Holy Spirit in everyone?

[jabcat]

OK, so Jesus and/or the Holy Spirit was in Hitler as he brutally tortured and murdered thousands?   

[Beloved Servant]

As all will be saved; all are believers — they just don't know it yet!

[Molly]

OK, so Jesus and/or the Holy Spirit was in Hitler as he brutally tortured and murdered thousands?   

yikes.  Who said that?

That is clearly not true.

[Molly]

It appears to me, that anyone is saying that (maybe won't admit it) that says Jesus and the Holy Spirit is already in everyone.  If not, how do the two views reconcile? 

I think most people have a conscience [although I doubt Hitler did).  So to the extent that people have a conscience I think you construe that to say their flesh has been impacted somehow by the Holy Spirit or by Christ.  Paul says they are a law unto to themselves.  But that doesn't mean they have the indwelling HS, clearly by all the passages we have read.

Romans 2:14
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

[jabcat]

And it appears anyone is saying that (maybe won't admit it) that says Jesus and the Holy Spirit is already in everyone.  If not, how do the two views reconcile?

I think most people have a conscience [although I doubt Hitler did).  So to the extent that people have a conscience I think you construe that to say their flesh has been impacted somehow by the Holy Spirit or by Christ.  Paul says they are a law unto to themselves.  But that doesn't mean they have the indwelling HS, clearly by all the passages we have read.

Romans 2:14
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

amen Molly.  thank you for your pertinent comment and i agree.  i believe it's the distinction between being 'acted on' and being indwelt.

[jabcat]

the thread is unlocked from its brief lock to clean it up.  back on topic please, anything personal needs to go to pm plz.  thanks.

[bushy]

I think that believing isn't what makes God give us salvation or the Spirit, as if it's a reward for believing. "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free". When we believe the truth we are set free as far as we know and understand the truth. It's a bit of a mystery just what happens inside of a person when we believe. Heb 4:2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard. It sounds to me like there isn't much difference in anyone in the sight of God, but some are freer than others and understand spiritial things more, like maybe farther down the road we all will eventually travel. Just my ideas and I hope they fit in.

[jabcat]

thanks for your input bushy. 


Very gently, IMO, there are clear scriptures that link believing to salvation.  Here's one;  Acts 16:31   "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.."


To an earlier comment (connected to the "everyone already has the Holy Spirit")  "everyone's already a believer, they just don't know it yet"...  how can that be true when there is such distinction made as follows?  (Also, re: another comment, "not much difference in anyone in God's eyes"?)

Rom.15.31     that I may be delivered from the unbelievers in Judea, and that my service for Jerusalem may be acceptable to the saints,
1Cor.14.22    Thus, tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is not for unbelievers but for believers.
1Cor.14.23     If, therefore, the whole church assembles and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?
1Cor.14.24     But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all,
2Cor.4.4     In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ..   
2Cor.6.14     Do not be mismated with unbelievers. For what partnership have righteousness and iniquity? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?
2Cor.6.15     What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?
1Tim.5.8     If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.


I believe it's more accurate to say,  all will be filled?  All will be saved.  All will believe.  When God's righteousness covers the earth, every knee bows/every tongue confesses Jesus is Lord - when God becomes All in All.  Yes, He's declared it, and it WILL happen.  Maybe in God's mind and "time" it has already happened.  But we live in THESE time constraints and with the realities of "Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." 

I need to continually pray/meditate upon,  and have much room to grow and improve in the following;  "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth."  2 Tim. 2:15

[Molly]

the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.

This is a really interesting translation because here we see that when the believers hear the word they are united with it by faith.  What is the Word? Christ.  What is faith?  Christ.  So it's like two magnets coming together.  They are attracting each other.

John 10:4
When he has brought all of his own sheep out, he goes on ahead of them. His sheep follow him because they know his voice.

[micah7:9]

To the question asked...........................................No, aye will stay,

[WhiteWings]

^ACVGen 6
3 And LORD said, My spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he also is flesh. Yet shall his days be a hundred and twenty years.

[bushy]

Everyone is a believer doesn't make any sense at all to me. What I was saying is that the truth is the truth whether we believe it or not, but it doesn't benefit us unless mixed with faith. Believing the truth brings life and not believing the truth is death. The Father has lots of kids and some need more discipline than others the same as a natural family to bring us all into line.

Personally I always believed all the bible stories but no way did that satisfy. When I finally believed the Truth deeper (called faith I guess) I was set free like the truth does. I think for me I had a hard time because it seemed like I had to make something happen or wait for God to do something to be saved but finally understood the truth when my eyes were opened and then of course I believed and was saved. But it was really all already done before I believed or understood anything.  I think that what goes on inside of us is a pretty big mystery for the most part.

As far as recieving  the Holy Spirit I think it comes with life. James 2:26 The body without the spirit is dead.

[Molly]

As far as recieving  the Holy Spirit I think it comes with life. James 2:26 The body without the spirit is dead.

I think that is spirit with a small 's'--as in the spirit of man-- not the Holy Spirit.


Ecclesiastes 3:21
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

[lomarah]

OK, so Jesus and/or the Holy Spirit was in Hitler as he brutally tortured and murdered thousands?   

I believe He was there pleading for Hitler to stop. He is the light that enlightens every man. (This includes Hitler.)

[thinktank]

Just because someone uses the power of  God to do evil, doesn't mean they have God in them.

If I build a television set, that doesn't make me into a television set, but my workmanship is upon it's design.

Job 12
9Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this?

10In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

[bushy]

I think that is spirit with a small 's'--as in the spirit of man-- not the Holy Spirit.

Hi Molly, I think so too but maybe it's both.

John 6:38 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

When we believe, the life we recieve is spiritial so it is the HS who gives that life. Like I keep saying, what goes on inside of us is pretty hard to know. The only thing important about understanding this is it affects how we look at other people, like are they lessers or are we equals all in the same boat?

[micah7:9]

OK, so Jesus and/or the Holy Spirit was in Hitler as he brutally tortured and murdered thousands?   

I believe He was there pleading for Hitler to stop. He is the light that enlightens every man. (This includes Hitler.)

"Pleading"? :thumbdown: :sigh: PLEADING?! I could not even reason with that thought!

[lomarah]

Why not?  :dontknow: Isn't that what our conscience does? Okay maybe pleading wasn't the right word to use then.
Telling him not to? Reasoning with him not to?

[micah7:9]

Why not?  :dontknow: Isn't that what our conscience does? Okay maybe pleading wasn't the right word to use then.
Telling him not to? Reasoning with him not to?

Yeah it was the wrong word for me anyway :winkgrin: Also no I do not believe He told hitler not to, and He did not try to reason with Stalin, of Manson, or Saddam Hussien. To say that The God Creator would do either of those things, it would be admitting HE had made some error in any of those aforementioned human beings. But I fear I have ventured into one of the taboo thoughts.

[WhiteWings]

OTOH if you read the OT you see God commands something. The Jews kept disobeying and God's grace time ran out. Then "suddenly" the Jews are at war. Likely during those wars Stalin like things happened.

[WhiteWings]

Also no I do not believe He told hitler not to, and He did not try to reason with Stalin, of Manson, or Saddam Hussien. To say that The God Creator would do either of those things, it would be admitting HE had made some error in any of those aforementioned human beings.

Parents also reason with their children. Not because they were wrong but to let their children overthink their own actions.

[lomarah]

Thank you WW, that's exactly what I would've said. :)

[rosered]

 
   :msealed:

[micah7:9]

Quote from: micah7:9 on June 09, 2011, 07:19:05 PM
Also no I do not believe He told hitler not to, and He did not try to reason with Stalin, of Manson, or Saddam Hussien. To say that The God Creator would do either of those things, it would be admitting HE had made some error in any of those aforementioned human beings.
"Parents also reason with their children. Not because they were wrong but to let their children overthink their own actions." WW

Lomarah  "Thank you WW, that's exactly what I would've said. :)"

I dont see it that way. I have to believe God made Hitler and the others for the very purpose of what they did.
Mal 3:6  For I, Jehovah, change not; therefore ye, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.

Are you saying that " if or should" God  had intervened, then history, like the Holocaust would not have happened, exed out of our history?

But I fear that I trend closely on the edge of a taboo subject.  Sorry. :sigh:

[lomarah]

I honestly have no idea Micah. I know that God does intervene in some places (look at much of the OT). But He also has an omnipotent plan for the ages. I believe that He did give us each the ability to choose between good and evil but that He is also working things according to His will. In the words of Rob Bell, "Free will and the omnipotence of God? Yep." It's sort of like the election/predestination vs. free will debate... I believe in both of those things, that they each work together simultaneously though my mind obviously can't comprehend it totally. I don't know. I certainly don't have it all figured out, this is just my present point of view.

And rosered I also believe this is a learning ground, but I believe it is a learning ground for every man and that we all do have a conscience and ability to choose between right and wrong. And yes Micah I do believe we are on taboo territory here. (Cue warning from Jab. lol!) :)