Lowered?

[micah7:9]

"If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. (This spiritual body is already there before there could even be a soulish body. It takes spirit and body to produce a soul.) "Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, became a living soul; the last Adam a vivifying spirit. But not first the spiritual but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual." 1 Cor.15,45-46. As we have already stated, because a veil has been cast over the face of all men, we are not able to remember or comprehend with our natural mind that we were once spiritual beings. This is one of the many secrets that the Holy Spirit is revealing to us in this hour. Thus we can only go back in memory to when we were two or three years old. We can not even remember that we were once pre-natal. But that does not in any way disqualify the fact that we did exist! The very fact that we are alive in this natural realm proves that we once were in our mother's womb. And now that we have been born of the Spirit, we can know that we came out from God! Isa.25,7-8: Romans 11, 36.  (dora_van_assen_exact_immage)

Paul is very clear and quite specific in 1Cor.15:45-46 that " The first man, Adam, became a living soul" and that the last Adam a vivifing spirit. FIRST the natural then...
If this doctrine/theory that man was lowered from a spirit to human form to experience sin, why is it not made as clear and plain in the Bible? The verses in Isa. and Romans do not explain the doctrine/theory of being lowered for me. And where do we find "because a veil has been cast over the face of all men," and "We can not even remember that we were once pre-natal."?
I had recieved this teaching many years ago as I read and followed Bro. Eby's work, I believed it without even doubt, it sounded right and I liked it. The only thing wrong is that Paul is quite clear, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul/breathing creature."

Isa 25:7  And swallowed up hath He in this mountain The face of the wrapping that is wrapped over all the peoples, And of the covering that is spread over all the nations.
Isa 25:8  He hath swallowed up death in victory, And wiped hath the Lord Jehovah, The tear from off all faces, And the reproach of His people He turneth aside from off all the earth, For Jehovah hath spoken.
Rom 11:36  because of Him, and through Him, and to Him are the all things; to Him is the glory--to the ages. Amen.

Where can I find verses in the Bible that clearly state man was lowered from a spirit before he became a living soul? thank you

[jabcat]

Don't know if this helps;

isn't there a scripture that says mankind was lowered into this realm to have an experience of evil?  I'm not finding it.  Am I making it up?   :mblush:

Also, Ecclesiastes verse, "spirit returns to God who gave it".  You're a studier of the soul more than I, so not sure where this fits in with the "before or after living soul" piece.

I liked this, but it still may not address the "time frame" regarding the soul;

http://www.kingdavidstable.com/messages/p/preexistence.shtml

[micah7:9]

Don't know if this helps;

isn't there a scripture that says mankind was lowered into this realm to have an experience of evil?  I'm not finding it.  Am I making it up?   :mblush:

Also, Ecclesiastes verse, "spirit returns to God who gave it".  You're a studier of the soul more than I, so not sure where this fits in with the "before or after living soul" piece.

I liked this, but it still may not address the "time frame" regarding the soul;

http://www.kingdavidstable.com/messages/p/preexistence.shtml

I understand Ecc. as the "spirit" is the life or breath(of life) and it does return.  As for lowered that would be Heb.2. Ill check out the site. thanks
                                                                          Pre-existence

"Beloved, it appears that at the dawn of the Creation the Sons of God came out from God Himself as spirit, and then were lowered into the soulish realm of Adam. It also appears that these Sons shall all RETURN to their former Estate, not in the first Adam, but in and through the Last Adam, the Lord Jesus Christ."  It "appears?"

[lomarah]

When they speak of the Sons of God do they mean all of mankind or only those who are sons now? I've often wondered about the whole "those whom God forknew He also predestined"... How did He "preknow" some and not others?  :dontknow:

[Molly]

Where can I find verses in the Bible that clearly state man was lowered from a spirit before he became a living soul? thank you

So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
--1 Cor 15:45

Micah, look how he writes this.  The first man, Adam, became a living soul.

If I become a wife, doesn't that mean I was something else before I became a wife?

"became"  "was made to be" [a living soul]

G1096
γίνομαι
ginomai
ghin'-om-ahee
A prolonged and middle form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen" -erate), that is, (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literally, figuratively, intensively, etc.): - arise be assembled, be (come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, be done, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.

Why doesn't he just say the first man Adam was a living soul?  Or the first man Adam is a living soul?

That's not the word he uses.


Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
--Heb 2:14

[the children] "are partakers" [of flesh and blood]

G2841
κοινωνέω
koinōneō
koy-no-neh'-o
From G2844; to share with others (objectively or subjectively): - communicate, distribute, be partaker.

'koinoneo' is another interesting choice of words.  It is the word used for fellowship.  The children are sharing fellowship in flesh and blood--so he also took part of the same?

It's just interesting the way he puts that.

[micah7:9]

The first mam/adam [formed dust of the ground] BECAME a living soul.

[Molly]

The first mam/adam [formed dust of the ground] BECAME a living soul.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
--Gen 2:7


The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
--Job 33:4


Barnes notes:

"His mental part is from another source. "And breathed into his nostrils the breath of life." The word נשׁמה neshāmâh is invariably applied to God or man, never to any irrational creature. The "breath of life" is special to this passage. It expresses the spiritual and principal element in man, which is not formed, but breathed by the Creator into the physical form of man. This rational part is that in which he bears the image of God, and is suited to be his vicegerent on earth. As the earth was prepared to be the dwelling, so was the body to be the organ of that breath of life which is his essence, himself."


"the breath" [of life]
H5397
נשׁמה
neshâmâh
nesh-aw-maw'
From H5395; a puff, that is, wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect or (concretely) an animal: - blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.

[Beloved Servant]

Where can I find verses in the Bible that clearly state man was lowered from a spirit before he became a living soul? thank you

Is something like this what you're looking for, Micah?

Jeremiah 1:
4 The word of the LORD came to me, saying,
5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart;

[Molly]

13For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

14I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

15My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

17How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

18If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.

--Psa 139 :bgdance: :bgdance:

[Beloved Servant]

Isaiah 49:1 Listen to me, you islands; hear this, you distant nations: Before I was born the LORD called me; from my birth he has made mention of my name.

[Molly]

Where can I find verses in the Bible that clearly state man was lowered from a spirit before he became a living soul? thank you

Is something like this what you're looking for, Micah?

Jeremiah 1:
4 The word of the LORD came to me, saying,
5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart;

your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
--Psa 139:16

[Molly]

Isaiah 49:1 Listen to me, you islands; hear this, you distant nations: Before I was born the LORD called me; from my birth he has made mention of my name.

9 Remember, you molded me like clay.
      So are you going to turn me back into dust?
10 Didn't you pour me out like milk?
      Didn't you form me like cheese?
11 Didn't you put skin and flesh on me?
      Didn't you sew me together with bones and muscles?
12 You gave me life. You were kind to me.
      You took good care of me. You watched over me.
--Job 10

[Beloved Servant]

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (Ephesians 1:3-4, emphasis added)

[Molly]

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (Ephesians 1:3-4, emphasis added)

Ephesians 2:10

For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

[Molly]

 15But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, 16was pleased to reveal his Son in me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood,

--Gal 1

[eaglesway]

A few tidbits

we were created first in Adam, a living soul
we are created second in Jesus Christ- begotten from above/born again- a life giving spirit, in other words- zoe life/aionian zoe

"the spirit returns to God who gave" it may reasonably only refer to the life breath from him that combines with the clay to create a new unique being (be fruitful and multiply) and is no sure proof verse for prexistence IMO

No man may enter the kingdom unless he is born of the water and the spirit- the wind blows where it wills and we hear the sound of it but we don't know from whence it came or wither it goes- SO IT IS WITH EVERYONE WHO IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT

Whatever we are predestined to inherit, many are called but few are chosen, and we must be born of the water and the spirit to be "birthed" into it

If we abide /continue/dwell/tabernacle in Christ, in the I AM, we shall know the truth and the truth shall set us free- walking in the Spirit/walking in the light/tree of life

to him that has more shall be given

If we do not walk in the spirit, if we walk in the pleasures of the flesh and the mind, in knowledge without wisdom, becoming arrogant and satisfied- we dry up and wither as branches and are gathered to be consumed in the fire- second death, set free the hard way ;o)

He that has not- even that he has shall be taken

Today, if you hear His voice harden not your hearts. IMO entering the promised land, partakers of the divine nature, walking in the works prepared from the foundation of the world that we should walk in them- has nothing to do with what we know of origins or speculate concerning our prenatal existence(or not). Personally, I believe I was "formed in my mothers womb", but I am not opposed to the concept of prenatal existence as sentient spirits. However, I am more concerned as to how we become life giving spirits that manifest the kingdom TODAY in the I AM. SO IT IS WITH EVERYONE WHO IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT.

I am not sure I qualify.

[jabcat]

micah, I was just having a discussion on the phone with someone else about this (similar) topic.  So I found something else that's hopefully related.  Not solely scripture, but I believe still good (scriptures included) and hopefully not too off track of what you're looking for.  I thought this is interesting from J. Preston Eby;

In Libra we see two scales, one of the scales is tipped down, the other is up revealing an imbalance, deficiency, lack--showing the failure of man to be weighed properly in the scales of God. Some glad morning, the dawn of which methinks I now behold, when the processing's of God in His firstfruits are complete, our eyes will behold with endless joy the surpassing glory of that celestial realm in which walked Adam, the son of God. Our eyes, long dimmed by the darkness of this carnal realm, have not beheld such glories as were there; our ears have not heard its heavenly song, nor have our wildest imaginations probed the splendors of that realm of life where Adam stood in God's image and likeness having no sin, no sorrow nor crying, no labor nor sweat, no bondage nor limitation, no pain nor death; for even now, in this "in part" realm of the firstfruits of the Spirit, we yet see through a glass darkly.

In Gen. ]:26 we see the wonderful advent of man created "in the image and likeness of God," a SPIRITUAL MAN brought forth out of the very SPIRIT-SUBSTANCE of God Almighty and bearing His own divine nature, character and attributes. God first called man ADAM -- meaning RED, or SHOWING BLOOD IN THE FACE--when He created him a SPIRITUAL MAN. In Gen. 2:7 we find that in God's inscrutable wisdom the dark hour came when the creature was MADE SUBJECT TO VANITY (Rom. 8:20). Of this man who had been created as pure spirit in the image of God, it is now stated, "And the Lord God FORMED MAN OF THE DUST OF THE GROUND, and breathed into his nostrils the breath (spirit, the spiritual man) of life; and man (then) BECAME a LIVING SOUL." The man who had been spirit now "became" a LIVING SOUL--manifest in the earth realm. Adam--red, showing blood in the face--BECAME a living soul, revealing that there was a PROCESS of descending from pure spirit existence, into a lesser realm.

The point of special interest to us here is the fact that God first called man ADAM, or RED--SHOWING BLOOD IN THE FACE--when He created him a SPIRITUAL MAN. Man did not "become" Adam when he was "formed of the dust of the ground"--it was not the earthly man who was first characterized as red, or showing blood in the face--but the heavenly man! And this Adam was not formed of the dust, but was created "in the image and likeness of God." No poet or philosopher or prophet could possibly describe the glory and eminence of THIS MAN! I have long known that the "face" in symbolic terms bespeaks of the outward expression and revelation of the deepest inward parts of man's being--the heart. All that a man thinks and feels and is inwardly is written and expressed outwardly upon the countenance, known and read of all men. Blood bespeaks LIFE. To "show blood in the face" is to show life in the countenance--the OUTWARD REVELATION OF THE INNER CONDITION OF L-I-F-E!

Lowered into the earth realm, becoming a living soul, man sank even lower. The bright and glorious spirit ruled in the man and woman of flesh until that dreadful hour in which they partook of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Then and there their eyes were opened to see their OUTWARD FORMS. The outraying spirit of glory that had reigned within them dimmed beneath the newly discovered consciousness of the OUTER and they knew the shame of their nakedness before the Lord. Truly the "nakedness" consisted in their sense-consciousness of the lack of reality in the realm of the flesh. In this state they knew the grief of sustaining their bodies by sweat and travail. Man was lowered from the realm of spirit, into the realm of the soul; then in disobedience, drawn away of his own lust and enticed down into the flesh, so that at last God said of man, "He is BECOME FLESH" (Gen. 6:3)He was lowered from spirit to soul, and fell from soul to "flesh." The spirit of man is the image of God--GOD consciousness. The soul is the seat of SELF-consciousness, and the body is the seat of SENSE-consciousness. In spirit Adam was God-conscious. In soul man was both God-conscious and Self-conscious. But ruled by his five senses, fulfilling the desires of the flesh, conscious of the outward world about him, seeking his experience, existence and identity in that low realm, he was a FLESHLY MAN. Having made the transition from the celestial to the physical, we died to the spiritual and became alive to the natural, under the throes of the carnal mind, to have "our conversation...in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind...by nature the children of wrath, even as others" (Eph. 2:3).

I would point out, that Adam had already "fallen", as it were, before he partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.. It was BECAUSE he had already been lowered from a higher realm that he DID partake of this tree. One of the outstanding texts which shows this "lowering" of man and his subsequent LACK is Ps. 8:4-5 wherein we read, "What is man, that Thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that Thou visitest him? For thou hast MADE HIM a little LOWER than the angels..." The word "angels" in this passage is from the Hebrew ELOHIM and is always the Old Testament word for GOD. "In the beginning GOD (Elohim) created..." (Gen. 1:1). The phrase "made a little lower than the angels" would more literally be translated from the Hebrew text, "Thou hast caused him (man) to LACK FROM ELOHIM." When God would execute the purpose of the ages He laid hold of His ELOHIM COMPANY and stripped from them some of that glory, that fullness, that oneness and caused them to lack, for He subjected us to the bondage of vanity and corruption, emptiness and nothingness, not willingly on our part, but by reason of HIM who subjected us in hope--hope, in the words of another: "...that out of all its travail and processing's would come forth a company that would redound to His praise, that the inherent glory of our pre-existent state in God, and the acquired glory through the contact with evil, and the overcoming thereof, would combine their effulgence and the latter state would be greater than the former; so that all we once had, plus all that is wrought out through the processing will combine their effulgence, and redemption's glory will shine out to His praise and all the universe shall throb anew with wonder of the power and the inworking grace of God"

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/HD/HD9.htm

[Beloved Servant]

I am not sure I qualify.

Does one say to a butterfly that flies free, you were more attractive as a worm?
Once set free from the law of sin and death, the law of life in Christ Jesus prevails.

[WhiteWings]

Maybe totally off-topic but it is about lowered. Still looking into it. Not much time right now so I'll keep it short.
Did you know ice is in a way steam with a lowered frequency?
There are even ways to pass through solid things using frequency.

[Molly]

The phrase "made a little lower than the angels" would more literally be translated from the Hebrew text, "Thou hast caused him (man) to LACK FROM ELOHIM." When God would execute the purpose of the ages He laid hold of His ELOHIM COMPANY and stripped from them some of that glory, that fullness, that oneness and caused them to lack, for He subjected us to the bondage of vanity and corruption, emptiness and nothingness, not willingly on our part, but by reason of HIM who subjected us in hope--hope, in the words of another: "...that out of all its travail and processing's would come forth a company that would redound to His praise, that the inherent glory of our pre-existent state in God, and the acquired glory through the contact with evil, and the overcoming thereof, would combine their effulgence and the latter state would be greater than the former; so that all we once had, plus all that is wrought out through the processing will combine their effulgence, and redemption's glory will shine out to His praise and all the universe shall throb anew with wonder of the power and the inworking grace of God"

Isaiah 52:10
The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

...and all the ends of the earth shall see Y'shû‛âh  'ĕlôhı̂ym

[Molly]

43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

--Mat 5



46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

--Mat 5



1 Peter 1:16
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

[jabcat]

Isaiah 52:10
The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

...and all the ends of the earth shall see Y'shû‛âh  'ĕlôhı̂ym

:thumbsup:

[Molly]

Psalm 68:19
Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah


...even 'êl  Y'shû‛âh.  Selah

--Psa 68:19

[Molly]

Isaiah 25
1O Lord, thou art my God; I will exalt thee, I will praise thy name; for thou hast done wonderful things; thy counsels of old are faithfulness and truth.

2For thou hast made of a city an heap; of a defenced city a ruin: a palace of strangers to be no city; it shall never be built.

3Therefore shall the strong people glorify thee, the city of the terrible nations shall fear thee.

4For thou hast been a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shadow from the heat, when the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall.

5Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.

6And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

7And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

8He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

9And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in Y'shû‛âh.

[redhotmagma]

For the creation was subjected to futility

subjected  hupotasso 5293
to arrange under, to subordinate
2) to subject, put in subjection
3) to subject one's self, obey
4) to submit to one's control
5) to yield to one's admonition or advice
6) to obey, be subject
++++
A Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a
military fashion under the command of a leader". In non-military use,
it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming
responsibility, and carrying a burden".
from 5259 and 5021; to subordinate; reflexively, to obey:-be under
obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to,
unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto.

Sub means under, so in that way creation was lowered.  Its where we get our prefix hypo.  If you have hypoglycemia it means that your blood sugar goes from a state of "normal" (don't get me started on "normal" in medicine) to a lowered state. 

I know this isn't 1=1, but maybe it helps.  If it makes you feel more confident in my assessment its the very first thing that I thought today when I woke up.   :winkgrin:  My entire nights sleep was devoted to your question Micah. :Sparkletooth: