tHEY KNOW not WHAT THEY DO

[sheila]

     dO YOU BELEIVE THAT ?   yOU SHOULD    REALLY,REALLY BELEIVE IT. fOR THE FAITHFUL AND TRUE WITTNESS SPOKE IT

     DO DECEIVED PEOPLE KNOW THAT THEIR DECEIVED? NO,THEY DON'T....THEY EVEN THINK THEY ARE DOING GOD A FAVOUR AND DO HIS WILL

    can you say...FATHER FORGIVE THEM,THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO?


   AH DECEPTION...THE BANE OF ADAM


   LETS EXAMINE THAT WILEY DECEPTOR...THAT COVERING CHERUB.......THERE HE IS IN THE GARDEN,CLINGING IN A LIMB OF THE TOKOGAE.....WHAT?

CAN aDAM KNOW GOOD AND EVIL WHEN HE STARTS OUT DECEIVED? FATHER FORGIVE THEM,THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO.


       [THERE I SEE HIM SITTING IN THE SEAT OF MOSES[i SEE HE MADE IT ,I WONDERED AFTER MICHAEL SAID,THE LORD REBUKE THEE]

       THE LORD DID REBUKE HIM,BUT REBUKE A FOOL AND YOU WILL INCUR INJURY


     CAN YOU SAY,FATHER FORGIVEN THEM..THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO?

      CALL NO MAN A FOOL, DID YOU EVER WONDER WHY HE SAID THAT?

   IT IS BETTER TO HEED A WISE MAN'S REBUKE, THEN TO LISTEN TO THE SONGS OF FOOLS. THE PHARISEES  WOULD HAVE BENEFITTED FROM THAT

LITTLE PEARL OD WISDOM

  IF YOU FOOL SOMEONE YOU DECEIVE THEM

   WHO IS THIS PROFESSIONAL COURT JESTER WHO DECEIVES

   HE SAID CALL NO MAN A FOOL...JUST AS HE SAID,FROM NOW ON CALL NO MAN ON EARTH YOUR FATHER.

  FATHER FORGIVE THEM,THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO

   

[sheila]

p.s.

     can you releif along with me..that finally He sent down Jesus Christ...someone who KNEW WHAT HE WAS DOING!!!

[lomarah]

Amen Sheila! Your posts bless me greatly.  :cloud9:

[Nathan]

That's a great question to pose to our ET friends.  Where are those that crucified Jesus?  Are they in heaven?  Or are they in hell?  If they say they're in hell, then they'd have to admit Jesus' prayer went unanswered.  If they went to heaven, then they'd have to deny the eternal damnation of hell.  "They" themselves never repented, another point to think about.  Jesus forgave them without them asking him to.  They didn't even have a repentant heart.  Then never "confessed" that Jesus was Lord, nor did they confess that they themselves were sinners (reference to another recent thread about confessing your sins).  So . . . were they forgiven or not?

[shawn]

This verse was placed on my heart this week.  Have you ever known you were being led to a verse, knew it contained a significant truth, yet couldn't quite see it?  That's how this was for me this week.

What hit me was that Jesus was asking for the forgiveness of those who had not repented.  Jesus was loving and forgiving his enemy.  Sheila something you brought up before really pulled this together for me. 

You brought up John 5:19

"Truly, truly I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

Jesus being the reflection of the Father leads us to the knowledge that God also loves and forgives his enemy.  He forgives those "who know not what they do".  This is not the image ET.  It does not gel with unlimited wrath.

[shawn]

That's a great question to pose to our ET friends.  Where are those that crucified Jesus?  Are they in heaven?  Or are they in hell?  If they say they're in hell, then they'd have to admit Jesus' prayer went unanswered.  If they went to heaven, then they'd have to deny the eternal damnation of hell.  "They" themselves never repented, another point to think about.  Jesus forgave them without them asking him to.  They didn't even have a repentant heart.  Then never "confessed" that Jesus was Lord, nor did they confess that they themselves were sinners (reference to another recent thread about confessing your sins).  So . . . were they forgiven or not?

Funny, we posted this thought at almost the same time.  :)

[sheila]

    what we bind on earth[satan the accusor] is bound in heaven.what we let loose in the earth,is let loose in heaven. Sins you remit or retain on someone[in

  unforgiveness] sets satan loose. Now, we know He[Christ] died for all the sins of the world. Now Can we accept and declare that legally God has removed all

accusation of sin off man? Can we accept that legally we all are entitled to the free gift?    and dare I ask...can we accept that legally Jesus Christ placed

all sin on the scapegoats head.[see atonement process].and sent him to perish in the wilderness,NEVER TO ENTER THE HOLY CITY


  we need to forgive all men their sin..even those caught in the act   lest we release satan in our earth,and in our heaven...and he go forth to mislead us

   he will subtily insinuate himself in our minds[accusor of the brethern] and we will reap a corruption of spirit/not truth.


   remember when the sons of thunder wanted to call down fire on that city that did not receive them[satan himself will cause fire to come down from heaven]

  and Jesus told them'YOU KNOW NOT OF WHAT SPIRIT YE ARE OF"   again..those who know not what they do.


    try Him out on this matter....give Him all the fruit[and this is All the fruit..when I take away ALL their sin] and see if He doesn't open the floodgates of heaven

and pour out a blessing until there is no more want.

[redhotmagma]

    what we bind on earth[satan the accusor] is bound in heaven.what we let loose in the earth,is let loose in heaven. Sins you remit or retain on someone[in

  unforgiveness] sets satan loose. Now, we know He[Christ] died for all the sins of the world. Now Can we accept and declare that legally God has removed all

accusation of sin off man? Can we accept that legally we all are entitled to the free gift?    and dare I ask...can we accept that legally Jesus Christ placed

all sin on the scapegoats head.[see atonement process].and sent him to perish in the wilderness,NEVER TO ENTER THE HOLY CITY


  we need to forgive all men their sin..even those caught in the act   lest we release satan in our earth,and in our heaven...and he go forth to mislead us

   he will subtily insinuate himself in our minds[accusor of the brethern] and we will reap a corruption of spirit/not truth.


   remember when the sons of thunder wanted to call down fire on that city that did not receive them[satan himself will cause fire to come down from heaven]

  and Jesus told them'YOU KNOW NOT OF WHAT SPIRIT YE ARE OF"   again..those who know not what they do.


    try Him out on this matter....give Him all the fruit[and this is All the fruit..when I take away ALL their sin] and see if He doesn't open the floodgates of heaven

and pour out a blessing until there is no more want.

Sheila the only fire in here is the heat you're bringing  :thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

That's a great question to pose to our ET friends.  Where are those that crucified Jesus?  Are they in heaven?  Or are they in hell?  If they say they're in hell, then they'd have to admit Jesus' prayer went unanswered.  If they went to heaven, then they'd have to deny the eternal damnation of hell.  "They" themselves never repented, another point to think about.  Jesus forgave them without them asking him to.  They didn't even have a repentant heart.  Then never "confessed" that Jesus was Lord, nor did they confess that they themselves were sinners (reference to another recent thread about confessing your sins).  So . . . were they forgiven or not?

Funny, we posted this thought at almost the same time.  :)

Actually, we don't know if they repented or not. We know what Judas did- he was so moved in remorse and self condemnation. Perhaps the events surrounding the death burial and resurrection of Jesus had a similar effect on those who crucified Him- say for instance, like the effect that Stephen's prayer may have had on on Paul. I agree with this tho; Jesus forgave them, and not only that, he interceded for them with the Father- and in my opinion, we, as in the whole human race, are part of the "them" Jesus was asking the Father to forgive.

I believe that confession is the result of "penetration by the light". Every thing that is hidden will be brought to light. Confess your faults one to another and pray for one another that you may be healed..... And they were baptized of Him in the Jordan, confessing their sins......If you walk in the light as He is in the light you will have koinonea and the blood of Jesus will cleanse you from all sin..... He that hides his transgression will not prosper, but he that confesses and forsakes his sin will obtain mercy..... you shall not escape until you pay the last penny, that last penny is confession, from a broken and a contrite heart that has received" truth in the inner man", pierced by the sword of the spirit and divided- "Let There Be Light!"

To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
(Psa 51:1-9)

The entire 51rst Psalm is a revelation of the process from hiding, then experiencing destruction, then confessing, then being restored

When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long. For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah. I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found: surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him. Thou art my hiding place; thou shalt preserve me from trouble; thou shalt compass me about with songs of deliverance. Selah. I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye. Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.
(Psa 32:3-9)

To me this is a picture of the lake of fire, the subjecting of the adversaries through adversity ending in a conjunction of 1 Cor 15:23-28 and Phil 2:10,11 with the imagery of being placed in an experience of being suspended in the heart of "unapproachable light" until every knee bows and every tongue confesses....

A process, I must confess, that I have been through many times myself.

[shawn]

Eaglesway...I agree we don't know.  But, I would have to assume if they didn't know...then why would they repent?  Judas knew.

But, I must agree we all have our part in those who he interceded for in prayer.

[thinktank]

Repentance is necessary for God to flow in us. If God only forgives on His side then, there is no true reconciliation. That's why I think the Roman soldiers who crucified Christ were in the kingdom of Hell until they repent and desire to live in God's house, with God's house rules.

Another thing is that such an act of cruelty, would mean the soldiers would suffer huge shame. Jesus telling them they are forgiven....They can take that hopeful message to Hades that one day they can be reconciled.

:2c:

[Nathan]

Really?  "That's" the gospel message?  It's awfully close to the ET doctrines isn't it?  "Jesus forgives you, but you need to repent before reconciliation in you can take place."   :dontknow:  I can't see myself putting limitations on how far the reaches of God's power, grace, mercy and redemption will go whether or not my tiny little brain can comprehend it.  Our "logic" may lay out conditions to how far his hand reaches in our lives, but praise be to God, he doesn't hold that against us. 

In every case where redemption is concerned, it's effects are not based on the one in need of the redemption.  As has been discussed the soldiers who did the deed in murdering Jesus were not repentant when Jesus prayed that prayer.  It doesn't say they did later, but it also doesn't indicate they did.  But even when Abraham, he was called righteous even when he was in an unrighteous state. 

I see our purpose here is to proclaim the greatness of God's unconditional love and mercy, rather than sharing our assumption of requirements with  people who don't even have a relationship with God in the first place.  What if there are no preconditions expected of men?  What if God's love is just that great where even men who are the worst of sinners could be redeemed by the blood of the Lamb without also those on the receiving end of that redemption having to position themselves to recieve that redemption?  How great would "that" be???

[sheila]

 
   Paul was unrepentant until He had an 'encounter'...he spoke as one being born out of season.  I beleive Father and Jesus know exactly how to deal

  with any born out of season[unrepentant/deceived] at death. Paul also wrote we are NOT to judge those on the outside.Be VERY careful

  that you obey the Holy spirit on this matter...and presume...like the presumptous one/babylon

  get out of her my people

[thinktank]

Really?  "That's" the gospel message?  It's awfully close to the ET doctrines isn't it?  "Jesus forgives you, but you need to repent before reconciliation in you can take place."   :dontknow:  I can't see myself putting limitations on how far the reaches of God's power, grace, mercy and redemption will go whether or not my tiny little brain can comprehend it.  Our "logic" may lay out conditions to how far his hand reaches in our lives, but praise be to God, he doesn't hold that against us. 

In every case where redemption is concerned, it's effects are not based on the one in need of the redemption.  As has been discussed the soldiers who did the deed in murdering Jesus were not repentant when Jesus prayed that prayer.  It doesn't say they did later, but it also doesn't indicate they did.  But even when Abraham, he was called righteous even when he was in an unrighteous state. 

I see our purpose here is to proclaim the greatness of God's unconditional love and mercy, rather than sharing our assumption of requirements with  people who don't even have a relationship with God in the first place.  What if there are no preconditions expected of men?  What if God's love is just that great where even men who are the worst of sinners could be redeemed by the blood of the Lamb without also those on the receiving end of that redemption having to position themselves to recieve that redemption?  How great would "that" be???

Hence reconciliation.

If men cannot handle Gods purifying fire in the flesh, how will they stand it in the Spirit?

Hell is mans kingdom to escape God.

But in Rev 20 God will force people of out of hell and into his light, causing them to suffer the fire of His justice and purity.

[sheila]

TT    flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom


   Gal 3;3 are you so foolish,AFTER BEGINNING WITH THE SPIRIT ARE YOU NOW TRYING TO ATTAIN YOUR GOAL BY HUMAN EFFORT. pRAISEGOD

   THEY WOULD NOT REPENT OF THE WORK OF THEIR HANDS.

      HERE IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE LIVING GOD AND AN IDOL

   MAN HAS TO MAKE /FORM AN IDOL...AND CARRY IT..FOR IT HAS NO LIFE....THE LIVING GOD CARRIES US BY HIS SPIRIT

   isaaih 66;12      rev 21;10       and He carried me away in the spirit to a mountain great and HIGH 

[WhiteWings]

TT    flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom

How about resurrected Jesus that let Thomas feel His flesh (and I assume filled with blood) body?

[sheila]

 do you not know the High preist changes his garment when entering the Holy of Holies?

  what about this body?   Rev 1;13  and among the lampstands was someone 'like' a son of man dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet,

and with a golden sash around his chest  His head and hair was white like wool,as white as snow,and his eyes were like blazing fire.His feet were like

bronze glowing in a furnace,and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. In his right hand he held seven stars, and OUT OF

  HIS MOUTH CAME A SHARP DOUBLE EDGED SWORD.HIS FACE WAS LIKE THE SON SHINING IN ALL IT'S BRILLIANCE


   2 Cor 5;16   SO FROM NOW ON WE REGARD NO-ONE FROM A WORLDLY POINT OF VEIW,THOUGH WE ONCE REGARDED CHRIST THIS WAY WE DO SO NO LONGER

[WhiteWings]

do you not know the High preist changes his garment when entering the Holy of Holies?

I know that. And that in itself is proof flesh and blood inherits the kingdom.

[sheila]

how do you understand this,ww 1 Cor 15;50

     I DECLARE TO YOU BROTHERS THAT FLESH AND BLOOD CAN NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD,NOR DOES THE PERISHABLE INHERIT

    THE IMPERISHABLE. lISTEN,i TELL YOU A MYSTERY,WE WILL NOT ALL SLEEP,BUT WE WILL ALL BE CHANGED-IN A FLASH,

    IN A TWINKLING OF AN EYE.FOR THE TRUMPET WILL SOUND,THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED IMPERISHABLE,AND WE WILL BE CHANGED

   

[WhiteWings]

Jesus is part of the kingdom. Even more He owns it.
I don't think the Jesus that was touched by Thomas was less (or more) holy/perfect than the Jesus that walks around in heaven.
The priest inside the garment is still the same.
It's mentioned several times resurrected Jesus was and can be touched. Imo that was also to prove He could chose to have a solid form.

So how that aligns with the verse you quoted?
I think the resurrected Jesus had, let's call it, superhuman flesh and blood. Glorified flesh and blood.
I can also accept that perhaps Jesus is forced to change garments when entering heaven.
But then He still is the same Jesus that inherited/owns the same kingdom.
:2c:

[sheila]

 GOOD UNDERSTANDING WW

...AND i KNOW IT SEEMS AT ODDS THAT FLESH AND BLOOD CAN NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM..WHEN ALL MANKIND DOES INHERIT THE ETERNAL KINGDOM

   HIS BODY DID NOT SEE CORRUPTION...[SINLESS] THOUGH ALL OURS HAVE...SO GLAD hE WILL CLOTHE US FROM ON hIGH!

     I AGREE HIS BODY WAS HOLY/PERFECT....JUST MAYBE NOT AS GLORIOUS AS IN HEAVEN...AND THAT HE IS THE SAME

                                                                    :HeartThrob:

[Nathan]

I think we're confusing two different kinds of flesh here.  Jesus wasn't talking about skin and bones, he was talking about rudiments of the world, doctrines of men that derived from natural reasoning.  Touching Jesus side was even more symbolism.  God had the power to resurrect Jesus back from the dead, but not enough power to heal the wounds that killed him to begin with?  What if the wounds were gone?  What if Jesus resurrected body had perfect hands, feet, no scars in his side, would that have changed anything?  Whats the significance of the wounds remaining?

That's probably leading away from the main point though.

Flesh and blood that doesn't inherit the kingdom is saying you can't enter into the spiritual understanding through natural thinking.  Walk in the spirit not in the flesh . . .is that supposed to then mean that we're to leave our bodies?  The logic here sounds much like the logic of Nicodemus . . .how can I be born again?  Am I go go back into my mother's womb?

Everything is spiritual.

[thinktank]

When it says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, I see it as carnality cannot enter the kingdom.


Or it could simply mean that the powers available to flesh and blood cannot by itself enter the kingdom of God. The Spirit must enter the kingdom of God in power and truth and then after crucifying the desires/will of the flesh, the flesh becomes then becomes slave of the new inner born again man.
But the galatians it seems received the message of Christ, but afterwards began to obtain righteousness through the power of the flesh, which is pride, rahter than through Gods spirit. Not by power or strength, but by My Spirit sayeth the Lord.


Gal 3;3 are you so foolish,AFTER BEGINNING WITH THE SPIRIT ARE YOU NOW TRYING TO ATTAIN YOUR GOAL BY HUMAN EFFORT.

   THEY WOULD NOT REPENT OF THE WORK OF THEIR HANDS.

[WhiteWings]

When it says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, I see it as carnality cannot enter the kingdom.

Yeah, but chaning robes has nothing to do with carnality.

[thinktank]

I meant carnality, as in evil, not exclusively lust.

But you brought a good point that I have wondered about and that is,

ok lets say an unholy man dies, their spirit lives on, so their character is still has pride, arrogance, et etc. All these traits can be demonstrated without needing a body, but fornication/carnality on the other hand, needs a body. So I am not sure how a unclean spirit would still have lusts, fornication type sins, maybe they just crave it, but cannot have it.

For every sin is outside the body, but he that fornicates sins against his own body.