Lake of Fire = Molten sea of glass = Laver

[micah7:9]

"Micah,
You have to be aware that what's translated as breath does not always have the same underlaying Hebrew word."

Thank you WW, I am very aware of that, and thats why many have become unsure of many things. Gen. 2:7 the breath of life is just that, it was the very first, breath, wind, puff into the mist and dust of man.
The breath of life made man/adam/dust a living soul. Now that is a simple understanding, that breath of life got mankind going. It is the repition of breathing in and out, unconciouslly. Life/Living  H2416  chay  From H2421; alive; hence raw (flesh); fresh  H2421  châyâh A prim root (compare H2331, H2424); to live,

Gen 3:20  And the man calleth his wife's name Eve: for she hath been mother of all living.
Jesus said Joh 10:10  `The thief doth not come, except that he may steal, and kill, and destroy; I came that they may have life, and may have it abundantly.
I do not reason that this life abundantly is the the breath of life of Gen. 2:7

PS I did see the destroy deffintion of breath

[thinktank]

 :thumbsup:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: My  :2c:.....

Life = the Son
Life more abundantly = the Father also

Life more abundantly is the Seed that REMAINS......(death swallowed up of life, not UN-clothed, but clothed upon)

This is why it says you can't have the Father without the Son, nor the Son without the Father.

[micah7:9]

:cloud9: Quickly, before I have to get some sleep.....@ pneuma, excellent posts  :HeartThrob:

@ WW......here's how the two "positions" are reconciled. If we are blameless because we have laid whatever needs to be consumed, down, then the fire only comes to burn up the chaff, so His anger is directed at it, and it is destroyed but we ourselves suffer no loss.

If we have overcome whatever it is, thru His Spirit in us, then when the fire comes, instead of the letter of it bringing condemnation to the flesh, it burns not at all, and brings healing (wholeness) to whatever it touches. That wholeness manifests as an opening of the eyes of our understanding to the SPIRITUAL meaning behind the letter that is being "cast" at us.

Whether or not the fire brings "death" to the flesh or life, depends on the condition of the heart, in regards to what is needed. In actuality, both happen, even if it comes as "death", because even His judgments are unto victory.

I have experienced this several times in one way I'll share right now, and that is when the scriptures were cast in my teeth in anger towards me, instead of them hitting flesh in me (because I had already overcame whatever it was) and "touching" me, the Lord quickened NEW LIFE in them to me. So what the enemy (carnally minded men with wrong motive of the heart in using the scriptures) meant for evil, God meant for good, as the "enemy" in them actually blessed me.

This principle is shown in the place where it talked about Paul being the ship, and they "sounded" and found the water depth was 20 fathoms, then as they drew closer to shore, it was 15 fathoms, and so on.

The water is as the Spirit when the FIERY DARTS (letter being used to condemn) of the wicked (wrong spirit) cast them at us, and it quenches them. The deeper the water, the more dying to self has taken place, and the less likely any of them will hit earth (flesh).

The word for sounding is closely related to the word for parable, and has the connotation of something thrown. This is why Jesus rebuked the teachers of Israel, the Pharisees, for not understanding the parables. Their "water" wasn't deep enough; He was "sounding" to find the depth, with the parables.

And again, this goes back to what I shared earlier about the waters below the firmament, being as a baptism conforming us unto the likeness of His death, which is what the baptism of John symbolized. Fiery darts can't hurt a dead man.  :laughing7:

And yes, both baptisms are necessary for ALL righteousness, as Jesus told John when he protested that it was he (only) that needed to be baptized by Jesus. My  :2c: Blessings....

So you believe in two baptisms? And if you reason that John' baptism is needed, why did Jesus, BAPTIZE NO ONE with this baptism? Joh 4:2  (though indeed Jesus himself was not baptizing, but his disciples,)
In fact John knew that there was only one baptism Luk 3:16  John answered, saying to all, `I indeed with water do baptise you, but he cometh who is mightier than I, of whom I am not worthy to loose the latchet of his sandals--he shall baptise you with the Holy Spirit and with fire;    Ehp. 4:5  one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

[pneuma]

"Micah,
You have to be aware that what's translated as breath does not always have the same underlaying Hebrew word."

Thank you WW, I am very aware of that, and thats why many have become unsure of many things. Gen. 2:7 the breath of life is just that, it was the very first, breath, wind, puff into the mist and dust of man.
The breath of life made man/adam/dust a living soul. Now that is a simple understanding, that breath of life got mankind going. It is the repition of breathing in and out, unconciouslly. Life/Living  H2416  chay  From H2421; alive; hence raw (flesh); fresh  H2421  châyâh A prim root (compare H2331, H2424); to live,

Gen 3:20  And the man calleth his wife's name Eve: for she hath been mother of all living.
Jesus said Joh 10:10  `The thief doth not come, except that he may steal, and kill, and destroy; I came that they may have life, and may have it abundantly.
I do not reason that this life abundantly is the the breath of life of Gen. 2:7

PS I did see the destroy deffintion of breath

Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Many believe that this is speaking of how natural man was created.
They believe that God took dust from the ground, breathed His spirit into the dust and that this union of dust and spirit is the make up of man who is then called a living soul.

But is that what God said?

Let's look closely at this scripture.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground.

It says plainly here that God formed MAN of the dust of the ground before He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and before MAN became a living soul.
Now we know that man is made up of spirit, soul and body. 1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This man of dust already had a spirit, soul and body, for is not man made up of spirit, soul and body?

And if this man of dust spoken of here did not already have a spirit, soul and body can it be rightly called man?

Cannot we understand by this that man was already created? And that God is doing something other then creating a natural man here?

God is not creating a natural man here as in the creation of the first man Adam, but He is shaping man to be in His image and likeness here.

We read in Genesis 1:26-27
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The word created here comes from the Hebrew word bara and formed from Genesis 2:7 is the Hebrew word yatsar.

So why does the scriptures use two different words if they are both dealing with the creation of man?

Because the man being formed in Genesis 2:7 finds his fulfillment in Gen.1:26-27 in being created in the image and likeness of God.

Yatsar comes with the weight of something being squeezed into shape as a potter molding the clay.
Genesis 2:7 is telling us the process of how we are being formed into the image and likeness of God, it is not telling us how natural man was created, but it is telling us how the spiritual man is being created.

Gen.2:7 is not speaking of the creation of natural man.
The old man is the man of dust, the flesh man or the man of sin, a living creature/beast man that lives unto itself, this is that MAN we are/were before God breathes the breath of life unto MAN.

[pneuma]

:cloud9: My  :2c:.....

Life = the Son
Life more abundantly = the Father also

Life more abundantly is the Seed that REMAINS......(death swallowed up of life, not UN-clothed, but clothed upon)

This is why it says you can't have the Father without the Son, nor the Son without the Father.

Amen, a double portion of LIFE, the LIFE of the Father and the LIFE of the Son.

Talk about being blessed beyound measure

[micah7:9]

:cloud9: My  :2c:.....

Life = the Son
Life more abundantly = the Father also

Life more abundantly is the Seed that REMAINS......(death swallowed up of life, not UN-clothed, but clothed upon)

This is why it says you can't have the Father without the Son, nor the Son without the Father.

Joh 10:30  I and the Father are one.' How come everything seems to have be broke down? "Life more abundantly is the Seed that REMAINS..." Where can I find more of this thought in the Book? Thanks and on that note I will attempt to stay out of this one as I should with many others I am sure.  But I will say He led you to a gold mine if you get into this, "Yatsar comes with the weight of something being squeezed into shape as a potter molding the clay."
Peace and Love Through Jesus

[thinktank]

Interesting pneuma. But I see it the other way round. That God first created Mankind as Spirit beings, as caretakers over the Earth in Genesis 1.

Then he decides to create the first human soul , a person called Adam, made of physical flesh and breath and places Adam in a denser dimension.

:2c:

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: Quickly, before I have to get some sleep.....@ pneuma, excellent posts  :HeartThrob:

That's the advantage of being unsaved. I require less sleep because my soul sleeps all day long  :winkgrin:

@ WW......here's how the two "positions" are reconciled.

Seems I need to start digging in this thread what those postions are...

If we are blameless because we have laid whatever needs to be consumed, down, then the fire only comes to burn up the chaff, so His anger is directed at it, and it is destroyed but we ourselves suffer no loss.

If we have overcome whatever it is, thru His Spirit in us, then when the fire comes, instead of the letter of it bringing condemnation to the flesh, it burns not at all, and brings healing (wholeness) to whatever it touches.

So it's like antibiotics. That also attacks the 'chaff'.

[pneuma]

Interesting pneuma. But I see it the other way round. That God first created Mankind as Spirit beings, as caretakers over the Earth in Genesis 1.

Then he decides to create the first human soul , a person called Adam, made of physical flesh and breath and places Adam in a denser dimension.

:2c:

The FIRST man is of the earth earthy.


The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

If the first man was spiritual as you suppose why do the scriptures state

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

[WhiteWings]

So you believe in two baptisms? And if you reason that John' baptism is needed, why did Jesus, BAPTIZE NO ONE with this baptism? Joh 4:2  (though indeed Jesus himself was not baptizing, but his disciples,)
In fact John knew that there was only one baptism Luk 3:16  John answered, saying to all, `I indeed with water do baptise you, but he cometh who is mightier than I, of whom I am not worthy to loose the latchet of his sandals--he shall baptise you with the Holy Spirit and with fire;    Ehp. 4:5  one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Jesus didn't rebuke John when he spoke about fire baptism. --> So it must be valid.
Jesus was there to recieve a water baptism. Jesus wasn't someone that wasted His time with useless stuff. He would have told John if it was useless. -> So it must be valid.

What I can accept is that AFTER His resurrection only fire baptism was needed.
OT covered sin -> Washed the outside
NT erases sin -> Washed teh inside

I can think of at least 2 reasons why Jesus was baptized in water.
a] He was died in the water grave representing a goat being killed.  -> Sure about this one.
b] When a (high) priest started his job (don't know the English word. Inauguration) he was washed in the Laver. -> A guess based on similarity.

:2c:

[thinktank]

Interesting pneuma. But I see it the other way round. That God first created Mankind as Spirit beings, as caretakers over the Earth in Genesis 1.

Then he decides to create the first human soul , a person called Adam, made of physical flesh and breath and places Adam in a denser dimension.

:2c:

The FIRST man is of the earth earthy.


The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

If the first man was spiritual as you suppose why do the scriptures state

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Looking at the context we see

45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven

So it is the same as what I wrote, doesn't contradict it, but supports it.

It does however contradict your post. You said

Pneuma Quote

Yatsar comes with the weight of something being squeezed into shape as a potter molding the clay.
Genesis 2:7 is telling us the process of how we are being formed into the image and likeness of God, it is not telling us how natural man was created, but it is telling us how the spiritual man is being created.

Gen.2:7 is not speaking of the creation of natural man.
The old man is the man of dust, the flesh man or the man of sin, a living creature/beast man that lives unto itself, this is that MAN we are/were before God breathes the breath of life unto MAN.

[micah7:9]

So you believe in two baptisms? And if you reason that John' baptism is needed, why did Jesus, BAPTIZE NO ONE with this baptism? Joh 4:2  (though indeed Jesus himself was not baptizing, but his disciples,)
In fact John knew that there was only one baptism Luk 3:16  John answered, saying to all, `I indeed with water do baptise you, but he cometh who is mightier than I, of whom I am not worthy to loose the latchet of his sandals--he shall baptise you with the Holy Spirit and with fire;    Ehp. 4:5  one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Jesus didn't rebuke John when he spoke about fire baptism. --> So it must be valid.
Jesus was there to recieve a water baptism. Jesus wasn't someone that wasted His time with useless stuff. He would have told John if it was useless. -> So it must be valid.

What I can accept is that AFTER His resurrection only fire baptism was needed.
OT covered sin -> Washed the outside
NT erases sin -> Washed teh inside

I can think of at least 2 reasons why Jesus was baptized in water.
a] He was died in the water grave representing a goat being killed.  -> Sure about this one.
b] When a (high) priest started his job (don't know the English word. Inauguration) he was washed in the Laver. -> A guess based on similarity.

:2c:

"Jesus wasn't someone that wasted His time with useless stuff. He would have told John if it was useless. -> So it must be valid." There was no wasted time, Jesus was the Lamb without spot or blemish, Jesus came to full the law. Jesus had to be baptized in water.
Certainly water baptism was valid, until it was no more valid, Eph. 4:5 teaches ONE baptism and that baptism is Holy Spirit/Ghost and Fire.
Water baptism was "John' baptism," if water baptism was supposed to be a part of His Plan then I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus would have given the example, but He did not Joh.4:2 and Paul understood this
1Co 1:17  For Christ did not send me to baptize, but--to proclaim good news; not in wisdom of discourse, that the cross of the Christ may not be made of none effect;

Strange for Paul to express his work in that fashion, is it not?

[pneuma]

Interesting pneuma. But I see it the other way round. That God first created Mankind as Spirit beings, as caretakers over the Earth in Genesis 1.

Then he decides to create the first human soul , a person called Adam, made of physical flesh and breath and places Adam in a denser dimension.

:2c:

The FIRST man is of the earth earthy.


The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

If the first man was spiritual as you suppose why do the scriptures state

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Looking at the context we see

45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven

So it is the same as what I wrote, doesn't contradict it, but supports it.

It does however contradict your post. You said

Pneuma Quote

Yatsar comes with the weight of something being squeezed into shape as a potter molding the clay.
Genesis 2:7 is telling us the process of how we are being formed into the image and likeness of God, it is not telling us how natural man was created, but it is telling us how the spiritual man is being created.

Gen.2:7 is not speaking of the creation of natural man.
The old man is the man of dust, the flesh man or the man of sin, a living creature/beast man that lives unto itself, this is that MAN we are/were before God breathes the breath of life unto MAN.

Gen.1:26-27 is a prophesy of Christ and us in Christ.

For how else can God make man in His image and likeness except through unity with Jesus Christ

[rosered]

I can see that    fiery LAw /  His breath / God is a consuming Fire

Is it more exact to say not God but His law is a consuming fire?

Hi Ww  , It says God is a consuming Fire     :HeartThrob:

RoseY, I wasn't trying to say the verse is wrong. It was more about what exactly it means.
Scott's answer seems just what I was looking for.

Rev 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and [there were] seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.  

  :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

I agree there are 7 spirits, but I don't see the connection with consuming fire.

Finally after nearly 2000 year the LoF riddle is solved. :msealed: Where's catch-42? :sigh:

[rosered]

I agree there are 7 spirits, but I don't see the connection with consuming fire.

Finally after nearly 2000 year the LoF riddle is solved. :msealed: Where's catch-42? :sigh:

:dontknow:

[thinktank]

Gen.1:26-27 is a prophesy of Christ and us in Christ.

For how else can God make man in His image and likeness except through unity with Jesus Christ

Pneuma

-------------

Prophecy?

That's a large assumption to make. We might not understand how it  is the first Mankind, were created in Gods image, but to deduce it to prophecy seems more like a strawman, explanation. Why is Genesis 1 a prophecy, but Genesis 2 is real?

Throughout the old testament we hear of the Spirit in man.

[pneuma]

Gen.1:26-27 is a prophesy of Christ and us in Christ.

For how else can God make man in His image and likeness except through unity with Jesus Christ

Pneuma

-------------

Prophecy?

That's a large assumption to make. We might not understand how it  is the first Mankind, were created in Gods image, but to deduce it to prophecy seems more like a strawman, explanation. Why is Genesis 1 a prophecy, but Genesis 2 is real?

Throughout the old testament we hear of the Spirit in man.

Not as large an assumption as you think TT.

Here is what Scriptures in 1Co.15 affirm about the FIRST man Adam.

He was a living soul

Natural

Earth earthy

We as of right now bear the image of the EARTHY ( this is the image of the FIRST man.)

Here is what those same scriptures affirm of Christ.

He is a quickening spirit

Spiritual

The Lord from Heaven

We shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

These scriptures show the contrast between the FIRST man (Adam) and the SECOND man (Christ).

Which of the two is in the image and likeness of God?

If the first man (Adam) is in the image and likeness of God then the second man (Christ) cannot be in God's image and likeness.
Is the image of God earth earthy? Is God's image natural?

We as of right now bear the image of the first man, but we shall also bear the image of the second man.

TT only one is the image and likeness of God, and that one is Christ, therefore the First man Adam cannot be the image and likeness of God.

Therefore Gen.1:26-27 must be a prophesy of Christ and us in Christ. There is only ONE WAY that man can be made into Gods image and likeness and that is through Jesus Christ.

As regarding Gen 2 through to Rev. it is the unfolding of how God is creating man in His image and likeness.

Man simply is not there yet, but we have the promise that we SHALL also bear the IMAGE of the HEAVENLY. What is a promise but a prophesy of what is to come.

[pneuma]

TT here is an small article I wrote on the many membered body of Christ that might be of some help in seeing Gen.1:26-27 as a prophesy of Christ and us in Christ.



The many membered body of Christ

Genesis 1:26-28
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

I have often spoken of these scriptures as being a prophesy of Christ and us in Christ.
And I would like to explore this a little further to show how it is speaking of the many membered body of Christ and the bride of this many membered body and how they are made one and replenish the earth and subdue it.


In every body there is a head, neck, shoulders, arms, torso, legs and feet etc.
These help make up the whole of who Christ is.

Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the head of the body, in whom the fullness of the Godhead dwells. There is nothing lacking of God in him, he is the express image of the Father.

He is the Christ and in him are many members, for the scriptures state expressly that Jesus is the head of the body, who is the church, and as head of the church He gave himself for the salvation of His body.

Colossians 1:17-18
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Ephesians 5:23
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.


Now as Jesus is the head of the body then there must needs be the rest of the body, neck, shoulders, arms, torso, legs and feet etc.
I believe we are the feet of the body of Christ and will go into this in more detail later.

Paul speak of this here


1 Corinthians 12:12-27
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

Christ is a many membered body not just the Head.
Jesus said in Hebrews 10:5 that God had prepared for Him a body.

Hebrews 10:5
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Hebrews go on to say in verses 10, 12 and 13

10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

Now I know literally speaking we understand this to be the physical body that Jesus had that he gave once for all. But I believe it speaks of much more then His physical body, and that it is speaking of us who are the body of Christ.

Jesus as the head of the body is waiting for the rest of the body to be prepared that we may be glorified together with Him. When we are glorified with Him ( us being the feet ) His enemies are made His footstool.

We see in Romans 8:16-25
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.


18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Notice that the whole of creation is still groaning in travail and waiting to be delivered from bondage. Why?
Why was it not delivered out of bondage upon His resurrection?

Because He waits for the manifestation of the rest of His body that the whole body might be glorified together with Him.


1 Corinthians
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many. 15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

Thus it is by one Spirit we are all baptized into one body, this being the mystical body of Christ. The head of the body, Jesus of Nazareth can not say to the feet I have no need of you. For without the feet the body of Christ would not be complete.


21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: 25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. 27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.


Now let's look at one particular member of the many membered body of Christ.
The feet, who I believe we represent.

We read in Genesis 3:15
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Now we all know that the seed in reference is to Christ.
But this is a promise not given just to the head of the body Jesus, but is in reference to the whole mystical body of Christ. For we read in

Romans 16:19-20
19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil. 20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

We are the feet of Christ that shall shortly bruise Satan under our feet.

Hebrews 2:5-11
5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

Why is it that we do not see all things yet put under the feet of Christ?
It is because the feet of the body of Christ have not yet been manifested to the world.

The whole world is still groaning in travail waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God who make up the rest of the body of Christ.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

What is it we see right now? We see Jesus.
Thank God we see Jesus the head of the body, for it is the head of the body that tasted death for every man, bring many sons ( the rest of the body ) unto glory. For it is the head that sanctifieth the rest of the body , and the body is one.

One of the greatest revelation of Jesus Christ being a many membered body can be seen when Saul was going to Damascus to persecute the body of Christ.

We read Acts 9:3-6
3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Can we not see by this revelation that Jesus is the head of the body of Christ.
Jesus Himself was already at the right hand of God, yet Jesus says to Saul: Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? Jesus said this because when one member of the body suffers the whole body suffers. Jesus was telling Paul that by persecuting His body he was persecuting Him.

What a revelation Saul received when he first came to know our Lord.
Surely Paul knew what he was saying when he said he was a son born out of due season.
Paul knew he was a member of the body of Christ.

Acts 19:14-15
14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so. 15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?

Why would this evil spirit recognize Jesus and Paul and not recognize the chief priest?

Because Jesus is the head of the body and Paul was a member of the body of Christ.

Jesus states in

John 14:12
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

What are these greater works that the body of Christ are to do?

Surely the greatest work is the salvation of man.

Yet Jesus says that the body of Christ will do greater works then He did.

How can this be possible?

I know too many this is going to sound strange but it is because Jesus as the head did not come to save all mankind but left that greater work for the many membered body of Christ. The head together with the body make up the fullness of Christ.

Please stay with me as scripture will bear out what I said above.

Jesus himself states in

Matthew 15:24
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Yet Gods people today say Jesus ( I am speaking of the head, the man Jesus of Nazareth ) came to save all mankind.

They are both right and wrong in stating this.

Jesus as the head of the body came to save the many membered body, so that the whole body together might save all mankind. For Jesus as the head was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Yet we see upon His resurrection He sent the members of His body to not only the lost sheep of Israel but also unto the Gentile that He might save all mankind, each in their own order.

Now I know some here may misunderstand me here thinking that I am saying Jesus Christ did not come to save all mankind, but that is not what I am saying at all.

Jesus as the head is the saviour of all mankind, for the body cannot do anything unless directed by the head.

Now this principal can be seen in that God is our saviour , yet sent forth His son Jesus Christ to enact His salvation for all men. Jesus as the head of the body of Christ does the same thing, He sends forth His many membered body into the world to bring not all men to salvation but to bring His bride all Israel unto salvation.

The promise to Abraham was two fold.

It was not just in thy seed shall all the families of the earth blessed, but it says IN THEE and in THY SEED shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

We all know that the seed spoken of is Christ.

I believe this is spoken of the whole body of Christ , head to foot so to speak.

But who is the IN THEE that is spoken of as part of this promise?

IN THEE is speaking of the bride of Christ, natural Israel.

Natural Israel is always spoken of as a woman, and that woman is the bride of Christ.

The many membered body of Christ will sit on twelve thrones in the regeneration judging the twelve tribes of Israel ( the bride )

Through this judgment , which is righteous judgment for the body only judges that which the head tells it to judge, the bride is made ready for her marriage to Christ.

Once this marriage takes place male and female become one body ( male and female created he them ) and by this union is ushered in the restitution of all things.

Where God will be all in all.

The order of the call.

Jesus the head calls His body.

The whole body together calls the bride.

The male and female become one body and together usher in the restitution of all things.


Do we not see here the fulfillment of the prophesy given in

Genesis 1:26-28
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.


It is only when Christ and the bride are made one that the earth will be REPLENISHED and SUBDUED.

[WhiteWings]

Which of the two is in the image and likeness of God?

If the first man (Adam) is in the image and likeness of God then the second man (Christ) cannot be in God's image and likeness.

Adam-1 was not created in His image; but in His shadow/outline. That's (almost) the opposite.
Click here

[pneuma]

Which of the two is in the image and likeness of God?

If the first man (Adam) is in the image and likeness of God then the second man (Christ) cannot be in God's image and likeness.

Adam-1 was not created in His image; but in His shadow/outline. That's (almost) the opposite.
Click here

We seem to agree on the first part WW that Adam was not created in the image and likeness of God.

However, I do not believe shadow to be a proper translation here as the Hebrew has another word for shadow and would have used that.

[WhiteWings]

Right now I'm preparing a post that ought to prove the location of the Garden of Eden. When doing some study something relevant to this thread occured to me.

^ACVRevelation 21
1 And I saw a new sky and a new earth, for the first sky and the first earth passed away, and the sea is no more.

Often that's used as proof that the new earth is transformed in an extreme way. There are no seas and oceans on the planet anymore. I think that's wrong because 'sea' is singular and 'the' points to s very specific sea. What if I rework the verse as follows:

^WWRevelation 21
1 And I saw a new sky and a new earth, for the first sky and the first earth passed away, and the Laver is no more.

As you will read in my other thread there are several prophesies that state the whole wasteland around Jerusalem will be fertile again. A massive earthquake will bring up springs. Including one on the place of where teh Holies were in the Temple.
A spring was called water of life. The whole land will become a pool filled with water that once was used to fill the Laver (sea) that the priests used to purify themselfs.
In Revelation Jesus tells us we may drink freely from the spring. I think that include washing in it. So my interpretation is:

And I saw a new sky and a new earth, for the first sky and the first earth passed away, and the Laver which was for purifying a handful of priests only is no more; now the water flows freely everywhere and all can purify themselfs in the new great Laver.

Your views?

[WhiteWings]

"The Laver was made from the freewill gift of bronze mirrors made by the women (Ex.38:8) and enabled the priests to see their reflection. "

On the doors of the Temple where grapes and leaves. People donated golden leaves and grapes.

1 Corinthians 13:12
12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.


What is the meaning to you of grapes and leaves?

Maybe the answer is in Gematria
Genesis 49:11 ....blood of grapes....  ===> Value 216
Genesis 49:12 His eyes will be darker than wine, his teeth whiter than milk.
--> Darker = sparkling red ==> Value 108

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool. –
--> They shall be white  ==> value 108

108+108=216

The idea behind this all is that blood cancels blood.
108+108=216 ==>Red+Red=White

[micah7:9]

Gen.1:26-27 is a prophesy of Christ and us in Christ.

For how else can God make man in His image and likeness except through unity with Jesus Christ

Pneuma

-------------

Prophecy?

That's a large assumption to make. We might not understand how it  is the first Mankind, were created in Gods image, but to deduce it to prophecy seems more like a strawman, explanation. Why is Genesis 1 a prophecy, but Genesis 2 is real?

Throughout the old testament we hear of the Spirit in man.

Not as large an assumption as you think TT.

Here is what Scriptures in 1Co.15 affirm about the FIRST man Adam.

He was a living soul

Natural

Earth earthy

We as of right now bear the image of the EARTHY ( this is the image of the FIRST man.)

Here is what those same scriptures affirm of Christ.

He is a quickening spirit

Spiritual

The Lord from Heaven

We shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

These scriptures show the contrast between the FIRST man (Adam) and the SECOND man (Christ).

Which of the two is in the image and likeness of God?

If the first man (Adam) is in the image and likeness of God then the second man (Christ) cannot be in God's image and likeness.
Is the image of God earth earthy? Is God's image natural?

We as of right now bear the image of the first man, but we shall also bear the image of the second man.

TT only one is the image and likeness of God, and that one is Christ, therefore the First man Adam cannot be the image and likeness of God.

Therefore Gen.1:26-27 must be a prophesy of Christ and us in Christ. There is only ONE WAY that man can be made into Gods image and likeness and that is through Jesus Christ.

As regarding Gen 2 through to Rev. it is the unfolding of how God is creating man in His image and likeness.

Man simply is not there yet, but we have the promise that we SHALL also bear the IMAGE of the HEAVENLY. What is a promise but a prophesy of what is to come.

I say Praise God!  I believe that you did a great job of speaking a truth :grin: