Below a summary of THIS (http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/books/creations/Chapter3.cfm) article.
I would like to suggest reading the full article because it's very hard to summarize without leaving important things out.
Summary of the summary :winkgrin:
LoF=Laver=Molten sea of glass = where the Temple priests purified/washed themselfs daily.
The water in the Laver symbolized highly refined molten gold that is a clear as crystal.
God was sitting at that laver refining the gold.
In our previous chapter, we established that the Fire of God describes both His divine nature and law (word), which expresses it. We saw from Isaiah 26:9 that the purpose of God's judgments (i.e., penalties for sin) was to bring the inhabitants of the world to a place where they would learn righteousness. We saw how the Fire of God purifies us, for God sits as a Refiner of gold and silver (Malachi 3:2 and 3).
Rev 20:
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
14 And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
At first glance, this seems to imply that everyone receives the same judgment. But if this were so, then how could they be judged according to their deeds? The lake of fire is a general picture of the process of judgment-NOT a specific judgment in and of itself. The lake of fire is the fiery law itself, and the law consists of many different types of judgment, which fit the specific crime committed.
....
This is made apparent by Daniel's description of this same White Throne Judgment in Daniel 7:9 and 10.
9 I kept looking until thrones were set up, and the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow, and the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, its wheels were a burning fire. 10 A river of fire was flowing and coming out from before Him; thousands upon thousands were attending Him, and myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; the court sat, and the books were opened.
What John called "the lake of fire" in the book of Revelation, Daniel describes as "a river of fire." God's Throne itself is pictured as a fire, which then flows like a river out upon the people standing before Him.
.....
The Laver, or the Molten Sea
One must always keep in mind that the book of Revelation was written by a Hebrew. He did not interpret the Old Testament from a Greek or Egyptian perspective. His focus was upon heavenly things, particularly the True Temple in heaven. The religious symbolism of the earthly temple referred only to the heavenly reality and must be viewed in that light. John views all of history as a fulfillment of prophecy displayed in the ceremonies and vessels of the temple.
In view of our present topic, we must study the laver, the place of cleansing and purification for the priests as they washed themselves (baptism), the vessels, and the sacrifices. This "water baptism" set up in the days of Moses, was itself only an earthly manifestation of the heavenly baptism, the baptism of fire.
And so, John points to the temple laver and calls it the lake of fire. In essence, as we shall see, the picture is meant to portray the Refiner's Fire, complete with the cauldron of alloyed mineral and its impurities, as the Refiner begins His work.
....
Both the Tabernacle of Moses and the Temple of Solomon used water in their lavers, rather than molten gold. Yet the water was meant to portray molten gold. Gold is the divine nature, and so the laver itself would portray God's refining process. In our fleshly state, we could not survive a baptism of fiery gold, and so water baptism became the substitute and type of the true baptism of fire.
In the days of Solomon's Temple, the laver was called "the molten sea" (1 Kings 7:23). When gold has been refined to its absolutely pure state, molten gold is as clear as crystal. If Solomon would have filled the Temple's laver with pure gold and melted it, it would have looked like "a sea of glass like crystal" (Rev. 4:6). In Revelation 15:2 John described it as "a sea of glass mixed with fire."
What John saw in heaven was the laver, the lake of fire, as pictured in the Tabernacle and the Temple of Solomon. The laver was used to wash (baptize) in order to be cleansed, or purified ceremonially.
There are some who argue that the fire must be a literal place of burning and torture, because it is often associated with "brimstone."
Does the "brimstone" prove that this is a literal fire that tortures men? Actually, the very opposite is true.
Sulphur, or theion, was considered to be sacred to the ancient Greeks. It was used to consecrate for divine service, to PURIFY, and to cleanse. They used it in religious rites to purify their temples. They would even rub it on their bodies to signify consecration to God. In its verb form the word theou means "to hallow, make divine, or to dedicate to God."
.....
This "fire and sulphur," taken symbolically by the more educated or by the higher degrees of religion, was only literalized by the uneducated. The priests generally allowed them to be deceived, of course, because they also believed that fear of fire was a good religious motivator.
The early Christian Church of the first few centuries after Christ knew this. This is shown by their writings. Unfortunately, some also believed in "the doctrine of Reserve." That is, they would withhold some teachings from the novices until they were mature Christians. They did this specifically with the teaching on the lake of fire, allowing novices to take their words literally, rather than spiritually, so that they would be better motivated to turn to Christ.
Very good! :thumbsup:
Oh my goodness. Cha-ching! :thumbsup:
[I knew that lol] I had forgotten it.
THE BRONZE LAVER
The Laver was a bronze basin stood on a base about midway between the altar and the tabernacle (Ex.40:30). It was probably round and of considerable size although its exact shape and size are not stated in scripture. However we may surmise that the "stand" was separate since it is always mentioned separately (Ex 30:17).
Only the priests had access to the Laver, whereas the bronze altar was accessible to all. There was cleansing by blood the thought of justification and there was cleansing by water the thought of sanctification. The priests were obliged to wash their hands and their feet before entering God's presence, to disobey would mean death (Ex.30:19-21). There was no floor in the court or the tabernacle therefore the priests feet would be defiled by the constant contact with the earth and the hands by the work at the altar and other work. Therefore they had to wash before any ministry at the altar, to make them clean before communion with God and before service to man.
At their consecration the priests were washed all over at the Laver before being clothed with priestly garments and anointed (Lev.29:4-7). They did not wash themselves at their consecration, but were washed by someone else (Lev.8:6). This act was never repeated (perhaps a symbol of baptism Heb. 10:22) and afterwards the priests had to wash their own hands and feet at the Laver which would be a daily exercise. The Laver was made from the freewill gift of bronze mirrors made by the women (Ex.38:8) and enabled the priests to see their reflection. The thought of God's word being a Laver is seen in the New Testament, when Paul in Ephesians 5:26 writes "that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word"(NASB). The Greek word used there translated as washing is "loutron" which means Laver and is the Greek word used in the Septuagint for the Laver in the court of the tabernacle. If in the passage we were to put the word Laver it would read "that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the Laver of water, with the word". This gives the real insight of the verse, a standing in the place of sanctification that comes through the word of God. The cleansing power of God's word is also see in Psalm 119:9, John 15:3, 1 Peter 1;;22. When we come to the Word of God, the Bible, so it is to us a mirror for our soul that will cleanse us if we are willing to apply its purifying water to our lives.
The Laver water was required also for the washing of the inward parts of the sacrifices (Lev.1:9,13) and so it is that our inner thoughts and motives need divine cleansing.
Thoughts for simple sermons :-
1/ The need to allow ourselves to stand in that place where the word of God can cleanse and sanctify us daily.
2/ We see the Laver in heaven in Revelation 15:2 with the saints standing on or beside it signifying the place or state of absolute holiness with no more defilement to be cleansed.
3/ The need to come to that place by the Laver for cleansing before ministry before God or to other people on behalf of God
These are the articles of furniture found in the court, they speak of an atoning sacrifice and of a cleansing as a preparation to enter into God's presence. The same is true today to be able to come into God's presence, to have a relationship with God we must identify ourselves with the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and be cleansed of the sin that makes the relationship with a holy God impossible. But the maintaining of that cleanness that is known as righteousness is the responsibility of every believer by the daily exercise of applying Gods word in everyday living, to keep our thoughts and motives pure.
Now as we enter the tabernacle proper the first compartment we enter known as the holy place contains the following.
http://www.watton.org/studies&stories/tab/bronzelaver.shtml
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The Laver was made from the freewill gift of bronze mirrors made by the women (Ex.38:8) and enabled the priests to see their reflection. "
1 Corinthians 13:12
12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
What are we seeing when we look in a mirror?
"The thought of God's word being a Laver is seen in the New Testament, when Paul in Ephesians 5:26 writes "that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word"(NASB). The Greek word used there translated as washing is "loutron" which means Laver and is the Greek word used in the Septuagint for the Laver in the court of the tabernacle. If in the passage we were to put the word Laver it would read "that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the Laver of water, with the word". This gives the real insight of the verse, a standing in the place of sanctification that comes through the word of God."
2 Cor 3
And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
YLTRev 4
6 and before the throne is a sea of glass like to crystal, and in the midst of the throne, and round the throne, are four living creatures, full of eyes before and behind;
God sits in the Holy of Holies (HoH) of as a refiner/fullar before the Laver.
There were complex waterworks that used water from Gideon spring (Keldron valley).
That spring was the source of a "atmospheric spring" that collected dew (signifies life)
-> Dew is always free of impurities
That dew was collected in the Holy of Holies and from there flowed into the laver.
In the HoH is His throne. So the river flows out of His throne.
http://www.askelm.com/temple/t011113.htm
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/42stargate/04images/Solomon/molten_sea_1.jpg)
Laver/Molten Sea in Solomon's Temple
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/42stargate/04images/Solomon/Solomons_Temple_med.jpg)
Measuring from the drawing the Laver is 45 feet = 30 cubits = 13.72 meter in diameter
Quote from: Molly on March 29, 2011, 03:02:26 PM
"The Laver was made from the freewill gift of bronze mirrors made by the women (Ex.38:8) and enabled the priests to see their reflection. "
On the doors of the Temple where grapes and leaves. People donated golden leaves and grapes.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 02, 2011, 04:29:41 PM
Quote from: Molly on March 29, 2011, 03:02:26 PM
"The Laver was made from the freewill gift of bronze mirrors made by the women (Ex.38:8) and enabled the priests to see their reflection. "
On the doors of the Temple where grapes and leaves. People donated golden leaves and grapes.
1 Corinthians 13:12
12For now we see
in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
What is the meaning to you of grapes and leaves?
Quote from: WWIn the HoH is His throne. So the river flows out of His throne.
The THRONE is HIS mind IN US, the living water which flows through us IS LIFE, Christ the revealer of TRUTH WITHIN, OUR HOPE of GLORY
Quote from: MOLLY2 Cor 3
And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
. :2c: The GLORY OF GOD is the HIDDEN truth within us[ CHRIST, the Rising of the MORNING STAR in our HEARTS]HIS GLORY is HID in the HEARTS of ALL men ,until a twinkling[ LIGHT= revl;ation] of an EYE =[ UNderstanding]- :icon_flower:
Quote from: Molly on May 02, 2011, 04:38:41 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 02, 2011, 04:29:41 PM
Quote from: Molly on March 29, 2011, 03:02:26 PM
"The Laver was made from the freewill gift of bronze mirrors made by the women (Ex.38:8) and enabled the priests to see their reflection. "
On the doors of the Temple where grapes and leaves. People donated golden leaves and grapes.
1 Corinthians 13:12
12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
What is the meaning to you of grapes and leaves?
Don't know. Certainly it has a meaning...
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 02, 2011, 04:51:19 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 02, 2011, 04:38:41 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 02, 2011, 04:29:41 PM
Quote from: Molly on March 29, 2011, 03:02:26 PM
"The Laver was made from the freewill gift of bronze mirrors made by the women (Ex.38:8) and enabled the priests to see their reflection. "
On the doors of the Temple where grapes and leaves. People donated golden leaves and grapes.
1 Corinthians 13:12
12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
What is the meaning to you of grapes and leaves?
Don't know. Certainly it has a meaning...
Who Is the DOOR of the Tabernacle\TEMPLE :icon_flower:
Ex 26:36-37 "You shall make a screen for the door of the tabernacle,
woven of blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and
fine woven linen, made by a weaver. And you shall make for the screen
five pillars of acacia wood, and overlay them with gold; their hooks shall be of gold, and you shall cast five sockets of bronze for them."
John 10:7-9 Then Jesus said to them again, "Most assuredly, I say to you,
I am the door of the sheep. All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."
2 Pet 1:11 for
so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Jn 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father
except through Me.
Grapes make wine= HIS blood we DRINK--- Leaves are FOR HEALING- Christ the Great Physician- ?? :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on May 02, 2011, 04:47:09 PM
Quote from: WWIn the HoH is His throne. So the river flows out of His throne.
The THRONE is HIS mind IN US, the living water which flows through us IS LIFE, Christ the revealer of TRUTH WITHIN, OUR HOPE of GLORY
Quote from: MOLLY2 Cor 3
And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
. :2c: The GLORY OF GOD is the HIDDEN truth within us[ CHRIST, the Rising of the MORNING STAR in our HEARTS]HIS GLORY is HID in the HEARTS of ALL men ,until a twinkling[ LIGHT= revl;ation] of an EYE =[ UNderstanding]- :icon_flower:
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."In a moment"G823
ἄτομος
atomosat'-om-os
From G1 (as a negative particle) and the base of G5114;
uncut, that is, (by implication)
indivisible (an "atom" of time): - moment.
We shall be changed at the level of the atom, at the smallest indivisible element uncut by human hands.
34Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. --Dan 2
[and we]
"shall be changed"G236
ἀλλάσσω
allassō
al-las'-so
From G243;
to make different: - change.
A change so profound, you will see it in a mirror, face to face. :icon_flower:
QuoteA change so profound, you will see it in a mirror, face to face.
AS YOU ARE in HIM---ALL what is\was KNOWN was lost when MAN become seperated from HIM---we are again discovering WHO we are - tis why you get those ""WOW" Moments ie the unveiling of what we already KNEW---- that carnal mind exists still in us ALL hence we know only IN part---
Quote from: Taffy on May 02, 2011, 05:35:07 PM
QuoteA change so profound, you will see it in a mirror, face to face.
AS YOU ARE in HIM---ALL what is\was KNOWN was lost when MAN become seperated from HIM---we are again discovering WHO we are - tis why you get those ""WOW" Moments ie the unveiling of what we already KNEW---- that carnal mind exists still in us ALL hence we know only IN part---
We have been veiled, hidden, for our own protection.
1 Corinthians 2:8
Which none of the princes[ARCHON] of this world[AION] knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Quote from: Molly on May 02, 2011, 05:38:54 PM
Quote from: Taffy on May 02, 2011, 05:35:07 PM
QuoteA change so profound, you will see it in a mirror, face to face.
AS YOU ARE in HIM---ALL what is\was KNOWN was lost when MAN become seperated from HIM---we are again discovering WHO we are - tis why you get those ""WOW" Moments ie the unveiling of what we already KNEW---- that carnal mind exists still in us ALL hence we know only IN part---
We have been veiled, hidden, for our own protection.
1 Corinthians 2:8
Which none of the princes[ARCHON] of this world[AION] knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
our own protection? explain that one Molly-- im not sure what you saying
:2c: pauls stating - why Princes= MAN= carnal mind cant hear - is not just speaking of the Jews but ALL MEN - as we were all binded\DEAF at BIRTH to HIM due to EVE, HAD we had KNOWN HIM as HE WAS-- we surely wouldnt have Crucified HIM
1Cr 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. [ CHRIST is the POWER and WISDOM of GOD ]
1Cr 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1Cr 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory: HIM IS US
1Cr 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1Cr 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Cr 2:10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
Quote from: Taffy on May 02, 2011, 05:43:00 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 02, 2011, 05:38:54 PM
Quote from: Taffy on May 02, 2011, 05:35:07 PM
QuoteA change so profound, you will see it in a mirror, face to face.
AS YOU ARE in HIM---ALL what is\was KNOWN was lost when MAN become seperated from HIM---we are again discovering WHO we are - tis why you get those ""WOW" Moments ie the unveiling of what we already KNEW---- that carnal mind exists still in us ALL hence we know only IN part---
We have been veiled, hidden, for our own protection.
1 Corinthians 2:8
Which none of the princes[ARCHON] of this world[AION] knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
our own protection? explain that one Molly-- im not sure what you saying
God had to send Adam out of the garden, but, when he did, he hid him in the skins of beasts--so that no one [specifically the archon] would know who he was. Neither did they know who Christ was. This was a mystery hidden from the ages and revealed now to his saints.
Colossians 3:3
For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
4When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
Quote from: Taffywhy Princes= MAN= carnal mind cant hear
This is where you and I disagree. I do not believe archon/princes=man. Neither in this context nor in the book of Daniel.
I believe they are supernatural authorities.
"princes" [of this age]
G758
ἄρχων
archōnar'-khone
Present participle of G757;
a first (in rank or power): -
chief (ruler), magistrate, prince, ruler.
If you are going to be a prince of this age, you can't fade away in a man's paltry lifetime.
Quote from: Molly on May 02, 2011, 06:00:27 PM
Quote from: Taffywhy Princes= MAN= carnal mind cant hear
This is where you and I disagree. I do not believe archon/princes=man. Neither in this context nor in the book of Daniel.
I believe they are supernatural authorities.
"princes" [of this age]
G758
ἄρχων
archōn
ar'-khone
Present participle of G757; a first (in rank or power): - chief (ruler), magistrate, prince, ruler.
If you are going to be a prince of this age, you can't fade away in a man's paltry lifetime.
Each man is a Prince = RULER who like the son of perdition\False prophet SITS on the THRONE= OF HIS CARNAL MIND-- the MIND the LORD comeS to to REIGN within [ ie the kingdom within ] every man is a PRINCE in the AGE he was born----
Psa 82:7 But 403 ye shall die 4191 like men 120, and fall 5307 like one 259 of the princes 8269
men= adam will fall and die like PRINCES as they are PRINCES-- the PRINCES of this WORLD being ALL at one time until the son of perdition is revealed-- believe as you will Molly--Ill stop here- Tis going off Topic-- Be Blessed :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Taffy on May 02, 2011, 05:20:17 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 02, 2011, 04:51:19 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 02, 2011, 04:38:41 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 02, 2011, 04:29:41 PM
Quote from: Molly on March 29, 2011, 03:02:26 PM
"The Laver was made from the freewill gift of bronze mirrors made by the women (Ex.38:8) and enabled the priests to see their reflection. "
On the doors of the Temple where grapes and leaves. People donated golden leaves and grapes.
1 Corinthians 13:12
12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
What is the meaning to you of grapes and leaves?
Don't know. Certainly it has a meaning...
Who Is the DOOR of the Tabernacle\TEMPLE :icon_flower:
Ex 26:36-37 "You shall make a screen for the door of the tabernacle, woven of blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and fine woven linen, made by a weaver. And you shall make for the screen five pillars of acacia wood, and overlay them with gold; their hooks shall be of gold, and you shall cast five sockets of bronze for them."
John 10:7-9 Then Jesus said to them again, "Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."
2 Pet 1:11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Jn 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Grapes make wine= HIS blood we DRINK--- Leaves are FOR HEALING- Christ the Great Physician- ?? :icon_flower:
You can't use NT verses for the understanding of OT Jews.
Quote from: Taffy on May 02, 2011, 06:11:54 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 02, 2011, 06:00:27 PM
Quote from: Taffywhy Princes= MAN= carnal mind cant hear
This is where you and I disagree. I do not believe archon/princes=man. Neither in this context nor in the book of Daniel.
I believe they are supernatural authorities.
"princes" [of this age]
G758
ἄρχων
archōn
ar'-khone
Present participle of G757; a first (in rank or power): - chief (ruler), magistrate, prince, ruler.
If you are going to be a prince of this age, you can't fade away in a man's paltry lifetime.
Each man is a Prince = RULER who like the son of perdition\False prophet SITS on the THRONE= OF HIS CARNAL MIND-- the MIND the LORD comeS to to REIGN within [ ie the kingdom within ] every man is a PRINCE in the AGE he was born----
Psa 82:7 But 403 ye shall die 4191 like men 120, and fall 5307 like one 259 of the princes 8269
men= adam will fall and die like PRINCES as they are PRINCES-- the PRINCES of this WORLD being ALL at one time until the son of perdition is revealed-- believe as you will Molly--Ill stop here- Tis going off Topic-- Be Blessed :HeartThrob:
Like I said, we disagree.
And it's the [wicked] princes/gods who will die like men. It means nothing to condemn men to die since they are going to die anyway. But to an immortal being, that's a threat.
Psa 82:1 A PsalmH4210 of Asaph.H623 GodH430 standethH5324 in the congregationH5712 of
the mighty;H410 he judgethH8199 amongH7130
the gods.H430
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 02, 2011, 06:18:36 PM
Quote from: Taffy on May 02, 2011, 05:20:17 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 02, 2011, 04:51:19 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 02, 2011, 04:38:41 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 02, 2011, 04:29:41 PM
Quote from: Molly on March 29, 2011, 03:02:26 PM
"The Laver was made from the freewill gift of bronze mirrors made by the women (Ex.38:8) and enabled the priests to see their reflection. "
On the doors of the Temple where grapes and leaves. People donated golden leaves and grapes.
1 Corinthians 13:12
12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
What is the meaning to you of grapes and leaves?
Don't know. Certainly it has a meaning...
Who Is the DOOR of the Tabernacle\TEMPLE :icon_flower:
Ex 26:36-37 "You shall make a screen for the door of the tabernacle, woven of blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and fine woven linen, made by a weaver. And you shall make for the screen five pillars of acacia wood, and overlay them with gold; their hooks shall be of gold, and you shall cast five sockets of bronze for them."
John 10:7-9 Then Jesus said to them again, "Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."
2 Pet 1:11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Jn 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Grapes make wine= HIS blood we DRINK--- Leaves are FOR HEALING- Christ the Great Physician- ?? :icon_flower:
You can't use NT verses for the understanding of OT Jews.
Not sure the intent of your post Tony- so First Id agree the JEWS wouldnt see the sprirtual only the shadow= natural ?
Quote from: Taffy on May 02, 2011, 06:28:15 PM
yes indeed Moly
Mar 7:14 And when he had called all the people [unto him], he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one [of you], and understand:
Mar 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Meaning what? That we have died with Christ and the tomb [of our heart] covered with a stone?
But, he will give us a heart of flesh at the appointed time.
Quote from: Molly on May 02, 2011, 06:32:16 PM
Quote from: Taffy on May 02, 2011, 06:28:15 PM
yes indeed Moly
Mar 7:14 And when he had called all the people [unto him], he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one [of you], and understand:
Mar 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Meaning what? That we have died with Christ and the tomb [of our heart] covered with a stone?
But, he will give us a heart of flesh at the appointed time.
I deleted that last post Molly prior to your answer AS did say Id stop-- and IM STOPPING-- again Be free to believe what you will :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Taffy on May 02, 2011, 06:21:55 PMNot sure the intent of your post Tony- so First Id agree the JEWS wouldnt see the sprirtual only the shadow= natural ?
The Jews based all their things on OT teachings. They didn't have the NT. So the reason they use grapes instead of potatoes must predate Jesus.
Grapes are one of the 7 "fruits" of the promised land. The spies brought grapes with them. There is a festival celebrating the fruits.
:dontknow:
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 02, 2011, 06:40:21 PM
Quote from: Taffy on May 02, 2011, 06:21:55 PMNot sure the intent of your post Tony- so First Id agree the JEWS wouldnt see the sprirtual only the shadow= natural ?
The Jews based all their things on OT teachings. They didn't have the NT. So the reason they use grapes instead of potatoes must predate Jesus.
Grapes are one of the 7 "fruits" of the promised land. The spies brought grapes with them. There is a festival celebrating the fruits.
:dontknow:
A land of wheat, and barley, and vines, and fig trees, and pomegranates; a land of oil olive, and honey;
7 the number of Completess[ FULLNESS] = HE is the PROMISED land in WHOM we DWELL- each of thse Harvests\fruits are again symbols of HIM and us partaking in HIM--- :icon_flower:
HAVING been commanded to keep the NATURAL as they were types\shadows and Patterns of the reality--- such fruits are
revealed in the NEW T :icon_flower: maybe others can cast more light on this for you Tony-- :icon_flower:
But none of the above explains teh spiritual meaning of grapes and/or why they where used in the Temple.
Grapes are the last harvest--those that remain outside the door?
Grapes for mine are symbolic for BLOOD which is LIFE--- COME PASS- OVER in the time of Moses , they were to STRIKE BLOOD on POSTS AND LINTEL above the door[ again others may share MORE,] but maybe that has something to do with the GRAPES above the DOORS of Herods Temple too :icon_flower:
Gen 49:11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes
Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take [it] out from the sheep, or from the goats:
Exd 12:6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
Exd 12:7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike [it] on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.
Quote from: Molly on May 02, 2011, 07:29:17 PM
Grapes are the last harvest--those that remain outside the door?
BARLEY , WHEAT then Grapes :icon_flower: sems Paul was before his days a partaker in\of the Barley havest
Quote from: Taffy on May 02, 2011, 07:32:42 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 02, 2011, 07:29:17 PM
Grapes are the last harvest--those that remain outside the door?
BARLEY , WHEAT then Grapes :icon_flower: sems Paul was before his days a partaker in\of the Barley havest
Yes. I think we are, too. Barley, that is.
Barley is the poor man's harvest.
Matthew 5:3
Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Quote from: Molly on May 02, 2011, 07:29:17 PM
Grapes are the last harvest--those that remain outside the door?
The last harvest I agree with.
For me the Temple is about first --> Barley
The priests had pomegrates (fruitfulness) on their garment.
Grapes
possibly stands for abundance.
ענב
‛ênâb
BDB Definition:
1) grape(s)
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from an unused root probably meaning to bear fruit
The priests had pomegrates (fruitfulness) on their garment.
they hung on the HEM with gold bells which sounded as they walked- as DID the High priest who enteerd the Holy of Holies - IF THOSE BELLS TINKLED they outside KNEW he was still alive-- the woman[ EVE] who touched the HEM of the lords Garment was healed of HER WOMB , Pomegrantes are FULL of seed, said to contain all the number of LAWS in the OT---keep digging Tony :icon_flower:
Quotesaid to contain all the numberof LAWS in the OT
That myth has been debunked.
Quotekeep digging Tony
:grave:
So far I have: Bear fruit abundantly
---> Abundant guesswork.
one did say IT IS SAID- :winkgrin:
stephen Jones has writings on the three harvests-- heres one on the Barley :icon_flower:
http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/spiritual/home_study/passover.htm
PS just noticed that icon :laughing7: --- no! No! Ya digging ya way UP :thumbsup:
http://www.biblemeanings.info/Bible/Genesis/ch9,v21-m.htm
Grapes = charity
He washed His garment in wine, and His vesture in the blood of grapes (Gen. 49:11);
for this is my blood of the new covenant, that for many is being poured out--to remission of sins;
:dontknow: blood -> blood of the grapes -> blood of charity (abundance) :dontknow:
Quote from: Taffy on May 02, 2011, 08:23:43 PM
one did say IT IS SAID- :winkgrin:
stephen Jones has writings on the three harvests-- heres one on the Barley :icon_flower:
http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/spiritual/home_study/passover.htm
"Each crop represents a different class of people. The barley, which ripens first, represents
the overcomers of the first resurrection; the wheat, which ripens at Pentecost, represents the rest of the believers in general; and the grapes, which are trodden down at the end of the growing season, represent the unbelievers who are judged according to their works." The Barley Overcomers, by Stephen Jones, pg 10.
wow. This is beautiful.
Thus, Gideon and his army represent the barley company, the overcomers who will inherit the promise of God at the end of this present age. The manner in which Gideon's army defeated the enemy tells us how the overcomers of today will receive the promise.
Each of the men in Gideon's army was given a trumpet and a torch inside an earthen jar, or pitcher. With little oxygen in the jar, the torches could only glow. At the signal, they blew their trumpets and broke the jars, holding up the torches in the air, causing them to burst into flames.
The trumpet signifies the first resurrection of the dead at the Feast of Trumpets. The torches within the pitchers signify the presence of God in our bodies, which are the earthen vessels. At the appointed time, after blowing the trumpet for the first resurrection, these bodies of death will be broken, and the glory of God will burst into view, even as Jesus was transfigured before His disciples.
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/42stargate/04images/Solomon/molten_sea_1.jpg)
EBR1 Kings 7
25 standing upon twelve oxen, three looking northward, and three looking westward, and three looking southward, and three looking eastward, the sea, being upon them above,––all their hinder parts, being, inward.
EBRRevelation 4
6 and, before the throne, [is] as a glassy sea, like unto crystal. And, in the midst of the throne, and around the throne, [are] four living creatures full of eyes, before and behind;
wow this is all really good stuff love the Gold laver / Truth in the purest form /clear as Crystal setting us Free from the corruptible body of death /sin in our flesh , the Bronze laver being Gods judgments
I do see what Graham is saying
men as gods .. that the curse of Adam , God gave dominion /rule to Adam over the earth only .. hummm Jesus Christ over all = below , earth and above :)
Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.
Isa 41:23 Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye [are] gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold [it] together.
Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be brokenSay ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
note whom blasphemed there the gods men did this thing
men giving glory to men and NOT GOD because God was in Jesus Christ doing the works and speaking to them ! :HeartThrob: read the rest of Ch 10 John on them works that is the Holy Spirit the Father and the Son the 3 fold cord that cannot be Broken .. this is Emanuel God with us
just thinking ..Ecc 4:12 And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken
:cloud9: Excellent post, WW..... :thumbsup: it never occured to me before this that when I saw Him as the whirlwind, I described it as looking like living water with GLASS or diamonds mixed in it, for lack of words. The part that made it look "alive" was FIERY life, it sparkled almost. Interesting to me that in that form, it's so similar to the description of the lake of fire. I knew the river that comes from the throne is a river of fire. The new heaven (mind of Christ) is created with this fire. Blessings....
And the closer we get to the fire, the HOTTER it gets!
I'm trying to connect the dots.....
- Dan 7:10 tells us about a river/stream of fire coming from God's throne -> A river coming from the holies of holies fills the laver (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/lake_fire_molten_sea_glass_laver_9507.msg119456.html#msg119456)
- Revelation speaks about a Lake of Fire. Many rivers end in a lake. See above.
- LoF AND brimstone. Brimstone is (almost) a synonym for pure/God. So it's not about destruction.
- A better translation is Lake of THE/HIS fire (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/word_studies/lake_the_fire_7579.msg87678.html#msg87678) --> Lake of the/His law?
- Lake has a meaning of safety not of despair and destruction (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/word_studies/lof_lets_take_swim_6864.msg76392.html#msg76392)
- Priests regularly purified themselves in LoF (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/lake_fire_molten_sea_glass_laver_9507.msg119448.html#msg119448)
- People in LoF are being purified and tested. (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/discussions_universal_salvation/baptized_fire._4786.msg49822.html#msg49822)
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 02, 2011, 04:47:45 PM
I'm trying to connect the dots.....
- Can't find the verse but Daniel or Isaiah wrote about a river of fire. -> A river coming from the holies of holies fills the laver (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/lake_fire_molten_sea_glass_laver_9507.msg119456.html#msg119456)
- Revelation speaks about a Lake of Fire. Many rivers end in a lake. See above.
- LoF AND brimstone. Brimstone is (almost) a synonym for pure/God. So it's not about destruction.
- A better translation is Lake of THE/HIS fire (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/word_studies/lake_the_fire_7579.msg87678.html#msg87678) --> Lake of the/His law?
- Lake has a meaning of safety not of despair and destruction (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/word_studies/lof_lets_take_swim_6864.msg76392.html#msg76392)
- Priests regularly purified themselves in LoF (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/lake_fire_molten_sea_glass_laver_9507.msg119448.html#msg119448)
- People in LoF are being purified and tested. (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/discussions_universal_salvation/baptized_fire._4786.msg49822.html#msg49822)
You have done an awesome study Bro T aka WW ... LOVE IT :HeartThrob:
Here ya go its the fiery stream from God Isa 30:33 For Tophet [is] ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made [it] deep [and] large: the pile thereof [is] fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD,
like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it. Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
I saw one night in a dream vision , had so very few of them , but the whole bottom was on fire with such LIGHT and ILLUMINATION but the TOP saw clar as crystal and seen the Lord
well it scared me to death I woke up out of sleep that night in awe and great fear because it seemed soooooo real to me , i cannot expline it , nor tell many of it
but you sure remineded of that years ago vision thing that was real to me as anything i do awake and moving around :HeartThrob:GOD is so awesome !
Thanks RoseY. I added your verse to my post :thumbsup:
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 02, 2011, 07:18:16 PM
Thanks RoseY. I added your verse to my post :thumbsup:
verses :icon_flower: i am a poor writer LOL , too jumbled up , i hurry to fast ... just get to excited lol :icon_flower:
one in Isaiah and in Daniel hopefully :gangel:
Isa 30:33 For Tophet [is] ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made [it] deep [and] large: the pile thereof [is] fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
I'm trying to connect the dots..... continued
- Dan 7:10 tells us about a river/stream of fire coming from God's throne -> A river coming from the holies of holies fills the laver (http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/lake-of-fire-molten-sea-of-glass-laver/msg119456/#msg119456)
- Revelation speaks about a Lake of Fire. Many rivers end in a lake. See above.
- LoF AND brimstone. Brimstone is (almost) a synonym for pure/God. So it's not about destruction.
- A better translation is Lake of THE/HIS fire (http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/lake-of-the-fire/) --> Lake of the/His law?
- Lake has a meaning of safety not of despair and destruction (http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/lof-lets-take-a-swim/msg76392/#msg76392)
- Priests regularly purified themselves in LoF (http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/lake-of-fire-molten-sea-of-glass-laver/msg119448/#msg119448)
- People in LoF are being purified and tested. (http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/baptized-by-fire/msg49694/#msg49694)
The Bible speaks about a fiery law. A literal translation is "fire law".
I had a thought about this last week. What if LoF means: Be fully subjected to or submerged in the law?
LoF = law
That laws burn with brimstone. Brimstone is nearly equal to God. So the law is not just a law; it's (purifying) divine law.
Extrapolating a bit....
a. God sits in the Holies of Holies.
b. From His throne flows water. --> Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: ....
c. This water fills the Laver. -> Can be found in Jewish Temple books. (mentioned in OT?)
d. That water is symbolic for hyper refined gold. -> Jewish understanding. (mentioned in OT?)
e. Because it's said hyper refined gold is transparant and shines like a sea of glass and sparkles like fire we can replace water with fire.
f. The law of God is literally called a fire-law.
g. So the law flows from His throne and fills the Laver (LoF)
h. The lake=law burns with brimstone. The Greek word brimstone is very closely related to divine/God(ly)
i. Temple Priests daily wasted themselfs in that Laver to be purified for their Temple duties. -> Verse?
j. That washing in LoF purified them so they where allowed to enter the inner Temple complex.
k. Malachi 3:2 God sits in front of the Laver to purifies His gold. --> Tormented/tested
l. Water represents fire. Fire represents the divine law. So the Laver/LoF is filled with the divine law.
m. The goats that are cast in LoF are just young sheep that need to learn the law. here (http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/the-sheep-and-the-goat/msg104622/#msg104622) and here (http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/the-sheep-and-the-goat/msg104631/#msg104631).
Ok I'm running out of letters :winkgrin: Whatca think?
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Malachi 3:2 But who can abide the day of his coming? And who shall stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner's fire, and like fuller's soap.
this is good but believe the fiery Law shoots out of Gods Mouth and nostrils /anger :2c: God is a consuming FIRE
Psa 18:15 Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O LORD, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Psa 57:4 My soul [is] among lions: [and] I lie [even among] them that are set on fire, [even] the sons of men, whose teeth [are] spears and arrows, and their tongue a sharp sword.
Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
just for consideration :HeartThrob:
Quote from: rosered on June 07, 2011, 06:41:33 PMthis is good but believe the fiery Law shoots out of Gods Mouth and nostrils /anger :2c: God is a consuming FIRE
But that fire certainly isn't always anger.
ACVActs 21 And while fulfilling the day of Pentecost, they were all together at the same place.
2 And suddenly there developed a sound from the sky as of a forceful wind/breath moving, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared to them dividing tongues, as of fire, and they settled upon each one of them.
4 And they were all filled of Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them to declare.
QuotePsa 18:15 Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O LORD, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Psa 57:4 My soul [is] among lions: [and] I lie [even among] them that are set on fire, [even] the sons of men, whose teeth [are] spears and arrows, and their tongue a sharp sword.
Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
just for consideration :HeartThrob:
I'm busy considering RoseY :thumbsup:
Speculation: Enemies can be destroyed by military means. But also by submitting them to the law. Once they see/believe the law they are no longer enemies but friends (in Christ).
Quote from: rosered on June 07, 2011, 06:41:33 PM
this is good but believe the fiery Law shoots out of Gods Mouth and nostrils /anger :2c: God is a consuming FIRE
Psa 18:15 Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O LORD, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Psa 57:4 My soul [is] among lions: [and] I lie [even among] them that are set on fire, [even] the sons of men, whose teeth [are] spears and arrows, and their tongue a sharp sword.
Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
just for consideration :HeartThrob:
Good stuff wings, have not fully processed it yet, don't know if it's full truth as such, but interesting nevertheless.
It's interesting Rose that the majesty of the horse, is to blast it's nostrils as it charges towards the enemy.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: To you both TT AND WW
out of his nostrils , not always anger AGREED ! :HeartThrob:
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
nostrils Strong's H639 - 'aph 1) nostril, nose, face :happygrin:TO SHINE /LIGHT
2) anger :talkangry: wrath of man that does not work the righteouness of God maybe ??Why Jesus come to show us better
when Jesus breathed on his disciples / students they recieved the HOLY SPIRIT /GHOST
1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Jhn 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: rosered on June 07, 2011, 06:41:33 PM
this is good but believe the fiery Law shoots out of Gods Mouth and nostrils /anger :2c: God is a consuming FIRE
Mmmz, I wonder if anger is a Holy quality? If not then God isn't capable of anger..... :dontknow:
What if His anger/fire/stream of brimstone from Gods mouth/nostrils is simply another word for the law.
He judges/speaks judgement/applies the fire-law.
:dontknow:
:cloud9: I've felt HIS anger raise up in me one time. It was startling, because I felt it, like, leap up within me, because "I" personally, was NOT angry. But He was and it was because a family member was trying to both aggravate me, AND more importantly, turn someone else away from belief in Jesus as the Messiah, by extolling the "virtues" of Confuscious, Ghandi, Buddha, ect. as also having "wisdom".
That's when I felt the "leap", and He spoke out of my mouth, "But all those men are DEAD, Jesus is alive!" And I had a very bad feeling that person was about to get some stripes if they didn't heed what He said and repent. My :2c:
passion.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 08, 2011, 10:07:42 AM
Quote from: rosered on June 07, 2011, 06:41:33 PM
this is good but believe the fiery Law shoots out of Gods Mouth and nostrils /anger :2c: God is a consuming FIRE
Mmmz, I wonder if anger is a Holy quality? If not then God isn't capable of anger..... :dontknow:
What if His anger/fire/stream of brimstone from Gods mouth/nostrils is simply another word for the law.
He judges/speaks judgement/applies the fire-law.
:dontknow:
I so see your point WW , the Fiery Law is a standard to be obeyed for thier /our own good , obedience is better than sacrifice , Jesus Christ the Lamb of God did this one for all times , it is enough for God
But God does and Jesus does have righteous indignation , hate evil and we are too in ourselves and in others , look at the harm it does to the innocent all the time
some examples of Gods indignation / righteous / just / chastening of the Lord humbling
Deu 29:28 And the LORD rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and
in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as [it is] this day.
.
Job 10:17 Thou renewest thy witnesses against me, and increasest thine indignation upon me; changes and war [are] against me.
Psa 69:24 Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.
Psa 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels [among them].
Psa 102:10 Because of thine indignation and thy wrath: for thou hast lifted me up, and cast me down.
Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
Isa 10:25 For yet a very little while, and the indignation shall cease, and mine anger in their destruction.
Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
Isa 30:27 Behold, the name of the LORD cometh from far,
burning [with] his anger, and the burden [thereof is] heavy:
his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:
Isa 30:30 And the LORD shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew
the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of [his] anger, and [with] the flame of a devouring fire, [with] scattering, and tempest, and hailstones. Isa 34:2
For the indignation of the LORD [is] upon all nations, and [his] fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
Isa 66:14 And when ye see [this], your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants,
and [his] indignation toward his enemies. Jer 10:10 But the LORD [is] the true God, he [is] the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.
Jer 15:17 I sat not in the assembly of the mockers, nor rejoiced; I sat alone because of thy hand: for thou hast filled me with indignation.
Jer 50:25 The LORD hath opened his armoury, and hath brought forth the weapons of his indignation: for this [is] the work of the Lord GOD of hosts in the land of the Chaldeans.
Lam 2:6 And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as [if it were of] a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest.
Eze 21:31 And I will pour out mine indignation upon thee, I will blow against thee in the fire of my wrath, and deliver thee into the hand of brutish men, [and] skilful to destroy.
Eze 22:24 Son of man, say unto her, Thou [art] the land that is not cleansed, nor rained upon in the day of indignation.
Eze 22:31 Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord GOD.
Dan 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end [shall be].
It was just a thought. Your verses seem to say otherwise. But looking at the original language it's perhaps slightly different.
Again we see storm/raging and nostril. That could be read as breath or (heavy) breathing.
And as we saw before His breath is a stream of fire or brimstone. And that links to the fire-law.
Just a thought :winkgrin:
indignation of [his] anger
Indignation
זעף
za‛aph
BDB Definition:
1) rage, raging, storming, indignation
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from H2196
Same Word by TWOT Number: 569a
anger
אף
'aph
BDB Definition:
1) nostril, nose, face
2) anger
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from H599
Same Word by TWOT Number: 133a
Quote from: wwWhat if His anger/fire/stream of brimstone from Gods mouth/nostrils is simply another word for the law.
He judges/speaks judgement/applies the fire-law.
Yes. I think it might be more appropriate to say this is how he looks to those who are behind the veil--an angry God. So when they try to emulate him or take his place they, too, become angry, controlling, and repressive.
Whereas we know him as the happy God because of Christ Jesus-- :icon_king:
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
--Rom 8
70.1 Timothy 1:11
According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 08, 2011, 04:28:39 PM
It was just a thought. Your verses seem to say otherwise. But looking at the original language it's perhaps slightly different.
Again we see storm/raging and nostril. That could be read as breath or (heavy) breathing.
And as we saw before His breath is a stream of fire or brimstone. And that links to the fire-law.
Just a thought :winkgrin:
indignation of [his] anger
Indignation
זעף
za‛aph
BDB Definition:
1) rage, raging, storming, indignation
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from H2196
Same Word by TWOT Number: 569a
anger
אף
'aph
BDB Definition:
1) nostril, nose, face
2) anger
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from H599
Same Word by TWOT Number: 133a
I can see that fiery LAw / His breath / God is a consuming Fire
Deu 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints:
from his right hand [went] a fiery law for them. Deu 4:24
For the LORD thy God [is] a consuming fire, [even] a jealous God. Deu 9:3 Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God [is] he which goeth over before thee; [as]
a consuming fire he shall destroy them,
and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Hbr 12:29
For our God [is] a consuming fire. this fire for the enemies , but clearly his offspring in Christ can dwell in the FIRE safely examples
Dan the 3 children in the firey furnace
Dan 3:21 Then these men were bound in their coats, their hosen, and their hats, and their [other] garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire,
and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. and Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites.
Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? :HeartThrob:
My :2c:
Isaiah 30:33
For, arranged from former time is Tophet, Even it for the king is prepared, He hath made deep, He hath made large, Its pile [is] fire and much wood, The breath of Jehovah, As a stream of brim stone, is burning in it!
Within God's breath brimstone burns. So to understand brimstone we must understand Gods breath.
It comes from the Hebrew word n\eshamah which is rooted in the Hebrew word nasham which means to destroy but also carries the weight of a woman in travail.
In Genesis 2:7 it is called the BREATH OF LIFE
When God breathed the BREATH OF LIFE into MAN He was birthing Christ within man and destroying the old man.
We know that He/God will magnify and sanctify Himself by fire and brimstone Eze.38:22-23.
And we know that fire and brimstone IS the second death Rev.21:8.
So by these thing we know the fire and brimstone IS of God and is not strange fire or any other kind of fire, it is God Himself and His breath of life which is our inheritance which inheritance is the birthing/manifestation of Jesus Christ IN us.
Now herein is the time of the harvest.
Matthew 3:11-12
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner/barn; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
The time of the harvest is the baptism of the Holy Ghost and fire, and it is by this baptism of fire that throughly purges his floor and gathers the wheat into the garner and burns up the chaff.
So what happens to man when God breathes the breath of life into man?
The breath of life which is the birth of Christ within us produces a CROSS.
Great point Pneuma , the Breath of God !! the baptism
Holy Spirit and of Fire :thumbsup: the old man of sin , son of perdition / loss / destruction
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Matthew 3:11-12
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner/barn; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
comparing chaff as ungodly men as to the Breath of God /Wind
Psa 1:4 The ungodly [are] not so: but [are] like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
Psa 35:5 Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of the LORD chase [them].
Isa 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, [so] their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust:
because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: rosered on June 08, 2011, 04:52:28 PM
I can see that fiery LAw / His breath / God is a consuming Fire
Is it more exact to say not God but His law is a consuming fire?
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 08, 2011, 05:27:26 PM
Quote from: rosered on June 08, 2011, 04:52:28 PM
I can see that fiery LAw / His breath / God is a consuming Fire
Is it more exact to say not God but His law is a consuming fire?
Hi Ww , It says God is a consuming Fire :HeartThrob:
Quote from: rosered on June 08, 2011, 05:38:35 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 08, 2011, 05:27:26 PM
Quote from: rosered on June 08, 2011, 04:52:28 PM
I can see that fiery LAw / His breath / God is a consuming Fire
Is it more exact to say not God but His law is a consuming fire?
Hi Ww , It says God is a consuming Fire :HeartThrob:
But God is not apart from His law, as it is something He lives by.
Quote from: rosered on June 08, 2011, 05:38:35 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 08, 2011, 05:27:26 PM
Quote from: rosered on June 08, 2011, 04:52:28 PM
I can see that fiery LAw / His breath / God is a consuming Fire
Is it more exact to say not God but His law is a consuming fire?
Hi Ww , It says God is a consuming Fire :HeartThrob:
RoseY, I wasn't trying to say the verse is wrong. It was more about what exactly it means.
Scott's answer seems just what I was looking for.
Quote from: pneuma on June 08, 2011, 04:54:53 PM
My :2c:
Isaiah 30:33
For, arranged from former time is Tophet, Even it for the king is prepared, He hath made deep, He hath made large, Its pile [is] fire and much wood, The breath of Jehovah, As a stream of brim stone, is burning in it!
Within God's breath brimstone burns. So to understand brimstone we must understand Gods breath.
It comes from the Hebrew word n\eshamah which is rooted in the Hebrew word nasham which means to destroy but also carries the weight of a woman in travail.
In Genesis 2:7 it is called the BREATH OF LIFE
When God breathed the BREATH OF LIFE into MAN He was birthing Christ within man and destroying the old man.
We know that He/God will magnify and sanctify Himself by fire and brimstone Eze.38:22-23.
And we know that fire and brimstone IS the second death Rev.21:8.
So by these thing we know the fire and brimstone IS of God and is not strange fire or any other kind of fire, it is God Himself and His breath of life which is our inheritance which inheritance is the birthing/manifestation of Jesus Christ IN us.
Now herein is the time of the harvest.
Matthew 3:11-12
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner/barn; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
The time of the harvest is the baptism of the Holy Ghost and fire, and it is by this baptism of fire that throughly purges his floor and gathers the wheat into the garner and burns up the chaff.
So what happens to man when God breathes the breath of life into man?
The breath of life which is the birth of Christ within us produces a CROSS.
Please explain your statements about "breath" "brimstone."
Also "When God breathed the BREATH OF LIFE into MAN He was birthing Christ within man and destroying the old man."
"So by these thing we know the fire and brimstone IS of God and is not strange fire or any other kind of fire, it is God Himself and His breath of life which is our inheritance which inheritance is the birthing/manifestation of Jesus Christ IN us."
Here I am totally lost again..."The time of the harvest is the baptism of the Holy Ghost and fire, and it is by this baptism of fire that throughly purges his floor and gathers the wheat into the garner and burns up the chaff.
So what happens to man when God breathes the breath of life into man?
The breath of life which is the birth of Christ within us produces a CROSS.
QuotePlease explain your statements about "breath" "brimstone."
Scriptures state God breath is a stream of brimstone.
Also "When God breathed the BREATH OF LIFE into MAN He was birthing Christ within man and destroying the old man."
"So by these thing we know the fire and brimstone IS of God and is not strange fire or any other kind of fire, it is God Himself and His breath of life which is our inheritance which inheritance is the birthing/manifestation of Jesus Christ IN us."When you look up the word breath It comes from the Hebrew word n\eshamah which is rooted in the Hebrew word nasham which means to destroy but also carries the weight of a woman in travail.
QuoteHere I am totally lost again..."The time of the harvest is the baptism of the Holy Ghost and fire, and it is by this baptism of fire that throughly purges his floor and gathers the wheat into the garner and burns up the chaff.
The breath of LIFE is the birth of Christ in us, the Holy Ghost is the manifestation of the birth. Think of it this way, the breath of God plants the seed, the seed grows in the womb until the time of travailing, once the time of travailing is past, the manchild is manifest.
So what happens to man when God breathes the breath of life into man?
The breath of life which is the birth of Christ within us produces a CROSS.It is at this time God sets before man the choice of life and death. But I cannot elaborate on this point as it is a banned topic.
"When you look up the word breath It comes from the Hebrew word n\eshamah which is rooted in the Hebrew word nasham which means to destroy but also carries the weight of a woman in travail." Please elaborate I have not found your definition>
"The breath of LIFE is the birth of Christ in us, the Holy Ghost is the manifestation of the birth. Think of it this way, the breath of God plants the seed, the seed grows in the womb until the time of travailing, once the time of travailing is past, the manchild is manifest." Again, please help me to understand. "The breath of LIFE is the birth of Christ in us,.." where is this taught in the Bible?
"When you look up the word breath It comes from the Hebrew word n\eshamah which is rooted in the Hebrew word nasham which means to destroy but also carries the weight of a woman in travail."QuotePlease elaborate I have not found your definition>
5397 { nesh-aw-maw'}
from 5395; TWOT - 1433a; n f
AV - breath 17, blast 3, spirit 2, inspiration 1, souls 1; 24
GK - 5972 { hm;v;nÒ
1) breath, spirit
1a) breath (of God)
1b) breath (of man)
1c) every breathing thing
1d) spirit (of man)
Rooted in
5395 { naw-sham'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 1433; v
AV - destroy 1; 1
GK - 5971 { µv'n:
1) to pant
1a) (Qal) to pant
1a1) of a woman in travail or labour
QuoteAgain, please help me to understand. "The breath of LIFE is the birth of Christ in us,.." where is this taught in the Bible?
Just look at the two Hebrew words I have given. Also what else gives LIFE, but Christ within us.
Micah,
You have to be aware that what's translated as breath does not always have the same underlaying Hebrew word.
ACVGenesis 2
7 And LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.
נשׁמה
neshâmâh
BDB Definition:
1) breath, spirit
1a) breath (of God)
1b) breath (of man)
1c) every breathing thing
1d) spirit (of man)
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from H5395
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1433a
נשׁם
nâsham
BDB Definition:
1) to pant
1a) (Qal) to pant
1a1) of a woman in travail or labour
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1433
ACVGenesis 6
17 And I, behold, I bring the flood of waters upon this earth, to destroy all flesh, in which is the breath of life, from under heaven. Everything that is on the earth shall die.
רוּח
rûach
BDB Definition:
1) wind, breath, mind, spirit
1a) breath
1b) wind
1b1) of heaven
1b2) quarter (of wind), side
1b3) breath of air
1b4) air, gas
1b5) vain, empty thing
1c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
1c1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
1c2) courage
1c3) temper, anger
1c4) impatience, patience
1c5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
1c6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
1c7) prophetic spirit
1d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
1d1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being
1e) spirit (as seat of emotion)
1e1) desire
1e2) sorrow, trouble
1f) spirit
1f1) as seat or organ of mental acts
1f2) rarely of the will
1f3) as seat especially of moral character
1g) Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
1g1) as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy
1g2) as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning
1g3) imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power
1g4) as endowing men with various gifts
1g5) as energy of life
1g6) as manifest in the Shekinah glory
1g7) never referred to as a depersonalized force
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from H7306
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2131a
רוּח
rûach
BDB Definition:
1) (Hiphil) to smell, scent, perceive odour, accept
1a) of horse
1b) of delight (metaphorically)
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2131
All verses that use the same Hebrew word as Genesis 2:7
Gen 2:7
Gen 3:19
Gen 7:22
Gen 19:1
Gen 24:47
Gen 27:45
Gen 30:2
Gen 39:19
Gen 42:6
Gen 44:18
Gen 48:12
Gen 49:6
Gen 49:7
Exod 4:14
Exod 11:8
Exod 15:8
Exod 22:24
Exod 32:10
Exod 32:11
Exod 32:12
Exod 32:19
Exod 32:22
Exod 34:6
Num 11:1
Num 11:10
Num 11:20
Num 11:33
Num 12:9
Num 14:18
Num 22:22
Num 22:27
Num 22:31
Num 24:10
Num 25:3
Num 25:4
Num 32:10
Num 32:13
Num 32:14
Deut 6:15
Deut 7:4
Deut 9:19
Deut 11:17
Deut 13:17
Deut 29:20
Deut 29:23
Deut 29:24
Deut 29:27
Deut 29:28
Deut 31:17
Deut 32:22
Deut 33:10
Josh 7:1
Josh 7:26
Josh 23:16
Judg 2:14
Judg 2:20
Judg 3:8
Judg 6:39
Judg 9:30
Judg 10:7
Judg 14:19
1Sam 1:5
1Sam 11:6
1Sam 17:28
1Sam 20:30
1Sam 20:34
1Sam 20:41
1Sam 24:8
1Sam 25:23
1Sam 25:41
1Sam 28:14
1Sam 28:18
2Sam 6:7
2Sam 12:5
2Sam 14:4
2Sam 14:33
2Sam 18:28
2Sam 22:9
2Sam 22:16
2Sam 24:1
2Sam 24:20
1Kgs 1:23
1Kgs 1:31
2Kgs 13:3
2Kgs 19:28
2Kgs 23:26
2Kgs 24:20
1Chr 13:10
1Chr 21:21
2Chr 7:3
2Chr 12:12
2Chr 20:18
2Chr 25:10
2Chr 25:15
2Chr 28:11
2Chr 28:13
2Chr 29:10
2Chr 30:8
Ezra 8:22
Ezra 10:14
Neh 8:6
Neh 9:17
Job 4:9
Job 9:5
Job 9:13
Job 14:13
Job 16:9
Job 18:4
Job 19:11
Job 20:23
Job 20:28
Job 21:17
Job 27:3
Job 32:2
Job 32:3
Job 32:5
Job 35:15
Job 36:13
Job 40:11
Job 40:24
Job 41:2
Job 42:7
Ps 2:5
Ps 2:12
Ps 6:1
Ps 7:6
Ps 10:4
Ps 18:8
Ps 18:15
Ps 21:9
Ps 27:9
Ps 30:5
Ps 37:8
Ps 55:3
Ps 56:7
Ps 69:24
Ps 74:1
Ps 76:7
Ps 77:9
Ps 78:21
Ps 78:31
Ps 78:38
Ps 78:49
Ps 78:50
Ps 85:3
Ps 85:5
Ps 86:15
Ps 90:7
Ps 90:11
Ps 95:11
Ps 103:8
Ps 106:40
Ps 110:5
Ps 115:6
Ps 124:3
Ps 138:7
Ps 145:8
Prov 11:22
Prov 14:17
Prov 14:29
Prov 15:1
Prov 15:18
Prov 16:32
Prov 19:11
Prov 21:14
Prov 22:24
Prov 24:18
Prov 25:15
Prov 27:4
Prov 29:8
Prov 29:22
Prov 30:33
Song 7:4
Song 7:8
Isa 2:22
Isa 3:21
Isa 5:25
Isa 7:4
Isa 9:12
Isa 9:17
Isa 9:21
Isa 10:4
Isa 10:5
Isa 10:25
Isa 12:1
Isa 13:3
Isa 13:9
Isa 13:13
Isa 14:6
Isa 30:27
Isa 30:30
Isa 37:29
Isa 42:25
Isa 48:9
Isa 49:23
Isa 63:3
Isa 63:6
Isa 65:5
Isa 66:15
Jer 2:35
Jer 4:8
Jer 4:26
Jer 7:20
Jer 10:24
Jer 12:13
Jer 15:14
Jer 15:15
Jer 17:4
Jer 18:23
Jer 21:5
Jer 23:20
Jer 25:37
Jer 25:38
Jer 30:24
Jer 32:31
Jer 32:37
Jer 33:5
Jer 36:7
Jer 42:18
Jer 44:6
Jer 49:37
Jer 51:45
Jer 52:3
Lam 1:12
Lam 2:1
Lam 2:3
Lam 2:6
Lam 2:21
Lam 2:22
Lam 3:43
Lam 3:66
Lam 4:11
Lam 4:20
Ezek 5:13
Ezek 5:15
Ezek 7:3
Ezek 7:8
Ezek 8:17
Ezek 13:13
Ezek 16:12
Ezek 20:8
Ezek 20:21
Ezek 22:20
Ezek 23:25
Ezek 25:14
Ezek 35:11
Ezek 38:18
Ezek 43:8
Dan 9:16
Dan 11:20
Hos 8:5
Hos 11:9
Hos 13:11
Hos 14:4
Joel 2:13
Amos 1:11
Amos 4:10
Jonah 3:9
Jonah 4:2
Mic 5:15
Mic 7:18
Nah 1:3
Nah 1:6
Hab 3:8
Hab 3:12
Zeph 2:2
Zeph 2:3
Zeph 3:8
Zech 10:3
All verses that use the same Hebrew word as Genesis 6:17
Gen 1:2
Gen 3:8
Gen 6:3
Gen 6:17
Gen 7:15
Gen 7:22
Gen 8:1
Gen 26:35
Gen 41:8
Gen 41:38
Gen 45:27
Exod 6:9
Exod 10:13
Exod 10:19
Exod 14:21
Exod 15:8
Exod 15:10
Exod 28:3
Exod 31:3
Exod 35:21
Exod 35:31
Num 5:14
Num 5:30
Num 11:17
Num 11:25
Num 11:26
Num 11:29
Num 11:31
Num 14:24
Num 16:22
Num 24:2
Num 27:16
Num 27:18
Deut 2:30
Deut 34:9
Josh 2:11
Josh 5:1
Judg 3:10
Judg 6:34
Judg 8:3
Judg 9:23
Judg 11:29
Judg 13:25
Judg 14:6
Judg 14:19
Judg 15:14
Judg 15:19
1Sam 1:15
1Sam 10:6
1Sam 10:10
1Sam 11:6
1Sam 16:13
1Sam 16:14
1Sam 16:15
1Sam 16:16
1Sam 16:23
1Sam 18:10
1Sam 19:9
1Sam 19:20
1Sam 19:23
1Sam 30:12
2Sam 22:11
2Sam 22:16
2Sam 23:2
1Kgs 10:5
1Kgs 18:12
1Kgs 18:45
1Kgs 19:11
1Kgs 21:5
1Kgs 22:21
1Kgs 22:22
1Kgs 22:23
1Kgs 22:24
2Kgs 2:9
2Kgs 2:15
2Kgs 2:16
2Kgs 3:17
2Kgs 19:7
1Chr 5:26
1Chr 9:24
1Chr 12:18
1Chr 28:12
2Chr 9:4
2Chr 15:1
2Chr 18:20
2Chr 18:21
2Chr 18:22
2Chr 18:23
2Chr 20:14
2Chr 21:16
2Chr 24:20
2Chr 36:22
Ezra 1:1
Ezra 1:5
Neh 9:20
Neh 9:30
Job 1:19
Job 4:9
Job 4:15
Job 6:4
Job 6:26
Job 7:7
Job 7:11
Job 8:2
Job 9:18
Job 10:12
Job 12:10
Job 15:2
Job 15:13
Job 15:30
Job 16:3
Job 17:1
Job 19:17
Job 20:3
Job 21:4
Job 21:18
Job 26:13
Job 27:3
Job 28:25
Job 30:15
Job 30:22
Job 32:8
Job 32:18
Job 33:4
Job 34:14
Job 37:21
Job 41:16
Ps 1:4
Ps 11:6
Ps 18:10
Ps 18:15
Ps 18:42
Ps 31:5
Ps 32:2
Ps 33:6
Ps 34:18
Ps 35:5
Ps 48:7
Ps 51:10
Ps 51:11
Ps 51:12
Ps 51:17
Ps 55:8
Ps 76:12
Ps 77:3
Ps 77:6
Ps 78:8
Ps 78:39
Ps 83:13
Ps 103:16
Ps 104:3
Ps 104:4
Ps 104:29
Ps 104:30
Ps 106:33
Ps 107:25
Ps 135:7
Ps 135:17
Ps 139:7
Ps 142:3
Ps 143:4
Ps 143:7
Ps 143:10
Ps 146:4
Ps 147:18
Ps 148:8
Prov 1:23
Prov 11:13
Prov 11:29
Prov 14:29
Prov 15:4
Prov 15:13
Prov 16:2
Prov 16:18
Prov 16:19
Prov 16:32
Prov 17:22
Prov 17:27
Prov 18:14
Prov 25:14
Prov 25:23
Prov 25:28
Prov 27:16
Prov 29:11
Prov 29:23
Prov 30:4
Eccl 1:6
Eccl 1:14
Eccl 1:17
Eccl 2:11
Eccl 2:17
Eccl 2:26
Eccl 3:19
Eccl 3:21
Eccl 4:4
Eccl 4:6
Eccl 4:16
Eccl 5:16
Eccl 6:9
Eccl 7:8
Eccl 7:9
Eccl 8:8
Eccl 10:4
Eccl 11:4
Eccl 11:5
Eccl 12:7
Isa 4:4
Isa 7:2
Isa 11:2
Isa 11:4
Isa 11:15
Isa 17:13
Isa 19:3
Isa 19:14
Isa 25:4
Isa 26:9
Isa 26:18
Isa 27:8
Isa 28:6
Isa 29:10
Isa 29:24
Isa 30:1
Isa 30:28
Isa 31:3
Isa 32:2
Isa 32:15
Isa 33:11
Isa 34:16
Isa 37:7
Isa 38:16
Isa 40:7
Isa 40:13
Isa 41:16
Isa 41:29
Isa 42:1
Isa 42:5
Isa 44:3
Isa 48:16
Isa 54:6
Isa 57:13
Isa 57:15
Isa 57:16
Isa 59:19
Isa 59:21
Isa 61:1
Isa 61:3
Isa 63:10
Isa 63:11
Isa 63:14
Isa 64:6
Isa 65:14
Isa 66:2
Jer 2:24
Jer 4:11
Jer 4:12
Jer 5:13
Jer 10:13
Jer 10:14
Jer 13:24
Jer 14:6
Jer 18:17
Jer 22:22
Jer 49:32
Jer 49:36
Jer 51:1
Jer 51:11
Jer 51:16
Jer 51:17
Jer 52:23
Lam 4:20
Ezek 1:4
Ezek 1:12
Ezek 1:20
Ezek 1:21
Ezek 2:2
Ezek 3:12
Ezek 3:14
Ezek 3:24
Ezek 5:2
Ezek 5:10
Ezek 5:12
Ezek 8:3
Ezek 10:17
Ezek 11:1
Ezek 11:5
Ezek 11:19
Ezek 11:24
Ezek 12:14
Ezek 13:3
Ezek 13:11
Ezek 13:13
Ezek 17:10
Ezek 17:21
Ezek 18:31
Ezek 19:12
Ezek 20:32
Ezek 21:7
Ezek 27:26
Ezek 36:26
Ezek 36:27
Ezek 37:1
Ezek 37:5
Ezek 37:6
Ezek 37:8
Ezek 37:9
Ezek 37:10
Ezek 37:14
Ezek 39:29
Ezek 42:16
Ezek 42:17
Ezek 42:18
Ezek 42:19
Ezek 42:20
Ezek 43:5
Dan 2:1
Dan 2:3
Dan 8:8
Dan 11:4
Hos 4:12
Hos 4:19
Hos 5:4
Hos 8:7
Hos 9:7
Hos 12:1
Hos 13:15
Joel 2:28
Joel 2:29
Amos 4:13
Jonah 1:4
Jonah 4:8
Mic 2:7
Mic 2:11
Mic 3:8
Hab 1:11
Hab 2:19
Hag 1:14
Hag 2:5
Zech 2:6
Zech 4:6
Zech 5:9
Zech 6:5
Zech 6:8
Zech 7:12
Zech 12:1
Zech 12:10
Zech 13:2
Mal 2:15
Mal 2:16
Quote from: pneuma on June 08, 2011, 04:54:53 PM
My :2c:
Isaiah 30:33
For, arranged from former time is Tophet, Even it for the king is prepared, He hath made deep, He hath made large, Its pile [is] fire and much wood, The breath of Jehovah, As a stream of brim stone, is burning in it!
Within God's breath brimstone burns. So to understand brimstone we must understand Gods breath.
It comes from the Hebrew word n\eshamah which is rooted in the Hebrew word nasham which means to destroy but also carries the weight of a woman in travail.
In Genesis 2:7 it is called the BREATH OF LIFE
When God breathed the BREATH OF LIFE into MAN He was birthing Christ within man and destroying the old man.
We know that He/God will magnify and sanctify Himself by fire and brimstone Eze.38:22-23.
And we know that fire and brimstone IS the second death Rev.21:8.
So by these thing we know the fire and brimstone IS of God and is not strange fire or any other kind of fire, it is God Himself and His breath of life which is our inheritance which inheritance is the birthing/manifestation of Jesus Christ IN us.
Now herein is the time of the harvest.
Matthew 3:11-12
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner/barn; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
The time of the harvest is the baptism of the Holy Ghost and fire, and it is by this baptism of fire that throughly purges his floor and gathers the wheat into the garner and burns up the chaff.
So what happens to man when God breathes the breath of life into man?
The breath of life which is the birth of Christ within us produces a CROSS.
BRIMSTONE in Revelation G2303 theion Probably neuter of G2304 (in its original sense of flashing);
sulphur: - brimstone.G2304 theios From G2316;
godlike (neuter as noun, divinity): - divine, godhead.
G2316 theos Of uncertain affinity;
a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].
Sulfur aka Brimstone is used for purififing.
Origin of SULFUR
Middle English sulphur brimstone, from Latin sulpur, sulphur, sulfur
First Known Use: 14th century
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 08, 2011, 07:48:15 PM
Quote from: pneuma on June 08, 2011, 04:54:53 PM
My :2c:
Isaiah 30:33
For, arranged from former time is Tophet, Even it for the king is prepared, He hath made deep, He hath made large, Its pile [is] fire and much wood, The breath of Jehovah, As a stream of brim stone, is burning in it!
Within God's breath brimstone burns. So to understand brimstone we must understand Gods breath.
It comes from the Hebrew word n\eshamah which is rooted in the Hebrew word nasham which means to destroy but also carries the weight of a woman in travail.
In Genesis 2:7 it is called the BREATH OF LIFE
When God breathed the BREATH OF LIFE into MAN He was birthing Christ within man and destroying the old man.
We know that He/God will magnify and sanctify Himself by fire and brimstone Eze.38:22-23.
And we know that fire and brimstone IS the second death Rev.21:8.
So by these thing we know the fire and brimstone IS of God and is not strange fire or any other kind of fire, it is God Himself and His breath of life which is our inheritance which inheritance is the birthing/manifestation of Jesus Christ IN us.
Now herein is the time of the harvest.
Matthew 3:11-12
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner/barn; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
The time of the harvest is the baptism of the Holy Ghost and fire, and it is by this baptism of fire that throughly purges his floor and gathers the wheat into the garner and burns up the chaff.
So what happens to man when God breathes the breath of life into man?
The breath of life which is the birth of Christ within us produces a CROSS.
BRIMSTONE in Revelation G2303 theion Probably neuter of G2304 (in its original sense of flashing); sulphur: - brimstone.
G2304 theios From G2316; godlike (neuter as noun, divinity): - divine, godhead.
G2316 theos Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].
Sulfur aka Brimstone is used for purififing.
Origin of SULFUR
Middle English sulphur brimstone, from Latin sulpur, sulphur, sulfur
First Known Use: 14th century
yes but where does brimstone come from?
Answer: the breath of God
ACVIsaiah 30
33 For a Topheth is prepared of old, yea, it is made ready for the king. He has made it deep and large. The pile of it is fire and much wood. The breath of LORD kindles it, like a stream of brimstone.
:cloud9: Quickly, before I have to get some sleep.....@ pneuma, excellent posts :HeartThrob:
@ WW......here's how the two "positions" are reconciled. If we are blameless because we have laid whatever needs to be consumed, down, then the fire only comes to burn up the chaff, so His anger is directed at it, and it is destroyed but we ourselves suffer no loss.
If we have overcome whatever it is, thru His Spirit in us, then when the fire comes, instead of the letter of it bringing condemnation to the flesh, it burns not at all, and brings healing (wholeness) to whatever it touches. That wholeness manifests as an opening of the eyes of our understanding to the SPIRITUAL meaning behind the letter that is being "cast" at us.
Whether or not the fire brings "death" to the flesh or life, depends on the condition of the heart, in regards to what is needed. In actuality, both happen, even if it comes as "death", because even His judgments are unto victory.
I have experienced this several times in one way I'll share right now, and that is when the scriptures were cast in my teeth in anger towards me, instead of them hitting flesh in me (because I had already overcame whatever it was) and "touching" me, the Lord quickened NEW LIFE in them to me.
So what the "enemy" (principalities, coming thru men given over to the spirit of condemnation with a wrong motive of the heart in using the scriptures) meant for evil, God meant for good, as the "enemy" in them actually blessed me.
This principle is shown in the place where it talked about Paul being the ship, and they "sounded" and found the water depth was 20 fathoms, then as they drew closer to shore, it was 15 fathoms, and so on.
The water is as the Spirit when the FIERY DARTS (letter being used to condemn) of the wicked (wrong spirit) cast them at us, and it quenches them. The deeper the water, the more dying to self has taken place, and the less likely any of them will hit earth (flesh).
The word for sounding is closely related to the word for parable, and has the connotation of something thrown. This is why Jesus rebuked the teachers of Israel, the Pharisees, for not understanding the parables. Their "water" wasn't deep enough; He was "sounding" to find the depth, with the parables.
And again, this goes back to what I shared earlier about the waters below the firmament, being as a baptism conforming us unto the likeness of His death, which is what the baptism of John symbolized. Fiery darts can't hurt a dead man. :laughing7:
And yes, both baptisms are necessary for ALL righteousness, as Jesus told John when he protested that it was he (only) that needed to be baptized by Jesus. My :2c: Blessings....
"Micah,
You have to be aware that what's translated as breath does not always have the same underlaying Hebrew word."
Thank you WW, I am very aware of that, and thats why many have become unsure of many things. Gen. 2:7 the breath of life is just that, it was the very first, breath, wind, puff into the mist and dust of man.
The breath of life made man/adam/dust a living soul. Now that is a simple understanding, that breath of life got mankind going. It is the repition of breathing in and out, unconciouslly. Life/Living H2416 chay From H2421; alive; hence raw (flesh); fresh H2421 châyâh A prim root (compare H2331, H2424); to live,
Gen 3:20 And the man calleth his wife's name Eve: for she hath been mother of all living.
Jesus said Joh 10:10 `The thief doth not come, except that he may steal, and kill, and destroy; I came that they may have life, and may have it abundantly.
I do not reason that this life abundantly is the the breath of life of Gen. 2:7
PS I did see the destroy deffintion of breath
:thumbsup:
:cloud9: My :2c:.....
Life = the Son
Life more abundantly = the Father also
Life more abundantly is the Seed that REMAINS......(death swallowed up of life, not UN-clothed, but clothed upon)
This is why it says you can't have the Father without the Son, nor the Son without the Father.
Quote from: Cardinal on June 08, 2011, 08:07:52 PM
:cloud9: Quickly, before I have to get some sleep.....@ pneuma, excellent posts :HeartThrob:
@ WW......here's how the two "positions" are reconciled. If we are blameless because we have laid whatever needs to be consumed, down, then the fire only comes to burn up the chaff, so His anger is directed at it, and it is destroyed but we ourselves suffer no loss.
If we have overcome whatever it is, thru His Spirit in us, then when the fire comes, instead of the letter of it bringing condemnation to the flesh, it burns not at all, and brings healing (wholeness) to whatever it touches. That wholeness manifests as an opening of the eyes of our understanding to the SPIRITUAL meaning behind the letter that is being "cast" at us.
Whether or not the fire brings "death" to the flesh or life, depends on the condition of the heart, in regards to what is needed. In actuality, both happen, even if it comes as "death", because even His judgments are unto victory.
I have experienced this several times in one way I'll share right now, and that is when the scriptures were cast in my teeth in anger towards me, instead of them hitting flesh in me (because I had already overcame whatever it was) and "touching" me, the Lord quickened NEW LIFE in them to me. So what the enemy (carnally minded men with wrong motive of the heart in using the scriptures) meant for evil, God meant for good, as the "enemy" in them actually blessed me.
This principle is shown in the place where it talked about Paul being the ship, and they "sounded" and found the water depth was 20 fathoms, then as they drew closer to shore, it was 15 fathoms, and so on.
The water is as the Spirit when the FIERY DARTS (letter being used to condemn) of the wicked (wrong spirit) cast them at us, and it quenches them. The deeper the water, the more dying to self has taken place, and the less likely any of them will hit earth (flesh).
The word for sounding is closely related to the word for parable, and has the connotation of something thrown. This is why Jesus rebuked the teachers of Israel, the Pharisees, for not understanding the parables. Their "water" wasn't deep enough; He was "sounding" to find the depth, with the parables.
And again, this goes back to what I shared earlier about the waters below the firmament, being as a baptism conforming us unto the likeness of His death, which is what the baptism of John symbolized. Fiery darts can't hurt a dead man. :laughing7:
And yes, both baptisms are necessary for ALL righteousness, as Jesus told John when he protested that it was he (only) that needed to be baptized by Jesus. My :2c: Blessings....
So you believe in two baptisms? And if you reason that John' baptism is needed, why did Jesus, BAPTIZE NO ONE with this baptism? Joh 4:2 (though indeed Jesus himself was not baptizing, but his disciples,)
In fact John knew that there was only one baptism Luk 3:16 John answered, saying to all, `I indeed with water do baptise you, but he cometh who is mightier than I, of whom I am not worthy to loose the latchet of his sandals--
he shall baptise you with the Holy Spirit and with fire; Ehp. 4:5 one Lord, one faith,
one baptism,
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 08, 2011, 08:11:22 PM
"Micah,
You have to be aware that what's translated as breath does not always have the same underlaying Hebrew word."
Thank you WW, I am very aware of that, and thats why many have become unsure of many things. Gen. 2:7 the breath of life is just that, it was the very first, breath, wind, puff into the mist and dust of man.
The breath of life made man/adam/dust a living soul. Now that is a simple understanding, that breath of life got mankind going. It is the repition of breathing in and out, unconciouslly. Life/Living H2416 chay From H2421; alive; hence raw (flesh); fresh H2421 châyâh A prim root (compare H2331, H2424); to live,
Gen 3:20 And the man calleth his wife's name Eve: for she hath been mother of all living.
Jesus said Joh 10:10 `The thief doth not come, except that he may steal, and kill, and destroy; I came that they may have life, and may have it abundantly.
I do not reason that this life abundantly is the the breath of life of Gen. 2:7
PS I did see the destroy deffintion of breath
Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Many believe that this is speaking of how natural man was created.
They believe that God took dust from the ground, breathed His spirit into the dust and that this union of dust and spirit is the make up of man who is then called a living soul.
But is that what God said?
Let's look closely at this scripture.
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground.
It says plainly here that God formed MAN of the dust of the ground before He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and before MAN became a living soul.
Now we know that man is made up of spirit, soul and body. 1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
This man of dust already had a spirit, soul and body, for is not man made up of spirit, soul and body?
And if this man of dust spoken of here did not already have a spirit, soul and body can it be rightly called man?
Cannot we understand by this that man was already created? And that God is doing something other then creating a natural man here?
God is not creating a natural man here as in the creation of the first man Adam, but He is shaping man to be in His image and likeness here.
We read in Genesis 1:26-27
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
The word created here comes from the Hebrew word bara and formed from Genesis 2:7 is the Hebrew word yatsar.
So why does the scriptures use two different words if they are both dealing with the creation of man?
Because the man being formed in Genesis 2:7 finds his fulfillment in Gen.1:26-27 in being created in the image and likeness of God.
Yatsar comes with the weight of something being squeezed into shape as a potter molding the clay.
Genesis 2:7 is telling us the process of how we are being formed into the image and likeness of God, it is not telling us how natural man was created, but it is telling us how the spiritual man is being created.
Gen.2:7 is not speaking of the creation of natural man.
The old man is the man of dust, the flesh man or the man of sin, a living creature/beast man that lives unto itself, this is that MAN we are/were before God breathes the breath of life unto MAN.
Quote from: Cardinal on June 08, 2011, 08:19:36 PM
:cloud9: My :2c:.....
Life = the Son
Life more abundantly = the Father also
Life more abundantly is the Seed that REMAINS......(death swallowed up of life, not UN-clothed, but clothed upon)
This is why it says you can't have the Father without the Son, nor the Son without the Father.
Amen, a double portion of LIFE, the LIFE of the Father and the LIFE of the Son.
Talk about being blessed beyound measure
Quote from: Cardinal on June 08, 2011, 08:19:36 PM
:cloud9: My :2c:.....
Life = the Son
Life more abundantly = the Father also
Life more abundantly is the Seed that REMAINS......(death swallowed up of life, not UN-clothed, but clothed upon)
This is why it says you can't have the Father without the Son, nor the Son without the Father.
Joh 10:30
I and the Father are one.' How come everything seems to have be broke down? "Life more abundantly is the Seed that REMAINS..." Where can I find more of this thought in the Book? Thanks and on that note I will attempt to stay out of this one as I should with many others I am sure. But I will say He led you to a gold mine if you get into this, "Yatsar comes with the weight of something being squeezed into shape as a potter molding the clay."
Peace and Love Through Jesus
Interesting pneuma. But I see it the other way round. That God first created Mankind as Spirit beings, as caretakers over the Earth in Genesis 1.
Then he decides to create the first human soul , a person called Adam, made of physical flesh and breath and places Adam in a denser dimension.
:2c:
Quote from: Cardinal on June 08, 2011, 08:07:52 PM
:cloud9: Quickly, before I have to get some sleep.....@ pneuma, excellent posts :HeartThrob:
That's the advantage of being unsaved. I require less sleep because my soul sleeps all day long :winkgrin:
Quote@ WW......here's how the two "positions" are reconciled.
Seems I need to start digging in this thread what those postions are...
QuoteIf we are blameless because we have laid whatever needs to be consumed, down, then the fire only comes to burn up the chaff, so His anger is directed at it, and it is destroyed but we ourselves suffer no loss.
If we have overcome whatever it is, thru His Spirit in us, then when the fire comes, instead of the letter of it bringing condemnation to the flesh, it burns not at all, and brings healing (wholeness) to whatever it touches.
So it's like antibiotics. That also attacks the 'chaff'.
Quote from: thinktank on June 08, 2011, 08:31:10 PM
Interesting pneuma. But I see it the other way round. That God first created Mankind as Spirit beings, as caretakers over the Earth in Genesis 1.
Then he decides to create the first human soul , a person called Adam, made of physical flesh and breath and places Adam in a denser dimension.
:2c:
The FIRST man is of the earth earthy.
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
If the first man was spiritual as you suppose why do the scriptures state
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 08, 2011, 08:21:40 PM
So you believe in two baptisms? And if you reason that John' baptism is needed, why did Jesus, BAPTIZE NO ONE with this baptism? Joh 4:2 (though indeed Jesus himself was not baptizing, but his disciples,)
In fact John knew that there was only one baptism Luk 3:16 John answered, saying to all, `I indeed with water do baptise you, but he cometh who is mightier than I, of whom I am not worthy to loose the latchet of his sandals--he shall baptise you with the Holy Spirit and with fire; Ehp. 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Jesus didn't rebuke John when he spoke about fire baptism. --> So it must be valid.
Jesus was there to recieve a water baptism. Jesus wasn't someone that wasted His time with useless stuff. He would have told John if it was useless. -> So it must be valid.
What I can accept is that AFTER His resurrection only fire baptism was needed.
OT covered sin -> Washed the outside
NT erases sin -> Washed teh inside
I can think of at least 2 reasons why Jesus was baptized in water.
a] He was died in the water grave representing a goat being killed. -> Sure about this one.
b] When a (high) priest started his job (don't know the English word. Inauguration) he was washed in the Laver. -> A guess based on similarity.
:2c:
Quote from: pneuma on June 08, 2011, 08:45:18 PM
Quote from: thinktank on June 08, 2011, 08:31:10 PM
Interesting pneuma. But I see it the other way round. That God first created Mankind as Spirit beings, as caretakers over the Earth in Genesis 1.
Then he decides to create the first human soul , a person called Adam, made of physical flesh and breath and places Adam in a denser dimension.
:2c:
The FIRST man is of the earth earthy.
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
If the first man was spiritual as you suppose why do the scriptures state
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
Looking at the context we see
45And so it is written, The
first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven
So it is the same as what I wrote, doesn't contradict it, but supports it.
It does however contradict your post. You said
Pneuma Quote
Yatsar comes with the weight of something being squeezed into shape as a potter molding the clay.
Genesis 2:7 is telling us the process of how we are being formed into the image and likeness of God, it is not telling us how natural man was created, but it is telling us how the spiritual man is being created.
Gen.2:7 is not speaking of the creation of natural man.
The old man is the man of dust, the flesh man or the man of sin, a living creature/beast man that lives unto itself, this is that MAN we are/were before God breathes the breath of life unto MAN.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 08, 2011, 08:46:05 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 08, 2011, 08:21:40 PM
So you believe in two baptisms? And if you reason that John' baptism is needed, why did Jesus, BAPTIZE NO ONE with this baptism? Joh 4:2 (though indeed Jesus himself was not baptizing, but his disciples,)
In fact John knew that there was only one baptism Luk 3:16 John answered, saying to all, `I indeed with water do baptise you, but he cometh who is mightier than I, of whom I am not worthy to loose the latchet of his sandals--he shall baptise you with the Holy Spirit and with fire; Ehp. 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Jesus didn't rebuke John when he spoke about fire baptism. --> So it must be valid.
Jesus was there to recieve a water baptism. Jesus wasn't someone that wasted His time with useless stuff. He would have told John if it was useless. -> So it must be valid.
What I can accept is that AFTER His resurrection only fire baptism was needed.
OT covered sin -> Washed the outside
NT erases sin -> Washed teh inside
I can think of at least 2 reasons why Jesus was baptized in water.
a] He was died in the water grave representing a goat being killed. -> Sure about this one.
b] When a (high) priest started his job (don't know the English word. Inauguration) he was washed in the Laver. -> A guess based on similarity.
:2c:
"Jesus wasn't someone that wasted His time with useless stuff. He would have told John if it was useless. -> So it must be valid." There was no wasted time, Jesus was the Lamb without spot or blemish, Jesus came to full the law. Jesus had to be baptized in water.
Certainly water baptism was valid, until it was no more valid, Eph. 4:5 teaches ONE baptism and that baptism is Holy Spirit/Ghost and Fire.
Water baptism was "John' baptism," if water baptism was supposed to be a part of His Plan then I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus would have given the example, but He did not Joh.4:2 and Paul understood this
1Co 1:17
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but--to proclaim good news; not in wisdom of discourse, that the cross of the Christ may not be made of none effect;
Strange for Paul to express his work in that fashion, is it not?
Quote from: thinktank on June 08, 2011, 09:17:31 PM
Quote from: pneuma on June 08, 2011, 08:45:18 PM
Quote from: thinktank on June 08, 2011, 08:31:10 PM
Interesting pneuma. But I see it the other way round. That God first created Mankind as Spirit beings, as caretakers over the Earth in Genesis 1.
Then he decides to create the first human soul , a person called Adam, made of physical flesh and breath and places Adam in a denser dimension.
:2c:
The FIRST man is of the earth earthy.
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
If the first man was spiritual as you suppose why do the scriptures state
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
Looking at the context we see
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven
So it is the same as what I wrote, doesn't contradict it, but supports it.
It does however contradict your post. You said
Pneuma Quote
Yatsar comes with the weight of something being squeezed into shape as a potter molding the clay.
Genesis 2:7 is telling us the process of how we are being formed into the image and likeness of God, it is not telling us how natural man was created, but it is telling us how the spiritual man is being created.
Gen.2:7 is not speaking of the creation of natural man.
The old man is the man of dust, the flesh man or the man of sin, a living creature/beast man that lives unto itself, this is that MAN we are/were before God breathes the breath of life unto MAN.
Gen.1:26-27 is a prophesy of Christ and us in Christ.
For how else can God make man in His image and likeness except through unity with Jesus Christ
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 08, 2011, 06:21:33 PM
Quote from: rosered on June 08, 2011, 05:38:35 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 08, 2011, 05:27:26 PM
Quote from: rosered on June 08, 2011, 04:52:28 PM
I can see that fiery LAw / His breath / God is a consuming Fire
Is it more exact to say not God but His law is a consuming fire?
Hi Ww , It says God is a consuming Fire :HeartThrob:
RoseY, I wasn't trying to say the verse is wrong. It was more about what exactly it means.
Scott's answer seems just what I was looking for.
Rev 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and [there were]
seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. :HeartThrob:
I agree there are 7 spirits, but I don't see the connection with consuming fire.
Finally after nearly 2000 year the LoF riddle is solved. :msealed: Where's catch-42? :sigh:
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 08, 2011, 11:44:06 PM
I agree there are 7 spirits, but I don't see the connection with consuming fire.
Finally after nearly 2000 year the LoF riddle is solved. :msealed: Where's catch-42? :sigh:
:dontknow:
Gen.1:26-27 is a prophesy of Christ and us in Christ.
For how else can God make man in His image and likeness except through unity with Jesus Christ
Pneuma
-------------
Prophecy?
That's a large assumption to make. We might not understand how it is the first Mankind, were created in Gods image, but to deduce it to prophecy seems more like a strawman, explanation. Why is Genesis 1 a prophecy, but Genesis 2 is real?
Throughout the old testament we hear of the Spirit in man.
Quote from: thinktank on June 09, 2011, 01:11:29 AM
Gen.1:26-27 is a prophesy of Christ and us in Christ.
For how else can God make man in His image and likeness except through unity with Jesus Christ
Pneuma
-------------
Prophecy?
That's a large assumption to make. We might not understand how it is the first Mankind, were created in Gods image, but to deduce it to prophecy seems more like a strawman, explanation. Why is Genesis 1 a prophecy, but Genesis 2 is real?
Throughout the old testament we hear of the Spirit in man.
Not as large an assumption as you think TT.
Here is what Scriptures in 1Co.15 affirm about the FIRST man Adam.
He was a living soul
Natural
Earth earthy
We as of right now bear the image of the EARTHY ( this is the image of the FIRST man.)
Here is what those same scriptures affirm of Christ.
He is a quickening spirit
Spiritual
The Lord from Heaven
We shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
These scriptures show the contrast between the FIRST man (Adam) and the SECOND man (Christ).
Which of the two is in the image and likeness of God?
If the first man (Adam) is in the image and likeness of God then the second man (Christ) cannot be in God's image and likeness.
Is the image of God earth earthy? Is God's image natural?
We as of right now bear the image of the first man, but we shall also bear the image of the second man.
TT only one is the image and likeness of God, and that one is Christ, therefore the First man Adam cannot be the image and likeness of God.
Therefore Gen.1:26-27 must be a prophesy of Christ and us in Christ. There is only ONE WAY that man can be made into Gods image and likeness and that is through Jesus Christ.
As regarding Gen 2 through to Rev. it is the unfolding of how God is creating man in His image and likeness.
Man simply is not there yet, but we have the promise that we SHALL also bear the IMAGE of the HEAVENLY. What is a promise but a prophesy of what is to come.
TT here is an small article I wrote on the many membered body of Christ that might be of some help in seeing Gen.1:26-27 as a prophesy of Christ and us in Christ.
The many membered body of Christ
Genesis 1:26-28
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
I have often spoken of these scriptures as being a prophesy of Christ and us in Christ.
And I would like to explore this a little further to show how it is speaking of the many membered body of Christ and the bride of this many membered body and how they are made one and replenish the earth and subdue it.
In every body there is a head, neck, shoulders, arms, torso, legs and feet etc.
These help make up the whole of who Christ is.
Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the head of the body, in whom the fullness of the Godhead dwells. There is nothing lacking of God in him, he is the express image of the Father.
He is the Christ and in him are many members, for the scriptures state expressly that Jesus is the head of the body, who is the church, and as head of the church He gave himself for the salvation of His body.
Colossians 1:17-18
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Ephesians 5:23
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Now as Jesus is the head of the body then there must needs be the rest of the body, neck, shoulders, arms, torso, legs and feet etc.
I believe we are the feet of the body of Christ and will go into this in more detail later.
Paul speak of this here
1 Corinthians 12:12-27
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
Christ is a many membered body not just the Head.
Jesus said in Hebrews 10:5 that God had prepared for Him a body.
Hebrews 10:5
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Hebrews go on to say in verses 10, 12 and 13
10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Now I know literally speaking we understand this to be the physical body that Jesus had that he gave once for all. But I believe it speaks of much more then His physical body, and that it is speaking of us who are the body of Christ.
Jesus as the head of the body is waiting for the rest of the body to be prepared that we may be glorified together with Him. When we are glorified with Him ( us being the feet ) His enemies are made His footstool.
We see in Romans 8:16-25
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Notice that the whole of creation is still groaning in travail and waiting to be delivered from bondage. Why?
Why was it not delivered out of bondage upon His resurrection?
Because He waits for the manifestation of the rest of His body that the whole body might be glorified together with Him.
1 Corinthians
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many. 15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
Thus it is by one Spirit we are all baptized into one body, this being the mystical body of Christ. The head of the body, Jesus of Nazareth can not say to the feet I have no need of you. For without the feet the body of Christ would not be complete.
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: 25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. 27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
Now let's look at one particular member of the many membered body of Christ.
The feet, who I believe we represent.
We read in Genesis 3:15
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Now we all know that the seed in reference is to Christ.
But this is a promise not given just to the head of the body Jesus, but is in reference to the whole mystical body of Christ. For we read in
Romans 16:19-20
19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil. 20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
We are the feet of Christ that shall shortly bruise Satan under our feet.
Hebrews 2:5-11
5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Why is it that we do not see all things yet put under the feet of Christ?
It is because the feet of the body of Christ have not yet been manifested to the world.
The whole world is still groaning in travail waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God who make up the rest of the body of Christ.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
What is it we see right now? We see Jesus.
Thank God we see Jesus the head of the body, for it is the head of the body that tasted death for every man, bring many sons ( the rest of the body ) unto glory. For it is the head that sanctifieth the rest of the body , and the body is one.
One of the greatest revelation of Jesus Christ being a many membered body can be seen when Saul was going to Damascus to persecute the body of Christ.
We read Acts 9:3-6
3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
Can we not see by this revelation that Jesus is the head of the body of Christ.
Jesus Himself was already at the right hand of God, yet Jesus says to Saul: Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? Jesus said this because when one member of the body suffers the whole body suffers. Jesus was telling Paul that by persecuting His body he was persecuting Him.
What a revelation Saul received when he first came to know our Lord.
Surely Paul knew what he was saying when he said he was a son born out of due season.
Paul knew he was a member of the body of Christ.
Acts 19:14-15
14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so. 15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
Why would this evil spirit recognize Jesus and Paul and not recognize the chief priest?
Because Jesus is the head of the body and Paul was a member of the body of Christ.
Jesus states in
John 14:12
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
What are these greater works that the body of Christ are to do?
Surely the greatest work is the salvation of man.
Yet Jesus says that the body of Christ will do greater works then He did.
How can this be possible?
I know too many this is going to sound strange but it is because Jesus as the head did not come to save all mankind but left that greater work for the many membered body of Christ. The head together with the body make up the fullness of Christ.
Please stay with me as scripture will bear out what I said above.
Jesus himself states in
Matthew 15:24
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Yet Gods people today say Jesus ( I am speaking of the head, the man Jesus of Nazareth ) came to save all mankind.
They are both right and wrong in stating this.
Jesus as the head of the body came to save the many membered body, so that the whole body together might save all mankind. For Jesus as the head was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Yet we see upon His resurrection He sent the members of His body to not only the lost sheep of Israel but also unto the Gentile that He might save all mankind, each in their own order.
Now I know some here may misunderstand me here thinking that I am saying Jesus Christ did not come to save all mankind, but that is not what I am saying at all.
Jesus as the head is the saviour of all mankind, for the body cannot do anything unless directed by the head.
Now this principal can be seen in that God is our saviour , yet sent forth His son Jesus Christ to enact His salvation for all men. Jesus as the head of the body of Christ does the same thing, He sends forth His many membered body into the world to bring not all men to salvation but to bring His bride all Israel unto salvation.
The promise to Abraham was two fold.
It was not just in thy seed shall all the families of the earth blessed, but it says IN THEE and in THY SEED shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
We all know that the seed spoken of is Christ.
I believe this is spoken of the whole body of Christ , head to foot so to speak.
But who is the IN THEE that is spoken of as part of this promise?
IN THEE is speaking of the bride of Christ, natural Israel.
Natural Israel is always spoken of as a woman, and that woman is the bride of Christ.
The many membered body of Christ will sit on twelve thrones in the regeneration judging the twelve tribes of Israel ( the bride )
Through this judgment , which is righteous judgment for the body only judges that which the head tells it to judge, the bride is made ready for her marriage to Christ.
Once this marriage takes place male and female become one body ( male and female created he them ) and by this union is ushered in the restitution of all things.
Where God will be all in all.
The order of the call.
Jesus the head calls His body.
The whole body together calls the bride.
The male and female become one body and together usher in the restitution of all things.
Do we not see here the fulfillment of the prophesy given in
Genesis 1:26-28
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
It is only when Christ and the bride are made one that the earth will be REPLENISHED and SUBDUED.
Quote from: pneuma on June 10, 2011, 07:54:46 PM
Which of the two is in the image and likeness of God?
If the first man (Adam) is in the image and likeness of God then the second man (Christ) cannot be in God's image and likeness.
Adam-1 was not created in His image; but in His shadow/outline. That's (almost) the opposite.
Click here (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/shadow_shadow_and_image._7225.msg81911.html#msg81911)
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 10, 2011, 08:19:27 PM
Quote from: pneuma on June 10, 2011, 07:54:46 PM
Which of the two is in the image and likeness of God?
If the first man (Adam) is in the image and likeness of God then the second man (Christ) cannot be in God's image and likeness.
Adam-1 was not created in His image; but in His shadow/outline. That's (almost) the opposite.
Click here (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/shadow_shadow_and_image._7225.msg81911.html#msg81911)
We seem to agree on the first part WW that Adam was not created in the image and likeness of God.
However, I do not believe shadow to be a proper translation here as the Hebrew has another word for shadow and would have used that.
Right now I'm preparing a post that ought to prove the location of the Garden of Eden. When doing some study something relevant to this thread occured to me.
ACVRevelation 21
1 And I saw a new sky and a new earth, for the first sky and the first earth passed away, and the sea is no more.
Often that's used as proof that the new earth is transformed in an extreme way. There are no seas and oceans on the planet anymore. I think that's wrong because 'sea' is singular and 'the' points to s very specific sea. What if I rework the verse as follows:
WWRevelation 21
1 And I saw a new sky and a new earth, for the first sky and the first earth passed away, and the Laver is no more.
As you will read in my other thread there are several prophesies that state the whole wasteland around Jerusalem will be fertile again. A massive earthquake will bring up springs. Including one on the place of where teh Holies were in the Temple.
A spring was called water of life. The whole land will become a pool filled with water that once was used to fill the Laver (sea) that the priests used to purify themselfs.
In Revelation Jesus tells us we may drink freely from the spring. I think that include washing in it. So my interpretation is:
And I saw a new sky and a new earth, for the first sky and the first earth passed away, and the Laver which was for purifying a handful of priests only is no more; now the water flows freely everywhere and all can purify themselfs in the new great Laver.
Your views?
Quote from: Molly on May 02, 2011, 04:38:41 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 02, 2011, 04:29:41 PM
Quote from: Molly on March 29, 2011, 03:02:26 PM
"The Laver was made from the freewill gift of bronze mirrors made by the women (Ex.38:8) and enabled the priests to see their reflection. "
On the doors of the Temple where grapes and leaves. People donated golden leaves and grapes.
1 Corinthians 13:12
12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
What is the meaning to you of grapes and leaves?
Maybe the answer is in Gematria
Genesis 49:11 ....blood of grapes.... ===> Value 216
Genesis 49:12 His eyes will be darker than wine, his teeth whiter than milk.
--> Darker = sparkling red ==> Value 108
Isaiah 1:18 Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool. –
--> They shall be white ==> value 108
108+108=216
The idea behind this all is that blood cancels blood.
108+108=216 ==>Red+Red=White
Quote from: pneuma on June 10, 2011, 07:54:46 PM
Quote from: thinktank on June 09, 2011, 01:11:29 AM
Gen.1:26-27 is a prophesy of Christ and us in Christ.
For how else can God make man in His image and likeness except through unity with Jesus Christ
Pneuma
-------------
Prophecy?
That's a large assumption to make. We might not understand how it is the first Mankind, were created in Gods image, but to deduce it to prophecy seems more like a strawman, explanation. Why is Genesis 1 a prophecy, but Genesis 2 is real?
Throughout the old testament we hear of the Spirit in man.
Not as large an assumption as you think TT.
Here is what Scriptures in 1Co.15 affirm about the FIRST man Adam.
He was a living soul
Natural
Earth earthy
We as of right now bear the image of the EARTHY ( this is the image of the FIRST man.)
Here is what those same scriptures affirm of Christ.
He is a quickening spirit
Spiritual
The Lord from Heaven
We shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
These scriptures show the contrast between the FIRST man (Adam) and the SECOND man (Christ).
Which of the two is in the image and likeness of God?
If the first man (Adam) is in the image and likeness of God then the second man (Christ) cannot be in God's image and likeness.
Is the image of God earth earthy? Is God's image natural?
We as of right now bear the image of the first man, but we shall also bear the image of the second man.
TT only one is the image and likeness of God, and that one is Christ, therefore the First man Adam cannot be the image and likeness of God.
Therefore Gen.1:26-27 must be a prophesy of Christ and us in Christ. There is only ONE WAY that man can be made into Gods image and likeness and that is through Jesus Christ.
As regarding Gen 2 through to Rev. it is the unfolding of how God is creating man in His image and likeness.
Man simply is not there yet, but we have the promise that we SHALL also bear the IMAGE of the HEAVENLY. What is a promise but a prophesy of what is to come.
I say Praise God! I believe that you did a great job of speaking a truth :grin:
Good night! :grin:
Is it possible that we are complicating the Lake of Fire? I do not believe there is anything divisive within God. I do not believe one character attribute conflicts with another. I believe His agape love must intertwine with his righteous judgment and in that bring about His will and His desires. I believe the Lake of Fire is a symbol of that flowing out of God bringing change within his creation in order that every knee will bow...and everything and everyone being reconciled. I really don't need more detail than that.
Quote from: shawn on October 02, 2011, 06:01:00 PM
Is it possible that we are complicating the Lake of Fire?
Yes.
QuoteI do not believe there is anything divisive within God. I do not believe one character attribute conflicts with another. I believe His agape love must intertwine with his righteous judgment and in that bring about His will and His desires. I believe the Lake of Fire is a symbol of that flowing out of God bringing change within his creation in order that every knee will bow...and everything and everyone being reconciled. I really don't need more detail than that.
I do because imo it was/is that sort of reasoning that makes people misunderstand the Bible. Once it gets a bit to hard to understand assume it means what 'you' think/hope it means. It seem to go hand-in-hand with spiritualizing things away.
I find that the LOF is complicates. As it can implicate Total Destruction of any spirit that goes in there.
My biggest concern is that if the lof is childs play, why did Jesus die on a cross?
Or am I missing something.
Maybe Jesus did not die on the cross, in order for us to avoid LOF.
Is LOF, the lake of discipline?
Yeah, now that makes sense. So the LOF disciplines wayward evil, spirits, so that they repent and ask Jesus to forgive them.
But the cross is to save souls, not spirits. The life of the soul is in the blood.
So the cross saves souls, blood atonment, for unclean blood. The soul that sinneth dies.
But the LOF saves spirits.
I am not sure that all souls can be saved. Only spirits.
(CLV) for the soul of the flesh, it is in the blood in other words.. the life of the flesh is in the blood.
(Rotherham) For as for the life of the flesh, in the blood
Quote from: thinktank on November 28, 2011, 10:16:02 PM
I find that the LOF is complicates. As it can implicate Total Destruction of any spirit that goes in there.
My biggest concern is that if the lof is childs play, why did Jesus die on a cross?
Or am I missing something.
Without the cross no salvation.
But that doesn't mean everything goes. Anarchy.
Is LoF childs play? I think not, because Jesus wouldn't warn for childs play.
QuoteMaybe Jesus did not die on the cross, in order for us to avoid LOF.
Is LOF, the lake of discipline?
The literal lake in the Temple was for purification. The priests washed themselfs (in a ceremonial way) before they entered the Temple for their duties.
So LoF is the lake of purification. But when someone is pure that person also has disciple. So I think lake of discipline is a ok term too.
Refines would be another correct word because the Jews believed the water in the Laver symbolizes hyper refined gold.
The Laver is nearby the Holies of Holies. Picture God sitting in there and you have a Refiner sitting at a pot of refined gold.
QuoteYeah, now that makes sense. So the LOF disciplines wayward evil, spirits, so that they repent and ask Jesus to forgive them
.
Ofcourse it the above doesn't answer how the real LoF looks like. But I think it's safe to assume some parallels. The priests wern't destroyed in teh Laver. Neither did they stay in it forever. It's God at work at that Laver. Not some demons with pitchforks as so many believe.
:cloud9: God's Spirit is fire, and the only thing that can stay untouched in this fire, is whatever is like God. That's what being formed into His image and likeness is about. His fire changes us, conforms us. When the 3 Hebrew children were thrown into the fire, those on the outside saw literal fire, but the fire of His Spirit was present, changing spirit, soul, and body into the 4th man, ie. one like a son of God. Nothing was burnt, but all was changed, by the 5th presence in that oven, ie. His Spirit as fire. Five is the number of grace. My :2c: Blessings...
Quote from: Cardinal on December 01, 2011, 03:54:52 PMWhen the 3 Hebrew children were thrown into the fire, those on the outside saw literal fire
Verses! :winkgrin:
Could this be like the hell NDEs/visions/dreams?
:cloud9: Sounds reasonable to me, since without the spirit of Christ giving them sight, they can only perceive thru the darkened glass (soul without light of truth). So stands to reason, they could be perceiving the spiritual judgment/purification of the flesh/soulish realm, without actually seeing it being filtered thru the light and mercy of Christ who is our light. So what is actually His mercy freeing us from bondages, is seen as judgment.
Makes sense to me; it fits the patterns. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Cardinal on December 01, 2011, 04:26:38 PM
:cloud9: Sounds reasonable to me, since without the spirit of Christ giving them sight, they can only perceive thru the darkened glass (soul without light of truth). So stands to reason, they could be perceiving the spiritual judgment/purification of the flesh/soulish realm, without actually seeing it being filtered thru the light and mercy of Christ who is our light. So what is actually His mercy freeing us from bondages, is seen as judgment.
Makes sense to me; it fits the patterns. :thumbsup:
Where can I find: "When the 3 Hebrew children were thrown into the fire, those on the outside saw literal fire, but the fire of His Spirit was present, changing spirit, soul, and body into the 4th man"
:cloud9: Read Daniel chapter 3.....
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 01, 2011, 04:49:32 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on December 01, 2011, 04:26:38 PM
:cloud9: Sounds reasonable to me, since without the spirit of Christ giving them sight, they can only perceive thru the darkened glass (soul without light of truth). So stands to reason, they could be perceiving the spiritual judgment/purification of the flesh/soulish realm, without actually seeing it being filtered thru the light and mercy of Christ who is our light. So what is actually His mercy freeing us from bondages, is seen as judgment.
Makes sense to me; it fits the patterns. :thumbsup:
Where can I find: "When the 3 Hebrew children were thrown into the fire, those on the outside saw literal fire, but the fire of His Spirit was present, changing spirit, soul, and body into the 4th man"
Cardinal do you mean into the 4th man? Or into a 4 dimensional man?
Because Jesus is the second man.
:cloud9: I mean symbolically, the 4th man the king saw was the son of glory, which is all anyone will see of us, once spirit, soul and body are consumed by Him.
Quote from: Cardinal on December 01, 2011, 03:54:52 PM
:cloud9: God's Spirit is fire, and the only thing that can stay untouched in this fire, is whatever is like God. That's what being formed into His image and likeness is about. His fire changes us, conforms us. When the 3 Hebrew children were thrown into the fire, those on the outside saw literal fire, but the fire of His Spirit was present, changing spirit, soul, and body into the 4th man, ie. one like a son of God. Nothing was burnt, but all was changed, by the 5th presence in that oven, ie. His Spirit as fire. Five is the number of grace. My :2c: Blessings...
:2thumbs: