Lowered?

[WhiteWings]

It is true, however, as Oehler points out that the source of the nepesh of animals is the ground, whereas the source of the nepesh of Adam is God.

For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption.
--Acts 2:27

So?

7The angel of the LORD encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.

8 O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.



Fear Jehovah, ye His holy ones, For there is no lack to those fearing Him.



22The LORD redeemeth the soul of his servants: and none of them that trust in him shall be desolate.

--Psa 39

Why a totally off-topic post?

[sheila]

HI ww

   I will let Molly speak for herself....

    but I do not see her post as off topic due to topic of 'lowered"  That which is born of spirit is spirit..and though spirit was lowered into death realm/dust

    He will not leave it there,for it shall return from whence it came

[sheila]

' I am returning to My father and your Father....and you know the way....

    see...He did not leave our soul in hell....He sent His Son....I am the resurrection

    Father,into your hands I deliver my spirit    when he had said that....he breathed his last

[Molly]

HI ww

   I will let Molly speak for herself....

    but I do not see her post as off topic due to topic of 'lowered"  That which is born of spirit is spirit..and though spirit was lowered into death realm/dust

    He will not leave it there,for it shall return from whence it came

:HeartThrob:

[micah7:9]

HI ww

   I will let Molly speak for herself....

    but I do not see her post as off topic due to topic of 'lowered"  That which is born of spirit is spirit..and though spirit was lowered into death realm/dust

    He will not leave it there,for it shall return from whence it came

Well by golly you got us back on the topic. When did this "lowering of spirit" take place?  please scripture and verse. Ill refer back to 1Co 15:45  So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Co 15:46  Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.
Thank you again. :grin:

[Beloved Servant]

Hadn't Adam already "fallen" before he partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

And it was because he had already been lowered from a higher realm that he did partake of this tree.

Ps. 8:4-5;  "What is man, that You are mindful of him? and the son of man, that You visit him? For You have made him a little lower than the angels..."

The word "angels" in this passage is from the Hebrew ELOHIM and is the Old Testament word for GOD.

The phrase "made a little lower that the angels" could be translated from the Hebrew text, "You have caused him (man) to LACK FROM ELOHIM."

[Molly]

HI ww

   I will let Molly speak for herself....

    but I do not see her post as off topic due to topic of 'lowered"  That which is born of spirit is spirit..and though spirit was lowered into death realm/dust

    He will not leave it there,for it shall return from whence it came

Well by golly you got us back on the topic. When did this "lowering of spirit" take place?  please scripture and verse. Ill refer back to 1Co 15:45  So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Co 15:46  Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.
Thank you again. :grin:

20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

--Rom 8

[micah7:9]

Hadn't Adam already "fallen" before he partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

And it was because he had already been lowered from a higher realm that he did partake of this tree.

Ps. 8:4-5;  "What is man, that You are mindful of him? and the son of man, that You visit him? For You have made him a little lower than the angels..."

The word "angels" in this passage is from the Hebrew ELOHIM and is the Old Testament word for GOD.

The phrase "made a little lower that the angels" could be translated from the Hebrew text, "You have caused him (man) to LACK FROM ELOHIM."

Heb 2:5  For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
Heb 2:6  But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Heb 2:7  Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Heb 2:8  Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
In the margin of my Bible it has, Psalm 8:4-5

Thank you friend for pointing that out :bigGrin:

[Beloved Servant]

There are only nine verses to it.

[micah7:9]

(CLV) for the soul of the flesh, it is in the blood, and I Myself have assigned it to you to make a propitiatory shelter over your souls on the altar; for the blood, in the soul it makes a propitiatory shelter.
(KJV)  For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
(Amp)Lev 17:11    For the life (the animal soul) is in the blood, and I have given it for you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement, by reason of the life [which it represents].
(Rotherham)Lev 17:11 For, as for the life of the flesh, in the blood, it is, therefore have, I, given it unto you upon the altar, to put a propitiatory–covering over your lives,––for, the blood, it is, which, by virtue of the life, maketh propitiation.
11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for yourselves; for it is the blood that makes atonement because of the life.'(Comp. Jewish Bible 1998)

Life and soul are the same. Until we get to the NT and then soul becomes the self,ego. I prefer sentient over soul, but thats just me.

Can we see here how the word soul and life are played with especially with the KJV. Our life(soul) is the blood; man was a living soul. If he were a "spirit" first, then mans life/soul would not be in the blood.
I love the work of Bro. Eby. I read and learned much from his work for more that 30 years. May I say this with no animosity or discord, The Spirit is revealing many things To Day, while it is called To Day, and certainly the pioneers of the Kingdom message are not without fault. I will stand with Paul, 1Co 15:45  So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
Peace and Love Through Jesus

[micah7:9]

I would like to ask a question.
Why is it, that believing man/adam, was first a spirit and lowered to the flesh, better than believing  man/adam was first a living/breathing creature?
What advantage does that give man?
Why did Paul write ICor.15:45 like he did if there is more to see?
Well I see I have made three questions oops :sigh:

Thank you again :grin:

[Beloved Servant]

Here's a nice excerpt from Bro. Eby's, "THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS."


"And the Lord God FORMED MAN OF THE DUST OF THE GROUND, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Reading this passage we have the definite assurance that, as man has been first created" in the spiritual image of God, a further work is being carried forth and the man is now being "formed" into another expression: "FORMED of the dust of the ground," thus BECOMING a "living soul" - manifest in the earth realm.

The first is the created man, the second the formed man. The first is a spiritual man bearing God's image, the second a physical man. The first bears the image of the heavenly, while the second bears the image of the earthly. The first is known unto God in the Spirit, the second is manifest to the physical world. The first dwells in the ONENESS of God, the second is divided in the realm of the flesh.

The very fact that the scripture states that Adam became a living soul, reveals that there was a process of descending from pure spirit existence, into a lesser realm.

[Beloved Servant]

I'll address question two: "What advantage does that give man? "

God is spirit; if man was initially created flesh he would not be in His image and likeness.

[micah7:9]

I'll address question two: "What advantage does that give man? "

God is spirit; if man was initially created flesh he would not be in His image and likeness.

We...know so much. The image and likeness of of God, just what is that?
"
Reading this passage we have the definite assurance that, as man has been first created" in the spiritual image of God.." Beloved Servant
What definite assurance?
"The very fact that the scripture states that Adam became a living soul, reveals that there was a process of descending from pure spirit existence, into a lesser realm." Beloved Servant
Should that be the "very fact," I ask why is it that you and Bro. Eby see it and Paul was totally unaware of this "Very fact?"

Genesis 1:26 &27 is God speaking what will be, not that it is.
Heb 11:1  And faith is of things hoped for a confidence, of matters not seen a conviction,
Gen 17:4 And speaking with him is the Elohim, saying, "I, behold! My covenant is with you. And you are to become the forefather of a throng of nations.

[Beloved Servant]

John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

[micah7:9]

John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

AMEN! and AMEN! God is spirit!

[WhiteWings]

I'll address question two: "What advantage does that give man? "

God is spirit; if man was initially created flesh he would not be in His image and likeness.

We...know so much. The image and likeness of of God, just what is that?

Is it really the likeness of God? Even image is a disputed translation.

[WhiteWings]

HI ww

   I will let Molly speak for herself....

Gonna be  along wait because she is avoiding what I posted.

   

but I do not see her post as off topic

100% off topic

due to topic of 'lowered"

She turned it into a soul spirit topic. I reply to that. Then I expect a serious answer. Not just a few totally irrelevant verses (without even bothering to explain the connection)

That which is born of spirit is spirit..and though spirit was lowered into death realm/dust

And? I hope you are not just linking verses based on the word spirit...

He will not leave it there,for it shall return from whence it came

It's raining outside. Also a true but irrelvant statement.

[WhiteWings]

I would like to ask a question.
Why is it, that believing man/adam, was first a spirit and lowered to the flesh, better than believing  man/adam was first a living/breathing creature?

I think a better question would be: What is the proof? That's what it's all about. Isn't it?
There are some verses that seem to be about pre-existance.

I think we can conclude with high certainty that man was not the first living/breating creature.
For example in Genesis 1:20 we have birds. Birds breath. Long before man.

What if it's both?
Man was created a "living/breathing creature". But at that point from a Biblical pov that man is still an animal.
The AFTER that a pre-existing spirit from heaven is lowered in that body.
:dontknow:

[Molly]

What if it's both?
Man was created a "living/breathing creature". But at that point from a Biblical pov that man is still an animal.
The AFTER that a pre-existing spirit from heaven is lowered in that body.

No animal was ever created in the image and likeness of God.  That's a fact. 

So to call man an 'animal' is to call God an animal.  I know there are people who worship cows.  I also know there are people who treat other people like cattle.

There is a qualitative difference between man and the animals, for which reason man has dominion over the animals.  For which reason, also, Jesus could say, as he walked the earth in the body of a man, if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.



26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

--Gen 1

[Molly]

Psa 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lowerH2637 H4592 than the angels,H4480 H430 and hast crownedH5849 him with gloryH3519 and honour.H1926


"For thou hast made him a little lower"

H2637
חסר
châsêr
khaw-sare'
A primitive root; to lack; by implication to fail, want, lessen: - be abated, bereave, decrease, (cause to) fail, (have) lack, make lower, want.

H4592
מעט    מעט
me‛aṭ me‛âṭ
meh-at', meh-awt'
From H4591; a little or few (often adverbial or comparative): - almost, (some, very) few (-er, -est), lightly, little (while), (very) small (matter, thing), some, soon, X very.


"than the angels"

H4480
מנּי    מנּי    מן
min  minnı̂y  minnêy
min, min-nee', min-nay'
For H4482; properly a part of; hence (prepositionally), from or out of in many senses: - above, after, among, at, because of, by (reason of), from (among), in, X neither, X nor, (out) of, over, since, X then, through, X whether, with.

H430
אלהים
'ĕlôhı̂ym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.


The way I read this is man is a lowered elohiym, but still crowned with glory and honor by the LORD.

[WhiteWings]

What if it's both?
Man was created a "living/breathing creature". But at that point from a Biblical pov that man is still an animal.
The AFTER that a pre-existing spirit from heaven is lowered in that body.

No animal was ever created in the image and likeness of God.  That's a fact.

Not relevant.

So to call man an 'animal' is to call God an animal.

You don't expect me to fall for that. Are you?  :laughing7:
1] God created an animal and the added something that makes it a man.
2] Image is NOT likeness. It means OPPOSITE.
3] To use your words: Is God a lying, stealing, murdering, raping, stupid, peson that lives about 75 years? Afteral you use that way of comparing with animals.

I know there are people who worship cows.

Not relevant.

/EDIT the whole "lowered thing" is about becoming inferior. Or more precise: Lowered even more because that spirit was never as high as God Himself I assume.

[Molly]

Not relevant

Who are you? The Prosecutor?  Well, I'm the Judge then.  Over ruled!

To use your words: Is God a lying, stealing, murdering, raping, stupid, peson that lives about 75 years? Afteral you use that way of comparing with animals.

Unwillingly made subject to vanity, in hope--Remember?

Image is NOT likeness. It means OPPOSITE.

Opposite?  Where do you get that?

"in his own image"

H6754
צלם
tselem
tseh'-lem
From an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, that is, (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence a representative figure, especially an idol: - image, vain shew.

God created an animal and the added something that makes it a man.

I don't even know what to say about this.  Adds something that makes 'it' a man?

God created all animals and man discretely.  I am not just a monkey with language.

[WhiteWings]

The way I read this is man is a lowered elohiym, but still crowned with glory and honor by the LORD.

So you agree we are not teh image of God.
God is not lowered. He's extremely high. And that part is only about the spirit.
Then we have the body. Demons possed a person. Jesus commanded them into swine. Same demons transfered different bodies.
A body is just a place wher the spirit is 'stored' for a lifetime.
God = Spirit ==> so it's wrong to look at the body/storage/vessel. Only the spirit inside should be compared. And that spirit is lowered. Inferior. Therefore it's by defenition not like God. It's a schadow (=image) of God.

[Molly]

The way I read this is man is a lowered elohiym, but still crowned with glory and honor by the LORD.

So you agree we are not teh image of God.
God is not lowered. He's extremely high. And that part is only about the spirit.
Then we have the body. Demons possed a person. Jesus commanded them into swine. Same demons transfered different bodies.
A body is just a place wher the spirit is 'stored' for a lifetime.
God = Spirit ==> so it's wrong to look at the body/storage/vessel. Only the spirit inside should be compared. And that spirit is lowered. Inferior. Therefore it's by defenition not like God. It's a schadow (=image) of God.

The Man is an image of God.  Adam is also called the image of the one to come, meaning Jesus.

You say, it's lowered so it's not like...

I think of it more as status--if I were a Queen or a chambermaid, I would still be the same person.

Our status is, for the time being, lowered, but it will be restored.  We are to be co-inheritors with Christ, and reign and rule with him.