tHEY KNOW not WHAT THEY DO

[WhiteWings]

I've always seen it to merely be the natural, the carnal, the fleshly part in that Jesus was all God and all man, that it was the man in him that was crying out, just as I see it to be the same carnal part in him that led him into the wilderness.

Hu? HS led Him into the wildernes.
He was was the scape goat and the Hs was the strong/fit man/priest leading Him into the wildernes. It's an exact duplicate of the Leviticus scapegoat sacrife.
Dunno, but I think the 40 days in the wildernes took away the sins of teh world. Not the cross or resurection.

[jabcat]

I've always seen it to merely be the natural, the carnal, the fleshly part in that Jesus was all God and all man, that it was the man in him that was crying out, just as I see it to be the same carnal part in him that led him into the wilderness.

Hu? HS led Him into the wildernes.
He was was the scape goat and the Hs was the strong/fit man/priest leading Him into the wildernes. It's an exact duplicate of the Leviticus scapegoat sacrife.
Dunno, but I think the 40 days in the wildernes took away the sins of teh world. Not the cross or resurection.

I believe you bring up a good point WW, one I'd never really thought about before.  I agree, the 40 days seem very important.  Good point.  It seems to be that's when sins are placed upon "the scapegoat".  However, the rest of it is, the slaying of the Lamb, the shedding of its blood, is the final necessary step to actually take away  the sins of the people.  IMO, that's why Paul preached so much of the cross.  He said he purposed to preach nothing other than Christ and Him crucified.  He also said the cross is foolishness to those that are perishing, but to those being saved it is the power of God.

I believe the power is in the shed blood - the Sacrifice.

[WhiteWings]

Saying only the scapegoar was of importance is like saying the rest of His deeds was  a waste of time. I'm not implying that.
My 'calculations' seem to point to a baptism on the day of Atonement. To my best understanding that's the most holy day for the Jews. Also the only days God forgives the sins (of the nation).
What many won't like about this paralel is that the scapegoat reprents satan. Then of couse Jesus represents satan too....
http://www.cofac.org/atonement.html

Symbolicly Jesus was killed 3 times.
1] He died when John pushed Him under water in His Grave. That goat was killed and the blood put on the altar.
2] He represented the scapegoat that was left to die in the wildernes.
3] Then of course the passover  Lamb.

Leviticus 16 teachers about goat sacrifices.
Jesus was both goats. Jesus presented Himself to (who God considred High Priest) John the Baptist.
Jesus-goat-1 died during baptism in His water grave (Romans 6:4)
---> Jesus died. Jesus was cut of.

^EBRLeviticus 16
21 And Aaron shall lean his two hands, upon the head of the living goat, and confess over him, all the iniquities of the sons of Israel, and all their transgressions, to the extent of all their sins,––and shall put them upon the head of the goat, and then send him away, by the hand of a man appointed towards the desert:

All sins were cast on Jesus-goat-2 and He was led into the wilderness by a fit man called Holy Spirit.

I'm starting to wonder what the use of the Lamb sacrifice (cross was). Afterall the perfect goat has carried away all sins.
Hebrews 9:12-14 says,
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered
in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For
if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the
unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh; 14 How much more shall the
blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot
to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

[WhiteWings]

Deep thought of the day to get a bit of life on thi forum....
Was Jesus alive during His ministry?
He died in that watery grave. He died in the wilderness. He died on the cross. And got resurrected 3 days later.
Could it be that the 3 days in the grave was the 3 years of ministry. The dead He preached to in the grave was mankind that he called the dead burrying the dead.
I'm aware this view is problematic but still...

[sheila]

whew..what a thread


    the sheep know the shepherds voice.....led into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil[tempted like unto us,but without sin/error[I shall put my angels

  in charge of you so you shall not stumble]   can you see the spotless sheep and the goat in the wilderness? both..one other thing to consider...

   there were two goats..and the LORD'S LOT fell on the goat that was burnt on the alter[a sacrifice]  now when a sacrifice ascends up in smoke..it is changed

on the alter into another form..consumed of the fire of God!  differnce between his goat and ours[he had no sin in his flesh and we

do ours[see how sinful man is enticed or drawn out] and note Jesus was not draw out or deceived in wilderness


          another.point/righteousness..those naked and ashamed..are those not clothed in truth[see Adam and Eve in the garden...naked after following a lying spirit of

disobediance or/ and presumptousness] naked but unaware before due to lack of knowledge of truth. The parable of the wedding garment.....truth robe was available

but those who do not know Christ/bridegrrom were thrown out. Now it is not so much that Christ throws them out of  the wedding supper,but more of they can'e abide

  the meal that is served[thou preparest me a table in the presence of mine enemies]because they are misled by Christ's enemies..or are deceived/clothed in error

or still clothed in their own filthy self-righteousness and have not availed themselves of the righteousnees of Christ and followed the Holy spirit to be taught and led

into all the things pertaining unto Christ

[sheila]

 aforetimes in another heaven ..satan dwelled[the accusor and temptor of the brethern]  but He was cast out..God rebuked him through Jesus Christ....read

  the account where one on the left went forth to deceive.[thrown to the earth]


   cursed is anything that hangs on a tree[that is when sin was placed on the goat/on the torture stake...the serpent hanging in the tokogae[he bore our sins]

   no sin in his flesh tempted Him in the wilderness..the enticement was outside His body[ours comes from within,d.t sin in our flesh]

   Jesus entered the city afterward...the true scapegoat never enters the Holy city. At-one-ment[mind]  man and God on the same page/understanding


    He seperates the sheep from the goat in each child   all are taught of God...any correction after death is just this...what they had not seen they will see

   what they had not heard,they will hear...when they rise it is for deliverance from the death realm...and they will be delivered..and treated as the

  prodigal was,irregardless of any elder brother mentality. It is His free gift to give,and who shall stop His hand? Shall you? Try it!!


   Ezekiel 34;10

   this is what the Sovereign Lord says; I MYSELF WILL SEARCH FOR MY SHEEP AND LOOK AFTER THEM. AS A SHEPHERD LOOKS AFTER HIS SCATTERED FLOCK WHEN HE

IS WITH THEM,SO I WILL LOOK AFTER MY SCATTERED SHEEP. I WILL RESCUE THEM FROM ALL THE PLACES THEY WERE SCATTERED ON A DAY OF CLOUDS AND

DARKNESS,I WILL BRING THEM OUT FROM THE NATIONS AND GATHER THEM FROM THE COUNTRIES,AND I WILL BRING THEM INTO THEIR OWN LAND....

   I WILL SEARCH  FOR THE LOST AND BRING BACK THE STRAYS.I WILL BIND UP THE INJURED AND STREGTHEN THE WEAK,.....BUT THE SLEEK AND

  THE STRONG I WILL DESTROY!..........I WILL JUDGE BETWEEN ONE SHEEP AND ANOTHER,AND BETWEEN RAMS AND GOATS....IS IT NOT ENOUGH YOU FEED ON THE

GOOD PASTURE  MUST YOU ALSO TRAMPLE THE REST OF YOUR PASTURE WITH YOUR FEET? IS IT NOT ENOUGH FOR YOU TO DRINK CLEAR WATER

MUST YOU ALSO MUDDY THE REST WITH YOUR FEET?[don't muddy the REST OF GOD]  MUST MY FLOCK FEED ON WHAT YOU HAVE TRAMPLED?


   YOU MY SHEEP,THE SHEEP OF MY PASTURE,ARE PEOPLE,AND I AM YOUR GOD,declares the Sovereign Lord

[thinktank]

If a sheep belongs to God and a goat is a rebellious sheep. I wonder what a Ram represents

[sheila]

  there was a ram in the bush...It was offered up,instead of the son of promise. amazing what you find in I AMBUSH. I have heard that the ram is the Holy spirit

  on the blessing side.....look at this ram.  Daniel 8  vision of a ram and goat........no animal could stand against him,and

none could rescue from his power.he did as he pleased and became great...as I was thinking about this a goat with a prominent horn between

his eyes came from the west,crossing the whole earth without touching the ground.He came toward the two-horned ram.....I saw him

attacking the ram furiously,striking the ram and shattering his two horns.The ram was powerless to stand against him the goat knocked him to the ground and trampled on him[trampling of gentiles],and none could resuce the ram from his power

   [goat] out of one of them came another horn,which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east AND TOWARD THE BEAUTIFUL LAND

  IT GREW UNTIL IT REACHED THE HOST OF HEAVENS and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and TRAMPLED THEM...it set

itself up to be as great as the prince of the host...it took away the daily sacrifice from him,and the place of his sanctuary was brought low....


    Gabriel, tell the man the meaning of the vision......25.....he will cause deceit to prosper and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure he will

  destroy many AND TAKE HIS STAND AGAINST THE PRINCE OF PRINCES.  YET HE WILL BE DESTROYED BUT NOT BY HUMAN HANDS

from his power

[sheila]

 Now, Daniel also prophesied that the saints would be overcome..til the court sit. Do you see where the testimony of the Holy spirit was wrecked...and

  overcome with babylon doctrines and deceit. Note; no animal could stand before the ram...because the Holy spirit kills animals/or carnal understandings

   rise Peter,kill and eat[3 times]. no beast can touch the mountain and live..so the deceit was already entering,as Paul warned..many anti-christs

          that stone not cut out by human hands.[revelation of God/revelation of Christ/revelation of godliness/revelation of ungodliness/ revelation of son of

perdition.revelation of son of man/revelation of sons of God./revelation of man of sin../revelation of the GLORY OF GOD......    .become a mountain of REVELATION

[thinktank]

  there was a ram in the bush...It was offered up,instead of the son of promise. amazing what you find in I AMBUSH. I have heard that the ram is the Holy spirit

  on the blessing side.....look at this ram.  Daniel 8  vision of a ram and goat........no animal could stand against him,and

none could rescue from his power.he did as he pleased and became great...as I was thinking about this a goat with a prominent horn between

his eyes came from the west,crossing the whole earth without touching the ground.He came toward the two-horned ram.....I saw him

attacking the ram furiously,striking the ram and shattering his two horns.The ram was powerless to stand against him the goat knocked him to the ground and trampled on him[trampling of gentiles],and none could resuce the ram from his power

   [goat] out of one of them came another horn,which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east AND TOWARD THE BEAUTIFUL LAND

  IT GREW UNTIL IT REACHED THE HOST OF HEAVENS and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and TRAMPLED THEM...it set

itself up to be as great as the prince of the host...it took away the daily sacrifice from him,and the place of his sanctuary was brought low....


    Gabriel, tell the man the meaning of the vision......25.....he will cause deceit to prosper and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure he will

  destroy many AND TAKE HIS STAND AGAINST THE PRINCE OF PRINCES.  YET HE WILL BE DESTROYED BUT NOT BY HUMAN HANDS

from his power

Not sure what your getting at here. The goat is a symbol of a rebellious wicked person/ a wicked nation or a child of the devil, which in Daniels scripture Goat destroys/tramples the Ram. So the Ram cannot be the holy spirit in this instance. The Ram in Daniel represents a nation that is trampled upon and destroyed by the rebellious goat nation.
The Ram being a male sheep should be in theory a powerful sheep(Leader  :dontknow:). But I was wondering if anyone as any other take on it. But thanks for the suggestion of the Ram being the holy spirit, it might fit in other scriptures ,but not in Daniels book.

[sheila]

 Hi TT

   reconsider.....the kingdom of darkness versus the kingdom of light...two kingdoms two nations............the dragon trampled the saints

   consider all the doctrines in babylon churches....and tell me how the Holy spirit guided the churches into such chaos.

[lomarah]

Hi TT

   reconsider.....the kingdom of darkness versus the kingdom of light...two kingdoms two nations............the dragon trampled the saints

   consider all the doctrines in babylon churches....and tell me how the Holy spirit guided the churches into such chaos.

Wow, that makes a lot of sense! Okay so speaking of Babylon, I had a crazy dream the other night and I was wondering if anyone might know if it has meaning... but I will start a different thread so as not to highjack this one. :D