Lowered?

[jabcat]

Good post, sheila.

Hi micah.  In my post, I'm noting two different things.  1)  Indications for pre-existence (there are several scrips noted, mostly in the Eby clips which he then expounds upon);  and 2) clear scriptures for having a body.  The main clear one as I see it, is the 1 Corinthians 15:44 one, which you quoted.  Now, how it's interpreted (or better, what it really means) I guess could be open for examination.  You've stated a different point of view on it, and I'm not saying you're wrong.  I'd have to look at it in a larger context of the scriptures before it, to know if it's truly about one corporate body rather than each person having a spiritual body.  It's an interesting thing you've suggested, and I'll look at it further.  James.

[micah7:9]

Curious, "I believe there are at least scriptural indications that we pre-existed (in a spirit form, not as "man") and that it is pretty clearly scriptural that upon resurrection, we will have a body.

Where might these scriptural indications clearly stated?

[Molly]

Where might these scriptural indications clearly stated?

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

--Eph 1

[sheila]

 Secrets of Enoch 30;12

     I conceived a cunning saying to say, I CREATED MAN FROM VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE NATURE

     

    of BOTH are his death and life and image..... small in his greatness and great in his smallness



...and I placed him on earth

[jabcat]

I'll go back and pull some excerpts with scrips from my earlier posts.    :bigGrin:


Also, I've looked at the context of the scripture of I Cor. 15, and I personally see individual bodies being discussed, not one corporate body.  It appears to me that it's talking about the resurrection of the dead, not an allegory or symbolism of the "church" or mankind as a whole.   :dontknow:


A Glorious Body
   
35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?" 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.


Interesting commentary;

Our Final Victory

In 1 Corinthians 15, the "Resurrection Chapter", Paul begins talking about the Gospel being death, burial and resurrection for more reasons than that simply because it happened! It is the basis for our understanding of our own resurrection! Paul did not talk about the death, burial, resurrection and another step about changing in clouds, as I knew one man to propose, as the origin where Jesus really got His spiritual body. There is nothing in the Bible that says His body changed in the clouds. The body we will receive is similar to the body Jesus had in his resurrection from the grave. So the Gospel issue is mentioned to introduce the point of our resurrections.

Paul is showing a pattern in Christ that we will experience in our resurrection. He does not mention the names of people who witnessed the resurrection just to show that Jesus arose. That is also part of the introduction to the point of the pattern of our resurrection. The Body Jesus had when he was seen by so many, is the body we will have when we are resurrected. Seeing no relevance of these first two points with the rest of the chapter's context concerning our resurrection, causes us to be offkey in our thoughts about what body we will have. We do not thereby see the contextual flow and pattern of thought in Paul's foundational notes of Christ's resurrection and his new body compared to our resurrections into which our bodies will be changed. Paul spoke so much about Jesus' "resurrected-from-the-grave" body, because that is the body we will have in the resurrection.

We must not leave all these former points in the early part of this chapter as disjointed from the entire context.  Let us recognize and see the contextual flow and link of these first thoughts with the overall issue of our resurrection bodies. Paul spoke about more than the fact that Jesus is the resurrection. He said that the kind of body Jesus was raised with in resurrection is the same kind of body we shall have in our resurrection. To claim our resurrection bodies are "spiritual" in the sense of being unseen and non-physical, more like non-bodies than bodies, is error. However, they are termed "spiritual" bodies.  But some make the mistake of thinking a spiritual body is not physical.  Our resurrection is going to involve physical bodies as Jesus had when He was resurrected from the grave, not a so-called body he got only after going into the clouds. We shall follow Him in resurrection by getting a body like Jesus had in resurrection from the grave.  Paul would not be talking about the body Jesus obtained when He came from the grave if we are not going to see our present physical bodies changed into those similar to such. We would not be reading these references in the first part of the chapter if our new bodies are not going to be like the one with which He arose from the grave. Paul would not relate our bodily resurrection to Jesus Christ's bodily resurrection in the manner in which he did if our bodies will not be like the body with whcih Jesus Christ resurrected.  http://mikeblume.com/1cor15res.htm

[sheila]

 you would have had to live before to be resurrected from the dead.....

     for the creature was subjected to vanity,not of it's own will,but by the will of Him who subjected it..in order to set it free

     into the glorious freedom of the sons of God......

         the creature already was..before it was subjected to vanity....vanity is emptiness[you have no life in yourself...you can do nothing unless you remain

        in me]

     Paul said, Once I was alive,apart from law, but then the commandment came....."

[jabcat]

Well, let me say - I'm pretty sure I'm missing some things, and I may be wrong about pre-existence.  So I say I "tend to think" and that there are "scriptural indications" - not that I'm dogmatically insisting it's 100% the way it is.  With that being said, I do think it's something intrigueing to consider.  Here are some scrips that may indicate, along with just a little interpretation from the previous Eby quotes.


In Gen. 1:26 we see the wonderful advent of man created "in the image and likeness of God," a SPIRITUAL MAN brought forth out of the very SPIRIT-SUBSTANCE of God Almighty and bearing His own divine nature, character and attributes.

"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth...when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job 38:7). Job was speechless, for he had no idea where he was in that time of long ago, but the truth, it seems to me, was that Job was there among the company of the sons of God, beholding with wonder the plan of God on earth with its sufferings and testiness and the glory that should follow.


In the ninetieth Psalm referred to above the prophet David assures us with great plainness of speech that the Lord has been our dwelling place in all generations. Even before the mountains were brought forth or God had formed the earth, from everlasting to everlasting He is God and in Him we dwelt and from Him we came. Our spirits were with Him before the creation of the earth, for the Father was then our dwelling place.

The Psalmist said, "Thou turnest man to destruction (this realm of sin and death, of flesh and blood); and sayest, Return, ye children of men" (Ps. 90:3). The Lord turned man to destruction, which is to say, He sent us down to this earth realm of dust, sin and death, and then said to us, "Return! ye children of men." What a revelation that is!

In Gen. 1:26 we see the wonderful advent of man created "in the image and likeness of God," a SPIRITUAL MAN brought forth out of the very SPIRIT-SUBSTANCE of God Almighty and bearing His own divine nature, character and attributes. God first called man ADAM -- meaning RED, or SHOWING BLOOD IN THE FACE--when He created him a SPIRITUAL MAN. In Gen. 2:7 we find that in God's inscrutable wisdom the dark hour came when the creature was MADE SUBJECT TO VANITY (Rom. 8:20). Of this man who had been created as pure spirit in the image of God, it is now stated, "And the Lord God FORMED MAN OF THE DUST OF THE GROUND, and breathed into his nostrils the breath (spirit, the spiritual man) of life; and man (then) BECAME a LIVING SOUL." The man who had been spirit now "became" a LIVING SOUL--manifest in the earth realm. Adam--red, showing blood in the face--BECAME a living soul, revealing that there was a PROCESS of descending from pure spirit existence, into a lesser realm.

Man was lowered from the realm of spirit, into the realm of the soul; then in disobedience, drawn away of his own lust and enticed down into the flesh, so that at last God said of man, "He is BECOME FLESH" (Gen. 6:3)He was lowered from spirit to soul, and fell from soul to "flesh."

Ps. 8:4-5 wherein we read, "What is man, that Thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that Thou visitest him? For thou hast MADE HIM a little LOWER than the angels..." The word "angels" in this passage is from the Hebrew ELOHIM and is always the Old Testament word for GOD. "In the beginning GOD (Elohim) created..." (Gen. 1:1). The phrase "made a little lower than the angels" would more literally be translated from the Hebrew text, "Thou hast caused him (man) to LACK FROM ELOHIM."

"For whom He did FOREKNOW, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Rom. 8:29). Yes--the Father in heaven FOREKNEW YOU, my beloved brother, my precious sister in Christ. And that can mean nothing else but that He KNEW YOU BEFORE and at that time when He KNEW YOU BEFORE He predestinated you to enter this earth-experience and thereby be conformed to the image of first, unique, and preeminent Son, Jesus Christ.

Blessings, James.

[Molly]

"For whom He did FOREKNOW, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Rom. 8:29). Yes--the Father in heaven FOREKNEW YOU, my beloved brother, my precious sister in Christ. And that can mean nothing else but that He KNEW YOU BEFORE and at that time when He KNEW YOU BEFORE He predestinated you to enter this earth-experience and thereby be conformed to the image of first, unique, and preeminent Son, Jesus Christ.

THIS is just beautiful.

[sheila]

 thanks Jabcat.......... :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

"For whom He did FOREKNOW, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Rom. 8:29). Yes--the Father in heaven FOREKNEW YOU, my beloved brother, my precious sister in Christ. And that can mean nothing else but that He KNEW YOU BEFORE and at that time when He KNEW YOU BEFORE He predestinated you to enter this earth-experience and thereby be conformed to the image of first, unique, and preeminent Son, Jesus Christ.

THIS is just beautiful.

It is.

thanks Jabcat.......... :HeartThrob:

You're welcome, thank you.  It's something I do believe, but as I said earlier in the thread, I've been surprised before.   :coffee:

[Pierac]

John 12:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.

I see the need to post no more... we must die!

Paul

[Beloved Servant]

First and second Adam,

are the two men in the bed!

I die daily, for it is not I that live but Christ.

At the third feast, Tabernacles, we shall not come empty-handed!

[WhiteWings]

How much can status lowered until it become an insult to the original.

Let's assume God has an an IQ of 1000. Would it be fair to compare with an IQ of 999? 800? 100? 50?
Can a sinless God be compared with someone that sinned once in a life time? 100x? 1000x Several times daily?
If there is an exact image of God and all kind of negative human qualities are added it no longer is an image.
Once again there is no agreement on the translation of image.
Shadow or outline are consired better translations.

The Man is an image of God.

Man is the shaow of God.

Adam is also called the image of the one to come,

Adam is the shadow of things to come.

meaning Jesus.

Who proves anybody before Him were a very sad excuse of an image.

I'm not sure what your point is.  Is it your intent to say that man is nothing  at all like elohiym?

Almost nothing.

Or is a poor resemblance?

Nearly the opposite.

Or God didn't mean what he  said in Gen 1:26 or what?

I'm sure He did mean what He said. I'm just not sure He said: "like Me"

Remember how Jesus loved his disciples, even though they kept misunderstanding, and getting things wrong, and doing the wrong thing?  Do you think their 'IQ' mattered to him?

That's not my point. It was just an example to show that mankind is nothing like God at all. It's like saying man is teh image of a whakle because they both can swim.

He loves us because of who we are, not because of what we are, just like we love our own children--unconditionally.

Many people love their dog. That doesn't make their dog human.

And, how could you possibly know what we will be when we receive our inheritance?

Say you are totally broke for 70 years of your life. Then you win 40 million in a lottery. Were you a millionaire whole your life?

[WhiteWings]

I think what wings is saying is that if man was created in Gods image then, he should be perfect and therefore not fail the test of the tree, or to not have high and lofty thoughts of becoming like God.

That's niot what I intended to say. But it's a very good example.
God can not sin. But His image can't stop sinning.... :dontknow:

[Beloved Servant]

Were you a millionaire whole your life?

Potentially, you just didn't know it, yet!
Awake, Oh sleeper! Be risen from the dead. Christ's light shines upon thee.

[Beloved Servant]

But His image can't stop sinning.... :dontknow:

Repent! Turn your eyes back (see His image).
As Peter and Jesus on the troubled waters.
The moment He took His eyes from Jesus — He sank.


Peter beheld Jesus on the water.
Beautiful.

[sheila]

WW

   WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE CORRUPTIBLE OUTER IMAGE..YOU SEE SIN....THERE IS AN INNER MAN BEING RENEWED DAY BY DAY

   THE OUTER MAN WILL PERISH[BODY OF DEATH]  THE INNER MAN WILL BE DELIVERED FROM HIS BODY OF DEATH

   AND SET FREE INTO THE GLORIOUS LIBERTY OF THE SONS OF GOD

   WE ARE NOT TO JUDGE BY APPEARANCE OF THE EYES

   iSAAIH 28;21 tHE lORD WILL RISE UP AS HE DID AT MOUNT PERAZIM

   HE WILL ROUSE HIMSELF AS HE DID AT THE VALLEY OF GIBEON-

  TO DO HIS WORK,HIS STRANGE WORK

  AND PERFORM HIS TASK,HIS ALIEN TASK

[Molly]

Almost nothing.

I think that's a bit harsh lol.  Don't you see people as more generally a mix of good and evil?  They can be incredibly heroic  and good and selfless, as well as the opposite.  That is the human condition in our fallen state--made subject to vanity,--mataiotēs
-- transientness, moral depravity--that we should learn to overcome this instead of submitting to it.

But, you have to be motivated, and consider it a worthwhile thing to do.  A love of Christ motivates and changes people.

Don't forget, elohiym know good and evil, and are not above doing evil, which is why YHWH is dressing them down in Psa 82.

1God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

2How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

[Beloved Servant]

All the foundations of the earth are out of course.
Fragmented!

[Molly]

Fragmented!

What do you mean?

We know the tree of life in the garden represents Christ and his righteousness.

But, I was actually wondering from something Sheila said earlier, if the tree of the knowledge of good and evil might represent [fallen] Man.

[sheila]

Romans 9;22

     What if.........God..choosing to show His wrath and make His power known..........

       BORE WITH GREAT PATEINCE THE OBJECTS OF HIS WRATH[SIN IN FLESH OF HIS IMAGE]- PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTION

   WHAT IF HE DID THIS TO MAKE THE RICHES OF HIS GLORY KNOWN..TO THE OBJECTS OF HIS MERCY[CREATURE SUBJECTED TO VANITY]

   WHOM HE PREPARED IN ADVANCE FOR GLORY  EVEN US

    WW YOU ARE OF THE TRIBE OF THOMAS.....HE THAT MUST TOUCH AND SEE WITH HIS OWN EYES.....you twin!!

    jOHN 11;16   'LET US ALSO GO,THAT WE MAY DIE WITH HIM'

   

[sheila]

 
  LOOK! THOMAS!   IT IS THE SPITTING IMAGE OF GOD!

        MARK 8;23   HE TOOK THE BLIND MAN BY THE HAND AND LED HIM OUTSIDE THE VILLAGE

       WHEN HE HAD SPIT ON THE MAN'S EYES AND PUT HIS HANDS ON HIM,'JESUS SAID' DO YOU SEE ANYTHING?"

       HE LOOKED UP AND SAID,'I SEE PEOPLE THEY LOOK LIKE TREES WALKING AROUND' ONCE MORE,JESUS PUT HIS

      HANDS ON THE MAN'S EYES. THEN HIS EYES WERE OPENED,HIS SIGHT WAS RESTORED,AND HE SAW EVERYTHING CLEARLY.

   JESUS SENT HIM HOME SAYING,DON'T GO INTO THE VILLAGE   

[thinktank]

Fragmented!

What do you mean?

We know the tree of life in the garden represents Christ and his righteousness.

But, I was actually wondering from something Sheila said earlier, if the tree of the knowledge of good and evil might represent [fallen] Man.

A common misconception among christians.

Christ is life, there is no death in Him .Therefore it is impossible to eat the tree of life and yet remain in death. God says in Genesis to guard the tree of life lest they live forever.

Abraham and the prophets met God face to face and yet they died. If Christ was the tree of life then Abraham would simply take and eat of it and live forever.

However Christ is the root of the tree of life, His power giving birth to this amazing tree.
:2c:

[sheila]

YES, THE TOKOGAE DOES REPRESENT THE CORRUPT IMAGE......AND THAT WHICH IS GOOD AND EVIL IS DONE AWAY WITH WHEN WHAT

  IS PERFECT COMES[TOL]  AND KNOW THAT THERE IS NO DEATH IN THE TOL...BUT HE LAYS IT DOWN WILLINGLY..IN ORDER TO TAKE

  IT BACK UP AGAIN[NO MAN[OF SIN] TAKES IT FROM HIM][FATHER DID THIS,TOO]

    PERFECTION COMES THROUGH OBEDIANCE THROUGH SUFFERING

     HEBREWS 5;9 ALTHOUGH HE WAS A SON,HE LEARNED OBEDIANCE FROM WHAT HE SUFFERED

   AND ONCE HE WAS MADE PERFECT HE BECAME THE SOURCE FOR ETERNAL SALVATION FOR ALL WHO OBEY HIM

  AND WAS DESIGNATED BY GOD TO BE HIGH PREIST IN THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK

[sheila]

and man's physical body is a vessel of wrath in this way only....that it is an abomination to God that sin/evil should dwell in His HOLY TEMPLE...

   the fruit of evil from the tree brings corruption. But He has said,no man ever hated His own flesh..but feeds aND CLOTHES IT...

      jESUS SAID,DESTROY THIS TEMPLE AND i WILL RAISE IT ON THE THIRD DAY.....

     .....AND THOSE WHO DESTROY THE TEMPLE OF GOD..GOD HIMSELF WILL DESTROY

    THE MAN OF SIN IS AS GOOD AS A DEAD MAN.....BECAUSE HE TOUCHED US


     wISDOM..THE CAPABLE WIFE   hAS NO FEAR FOR THE MEMBERS OF HER HOUSEHOLD pR 31;18   FOR THEY ARE ALL DOUBLE GARMENTED

   SCARLET WOOL AND CLEAN WHITE LINEN....WHEN IT SNOWS[COLD/DEATH] MAN AS SHEEP/SLAUGHTERED SKINNED AND THROWN ABOUT


   fOR FATHER LOVES THE GATES OF ZION[SPIRIT] MORE THAN ALL THE TENTS OF JACOB[FLESHLY DWELLINGS]

  WHITE LINEN...RIGHTEOUSNESS  AND GRACE/SPOTLESS/SPIRIT TO SHINE IN THE KINGDOM OF HIS LOVE