dO YOU BELEIVE THAT ? yOU SHOULD REALLY,REALLY BELEIVE IT. fOR THE FAITHFUL AND TRUE WITTNESS SPOKE IT
DO DECEIVED PEOPLE KNOW THAT THEIR DECEIVED? NO,THEY DON'T....THEY EVEN THINK THEY ARE DOING GOD A FAVOUR AND DO HIS WILL
can you say...FATHER FORGIVE THEM,THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO?
AH DECEPTION...THE BANE OF ADAM
LETS EXAMINE THAT WILEY DECEPTOR...THAT COVERING CHERUB.......THERE HE IS IN THE GARDEN,CLINGING IN A LIMB OF THE TOKOGAE.....WHAT?
CAN aDAM KNOW GOOD AND EVIL WHEN HE STARTS OUT DECEIVED? FATHER FORGIVE THEM,THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO.
[THERE I SEE HIM SITTING IN THE SEAT OF MOSES[i SEE HE MADE IT ,I WONDERED AFTER MICHAEL SAID,THE LORD REBUKE THEE]
THE LORD DID REBUKE HIM,BUT REBUKE A FOOL AND YOU WILL INCUR INJURY
CAN YOU SAY,FATHER FORGIVEN THEM..THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO?
CALL NO MAN A FOOL, DID YOU EVER WONDER WHY HE SAID THAT?
IT IS BETTER TO HEED A WISE MAN'S REBUKE, THEN TO LISTEN TO THE SONGS OF FOOLS. THE PHARISEES WOULD HAVE BENEFITTED FROM THAT
LITTLE PEARL OD WISDOM
IF YOU FOOL SOMEONE YOU DECEIVE THEM
WHO IS THIS PROFESSIONAL COURT JESTER WHO DECEIVES
HE SAID CALL NO MAN A FOOL...JUST AS HE SAID,FROM NOW ON CALL NO MAN ON EARTH YOUR FATHER.
FATHER FORGIVE THEM,THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO
p.s.
can you releif along with me..that finally He sent down Jesus Christ...someone who KNEW WHAT HE WAS DOING!!!
Amen Sheila! Your posts bless me greatly. :cloud9:
That's a great question to pose to our ET friends. Where are those that crucified Jesus? Are they in heaven? Or are they in hell? If they say they're in hell, then they'd have to admit Jesus' prayer went unanswered. If they went to heaven, then they'd have to deny the eternal damnation of hell. "They" themselves never repented, another point to think about. Jesus forgave them without them asking him to. They didn't even have a repentant heart. Then never "confessed" that Jesus was Lord, nor did they confess that they themselves were sinners (reference to another recent thread about confessing your sins). So . . . were they forgiven or not?
This verse was placed on my heart this week. Have you ever known you were being led to a verse, knew it contained a significant truth, yet couldn't quite see it? That's how this was for me this week.
What hit me was that Jesus was asking for the forgiveness of those who had not repented. Jesus was loving and forgiving his enemy. Sheila something you brought up before really pulled this together for me.
You brought up John 5:19
"Truly, truly I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
Jesus being the reflection of the Father leads us to the knowledge that God also loves and forgives his enemy. He forgives those "who know not what they do". This is not the image ET. It does not gel with unlimited wrath.
Quote from: Nathan on June 28, 2011, 01:53:50 AM
That's a great question to pose to our ET friends. Where are those that crucified Jesus? Are they in heaven? Or are they in hell? If they say they're in hell, then they'd have to admit Jesus' prayer went unanswered. If they went to heaven, then they'd have to deny the eternal damnation of hell. "They" themselves never repented, another point to think about. Jesus forgave them without them asking him to. They didn't even have a repentant heart. Then never "confessed" that Jesus was Lord, nor did they confess that they themselves were sinners (reference to another recent thread about confessing your sins). So . . . were they forgiven or not?
Funny, we posted this thought at almost the same time. :)
what we bind on earth[satan the accusor] is bound in heaven.what we let loose in the earth,is let loose in heaven. Sins you remit or retain on someone[in
unforgiveness] sets satan loose. Now, we know He[Christ] died for all the sins of the world. Now Can we accept and declare that legally God has removed all
accusation of sin off man? Can we accept that legally we all are entitled to the free gift? and dare I ask...can we accept that legally Jesus Christ placed
all sin on the scapegoats head.[see atonement process].and sent him to perish in the wilderness,NEVER TO ENTER THE HOLY CITY
we need to forgive all men their sin..even those caught in the act lest we release satan in our earth,and in our heaven...and he go forth to mislead us
he will subtily insinuate himself in our minds[accusor of the brethern] and we will reap a corruption of spirit/not truth.
remember when the sons of thunder wanted to call down fire on that city that did not receive them[satan himself will cause fire to come down from heaven]
and Jesus told them'YOU KNOW NOT OF WHAT SPIRIT YE ARE OF" again..those who know not what they do.
try Him out on this matter....give Him all the fruit[and this is All the fruit..when I take away ALL their sin] and see if He doesn't open the floodgates of heaven
and pour out a blessing until there is no more want.
Quote from: sheila on June 28, 2011, 02:39:24 AM
what we bind on earth[satan the accusor] is bound in heaven.what we let loose in the earth,is let loose in heaven. Sins you remit or retain on someone[in
unforgiveness] sets satan loose. Now, we know He[Christ] died for all the sins of the world. Now Can we accept and declare that legally God has removed all
accusation of sin off man? Can we accept that legally we all are entitled to the free gift? and dare I ask...can we accept that legally Jesus Christ placed
all sin on the scapegoats head.[see atonement process].and sent him to perish in the wilderness,NEVER TO ENTER THE HOLY CITY
we need to forgive all men their sin..even those caught in the act lest we release satan in our earth,and in our heaven...and he go forth to mislead us
he will subtily insinuate himself in our minds[accusor of the brethern] and we will reap a corruption of spirit/not truth.
remember when the sons of thunder wanted to call down fire on that city that did not receive them[satan himself will cause fire to come down from heaven]
and Jesus told them'YOU KNOW NOT OF WHAT SPIRIT YE ARE OF" again..those who know not what they do.
try Him out on this matter....give Him all the fruit[and this is All the fruit..when I take away ALL their sin] and see if He doesn't open the floodgates of heaven
and pour out a blessing until there is no more want.
Sheila the only fire in here is the heat you're bringing :thumbsup:
Quote from: shawn on June 28, 2011, 02:05:33 AM
Quote from: Nathan on June 28, 2011, 01:53:50 AM
That's a great question to pose to our ET friends. Where are those that crucified Jesus? Are they in heaven? Or are they in hell? If they say they're in hell, then they'd have to admit Jesus' prayer went unanswered. If they went to heaven, then they'd have to deny the eternal damnation of hell. "They" themselves never repented, another point to think about. Jesus forgave them without them asking him to. They didn't even have a repentant heart. Then never "confessed" that Jesus was Lord, nor did they confess that they themselves were sinners (reference to another recent thread about confessing your sins). So . . . were they forgiven or not?
Funny, we posted this thought at almost the same time. :)
Actually, we don't know if they repented or not. We know what Judas did- he was so moved in remorse and self condemnation. Perhaps the events surrounding the death burial and resurrection of Jesus had a similar effect on those who crucified Him- say for instance, like the effect that Stephen's prayer may have had on on Paul. I agree with this tho; Jesus forgave them, and not only that, he interceded for them with the Father- and in my opinion, we, as in the whole human race, are part of the "them" Jesus was asking the Father to forgive.
I believe that confession is the result of "penetration by the light". Every thing that is hidden will be brought to light. Confess your faults one to another and pray for one another that you may be healed..... And they were baptized of Him in the Jordan, confessing their sins......If you walk in the light as He is in the light you will have koinonea and the blood of Jesus will cleanse you from all sin..... He that hides his transgression will not prosper, but he that confesses and forsakes his sin will obtain mercy..... you shall not escape until you pay the last penny, that last penny is confession, from a broken and a contrite heart that has received" truth in the inner man", pierced by the sword of the spirit and divided- "Let There Be Light!"
To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold,
thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
(Psa 51:1-9)
The entire 51rst Psalm is a revelation of the process from hiding, then experiencing destruction, then confessing, then being restored
When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long. For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah. I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found: surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him. Thou art my hiding place; thou shalt preserve me from trouble; thou shalt compass me about with songs of deliverance. Selah. I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye. Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.
(Psa 32:3-9)
To me this is a picture of the lake of fire, the subjecting of the adversaries through adversity ending in a conjunction of 1 Cor 15:23-28 and Phil 2:10,11 with the imagery of being placed in an experience of being suspended in the heart of "unapproachable light" until
every knee bows and every tongue confesses....
A process, I must confess, that I have been through many times myself.
Eaglesway...I agree we don't know. But, I would have to assume if they didn't know...then why would they repent? Judas knew.
But, I must agree we all have our part in those who he interceded for in prayer.
Repentance is necessary for God to flow in us. If God only forgives on His side then, there is no true reconciliation. That's why I think the Roman soldiers who crucified Christ were in the kingdom of Hell until they repent and desire to live in God's house, with God's house rules.
Another thing is that such an act of cruelty, would mean the soldiers would suffer huge shame. Jesus telling them they are forgiven....They can take that hopeful message to Hades that one day they can be reconciled.
:2c:
Really? "That's" the gospel message? It's awfully close to the ET doctrines isn't it? "Jesus forgives you, but you need to repent before reconciliation in you can take place." :dontknow: I can't see myself putting limitations on how far the reaches of God's power, grace, mercy and redemption will go whether or not my tiny little brain can comprehend it. Our "logic" may lay out conditions to how far his hand reaches in our lives, but praise be to God, he doesn't hold that against us.
In every case where redemption is concerned, it's effects are not based on the one in need of the redemption. As has been discussed the soldiers who did the deed in murdering Jesus were not repentant when Jesus prayed that prayer. It doesn't say they did later, but it also doesn't indicate they did. But even when Abraham, he was called righteous even when he was in an unrighteous state.
I see our purpose here is to proclaim the greatness of God's unconditional love and mercy, rather than sharing our assumption of requirements with people who don't even have a relationship with God in the first place. What if there are no preconditions expected of men? What if God's love is just that great where even men who are the worst of sinners could be redeemed by the blood of the Lamb without also those on the receiving end of that redemption having to position themselves to recieve that redemption? How great would "that" be???
Paul was unrepentant until He had an 'encounter'...he spoke as one being born out of season. I beleive Father and Jesus know exactly how to deal
with any born out of season[unrepentant/deceived] at death. Paul also wrote we are NOT to judge those on the outside.Be VERY careful
that you obey the Holy spirit on this matter...and presume...like the presumptous one/babylon
get out of her my people
Quote from: Nathan on June 28, 2011, 03:57:25 PM
Really? "That's" the gospel message? It's awfully close to the ET doctrines isn't it? "Jesus forgives you, but you need to repent before reconciliation in you can take place." :dontknow: I can't see myself putting limitations on how far the reaches of God's power, grace, mercy and redemption will go whether or not my tiny little brain can comprehend it. Our "logic" may lay out conditions to how far his hand reaches in our lives, but praise be to God, he doesn't hold that against us.
In every case where redemption is concerned, it's effects are not based on the one in need of the redemption. As has been discussed the soldiers who did the deed in murdering Jesus were not repentant when Jesus prayed that prayer. It doesn't say they did later, but it also doesn't indicate they did. But even when Abraham, he was called righteous even when he was in an unrighteous state.
I see our purpose here is to proclaim the greatness of God's unconditional love and mercy, rather than sharing our assumption of requirements with people who don't even have a relationship with God in the first place. What if there are no preconditions expected of men? What if God's love is just that great where even men who are the worst of sinners could be redeemed by the blood of the Lamb without also those on the receiving end of that redemption having to position themselves to recieve that redemption? How great would "that" be???
Hence reconciliation.
If men cannot handle Gods purifying fire in the flesh, how will they stand it in the Spirit?
Hell is mans kingdom to escape God.
But in Rev 20 God will force people of out of hell and into his light, causing them to suffer the fire of His justice and purity.
TT flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom
Gal 3;3 are you so foolish,AFTER BEGINNING WITH THE SPIRIT ARE YOU NOW TRYING TO ATTAIN YOUR GOAL BY HUMAN EFFORT. pRAISEGOD
THEY WOULD NOT REPENT OF THE WORK OF THEIR HANDS.
HERE IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE LIVING GOD AND AN IDOL
MAN HAS TO MAKE /FORM AN IDOL...AND CARRY IT..FOR IT HAS NO LIFE....THE LIVING GOD CARRIES US BY HIS SPIRIT
isaaih 66;12 rev 21;10 and He carried me away in the spirit to a mountain great and HIGH
Quote from: sheila on June 28, 2011, 06:00:51 PM
TT flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom
How about resurrected Jesus that let Thomas feel His flesh (and I assume filled with blood) body?
do you not know the High preist changes his garment when entering the Holy of Holies?
what about this body? Rev 1;13 and among the lampstands was someone 'like' a son of man dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet,
and with a golden sash around his chest His head and hair was white like wool,as white as snow,and his eyes were like blazing fire.His feet were like
bronze glowing in a furnace,and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. In his right hand he held seven stars, and OUT OF
HIS MOUTH CAME A SHARP DOUBLE EDGED SWORD.HIS FACE WAS LIKE THE SON SHINING IN ALL IT'S BRILLIANCE
2 Cor 5;16 SO FROM NOW ON WE REGARD NO-ONE FROM A WORLDLY POINT OF VEIW,THOUGH WE ONCE REGARDED CHRIST THIS WAY WE DO SO NO LONGER
Quote from: sheila on June 28, 2011, 06:24:30 PM
do you not know the High preist changes his garment when entering the Holy of Holies?
I know that. And that in itself is proof flesh and blood inherits the kingdom.
how do you understand this,ww 1 Cor 15;50
I DECLARE TO YOU BROTHERS THAT FLESH AND BLOOD CAN NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD,NOR DOES THE PERISHABLE INHERIT
THE IMPERISHABLE. lISTEN,i TELL YOU A MYSTERY,WE WILL NOT ALL SLEEP,BUT WE WILL ALL BE CHANGED-IN A FLASH,
IN A TWINKLING OF AN EYE.FOR THE TRUMPET WILL SOUND,THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED IMPERISHABLE,AND WE WILL BE CHANGED
Jesus is part of the kingdom. Even more He owns it.
I don't think the Jesus that was touched by Thomas was less (or more) holy/perfect than the Jesus that walks around in heaven.
The priest inside the garment is still the same.
It's mentioned several times resurrected Jesus was and can be touched. Imo that was also to prove He could chose to have a solid form.
So how that aligns with the verse you quoted?
I think the resurrected Jesus had, let's call it, superhuman flesh and blood. Glorified flesh and blood.
I can also accept that perhaps Jesus is forced to change garments when entering heaven.
But then He still is the same Jesus that inherited/owns the same kingdom.
:2c:
GOOD UNDERSTANDING WW
...AND i KNOW IT SEEMS AT ODDS THAT FLESH AND BLOOD CAN NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM..WHEN ALL MANKIND DOES INHERIT THE ETERNAL KINGDOM
HIS BODY DID NOT SEE CORRUPTION...[SINLESS] THOUGH ALL OURS HAVE...SO GLAD hE WILL CLOTHE US FROM ON hIGH!
I AGREE HIS BODY WAS HOLY/PERFECT....JUST MAYBE NOT AS GLORIOUS AS IN HEAVEN...AND THAT HE IS THE SAME
:HeartThrob:
I think we're confusing two different kinds of flesh here. Jesus wasn't talking about skin and bones, he was talking about rudiments of the world, doctrines of men that derived from natural reasoning. Touching Jesus side was even more symbolism. God had the power to resurrect Jesus back from the dead, but not enough power to heal the wounds that killed him to begin with? What if the wounds were gone? What if Jesus resurrected body had perfect hands, feet, no scars in his side, would that have changed anything? Whats the significance of the wounds remaining?
That's probably leading away from the main point though.
Flesh and blood that doesn't inherit the kingdom is saying you can't enter into the spiritual understanding through natural thinking. Walk in the spirit not in the flesh . . .is that supposed to then mean that we're to leave our bodies? The logic here sounds much like the logic of Nicodemus . . .how can I be born again? Am I go go back into my mother's womb?
Everything is spiritual.
When it says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, I see it as carnality cannot enter the kingdom.
Or it could simply mean that the powers available to flesh and blood cannot by itself enter the kingdom of God. The Spirit must enter the kingdom of God in power and truth and then after crucifying the desires/will of the flesh, the flesh becomes then becomes slave of the new inner born again man.
But the galatians it seems received the message of Christ, but afterwards began to obtain righteousness through the power of the flesh, which is pride, rahter than through Gods spirit. Not by power or strength, but by My Spirit sayeth the Lord.
Gal 3;3 are you so foolish,AFTER BEGINNING WITH THE SPIRIT ARE YOU NOW TRYING TO ATTAIN YOUR GOAL BY HUMAN EFFORT.
THEY WOULD NOT REPENT OF THE WORK OF THEIR HANDS.
Quote from: thinktank on June 28, 2011, 11:17:30 PM
When it says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, I see it as carnality cannot enter the kingdom.
Yeah, but chaning robes has nothing to do with carnality.
I meant carnality, as in evil, not exclusively lust.
But you brought a good point that I have wondered about and that is,
ok lets say an unholy man dies, their spirit lives on, so their character is still has pride, arrogance, et etc. All these traits can be demonstrated without needing a body, but fornication/carnality on the other hand, needs a body. So I am not sure how a unclean spirit would still have lusts, fornication type sins, maybe they just crave it, but cannot have it.
For every sin is outside the body, but he that fornicates sins against his own body.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 28, 2011, 11:25:55 PM
Quote from: thinktank on June 28, 2011, 11:17:30 PM
When it says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, I see it as carnality cannot enter the kingdom.
Yeah, but chaning robes has nothing to do with carnality.
Sure it does, it's a symbolic picture of being clothed in righteousness. We're still the same "us" under the clothes that the Father puts on us, but it's a proclamation of the transformation that his power has done "for" us and even "in" us.
Quote from: thinktank on June 28, 2011, 11:32:50 PM
I meant carnality, as in evil, not exclusively lust.
But you brought a good point that I have wondered about and that is,
ok lets say an unholy man dies, their spirit lives on, so their character is still has pride, arrogance, et etc. All these traits can be demonstrated without needing a body, but fornication/carnality on the other hand, needs a body. So I am not sure how a unclean spirit would still have lusts, fornication type sins, maybe they just crave it, but cannot have it.
For every sin is outside the body, but he that fornicates sins against his own body.
I don't think any part of any sinful nature crosses over to the spiritual realm . . .I think it's all bound to "this" realm. Death releases us from these bodies that are so influenced by lusts and carnality.
Quote from: Nathan on June 28, 2011, 03:57:25 PM
Really? "That's" the gospel message? It's awfully close to the ET doctrines isn't it? "Jesus forgives you, but you need to repent before reconciliation in you can take place." :dontknow: I can't see myself putting limitations on how far the reaches of God's power, grace, mercy and redemption will go whether or not my tiny little brain can comprehend it. Our "logic" may lay out conditions to how far his hand reaches in our lives, but praise be to God, he doesn't hold that against us.
In every case where redemption is concerned, it's effects are not based on the one in need of the redemption. As has been discussed the soldiers who did the deed in murdering Jesus were not repentant when Jesus prayed that prayer. It doesn't say they did later, but it also doesn't indicate they did. But even when Abraham, he was called righteous even when he was in an unrighteous state.
I see our purpose here is to proclaim the greatness of God's unconditional love and mercy, rather than sharing our assumption of requirements with people who don't even have a relationship with God in the first place. What if there are no preconditions expected of men? What if God's love is just that great where even men who are the worst of sinners could be redeemed by the blood of the Lamb without also those on the receiving end of that redemption having to position themselves to recieve that redemption? How great would "that" be???
I personally don't believe God setting a condition for repentance and for every knee to bow and every tongue confess is "close to ET at all". I believe it can be shown scripturally. J. Preston Eby writes well on it in his Lake of Fire teachings. http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheLakeofFire-Eby.htm
I also don't believe people "have to position themselves", but I do believe the scriptures teach that the Holy Spirit convicts one of their sins and their need for a savior - then God provides the faith to believe and "turn", i.e., repent. It's a bit of a mystery, in that there is a reaction on the receiver's part, but I
also believe that reaction is initiated
by God - when it's that person's time (every man in his own order). It's not our effort, but all one needs to do is review multiple scriptures that show a response to the Spirit's call- still, orchestrated, enabled, and empowered by God.
ET'rs don't believe repentence Or any kind of faith Or any kind of reconciliation is available to Anyone after physical death. To compare someone to ETrs, when they believe EVERY SINGLE BEING will be reconciled to God through Christ is a stretch- even if they do view "every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess...." or that "every adversary will be subjected" from a different perspective. When they asked Peter, "Men and brethren what must we do?" He told them- and He was still in the glory of the first outpouring- full of the Spirit of God. Repentance is a change of viewpoint, confession is a testimony to a new perspective- a manifestation of revelation. It is frequently accompanied by sorrow for sins past but I don't think it always is. I do think it is always a change of perspective and an inward "bowing of the knee" to the Lord Jesus.
Quote from: Nathan on June 29, 2011, 01:56:41 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 28, 2011, 11:25:55 PM
Quote from: thinktank on June 28, 2011, 11:17:30 PM
When it says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, I see it as carnality cannot enter the kingdom.
Yeah, but chaning robes has nothing to do with carnality.
Sure it does, it's a symbolic picture of being clothed in righteousness. We're still the same "us" under the clothes that the Father puts on us, but it's a proclamation of the transformation that his power has done "for" us and even "in" us.
I don't see it that way because the priests/saints change robes when they go in/out of the sanctuary. They change robes AFTER they became priests/saints. The changing of robes is not about becoming priests.
It's more about doing different jobs/duties as a priest/saint. Then they God commands them to wear wool He doesn't mean the have to start acting like sinners.
Below a quote from what I wrote in another thread
Just a wild guess. Linen=spiritual bodies. Wool=natural bodies. :mshock:
ACVEzekiel 4415 But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, who kept the charge of my sanctuary when the sons of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister to me. And they shall stand before me to offer to me the fat an
16 they shall enter into my sanctuary, and they shall come near to my table, to minister to me, and they shall keep my charge.
17 And it shall be that, when they enter in at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with linen garments, and no wool shall come upon them, while they minister in the gates of the inner court, and within.
18 They shall have linen headdresses upon their heads, and shall have linen breeches upon their loins. They shall not gird themselves with [anything that causes] sweat.
19 And when they go forth into the outer court, even into the outer court to the people, they shall put off their garments in which they minister, and lay them in the holy chambers. And they shall put on other garments, that they not
Quote from: jabcat on June 29, 2011, 02:49:36 AMI personally don't believe God setting a condition for repentance and for every knee to bow and every tongue confess is "close to ET at all". I believe it can be shown scripturally.
Depends a bit on what you see as "setting a condition" and how effective that condition is.
If I read verses like ''be judged how you judged others" and "what you forgive others shall be forgivven to you" I get an impression God's courtroom is a hall of mirrors. A person is confronted with him/herself. Is that "set a condition" ?
Quote from: Nathan on June 29, 2011, 01:59:21 AM
[I don't think any part of any sinful nature crosses over to the spiritual realm . . .I think it's all bound to "this" realm. Death releases us from these bodies that are so influenced by lusts and carnality.
what about this scripture?
Zechariah 3
1And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
2And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
3Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
4And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying,
Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.
5And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.
6And the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua, saying,
7Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.
8Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH
Quote from: thinktank on June 29, 2011, 06:45:14 PM
Quote from: Nathan on June 29, 2011, 01:59:21 AM
[I don't think any part of any sinful nature crosses over to the spiritual realm . . .I think it's all bound to "this" realm. Death releases us from these bodies that are so influenced by lusts and carnality.
what about this scripture?
Zechariah 3
1And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
2And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
3Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
4And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.
5And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.
6And the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua, saying,
7Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.
8Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH
I'm not following your line of thought with this .. . are you saying that you see this passage pointing to a person who walks an ungodly line continues to be ungodly after death? I don't see the connection.
Quote from: thinktank on June 29, 2011, 06:45:14 PM
Quote from: Nathan on June 29, 2011, 01:59:21 AM
[I don't think any part of any sinful nature crosses over to the spiritual realm . . .I think it's all bound to "this" realm. Death releases us from these bodies that are so influenced by lusts and carnality.
what about this scripture?
Does satan have fhilty garments.
ACVJob 16 Now it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before LORD, that Satan also came among them.
Doesn't the verse show that in the spiritual realm, sin still exists?
Surely the aim is that sin vanishes.
If one has the opinion that the White Thron e judgement takes place in the spiritual realm then it mean billions of siners enter that realm.
If we see New Jerusalem (also know as New Jersey by Molly :winkgrin:) as spiritual then the sinners stay outside.
I don't know. One think I do know; seeing changing garments as a switch from sinner to saint is to black and white.
Perhaps we should look deeper. Since paul talked about outer garments. My question is what are these garments that Joshuah the High priest has?
If Joshuah took off these garments what would be left?
Some verse in the bible talk about nakedness and people seeing their shame. But Joshuah was clothed with new clean garments and given a diadem.
So maybe the garment change is black and white, but that which in underneath, stays the same and is gradual change.
:2c:
Quote from: thinktank on June 29, 2011, 07:26:02 PM
Perhaps we should look deeper. Since paul talked about outer garments. My question is what are these garments that Joshuah the High priest has?
If Joshuah took off these garments what would be left?
That's very philosophical question TT.
Who is TT? If TT changes skin color is he still TT? Is baby TT the same TT as senior TT? Is TT in a raincoat the same TT as in a t-shirt?
Those may sound like odd questions. Just try to answer them for yourself.
QuoteSo maybe the garment change is black and white, but that which in underneath, stays the same and is gradual change.
I think there at least 3 garment changes in the Bible.
1. The verses I quoted are about dressing correctly for the job. When you are doing gardening you wear different clothes than during your wedding.
2. Jesus also changed garments when He resurrected. From second rate earth fabric to class A+ fabric. (I must say I wonder if Jesus really got a new body... His old body was gone.)
3. Changing suit likely also signifies conversion. In that I agree with you it can be/is gradual.
Note: Jesus also changed garments but in His case it had nothing to do with becoming sinless because He was sinless before and afer death. So nothing really changed.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 29, 2011, 07:02:25 PM
Quote from: thinktank on June 29, 2011, 06:45:14 PM
Quote from: Nathan on June 29, 2011, 01:59:21 AM
[I don't think any part of any sinful nature crosses over to the spiritual realm . . .I think it's all bound to "this" realm. Death releases us from these bodies that are so influenced by lusts and carnality.
what about this scripture?
Does satan have fhilty garments.
ACVJob 1
6 Now it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before LORD, that Satan also came among them.
Yeah, this verse always gets me because people love to use it to prove there is "a" devil/satan . . . here's my problem . . .Jesus cried out on the cross "My God, My God why have you forsaken me!!" Because, as everyone knows, God can not be in the presence of sin, not even look upon it. So when Jesus "became" sin God had to turn his back on him . . .and yet . . . here we are in Job saying that not only did God "not" turn his back on sin . . .he let's the devil come right up to heaven IN the throne room and DICKER with him about who he can and who he can't attack.
You can't have it both ways.
As to Zechariah . . . what? He's caught up in the spirit, that's obvious for all of us to see, and in the spirit, he sees this priest who had become covered in earthiness and of course, there is satan again . . .same as Job, my argument there would again be the same. How is it that this scene can even take place if God can't look upon sin? And how is it that Satan can "be" in God's presence and not be purified? Not be changed? How is it that this satan isn't affected at all? He was evil going in to God's presence and he was evil coming out. Is satan so great that even God can't affect him? We don't hear satan arguing at all here . . .just stating the fact that he's there is enough for people to focus in on the idea that he's a deity.
Keeping in mind also, these references are all old testament . . .before Christ came and finished his purpose on earth, got complete authority in everying on, under, and above the earth . . .I believe what happened on the cross changed how things were done behind the scenes in the spirit as well. I no longer believe that a prince of Persia intersects with an angel with a message on his way to a saint and get's postponed due to warring in the heavenlies . . .I believe Christ put an exclamation point on where the authority is 2000 years ago and the order of things hasn't been the same since. The veil was torn . . .everything changed from that day forward . . .at least that's how I see it to be. But again, the original argument was pertaining to sin remaining after death . . .and my understanding on it remains the same . . death is the last enemy destroyed. Jesus did that through his resurrection as well. So now, when this body passes over through the door of natural death . . .my spirit is freed from the things that had me restrained while in the flesh because carnality is limited to the flesh, not the spirit. Tree of knowledge versus tree of life, the serpent is identified with the tree of knowledge, he's limited to only one realm.
EVERBODY'S OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS IS AS FILTHY RAGS.....nobody up there is going to say...your rags are dirtier then mine
each is given a garment like Christ..like the prodigal
That answers TT's question he asked yesterday on another thread about whether or not sexual sin is worse than general sin, the scripture he quoted was something Paul was saying about how sexual sin was sinning against the body or something of that nature. I can't remember the details or even the name of the thread . . . but what you just said Sheila is a very powerful point in that it means Hitler is no worse and no better than . . .Mother Theresa when it comes to unworthiness.
Hello Nathan. Wow it feels weird you saying I said that yesterday, it felt like I said it only a few hours ago. But what I meant was that Paul said that he who .. here
1 Corinthians 6:18-20
King James Version (KJV)
18Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
I did not say it is a worse sin, simply saying that the sin requires a body. Other sins are outside the body.
So it's possible for other sins to continue after the body dies, but perhaps impossible to commit fornication sins, since the body is dead.
Quote from: sheila on June 29, 2011, 10:23:57 PM
EVERBODY'S OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS IS AS FILTHY RAGS.....nobody up there is going to say...your rags are dirtier then mine
each is given a garment like Christ..like the prodigal
Yes if they have garments.
Revelation 16:15
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and
keepeth his garments, lest he walk
naked, and they see his shame
Mathew 22
11And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12And he saith unto him,
Friend,
how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14For many are called, but few are chosen.
Quote from: thinktank on June 30, 2011, 12:53:40 AM
Hello Nathan. Wow it feels weird you saying I said that yesterday, it felt like I said it only a few hours ago. But what I meant was that Paul said that he who .. here
1 Corinthians 6:18-20
King James Version (KJV)
18Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
I did not say it is a worse sin, simply saying that the sin requires a body. Other sins are outside the body.
So it's possible for other sins to continue after the body dies, but perhaps impossible to commit fornication sins, since the body is dead.
This still has no ligical sense. "If" when we die we are immediately with the Lord as Paul also says, then how can you be with the Lord and continue carrying sin at the same time. For me, sin is in direct connection with carnality, carnality is only in affect in the realm of death and decay . . the realm of the flesh. When we come to the end of our life in the flesh, we cross over into the spirit and leave all the influences of carnality behind us.
Hi All,
Where does it say that "God cannot look upon sin"? I cannot find this. Also, in (Job 15:15) it says "Behold he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, THE HEAVENS ARE NOT CLEAN IN HIS SIGHT. (Job 4:18) Behold he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly. (Job 25: 5) Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; YEA THE STARS ARE NOT PURE IN HIS SIGHT.
(Hab. 1:15)Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: {or grievance} WHEREFORE LOOKETH THOU UPON THEM THAT DEAL TREACHEROUSLY.
As far as Jesus saying while he was on the cross "my God my God why hast thou forsaken me". I don't think this is what Jesus said at all. Jesus said "my Father never leaves me alone because I always do the things that are pleasing to him".
CHB
Quote from: CHB on June 30, 2011, 08:36:32 PM
As far as Jesus saying while he was on the cross "my God my God why hast thou forsaken me". I don't think this is what Jesus said at all. Jesus said "my Father never leaves me alone because I always do the things that are pleasing to him".
"My God, My God for this I was kept" - click (http://www.alamoministries.com/content/english/Gospel_literature/Jesus_Never_Said.html)
I find that translation much more logical.
In the usual translation Jesus has doubt and/or disagreement with Father. Very unlike Jesus I would say...
I don't know "where" Scripture says that about God not being able to look up on sin . . .I know churches preach it as I've heard them directly. But I don't know "where" they pull it from.
The passages in Job, again, before the affects of the cross . . .
As for translation issues . . .I'd never heard of that translation you brought out here WW, that does make it interesting should it be "the" accurate usage. I've always seen it to merely be the natural, the carnal, the fleshly part in that Jesus was all God and all man, that it was the man in him that was crying out, just as I see it to be the same carnal part in him that led him into the wilderness. He couldn't be all man and all God if there weren't times we'd see that part of man in him at one point or another. I think it was also his flesh that was asking for the cup to pass from him . . .he knew the only reason to come and give us resurrection power would be through the pain of death, so for me, regardless of where he was spiritually, his flesh was still having desires of it's own.
"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani"
This is a quote in Aramaic -- meaning "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me" -- attributed in the New Testament to Jesus as he was crucified. In English translation, these words also comprise the beginning of the Twenty-Second Psalm.
Matthew 27:46 - ηλι ηλι λαμα σαβαχθανι (/eli eli lama sabachthani/, later Aramaic "E-lee e-lee l-maa saa-baach-taa-nee?")
Matthew 27:46 (Lamsa translation)- ηλι ηλι λαμανα σαβαχθανι (/eli eli lamana sabachthani/, later Aramaic "E-lee e-lee l-maa-naa saa-baach-taa-nee?")
The late Aramaic Bible researcher George Lamsa claimed that the traditional "forsaken" interpretation is a mistake in the Aramaic scribing that was transferred to later transcriptions. Lamsa claimed that "the correct translation from Aramaic should be "Eli, Eli, lemana shabakthani" or "My God, my God, for this [purpose] I was spared!" or "...for such a purpose have you kept me!") According to Lamsa's translation, that rather than a "loss of faith" Christ meant, to say "so this is my destiny."
Rocco Errico writes about the Aramaic spoken in the recent The Passion of the Christ film: "The Aramaic text does not say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" [Jesus'] words were not a question but a declaration: "My God, my God, for this I was spared! [or "This was my destiny]"..."Interestingly, the recent TV movie Judas portrayed these words correctly."
Among most Christians the former interpretation is still believed to be correct, and the newer Lamsa interpretation, largely unknown to most Christians, and may be considered unusual and even heretical.
Transliterative differences
"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
"My God, my God, [for what reason] have you [forsaken] me?"
"My God, my God, [for what purpose] have thou [] me?"
"My God, my God, [for what (a) purpose] have you [] me!
"My God, my God, [for what (a) purpose] have you [kept] me!
"My God, my God, [for such] [a purpose] was I [kept]!"
"My God, my God, for this [purpose] I was spared!
Heretical? If they think it's heretical . . .then I'm all for it. Seems most everything they think as accurate for me, most of it is just the opposite anyway.
Quote from: Nathan on June 30, 2011, 03:49:26 PM
[ "If" when we die we are immediately with the Lord as Paul also says, then how can you be with the Lord and continue carrying sin at the same time. For me, sin is in direct connection with carnality, carnality is only in affect in the realm of death and decay . . the realm of the flesh. When we come to the end of our life in the flesh, we cross over into the spirit and leave all the influences of carnality behind us.
Talking about the saved, right? I could see that, but I still believe in a time of correction for the unsaved, to bring them to a point of confession of Jesus as Lord.
Quote from: Nathan on June 30, 2011, 09:37:47 PMI've always seen it to merely be the natural, the carnal, the fleshly part in that Jesus was all God and all man, that it was the man in him that was crying out, just as I see it to be the same carnal part in him that led him into the wilderness.
Hu? HS led Him into the wildernes.
He was was the scape goat and the Hs was the strong/fit man/priest leading Him into the wildernes. It's an exact duplicate of the Leviticus scapegoat sacrife.
Dunno, but I think the 40 days in the wildernes took away the sins of teh world. Not the cross or resurection.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 01, 2011, 08:33:11 PM
Quote from: Nathan on June 30, 2011, 09:37:47 PMI've always seen it to merely be the natural, the carnal, the fleshly part in that Jesus was all God and all man, that it was the man in him that was crying out, just as I see it to be the same carnal part in him that led him into the wilderness.
Hu? HS led Him into the wildernes.
He was was the scape goat and the Hs was the strong/fit man/priest leading Him into the wildernes. It's an exact duplicate of the Leviticus scapegoat sacrife.
Dunno, but I think the 40 days in the wildernes took away the sins of teh world. Not the cross or resurection.
I believe you bring up a good point WW, one I'd never really thought about before. I agree, the 40 days seem very important. Good point. It seems to be that's when sins are placed upon "the scapegoat". However, the rest of it is, the slaying of the Lamb, the shedding of its blood, is the final necessary step to actually
take away the sins of the people. IMO, that's why Paul preached so much of the cross. He said he purposed to preach nothing other than Christ and Him crucified. He also said the cross is foolishness to those that are perishing, but to those being saved it is the power of God.
I believe the power is in the shed blood - the Sacrifice.
Saying only the scapegoar was of importance is like saying the rest of His deeds was a waste of time. I'm not implying that.
My 'calculations' seem to point to a baptism on the day of Atonement. To my best understanding that's the most holy day for the Jews. Also the only days God forgives the sins (of the nation).
What many won't like about this paralel is that the scapegoat reprents satan. Then of couse Jesus represents satan too....
http://www.cofac.org/atonement.html
Symbolicly Jesus was killed 3 times.
1] He died when John pushed Him under water in His Grave. That goat was killed and the blood put on the altar.
2] He represented the scapegoat that was left to die in the wildernes.
3] Then of course the passover Lamb.
Leviticus 16 teachers about goat sacrifices.
Jesus was both goats. Jesus presented Himself to (who God considred High Priest) John the Baptist.
Jesus-goat-1 died during baptism in His water grave (Romans 6:4)
---> Jesus died. Jesus was cut of.
EBRLeviticus 16
21 And Aaron shall lean his two hands, upon the head of the living goat, and confess over him, all the iniquities of the sons of Israel, and all their transgressions, to the extent of all their sins,––and shall put them upon the head of the goat, and then send him away, by the hand of a man appointed towards the desert:
All sins were cast on Jesus-goat-2 and He was led into the wilderness by a fit man called Holy Spirit.
I'm starting to wonder what the use of the Lamb sacrifice (cross was). Afterall the perfect goat has carried away all sins.
Hebrews 9:12-14 says,
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered
in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For
if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the
unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh; 14 How much more shall the
blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot
to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Deep thought of the day to get a bit of life on thi forum....
Was Jesus alive during His ministry?
He died in that watery grave. He died in the wilderness. He died on the cross. And got resurrected 3 days later.
Could it be that the 3 days in the grave was the 3 years of ministry. The dead He preached to in the grave was mankind that he called the dead burrying the dead.
I'm aware this view is problematic but still...
whew..what a thread
the sheep know the shepherds voice.....led into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil[tempted like unto us,but without sin/error[I shall put my angels
in charge of you so you shall not stumble] can you see the spotless sheep and the goat in the wilderness? both..one other thing to consider...
there were two goats..and the LORD'S LOT fell on the goat that was burnt on the alter[a sacrifice] now when a sacrifice ascends up in smoke..it is changed
on the alter into another form..consumed of the fire of God! differnce between his goat and ours[he had no sin in his flesh and we
do ours[see how sinful man is enticed or drawn out] and note Jesus was not draw out or deceived in wilderness
another.point/righteousness..those naked and ashamed..are those not clothed in truth[see Adam and Eve in the garden...naked after following a lying spirit of
disobediance or/ and presumptousness] naked but unaware before due to lack of knowledge of truth. The parable of the wedding garment.....truth robe was available
but those who do not know Christ/bridegrrom were thrown out. Now it is not so much that Christ throws them out of the wedding supper,but more of they can'e abide
the meal that is served[thou preparest me a table in the presence of mine enemies]because they are misled by Christ's enemies..or are deceived/clothed in error
or still clothed in their own filthy self-righteousness and have not availed themselves of the righteousnees of Christ and followed the Holy spirit to be taught and led
into all the things pertaining unto Christ
aforetimes in another heaven ..satan dwelled[the accusor and temptor of the brethern] but He was cast out..God rebuked him through Jesus Christ....read
the account where one on the left went forth to deceive.[thrown to the earth]
cursed is anything that hangs on a tree[that is when sin was placed on the goat/on the torture stake...the serpent hanging in the tokogae[he bore our sins]
no sin in his flesh tempted Him in the wilderness..the enticement was outside His body[ours comes from within,d.t sin in our flesh]
Jesus entered the city afterward...the true scapegoat never enters the Holy city. At-one-ment[mind] man and God on the same page/understanding
He seperates the sheep from the goat in each child all are taught of God...any correction after death is just this...what they had not seen they will see
what they had not heard,they will hear...when they rise it is for deliverance from the death realm...and they will be delivered..and treated as the
prodigal was,irregardless of any elder brother mentality. It is His free gift to give,and who shall stop His hand? Shall you? Try it!!
Ezekiel 34;10
this is what the Sovereign Lord says; I MYSELF WILL SEARCH FOR MY SHEEP AND LOOK AFTER THEM. AS A SHEPHERD LOOKS AFTER HIS SCATTERED FLOCK WHEN HE
IS WITH THEM,SO I WILL LOOK AFTER MY SCATTERED SHEEP. I WILL RESCUE THEM FROM ALL THE PLACES THEY WERE SCATTERED ON A DAY OF CLOUDS AND
DARKNESS,I WILL BRING THEM OUT FROM THE NATIONS AND GATHER THEM FROM THE COUNTRIES,AND I WILL BRING THEM INTO THEIR OWN LAND....
I WILL SEARCH FOR THE LOST AND BRING BACK THE STRAYS.I WILL BIND UP THE INJURED AND STREGTHEN THE WEAK,.....BUT THE SLEEK AND
THE STRONG I WILL DESTROY!..........I WILL JUDGE BETWEEN ONE SHEEP AND ANOTHER,AND BETWEEN RAMS AND GOATS....IS IT NOT ENOUGH YOU FEED ON THE
GOOD PASTURE MUST YOU ALSO TRAMPLE THE REST OF YOUR PASTURE WITH YOUR FEET? IS IT NOT ENOUGH FOR YOU TO DRINK CLEAR WATER
MUST YOU ALSO MUDDY THE REST WITH YOUR FEET?[don't muddy the REST OF GOD] MUST MY FLOCK FEED ON WHAT YOU HAVE TRAMPLED?
YOU MY SHEEP,THE SHEEP OF MY PASTURE,ARE PEOPLE,AND I AM YOUR GOD,declares the Sovereign Lord
If a sheep belongs to God and a goat is a rebellious sheep. I wonder what a Ram represents
there was a ram in the bush...It was offered up,instead of the son of promise. amazing what you find in I AMBUSH. I have heard that the ram is the Holy spirit
on the blessing side.....look at this ram. Daniel 8 vision of a ram and goat........no animal could stand against him,and
none could rescue from his power.he did as he pleased and became great...as I was thinking about this a goat with a prominent horn between
his eyes came from the west,crossing the whole earth without touching the ground.He came toward the two-horned ram.....I saw him
attacking the ram furiously,striking the ram and shattering his two horns.The ram was powerless to stand against him the goat knocked him to the ground and trampled on him[trampling of gentiles],and none could resuce the ram from his power
[goat] out of one of them came another horn,which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east AND TOWARD THE BEAUTIFUL LAND
IT GREW UNTIL IT REACHED THE HOST OF HEAVENS and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and TRAMPLED THEM...it set
itself up to be as great as the prince of the host...it took away the daily sacrifice from him,and the place of his sanctuary was brought low....
Gabriel, tell the man the meaning of the vision......25.....he will cause deceit to prosper and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure he will
destroy many AND TAKE HIS STAND AGAINST THE PRINCE OF PRINCES. YET HE WILL BE DESTROYED BUT NOT BY HUMAN HANDS
from his power
Now, Daniel also prophesied that the saints would be overcome..til the court sit. Do you see where the testimony of the Holy spirit was wrecked...and
overcome with babylon doctrines and deceit. Note; no animal could stand before the ram...because the Holy spirit kills animals/or carnal understandings
rise Peter,kill and eat[3 times]. no beast can touch the mountain and live..so the deceit was already entering,as Paul warned..many anti-christs
that stone not cut out by human hands.[revelation of God/revelation of Christ/revelation of godliness/revelation of ungodliness/ revelation of son of
perdition.revelation of son of man/revelation of sons of God./revelation of man of sin../revelation of the GLORY OF GOD...... .become a mountain of REVELATION
Quote from: sheila on July 02, 2011, 09:19:59 PM
there was a ram in the bush...It was offered up,instead of the son of promise. amazing what you find in I AMBUSH. I have heard that the ram is the Holy spirit
on the blessing side.....look at this ram. Daniel 8 vision of a ram and goat........no animal could stand against him,and
none could rescue from his power.he did as he pleased and became great...as I was thinking about this a goat with a prominent horn between
his eyes came from the west,crossing the whole earth without touching the ground.He came toward the two-horned ram.....I saw him
attacking the ram furiously,striking the ram and shattering his two horns.The ram was powerless to stand against him the goat knocked him to the ground and trampled on him[trampling of gentiles],and none could resuce the ram from his power
[goat] out of one of them came another horn,which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east AND TOWARD THE BEAUTIFUL LAND
IT GREW UNTIL IT REACHED THE HOST OF HEAVENS and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and TRAMPLED THEM...it set
itself up to be as great as the prince of the host...it took away the daily sacrifice from him,and the place of his sanctuary was brought low....
Gabriel, tell the man the meaning of the vision......25.....he will cause deceit to prosper and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure he will
destroy many AND TAKE HIS STAND AGAINST THE PRINCE OF PRINCES. YET HE WILL BE DESTROYED BUT NOT BY HUMAN HANDS
from his power
Not sure what your getting at here. The goat is a symbol of a rebellious wicked person/ a wicked nation or a child of the devil, which in Daniels scripture Goat destroys/tramples the Ram. So the Ram cannot be the holy spirit in this instance. The Ram in Daniel represents a nation that is trampled upon and destroyed by the rebellious goat nation.
The Ram being a male sheep should be in theory a powerful sheep(Leader :dontknow:). But I was wondering if anyone as any other take on it. But thanks for the suggestion of the Ram being the holy spirit, it might fit in other scriptures ,but not in Daniels book.
Hi TT
reconsider.....the kingdom of darkness versus the kingdom of light...two kingdoms two nations............the dragon trampled the saints
consider all the doctrines in babylon churches....and tell me how the Holy spirit guided the churches into such chaos.
Quote from: sheila on July 03, 2011, 07:42:25 PM
Hi TT
reconsider.....the kingdom of darkness versus the kingdom of light...two kingdoms two nations............the dragon trampled the saints
consider all the doctrines in babylon churches....and tell me how the Holy spirit guided the churches into such chaos.
Wow, that makes a lot of sense! Okay so speaking of Babylon, I had a crazy dream the other night and I was wondering if anyone might know if it has meaning... but I will start a different thread so as not to highjack this one. :D