Holy Spirit in everyone?

[Molly]

whoops, I meant to put this here as an example of people without the indwelling spirit.


Isaiah 28:15

15Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:


Romans 1:28

Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.


2 Timothy 4:4

They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.



2 Tim 3

For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, 4treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power

[jabcat]

OK, great, now I understand your post better.  I was missing something alright :laughing7:

Good points.  I was thinking about it earlier today -  Holy Spirit and/or Jesus dwelled in Hitler, Stalin, Dahmer, etc., etc. - what, dormant, sleeping, just waiting?  I just can't see it.   Again, I believe when someone is spiritually reborn as Jesus described, then they are indwelt.  I'm open for good evidence, but not so much with speculation.  :)  Shoot, I have all kinds of ideas - many of them wrong!    :NewB1:

[jabcat]

Hi Syndicated.  I believe your verses :), but I don't see the absolute connection between the verses and the conclusion.  I personally believe most won't even be called in this lifetime, much less already indwelled with Holy Spirit.  Also, I'm questioning working 'on' vs. working 'in'... 

You know, it's an interesting topic, but probably as long as we proclaim Jesus is the Savior and encourage people to call on Him for salvation (Romans 10:13, whoever calls will be saved), that's the most important things.  :) James.

!  But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.  Romans 8:9

Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for [because of] the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."   Acts 2:38,39

[Molly]

Just so you are understanding what I am thinking, Jab.  This mystery hidden from ages and generations--Christ in you, the hope of glory.--I read this as Christ being already in us from the beginning--in Adam, in Abel, in Abraham, in Isaac, in Jacob--and that's the mystery that is being revealed by Paul to the saints.  Christ is already within you, waiting to be unveiled.  This is the idea of the seed sown in dishonor [this earthly tent] and raised in glory [as the body of Christ];sown in weakness, raised in power.  Paul tells us what that seed is--

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

[jabcat]

I could see it, maybe, if it's as you say, 'the saints' - those predestined.   However, I'm not sure that Christ has to be already in us, to then become revealed in us.   The scripture says if we open the door, He COMES in...then He's revealed?

What do you think of the above verses, how they fit for you?  For me, they go a long ways towards settling the topic - FOR ME - i.e., that those who don't know Christ don't have the Spirit, and vice versa.  How could those 2 scrips be "trumped" by any others?  Wouldn't other scrips need to be seen in light of these 2?  They seem quite plain to me.   :2c: 

[Molly]

Yes, definitely I think it is true for the saints.

Let's look at some other verses.

21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
--Rev 3:21

Isn't that a strange way of putting it? to sit with me in my throne.  Both are occupying the same place at the same time?  How does that happen?  Is he saying we will be equals?

We are waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God.  Manifestation means the revelation of something that is already there but hidden.

"manifestation"

G602
ἀποκάλυψις
apokalupsis
ap-ok-al'-oop-sis
From G601; disclosure: - appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation.

[Molly]

The HS comes to us--Jesus tells the disciples to go and wait in Jerusalem until the HS comes to them.

4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

--Acts 1


When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future.
--John 16:13


The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.
--John 14:17


But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
--John 14:26


The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
--1 Tim 4:1

[jabcat]

Amen.  Only by His grace and mercy. 

[WhiteWings]

!  But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.  Romans 8:9

Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for [because of] the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."   Acts 2:38,39

Clear. But when we die the spirit returns where it came from. That verse isn't just about believers. Could it be that there is some sort of confusion over the spirit we all have and the extra spirit we recieve when born again....?????

[jabcat]

maybe so, good point.  breath, breath of life?  not sure...will take a little sorting it out

[jabcat]

maybe more than that...could there be a "spirit of man" and a Spirit of God?  Both given by God - one at birth, the other at New Birth?

[WhiteWings]

If so my (original) question is; are we comparing 'spirit verses' when we shouldn't because the verses are about different types of spirits.

[micah7:9]

If so my (original) question is; are we comparing 'spirit verses' when we shouldn't because the verses are about different types of spirits.

Not your getting it. :bigGrin:

[Molly]

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
--John 1:12


because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
--Romans 8:14


The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
--Romans 8:16


You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,
--Gal 3:26


Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
--1John 3:2

[jabcat]

Good verses all, but this one

The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
--Romans 8:16

shows two distinct spirits, doesn't it?  His Spirit and 'our' spirit.  (also, there is mentioned an evil spirit, a lying spirit...probably others as well)

Again, perhaps one at birth, the Other at new birth.

[Molly]

Good verses all, but this one

The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
--Romans 8:16

shows two distinct spirits, doesn't it?  His Spirit and 'our' spirit.  (also, there is mentioned an evil spirit, a lying spirit...probably others as well)

Again, perhaps one at birth, the Other at new birth.

1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

--Rom 8

[WhiteWings]

1. The Seven Spirits of God More than this, John's book is a message "from the seven Spirits who are before His throne." Those familiar with the Tabernacle of Moses and its symbolism will understand that John was speaking of the seven lamps on the Lampstand, or Candlestick (menorah), which was situated in front of the Ark of the Covenant where the presence of God rested. The mercy seat on the Ark of the Covenant represented the throne of God, and the Lampstand stood before (in front of) His throne, separated only by the veil. The seven Spirits of God are listed in Isaiah 11:2,
² And the Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him, the spiri t of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and strength, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.
The Spirit of the Lord is depicted by the center post on the Lampstand, from which the other six lamps extended. The six branches are:
 

1. The Spirit of Wisdom 4. The Spirit of Strength 2. The Spirit of Understanding 5. The Spirit of Knowledge 3. The Spirit of Counsel 6. The Spirit of the Fear of the Lord In order for any man to have the fullness of the Spirit, he must possess all seven of these Spirits. Isaiah's prophecy (above) was directed at "the stem of Jesse," who was King David's father. Jesus was called the Son of David, and the prophecy was therefore messianic in that it was fulfilled in Jesus Christ. He possessed the fullness of these seven Spirits and is the pattern and example of what God intends to do with all men. Like the flame on the wick of a lamp, God intends to put His Spirit upon all flesh, so that these material bodies might manifest the Seven Spirits of God, not in heaven but in earth. In the last day, when the divine plan is complete, His glory will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea (Hab. 2:14). Jesus Christ Himself manifested all of the seven Spirits of God in His body. As believers, we are His body as well. Thus, the seven Spirits of God are in the seven churches—that is, in those who overcome, for the implication is clear that not all believers are overcomers. The seven churches are also portrayed as the seven stars in Christ's hand toward the end of the first chapter of Revelation.

[Molly]

The mercy seat on the Ark of the Covenant represented the throne of God, and the Lampstand stood before (in front of) His throne, separated only by the veil.

And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
--2 Cor 3


Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
--Mat 13

[AbbasChild]

I go with Cardinal on this one. She beautifully describes what I have seen during the last few years. Darkness in the scriptures describes ignorance and light describes truth. Jesus is the Light of the cosmos that enlightens every man born into the world. It's mostly our western dualist thinking that can't grasp a lot of the things Paul is saying in this writings. After all, everyone lives, moves and has their being in God. When Jesus died, He took everything, being created in Him, into death and raised it into the new creation. Then He sent the Holy Spirit to lead us all into this truth. As long as we don't see this, we are in darkness and death - for knowing Father and Son in the Spirit (John 17) is to have the Divine Life manifested in the eons. Thank God, He has been poured out on all flesh. All will come to see and believe, and declare His Lordship.

It seems most problems come from how we understand the word indwelling. Here's another anointed writing by John Gavazzonie on this:

Indwelling
By John Gavazzoni



Many have raised protests to the growing number of voices affirming Christ's presence in every man. The protests have ranged from almost vehement reactionary diatribes to disagreement of the nobler sort. To disagree while maintaining the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace, acknowledging the need for all of us to continue to be open to adjustment by the Spirit of Truth maintains brotherly relationship, a characteristic of the believer who has his priorities in proper order.

As one of the voices affirming what brother J. Preston Eby has called, "the Seed of Christ in every man," it has occurred to me just recently that clarifying a distinction between the presence of Christ on one hand, and Him, as it were, making Himself at home where He is, is vitally important.

I would think anyone who is theologically astute at all, would maintain, at least on the basis of the indisputable truth of God's omnipresence, that God must be present within all His creation, and Christ, in God, also so present. But it is one thing for Christ to be present; it is another thing for Christ to choose when to be salvifically active where He is present.

Though that thesis ought to, and will, I'm sure, raise all kinds of questions, I believe it's a quite fundamental truth, since for instance, we have many situations recorded in the gospels where there was a time-lag between Christ being present, and Christ---if I may put it this way---making His move.

Some time certainly elapsed, for instance, between the time Jesus arrived at the scene where friends and loved ones of Lazarus were grieving over his death, and that glorious moment when the Lord called his friend forth from his entombment.

So likewise, it is one thing for Christ to be present in a man or woman before He begins, by regenerating grace, to existentially make that person a member in particular of that body which is the habitation of God in the Spirit. In the way of illustration, there was always a difference when our family moved from one house to another, from going into the new house, and making that new house our home.

"Christ in" is fulfilled by Christ "dwelling in." Got that? "Dwell." That's the word from which we get "dwelling." "In" is one thing; "Dwelling in" goes deeper. The same essential thought is conveyed by the word, "abide." We abide in our abode. Christ abides in us as He makes us His abode from within, from within, where He has always been.
God always works from the inside out, and there's no person or particle of matter that He first needs to get into, before beginning to work from the inside out. No particle of matter could exist without Christ within as the glue holding holding it together. He is the Creator and Sustainer of the universe in its macrocosm and microcosm.

Of course, In Christ, we (plural/corporately) are the temple of God, but this Reality is conveyed to us by Christ in us. God has, in Christ, already raised us up and made our humanity His glorious abode through the glorification of Jesus. Christ is the abode of God, and we are the many rooms within that abode. Now we are in the process of coming to know by Christ in us, what we are in Christ.

All that Christ has done and is doing relates to Him making His home in our hearts by faith, as Paul so wonderfully explains. The Father abides in Christ who is abiding in us, making us, with Him, the "place" of God's habitation. Now that's not hard to understand, is it?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen, beautiful writing......He dwells in thick darkness, and secret pavillions (same word as tabernacles). Until this is made life in us, we cannot partake of the feast of TABERNACLES, for like Peter, we deem them unclean. My  :2c: Blessings....

PS. Good to see you back AbbasChild! It's been a long time  :sigh:

[thinktank]

OK, great, now I understand your post better.  I was missing something alright :laughing7:

Good points.  I was thinking about it earlier today -  Holy Spirit and/or Jesus dwelled in Hitler, Stalin, Dahmer, etc., etc. - what, dormant, sleeping, just waiting?  I just can't see it.   Again, I believe when someone is spiritually reborn as Jesus described, then they are indwelt.  I'm open for good evidence, but not so much with speculation.  :)  Shoot, I have all kinds of ideas - many of them wrong!    :NewB1:

Do not be affraid to voice your opinion Jabcat. What you say makes scriptural sense, with multiple scriptures showing that the Spirit come to them that believe in Jesus, regardless if others don't like it.

Also folks be careful that you are NOT ascribing the works of the Holy Spirit to the devil, for that is blasphemy and God does not take kindly to it.

[Cardinal]

:cloud9: To add a few more :2c:.....

There were 2 trees in the MIDST of the garden, just as there was a golden candlestick and a table of shewbread in the midst of the tabernacle. The WHOLE garden was His, we are His planting, just as people including strangers (not Israelites, read "unsaved" here), women and children (not of the priesthood, those that give suck and still need the milk of the Word, read ALL in the outer court here), were part of the outer court.

The outer court includes those "saved" that do not have the baptism in the HG/fire. They are the ones that labored all day, who are disgruntled over the ones that came in in the last hour and received the SAME WAGES. They also are only capable of "giving suck", ie. feeding the milk of the Word, not the meat.

The outer court represents the whole WORLD of people, and even everything that has breath (His Spirit), which is as the waters below (everything under) the firmament (heaven), the WORD (that is Spirit) MADE FLESH (or visible, making it below the firmament). See, if we be of the spiritual priesthood (which is by right of the baptism in the HG/fire), we are not of the waters below anymore, but are seated with Him in heavenly (firmament) places.

As far as God is concerned, there are 2 classes of people: priests and not priests. The NOT priests category, includes Israelites (the "saved") AND "strangers" (the "unsaved", ie. I have sheep ye know not of).

The priests category, are the ones that have thru baptism of the SPIRIT (fire), been made to be one with the Head. One is as the head, the other is the body. One ministers to, the other needs ministering to. This is the reason the wheat and the tares are raised up together; they are of the SAME BODY. And so we read, to LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF.

It is also as the Rock that was smitten, to let the SPIRIT come out, and so we have Jesus saying to the Pharisees (the priesthood who CARRIED the anointing), that if they didn't praise Him the ROCKS would cry out. Seen many rocks crying out lately? :laughing7: Blessings.....

[Molly]

As far as God is concerned, there are 2 classes of people: priests and not priests. The NOT priests category, includes Israelites (the "saved") AND "strangers" (the "unsaved", ie. I have sheep ye know not of).

Cardinal what is the difference then between the non priest saved and the unsaved?

Will only the priests be present in the first resurrection?

Will only the priests rule and reign with Christ in the next age?

[thinktank]

I was going  to ask you cardinal, "who are the rocks?"

You don't have to agree with this, but this just came to me now,

That since the pharisses refused Jesus, that He would raise up the rocks to praise Him. The rocks being the corner stones fitting together on top of the chief cornerstone, our Lord and saviour.

Paul says the Jews rejected Him, but the gentiles have embraced Him and praise His name.

[jabcat]

Thanks Tank.

Then Jesus was speaking nonsense when He said "if anyone hears my voice and opens the door I WILL COME IN?  I don't think so, and though I've asked twice, I haven't seen anyone specifically address that verse.   

I think all sides of this discussion, including me, need to be very careful that we're not making assumptions based on our own thoughts.  Maybe I am in fact doing so, but there are several scriptures that seem VERY clear (3 of which I've posted) that I personally don't see any other scriptures "trumping" or negating them- IMO, others must be taken in context of those clear, specific scriptures and not otherwise extrapolated. 

(But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.  Romans 8:9

Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for [because of] the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."   Acts 2:38,39

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.  Rev. 3:20)

IMO = NOT already indwelt.   If so, please carefully and explicitly explain these verses.  I can see God present as in "the spark of life", the spirit of man He has given all men Ecc. 12:7, etc.  But IMO, God, Jesus, Holy Spirit moving ON, directing, even entering INTO a person or situation to perform a specific purpose, is different than Holy Spirit and Jesus sitting around dormant in a mass murderer [or anyone not saved].   We can have all kinds of opinions and use all kinds of "vaguely supportive" scriptures, but please "do something" with these explicit ones - then maybe I can understand and accept a different position a little better.  But how can these scriptures be any clearer?  Thanks, James.