelical, conservative Christian. Her and I went through years of debating. Although, I claim to be a Christian and read/study the Bible, she maintains that because I smoke, don't go to church and haven't been baptized that I am NOT Christian. She judges me and the rest of our family as heathens by the same outward appearances that those who warm the pews with her every Sunday use to judge people by. She believes and demonstrates that her and her husband are "above" everyone else and they firmly believe that they should be seperate from us. So, both emotionally and physically they have seperated from their families. It has gotten to the point where we can't even speak to her without her quoting Scripture.
Long story short my other sister who is, currently, seperated from her husband who has never claimed a label but does say she believes in God made the mistake, recently, of asking for sisterly advice via email from my Bible thumping sister. She didn't want a sermon and usually avoids the subject of God when talking to her...as anyone who knows them do....but simply said, 'I don't think God wants me to be unhappy"
My better-than-thou sister actually said in response, "God doesn't want you to be happy" :mshock:
She went into a huge sermon about "self" and how God doesn't care if we're happy or not and that He's actually afraid of us being happy... :msealed:
She then, after saying she didn't have much time, quoted a slew of Scripture....like 4-5 pages worth. And, none of them were even relevant to my sister's seperation from her husband nor about whether or not God wanted us to be happy!
So, it occured to me that my sister who never read the Bible nor claimed any religion had a better handle on God then the Bible thumpin sister.
It is absolutely frightening to see how deluded religion can be! Many, like my deluted sister, cling to religion as an addict does to drugs. They cannot let go of it because they don't believe that their worthy any other way. And, sadly, they give Christianity and/or other religions a bad name. Behind their judgmentalism is a lot of self loathing.
Hang in there my new friend... :friendstu:
in
JESUS
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Thanx....willieH! :happy3:
And I agree in heaven we're all in His hands! :Angel7:
willieH: Hi J! :hithere:
Quote from: julzabro2 on August 15, 2007, 02:48:13 AM
Thanx....willieH! :happy3:
And I agree in heaven we're all in His hands! :Angel7:
Sorry for noting you as "brother" :mblush:
Glad you're here! :reachout:
Peace new sister... :icon_flower:
in
JESUS
...willieH :HeartThrob:
s'ok many do that.... :girlheart:
I agree with what Kept stated above...God wants us to think....he is so Awesome!
:boyheart:
SeekerRuth
i believe in hell but not as a destination. I think it's symbolic of the flesh. It is school. Apostles sent people to Satan to learn.
Quote from: julzabro2 on August 15, 2007, 01:37:12 AM
My sister is (pardon the labels) a fundamentalist, evangelical, conservative Christian. Her and I went through years of debating. Although, I claim to be a Christian and read/study the Bible, she maintains that because I smoke, don't go to church and haven't been baptized that I am NOT Christian. She judges me and the rest of our family as heathens by the same outward appearances that those who warm the pews with her every Sunday use to judge people by. She believes and demonstrates that her and her husband are "above" everyone else and they firmly believe that they should be seperate from us. So, both emotionally and physically they have seperated from their families. It has gotten to the point where we can't even speak to her without her quoting Scripture.
Long story short my other sister who is, currently, seperated from her husband who has never claimed a label but does say she believes in God made the mistake, recently, of asking for sisterly advice via email from my Bible thumping sister. She didn't want a sermon and usually avoids the subject of God when talking to her...as anyone who knows them do....but simply said, 'I don't think God wants me to be unhappy"
My better-than-thou sister actually said in response, "God doesn't want you to be happy" :mshock:
She went into a huge sermon about "self" and how God doesn't care if we're happy or not and that He's actually afraid of us being happy... :msealed:
She then, after saying she didn't have much time, quoted a slew of Scripture....like 4-5 pages worth. And, none of them were even relevant to my sister's seperation from her husband nor about whether or not God wanted us to be happy!
So, it occured to me that my sister who never read the Bible nor claimed any religion had a better handle on God then the Bible thumpin sister.
It is absolutely frightening to see how deluded religion can be! Many, like my deluted sister, cling to religion as an addict does to drugs. They cannot let go of it because they don't believe that their worthy any other way. And, sadly, they give Christianity and/or other religions a bad name. Behind their judgmentalism is a lot of self loathing.
Yesterday on my way to work I heard a Christian song on the radio that I have not heard before. (If anyone knows the name of the song I would love to know it. It talks about "I can't believe he still calls me son...and something about taking his name through godless places) Anyway, at work I was trying to find the lyrics via google and came upon this venomous site that was slamming modern Christian music...rock....rap....but especially "MercyMe" and had quoted the lyrics to a song (can't remember which one) which was a love song to the Lord...but did not specifically mention the Lord (like the Old Rugged Cross does) To the owner of this website, the song was disgraceful...with sexual innuendo and was just about interchangeable with a song written to one's human love interest. He/she quoted a whole bunch of scripture about pointing out the sin of others, that we are required to do it, that we are to have no fellowship with anyone living in sin/wickedness. I thought to myself that this person must have never read the Song of Solomon and reflected on its sexual innuendo....and must have forgotten that the Bible refers to us as the bride of Christ.
I was struck by the mean spiritedness, the nastiness, the joyless view of a relationship with God. We truly do become like the "god" we serve. I ran across a quote somewhere in my roaming and reading that says:
We are the angry deity.
When I read things like the website I mentioned above and the exchange between your sisters, it pains me to think people see God that way. What a petty little God....and not at all like the God Jesus shows us (the expressed image of the invisible God....if you have seen me you have seen the father) They are displaying the very attitude that Jesus most vehemently spoke out against. I wonder when it is all said and done, which of your sisters will truly have the most repenting to do.
Cindi........
Mercy Not Sacrifice (http://mercynotsacrifice.blogspot.com/)
I believe that the sister who isn't trying to DO things to be righteous before God yet know He loves her and wants her to be happy is in way better standing than the sister who has condemned the world. It's the Martha and Mary story! :laughing7:
It saddens me that my sister and so many others who, I feel, are addicted to religion continue giving God a bad name. :sigh:
I agree....mercy NOT sacrifice. Thanks for your story. :thumbsup:
Well, friends. i'm glad i read all that. It was an eye - opener, I can tell you. funny too. I mean witty, not silly. '6 day creation gets the atheists riled up' :grin:
I don't believe for a moment in hell. Not in the sense of some gulag or boot camp that God sends us to for being what he created. Beastly idea.
I am pleased that you could shed that terrible burden of fear that hell-belief imposes. I never had it myself but some ex-theists say that they will never entirely be rid of it.
About a heaven, I am agnostic. it would be rather nice to think there was one, though I'm not sure what I'd do for all eternity that I wouldn't get tired of (1) if there is an afterlife, reason tells me that it will be for all. It will as natural as being born, growing and dying. Those do not select who will be born or die because of the way they think or what Gods they worship. Not on the evidence, anyway.
(1) don't tell me worshipping God. I did that as a kid in the local Church choir and a couple of hours was more than enough, thanks.
Quote
(1) don't tell me worshipping God. I did that as a kid in the local Church choir and a couple of hours was more than enough, thanks.
:laughing7: been there.
I too wonder what the afterlife will be like....if their isn't one then it seems life is unfair, unjust, and pointless for the individual...what a cruel trick of mother nature to develop a being able to show mercy and die the same death as the cruel.
Well, I'm rather 'potter and clay' with regard to what hand nature has dealt us. If it doesn't see fit to provide an afterlife, then I'll make the best of what life I have.
QuoteWell, I'm rather 'potter and clay' with regard to what hand nature has dealt us. If it doesn't see fit to provide an afterlife, then I'll make the best of what life I have.
I suppose that is a great attitude....I guess I think too much. I think of the people who didn't have the choice to make the best of their life; the child who has been molested/murdered.....kind of sucks for them...no justice. Maybe in some sort of theorical way in that maybe what they went through brought light to a problem and helped others....but none the less that person was screwed. And I guess it doesn't really matter if all is random...without meaning. Being an athiest seems kind of depressing to me....but maybe better than many religions..who knows?
Very perceptive. Atheism, despite what I have read by one or two theist writers, is not an Easy Option. It is forced on some that cannot ignore very real doubts about whether religion is believable. It is very easy to duck back under the secutity blanket. 'Who knows for sure?', 'Without religion there would be no morality - we need it, true or not'. 'Being an atheist in a believing world is too tough'. 'What would my parents/spouse/neighbours say?'
Apart from all that, the atheist is faced with a person question about their life, morality, what anchors in a world that has lost its moorings. Everything is up for question; there is no easy answer 'Be a good boy or God will be annoyed' and the idividul cannot escape responsibility for making their own decisions.
Quotethe child who has been molested/murdered.....kind of sucks for them...no justice.
Those things are tough and more so if one cannot take the bromides of 'they are with God, now; the evildoers will Get Theirs in due time'. The unbeliver is consumed with the immensity of injustice in the worls and the monumental need for people to start being tolerant and fair towards one another in this life, because it may be the only one they have.
Still, there are compensations. Very great ones. Once one loses one's spiritual Agoraphobia, the view of the great outdoors is breathtaking.
QuoteAtheism, ....., is not an Easy Option.
I would certainly agree. I thought it true for awhile and felt sick and nauseous and unfathomly alone. I just thought of Dr. House referring to Him as an 'imaginary friend'...not a good feeling.
QuoteIt is very easy to duck back under the secutity blanket. 'Who knows for sure?', 'Without religion there would be no morality - we need it, true or not'. 'Being an atheist in a believing world is too tough'. 'What would my parents/spouse/neighbours say?'
I tend to despise religion...not my belief in God as my friend...but the system. And yes, being different is hard...but denying what you believe is harder.
Quotethe atheist is faced with a personal question about their life, morality, what anchors in a world that has lost its moorings. Everything is up for question; there is no easy answer 'Be a good boy or God will be annoyed' and the idividul cannot escape responsibility for making their own decisions.
What does anchor you? I tend to think the world didn't have 'moorings' and is getting better...just my perception.
Now that I don't believe in a God who punishes with fire and brimstone...the question of morality and why I do good and evil is more pronounced. My motivation isn't to please someone or to avoid punishment (most of the time :laughing7:)...but rather because I care for my brother and myself and do not want negative consequences heralded on them and myself due to poor choices.
QuoteThe unbeliver is consumed with the immensity of injustice in the worls and the monumental need for people to start being tolerant and fair towards one another in this life, because it may be the only one they have.
I think this would be crushing....almost like the preacher telling the pew warmer that they have bloody hands because they haven't convinced the world of the trinity.
QuoteStill, there are compensations. Very great ones. Once one loses one's spiritual Agoraphobia, the view of the great outdoors is breathtaking.
I am curious as to the compensations....I fail to see them...not trying to be negative...just very curious.
Sarah
Quote from: Sarah on September 09, 2007, 07:44:08 PM
QuoteAtheism, ....., is not an Easy Option.
QuoteI would certainly agree. I thought it true for awhile and felt sick and nauseous and unfathomly alone. I just thought of Dr. House referring to Him as an 'imaginary friend'...not a good feeling.
QuoteIt is very easy to duck back under the secutity blanket. 'Who knows for sure?', 'Without religion there would be no morality - we need it, true or not'. 'Being an atheist in a believing world is too tough'. 'What would my parents/spouse/neighbours say?'
QuoteI tend to despise religion...not my belief in God as my friend...but the system. And yes, being different is hard...but denying what you believe is harder.
first, I apologize for my spelling. My typing gets worse as the white letters get worn off my keypad :laugh: . Yes; you have to go with what you believe. I suppose I just ask why one believes anything. What are the criteria for belief. That's off topic and a big, fat, 'nother thread.
Quotethe atheist is faced with a personal question about their life, morality, what anchors in a world that has lost its moorings. Everything is up for question; there is no easy answer 'Be a good boy or God will be annoyed' and the idividul cannot escape responsibility for making their own decisions.
QuoteWhat does anchor you? I tend to think the world didn't have 'moorings' and is getting better...just my perception.
If I catch your thought, this is about where do morals come from, if not from God? The atheist view is that it is demonstrably not true that there can be no morals without God. In fact, humans have developed morals in countries that had other gods and in times that had never heard of God. I suppose the rejoinder would be that they got the morals from God but didn't know it.
QuoteNow that I don't believe in a God who punishes with fire and brimstone...the question of morality and why I do good and evil is more pronounced. My motivation isn't to please someone or to avoid punishment (most of the time :laughing7:)...but rather because I care for my brother and myself and do not want negative consequences heralded on them and myself due to poor choices.
That's the same reasoning as those that use humanist ethics. The religious-based morality is easier as it is based on stick and carrot. Humanist morality faces us with temptation as strong as a Priest with an altar-boy; if there is no hell, what is to prevent me doing whatever I like? Purely personal concern for my fellow man, both here and now and in the future. And who is my fellow man? Not just my brother or my tribe. It is everyone. I didn't need Luke to tell me that.
QuoteThe unbeliver is consumed with the immensity of injustice in the worls and the monumental need for people to start being tolerant and fair towards one another in this life, because it may be the only one they have.
QuoteI think this would be crushing....almost like the preacher telling the pew warmer that they have bloody hands because they haven't convinced the world of the trinity.
In some ways, I suppose, the idea that the universe is essentially meaningless and one day it will all go 'phut' is some cold comfort. No, it isn't either. I think of the women and kids that died at Nanking, or Acre or Tenochtitlan and there is nothing to be done. Their lives were wasted by those with an Idea and a conviction of their superiority and the view that the 'others' deserved all they got. Still, my will to do some good is limited. I can only do a bit. I've been sitting here typing and deleting trying to encapsulate what needs three pages of posts to explain. Let's just set out the Platinum rule (which is a little better than the Golden one)
Do your own thing, provided that it is not messing up anyone else's 'thing'.
QuoteStill, there are compensations. Very great ones. Once one loses one's spiritual Agoraphobia, the view of the great outdoors is breathtaking.
QuoteI am curious as to the compensations....I fail to see them...not trying to be negative...just very curious.
Sarah
Let me try to recall what ex-theists saw as the advantages once they came out of religious cold-turkey.
I could stop tying to believe what was was not believable.
I could see nature as what it was rather than a neon sign advertising God.
I could look at all questions objectively instead of making them fit a religious pre-requisites.
I could shed the burden of Sin.
I had just the opposite reaction that you mentioned about the great outdoors. When I came to faith in Christ, it seemed that all of the colors were more vivid and the world around me was so much more spectacular. I just kind of took nature for granted before, but now the ability to praise my Creator as I experience His creation makes it all worth taking the time to slow down and drink it all in.
I, also, would love to hear what you mean by the compensations.
Also, if you do not mind, I never understood how a person could really be an atheist. An agnostic I can understand because if you have never experienced God, you just are not sure if He exists.
Obviously, I can understand being a believer because you have experienced God.
But how can a person be an atheist and say that they know for sure that God does not exist? It would seem that all you can say is that you have had no evidence YET to convince you that He is real. How can anyone be sure of the non-existence of something they have not experienced?
For example, I can say I believe in UFOs if I have seen one. Or, I can say that I am not sure since I have never seen one. But, how can anyone be sure that there are no UFOs just because they have not seen one when so many others say that they have. The best you could be would be a UFO agnostic.
John
Quote from: Kratos on September 10, 2007, 09:02:30 AM
I had just the opposite reaction that you mentioned about the great outdoors. When I came to faith in Christ, it seemed that all of the colors were more vivid and the world around me was so much more spectacular. I just kind of took nature for granted before, but now the ability to praise my Creator as I experience His creation makes it all worth taking the time to slow down and drink it all in.
As to that, I can only guess as I am just repeating what ex-believers have told me. as I recall, one wrote that before deconverting, nature was just a placard advertising God, after deconverting, it became so much more on its own terms.
QuoteI, also, would love to hear what you mean by the compensations.
As I say, I can only repeat what deconverts have said. However, I can personally vouch for the pleasure of being able to look at all matters objectively instead of accepting or rejecting according to what is in the Bible. I also had something rather like a deconversion experience when I was reacing comparitive religion and came to see that that there was no special reason to take the claims of christianity seriously. it was like a great weight of Sin had fallen from my back. You know; I can understand what Paul felt about shedding the sin-burden of the Mosaic law. Unfortunately, he imposed another in its place.
QuoteAlso, if you do not mind, I never understood how a person could really be an atheist. An agnostic I can understand because if you have never experienced God, you just are not sure if He exists.
Obviously, I can understand being a believer because you have experienced God.
But how can a person be an atheist and say that they know for sure that God does not exist? It would seem that all you can say is that you have had no evidence YET to convince you that He is real. How can anyone be sure of the non-existence of something they have not experienced?.
I think I mentioned this in a post to..ah, my memory...I'll check. Anyway, agnosticism is the basis of atheism. It is saying 'I do not know, so I will not believe it until I do know', rather than 'I do not know, so I will believe it until it is proved wrong'.
That's almost too simple as there are matters of strong and weak atheism, the burden of proof and special pleading. All things that I would be happy to discuss if you wanted to start a thread on 'Atheism, and what's wrong with it.'
QuoteFor example, I can say I believe in UFOs if I have seen one. Or, I can say that I am not sure since I have never seen one. But, how can anyone be sure that there are no UFOs just because they have not seen one when so many others say that they have. The best you could be would be a UFO agnostic.
John
Someone raised this asking what I would believe if I saw a ghost. I may say that I have looked at UFO's in rather the way I looked at the Jesus story. let's say that think there is a real phenomenon there, but what it is, I can't say. The et theory doesn't work, and the galactic places given by alien contacts are absurd. It is possible to argue using the 'who knows what technology the aliens use' argument, in the same way as god-belief is supported by the god of the gaps argument. Perforce, I have to say that something more concrete is needed before I can sign up to UFOs, ghosts, alternative medicine or religion. I have to be agnostic about all those things and, as i say, agnosticism is the foundation of atheism; I repeat:
It is saying 'I do not know, so I will not believe it until I do know', rather than 'I do not know, so I will believe it until it is proved wrong'.
Thanks for the replies. I do think that the accepted definition of an agnostic is one who does not know if there is a God or not and an atheist is one who claims to know that there is no God. But, I suppose you can certainly define yourselve as you wish.
You can certainly start a thread if you like, but I don't see it going anywhere here since most UR believers know that a person can never come to the knowledge of God through intellectual searching or debate. Since God is a sentient Being and not an idea, you cannot be made to meet Him like you would learn to accept a philosophy or a religion. You either have met Him so you know He is real or you have not met Him yet so you cannot know that He is real. No one can convince another of what is an exerience unless they have had the experience and no convincing is necessary.
Best to you,
John
Quote from: Kratos on September 10, 2007, 10:35:29 AM
Thanks for the replies. I do think that the accepted definition of an agnostic is one who does not know if there is a God or not and an atheist is one who claims to know that there is no God. But, I suppose you can certainly define yourselve as you wish.
You are quite correct; there are many atheists who take the 'strong atheism' view - that they 'know' there is no God. The 'weak' atheists see that as an untenable logical position, and one that is duly picked up and discredited by theists. Certainly, when I started posting on AN I had the view that an agnostic was one that believed in 'god' but did not know what it was like. An atheist was one that didn't think there was a god. I was soon picked up on that.
Again, the concepts matter more than the labels. When we look at what we 'know' it can be contested. I have never seen a whale but i have convincing evidence for their existence. I went to nepal once and never saw the Himalayas, though I looked out for them. But I don't doubt their existence. Again, there is a difference between believing in 'A' god (something like pantheism or the god of Einstein; intelligent nature or just ordered laws of the universe - not a personal god) and the God of the Bible, which is another matter altogether. There are definite claims made and it becomes testable. The results do not persuade me.
The belief in a sort of agnostic, deist god is one that I do not feel very strongly about. My view would be that it is not so much to be disproved but that it does not need an organized religion and, when I come to think about it, organized religion is what I do feel strongly about.
QuoteYou can certainly start a thread if you like, but I don't see it going anywhere here since most UR believers know that a person can never come to the knowledge of God through intellectual searching or debate. Since God is a sentient Being and not an idea, you cannot be made to meet Him like you would learn to accept a philosophy or a religion. You either have met Him so you know He is real or you have not met Him yet so you cannot know that He is real. No one can convince another of what is an exerience unless they have had the experience and no convincing is necessary.
Best to you,
John
Yes. That is what it comes down to: not logical proofs or tests (how many of you, getting locked out of your house get in by the power of prayer?) but an inner conviction. some say that, even if the Bible was discredited entirely, they would still believe in this god-in-the -head. The Bible is not a puzzle for me as it can be examined; but the nature of this personally experienced god is a puzzle.
I don't propose to start a thread on this, but, if one develops it could be split off as a separate subject.
Hi,
Yet another subject I can totally relate to.
I know you guys really don't know me yet, but basically, after many years of strong belief and a solid relationship with God, I did an about-face and became an athiest for several years.
I am now coming out of that place.....
There are a lot of common misconceptions about athiests and I am not here to stand up for them, merely just to say what I feel about it from what my experience was personally.
Basically, the Hell idea never sat well with me the whole time I had a relationship with God. Also the vengeful, wrathful God of the OT never made sense to me.
After much research, I came to a place where I no longer believed there was a hell and that it was all man-made politics that started years ago so that more people would be drawn to the church and give money.
However, I researched further and took it a step further. I began to question the existence of God...even though I FELT the relationship there my whole life, logically, there were many reasons that I came to believe there was no way for us to know FOR SURE whether He existed or not.
I had come to a decision that IF He did exist, I wasn't going to believe any longer in the vengeful, wrathful typical christian version of God anymore. It just didn't feel right to me, never did.
I came to an "athiest" position simply because I no longer knew for sure if He existed or not. I participated on some very strong athiest boards and am very farmiliar with their beliefs. They simply dont believe anyone can know for sure....and until there is proof, they just chose to believe He does not exist.
But I guarantee you.....out of most that I talked with....the majority of them said they WOULD believe in a heartbeat if they had SOME kind of proof. Since faith is a belief in things unseen, it is sorta impossible in many ways to have a solid proof.
Many of them, including myself, went through a intense grieving period when they stopped believing. It was a very hard road to go down and a lot of them just had a belly full of bad feelings over christians because of the hell doctrine and how could a loving God send someone to Hell??
MOST of them WERE believers at one point or another and simply could not reconcile things....the mean God and the loving God....so they just came to a point of walking away.
They are not bad people, however in any shape or form. I met MANY wonderful folks that were smart, articulate and actually knew the bible better than some practicing christians I had known.
Sorrry for the lengthy post, but I wanted to clarify where I am today....
I am happy to say that after many years of believing, then becoming an athiest, I am back on the road to seeking God again.
There are so many areas I need help with....
The reason I feel so drawn to this board is that I am overjoyed to begin to discover that you can BE a christian WITHOUT believing in Hell.
Do you know how refreshing that is?
I am excited to find out more about UR. I think it's what I have been searching for this whole time.
Thanks for listening.
Freebird thank you so much for sharing that! I am really blessed that you didnt get so locked in to athiesm that you could not still search and seek
I am falling in love with many folks on a ex-christian forum. I am being challanged and blessed.
I welcome you with all my heart to Tentmaker and am so glad you are here, you could really help me to understand better those Im developing a relationship with at this time.
You too Transponder :happygrin:
ps if you would like to start a thread about your journeys I am all ears and will particpate
kept
Quote from: Kept on October 31, 2007, 04:12:11 PM
Freebird thank you so much for sharing that! I am really blessed that you didnt get so locked in to athiesm that you could not still search and seek
I am falling in love with many folks on a ex-christian forum. I am being challanged and blessed.
I welcome you with all my heart to Tentmaker and am so glad you are here, you could really help me to understand better those Im developing a relationship with at this time.
You too Transponder :happygrin:
ps if you would like to start a thread about your journeys I am all ears and will particpate
kept
Thank you for such a warm welcome! :girlheart:
I'm happy to see you're in correspondence with some athiests, that's wonderful. Even when I used to be a practicing christian the first time around, I was not a judgemental person in that I believed we should talk with everyone, not just other christians! Now, I had a lot of people disagree with me at that time about that, but basically, that is just who I am.
I feel they are a very misunderstood group of folks. There seems to be a notion that if you don't believe in God, then surely you must have no moral compass, which is simply not true. I believe we all have a sense of right/wrong.
Anyhow, what a journey! And yes, I would love to discuss it with you further. I'm new here and kinda getting my feet wet. Maybe after I get more comfortable, I can start a discussion (or if you want to?).
I am somewhat confused so far on what everyone believes here and I need to do some more reading. So far though, of the threads I have read, I find myself in agreement and a lot of folks here seem very "real" compared to some of the boards I have been on which is wonderful.
That's what I am truly seeking...some honest, open disussion that is real...and some help in coming back from an athiest position and redeveloping my new walk with God.
All I know so far is that the beliefs I had before cannot be this time around.
I really don't agree with "hell" and God sending people there. That sorta counts me out of most denominations. I have issues still with the OT God and the nature of the wrathful, vengeful God.
I am here wondering if possibly this is home for me?
Quote from: FreebirdAll I know so far is that the beliefs I had before cannot be this time around.
I really don't agree with "hell" and God sending people there. That sorta counts me out of most denominations. I have issues still with the OT God and the nature of the wrathful, vengeful God.
I am here wondering if possibly this is home for me?
Aah the OT God, yes we also battle with that side. As for a home, I sure hope so and I am confident you will.
Blessings
willieH: Hi FB... :hithere:
Quote from: Freebird on October 31, 2007, 05:12:39 PM
All I know so far is that the beliefs I had before cannot be this time around.
I really don't agree with "hell" and God sending people there. That sorta counts me out of most denominations. I have issues still with the OT God and the nature of the wrathful, vengeful God.
The passages that seem to note this are misunderstood sister... GOD is never vengeful, He is about RIGHTING what is WRONG... that is not VENGENCE, rather it is CORRECTION... Always remember GOD is LOVE... and LOVE is about the preservation and nurturing of its offspring... You're a Mom of two... and I KNOW that you are about only that which is GOOD for your children, ...and sometimes that must include CORRECTION! :thumbsup:
The appearance of VENGENCE is in the mind of MAN... which percieves GOD and His ways, ...as are his own...
GOD's ways are PERFECT, ours IMPERFECT... so our view of HIS WAYS, views from an IMPERFECT place, which does not have the ability to perceive true PERFECTION...
The mind that looks upon LOVE's movement upon that which is INCORRECT... see's LOVE as the force which CORRECTS! :happygrin: Never one which is VENGENT...
Quote from: FreebirdI am here wondering if possibly this is home for me?
:friendstu: We sure HOPE SO! :bgdance:
Always know that YOU shall be recieved HERE with the open arms of JESUS...
Peace... :HeartThrob:
In
JESUS
...willieH :gamer:
Do you imagine? I was on that Ex-Christian forum, too and I know these folks seek the truth...
That's why I asked about a proper bible verse in another forum. I just want to seek for God... without that Hell fear...
Hey BT,
keep searching cause you will find!
God loves for His big heart to be found
kept
Quote from: willieH on October 31, 2007, 09:08:19 PM
willieH: Hi FB... :hithere:
Quote from: Freebird on October 31, 2007, 05:12:39 PM
All I know so far is that the beliefs I had before cannot be this time around.
I really don't agree with "hell" and God sending people there. That sorta counts me out of most denominations. I have issues still with the OT God and the nature of the wrathful, vengeful God.
The passages that seem to note this are misunderstood sister... GOD is never vengeful, He is about RIGHTING what is WRONG... that is not VENGENCE, rather it is CORRECTION... Always remember GOD is LOVE... and LOVE is about the preservation and nurturing of its offspring... You're a Mom of two... and I KNOW that you are about only that which is GOOD for your children, ...and sometimes that must include CORRECTION! :thumbsup:
The appearance of VENGENCE is in the mind of MAN... which percieves GOD and His ways, ...as are his own...
GOD's ways are PERFECT, ours IMPERFECT... so our view of HIS WAYS, views from an IMPERFECT place, which does not have the ability to perceive true PERFECTION...
The mind that looks upon LOVE's movement upon that which is INCORRECT... see's LOVE as the force which CORRECTS! :happygrin: Never one which is VENGENT...
Quote from: FreebirdI am here wondering if possibly this is home for me?
:friendstu: We sure HOPE SO! :bgdance:
Always know that YOU shall be recieved HERE with the open arms of JESUS...
Peace... :HeartThrob:
In JESUS
...willieH :gamer:
Hey Willie!
Thank you, thank you! :girlheart:
As far as the references that I made to the way most interpret the OT God...is there a current thread or stickey that I can look at that you know of?
My problem with the OT God is I see lots of things that make Him look as if He is wrathful, vengeful, etc.
I DON'T see my God as such...
I DO see my God as all LOVING. And as far as the reference you made to my children, I completely understand and agree with that! Every correction is out of love and love only!
See, I WANT to reconcile God of the OT as such....that's what I desire. However, I need some help in being able to understand WHY the OT god seems so...well, awful in some of the versus.
I want a relationship with God to be where I can think that He ALWAYS loves everyone, no matter where they are at in life. And that along with correction, it is gentle and never wrathful or vengeful.
I believe also that everyone will be saved at some point or another....
I guess my problem has always been that among typical denominations, they WANT you to believe there is a Hell and they are OK with God being vengeful and wrathful at times and seem ok with that. :mshock:
I was never OK with that.
I hope I'm explaining myself correctly here so that you guys can understand me better.
Freebird
This has been a thorn for me too for a long time. Now Ive come to see the terrible ot stories metaphorically or spiritually if you will is the better term, and that 'redeems' them and I can even see that those folks, in any of those stories that are factual events, would be blessed by our seeing spiritual truth in them even if they were on the end of receiving the wrath against them in this realm.
However, that dosent explain the whole thing satisfactorly enough for me and so for years Ive ignored any repulsion at the God of the ot for the barbarism Ive read in it.
What Im coming to see are several things and I will try to put them in words. I am very indebted to my online compadre's for much that is being revealed.
First one thing that is really being magnified to new proportions within me is that God is doing a progressive work in mankind as a whole as well as individually. As a corporate man, mankind has been taken from the very bottom of how far man can go from his God. That being said, Im really seeing that it is quite possible that as one sister has said to me, sacrificing animals was a step up for humans. It is a proven fact that mankind was very involved in human sacrifice over the course of history. It is very possible that animal sacrifice was actually a step in the right direction as to progress in mankind as a corporate man.
Also, I was very fortunate when I first became a christian to be given Malcome Smiths teachings on the blood covenant. No matter how repulsive to me blood shedding and sacrificing is to me, it is the pathway God chose to reveal the Son thru to mankind. A covenant is a very powerful thing and Id suggest Malcomes book or tapes to bring that part to life.
Also it helps to know or at least to me to have the vengeful God that was just out for His pound of flesh out of the picture. I renounce that God!! As AJ said, I fire Him. He did a really lousy job of revealing the real Gods heart to me haha
The sacrifice of Jesus Christ to me is about Jesus taking on all mankind and transforming them from worms to butterflys! Its not about Gods sense of holiness and justice being so offended that He needed to vent on an innocent being His vengence so He is satisfied! God says over and over it is not sacrifice but mercy that matters. The cross was mercy, forgiveness and love.
I still dont grasp the whole ot God vs the nt God thing, but it is getting much clearer as I am challanged on this
God bless
kept
Wow Kept, thanks for responding.
You just don't know how refreshing it is to me....for me to be able to say (on a christian board, no less) that I have a problem with the OT God and not be bashed for it is tremendous.
On top of that, to have someone actually acknowledge and admit that they too, have a problem with some of it is just making me want to jump up and down!!!
This is how is usually went in the past.
(my usual christian board)
me: I have a problem with the OT God.
them: What are you talking about?
me: (getting nervous)...well, you know, the stoning of innocent women and children, etc...
them: well, God is perfect!! He is SUPPOSED to be wrathful and vengeful and we NEED fear him as well as love him!
me: well, yeah, but I have kids of my own and although I want them to love me, I certainly don't want them to fear me for wrathfulness and vengefullness~~ I want them to feel I accept them as they are, no matter what and that they can always come to me.
them: Well, you just don't get it. You're out of the loop then. God is loving, but He is also JUST!! And not only do you not understand Him, you must not get any of it! God has to do what he does, send people to hell, etc. THAT is His job...to PUNISH the unbelievers!!!!!
me: Well, shoot, what about all the countries where people live all their life and never get to even hear or read the gospel? What about them? Is it just "too bad then"? They go to Hell? Doesn't that make you feel bad? Or what about the folks that grew up believing another religion and they think they are right?
them: Well, there is ample opportunity for everyone to hear the gospel in their life, don't care where they live or what they grew up believing and if they chose not to follow God, then they SUFFER!!!! It makes perfect sense to me!!
Me: (exit conversation, bash head.)
You are not alone Freebird! That is just being delivered from fear to me, it binds us, some of us all our lives and the church has for decades been just as bound to it and enforcing it in our lives! The fact that you began to question is God causing you to see thru that fear to His heart and to begin to move out of fear.
I am convinced by getting to know athiests and agnostics that are exchristians that this step of being released from fear is what they have experianced in their lives. They just landed in a different spot than me for a while. At this time they are released from that fear, most of them, now they are waiting on the Loving God to be revealed to them for what He is. Do you know that many of them already are seeing Him all the time and calling Him by other names such as consciencness, some power or force of life or the mind and such, but in reality the same God that released them from their bondage to fear by causing them to begin to question the vengeful God they were taught to believe in is the same God that is still causing them to experiance His greatness even when they are walking in athiesm. I am amazed at Gods love. It is important for you to know you have not offended God by your walking thru unbelief. You were walking thru a path of getting free. You are right where you are supposed to be, right on time and right in the hands of the same God you always have been!
Isnt that wonderful? :girlheart:
kept
Quote from: Kept on November 01, 2007, 07:04:00 PM
You are not alone Freebird! That is just being delivered from fear to me, it binds us, some of us all our lives and the church has for decades been just as bound to it and enforcing it in our lives! The fact that you began to question is God causing you to see thru that fear to His heart and to begin to move out of fear.
I am convinced by getting to know athiests and agnostics that are exchristians that this step of being released from fear is what they have experianced in their lives. They just landed in a different spot than me for a while. At this time they are released from that fear, most of them, now they are waiting on the Loving God to be revealed to them for what He is. Do you know that many of them already are seeing Him all the time and calling Him by other names such as consciencness, some power or force of life or the mind and such, but in reality the same God that released them from their bondage to fear by causing them to begin to question the vengeful God they were taught to believe in is the same God that is still causing them to experiance His greatness even when they are walking in athiesm. I am amazed at Gods love. It is important for you to know you have not offended God by your walking thru unbelief. You were walking thru a path of getting free. You are right where you are supposed to be, right on time and right in the hands of the same God you always have been!
Isnt that wonderful? :girlheart:
kept
Thank you for such an uplifting post!
Kept, I know you talk with athiests and such.
You are exactly right....when I turned into an athiest for a while there...it was the first time in my life that I EVER experienced freedom!!
Oh, I can't describe how wonderful I felt to LET GO and STOMP on the old Hell belief that I had my whole life!! Now, this didn't happen overnight. It took a process of a couple years to let go of the hell belief and then I went on to experience athiesm for a few years after that.
With the journey I have been on, I DON'T understand how it is that I made an abrubt about-face all of a sudden from that!
I mean, I was SURE god didn't exist at all!! At least I had decided, if there was a god, it was not the OT god or I wouldn't worship such a being!
I was dead set in that my family is very shocked right now.
My mother cried when she heard me say I was actually reaching out to God again. She had been praying and praying....
When I did belong to an athiest board, sometimes there were nice christians there that I talked with that didn't judge me for where I was and I felt really listened to. Very refreshing.
Even though I had turned athiest, I NEVER stopped corresponding with some of the folks on my original christian messageboard that I had been on and am still on today for over seven years. There were a few there that I really felt showed me the example of a true christian, at least what I thought it should be if I was to be one myself.....the traits were the fruit that they bear....nonjudgement of me and made me feel welcome to come back anytime. They still prayed for me, but didn't pushed me, just quiety waited in the background and let me know they were praying for me. At that time, the praying for me didn't mean much to me since I didn't believe in God anymore, but to me it was a jesture put forth of love. I saw it for at least that.
Now for the first time in many years, I am actually being able to glimpse or be on the threshold of discovering God of my own understanding...and I honestly feel the only way I can do so is if I stay around the UR folks. I believe this may be the key in which I am able to make it this time with God's help.
Honestly, if I hadn't discovered you guys (a member here invited me from my board) I don't know what would have happened. The above post in which I describe my normal conversation would probably have reared it's ugly head again at some point and I would have been at a loss.
It is also because of a few members HERE that post THERE (on my other christian board) that I began to see the light again. They come and fight against the Hell belief and I really felt SO drawn to what they were saying and it was at that point after reading about the beautiful way in which they see God that I felt like this could work!!
So, even though I will remain faithful to my other christian board as I have through thick and thin, belief and unbelief, I really feel in my heart that this is to become home for me as well.
I'm hoping so badly....
Thank you for your conversations with me.
I really feel understood when we talk and you have really been helping me.
Yes, Freedom... Freedom! That's what I felt too when I abandoned the hell thing.
Freebird your heart will expand over and over as you look into this new vision of God being revealed to you!
When ur really burst within my being it was the first time in my life that I felt real deep love! I walked around for a few months crying for joy over the simplist things, creation, leaves falling, haha stars at night and everywhere I went I wanted to grab everyone I saw and hug them and tell them, God loves you actually meaning it!
I believe Gods heart is so big that right now even those that cannot see Him at all are right there safely kept in His big heart till the time for the revealing.
God is so good, there just isnt a word for how good He is
glad you are here
kept
"When ur really burst within my being it was the first time in my life that I felt real deep love! I walked around for a few months crying for joy over the simplist things, creation, leaves falling, haha stars at night and everywhere I went I wanted to grab everyone I saw and hug them and tell them, God loves you actually meaning it!"
That was how I felt when I first got saved...could'nt put the bible down, life was full and real and I had such a deep experience of His love and that for others!
You know what Stardust your so right on! I recall that same thing when I first was born again too. It didnt resurface till ur burst within though. For years it got hidden under a mess of worldly experiances, then mens doctrines, but just like Jesus you cant keep that Spirit buried forever. He must rise and rise He will!
I recall and this is so revealing to me now but at the time i didnt get it. The very first church I started attending at 25 years old was a southern baptist church. Id been there a few months when one day I was sitting in a service next to my mother and suddenly I looked up at all the people on the platform, the choir , pastors and such and they were all statues! They couldnt move, blink, nothing, they were made of stone! And I heard a voice very emphatically say 'Get Out!' I shook. It threw me, this was the first time I had such an experiance as this in a church. Now I didnt say anything, I was sort of in some kind of shock when my mother grabbed my hand and pulled me outside in the parking lot and said, what happened in there? I told her and we got in our car and left.
Now if I had really grasped the importance of those words I could have saved years of grief, but we summed up those words as being to leave THAT church haha and went and found another one............live and learn.
When my husband now Im jumping to my 36th year of life, newely married to an aog minister of music, when he was fired from that church again, God surfaced and pulled me into more of a one on one and began revealing Himself to me but once again we chose to move into another direction.......I look back and see where God worked with me over and over till one day .........the earthquake that rocked all my beliefs......then there just was no turning back.
If I had instead heeded and learned to follow the spirit instead of men no telling how much sooner I might have come to know the things I know now. Unlike some I dont see that its all written in stone.
anyhoo, Im rambling, but in all of it God is good and here I am actually knowing that finally!
kept