Slain from the foundation of the world

[thinktank]

Not!

The Father did not write the Old Testament "just in case" Jesus agreed to it.

I see it that Father had complete confidence in His Son that he would overcome.

[Beloved Servant]

Not!

The Father did not write the Old Testament "just in case" Jesus agreed to it.

Ok I know how you feel, how about everyone else?

Did Jesus have the potential to sin or not?

I beg your pardon?

[Molly]

:cloud9: @ Molly.....I believe He could have, else what would be the point of Him being tempted in all ways as us? I think the deification of the flesh of Him (pre-resurrection) is a left-over from the RCC's influence.

If you make the flesh of Him (pre-resurrection) holy, then it puts Him in an unapproachable position whereby normal men cannot ever hope to attain to anything beyond the realm of the flesh (in life), and keeps them in a sinner mentality instead of a joint heir, son of God, mentality. Which is obviously very useful to the coffers of men, because it keeps them from ever coming into the authority of maturity in Christ, and therefore more easily managed.

The other thief doctrine is one where we must die to attain our inheritance, ie. there's no hope in this life, but when we die......

Both, IMO, miss the mark and keep men from pressing in. Basically, it's the 2 thieves on the cross. One glorifies the past, the other glorifies the future; both keep our eyes off what He is doing IN US, NOW. My  :2c: Blessings....

wow. the two thieves on the cross.  the one who says remember me [in the future], Jesus replies you will be with me TODAY in paradise.

[Molly]

Not!

The Father did not write the Old Testament "just in case" Jesus agreed to it.

Ok I know how you feel, how about everyone else?

Did Jesus have the potential to sin or not?

I beg your pardon?

I'm trying to take a poll.

[Beloved Servant]

Cardinal, "normal men" will never be as Jesus. In Him there is a NEW CREATION.

[rosered]

It was no mere coincidence that Jesus fulfilled the Scriptures.

:thumbsup:  Amen !   the Whole book its written of HIM ,,the Holy One / thing ! :HeartThrob:



Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.


 
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.      same Spirit we also shall Know  all things

same witness of Truth 1Jo 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.


I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.      same bringing in many sons of God into Glory !!  :HeartThrob:   Thanks Dave

[Beloved Servant]

Cardinal, If you make the flesh of Him (pre-resurrection) holy, then the transfiguration bears witness that His flesh is full of Light.

[Molly]

Cardinal, If you make the flesh of Him (pre-resurrection) holy, then the transfiguration bears witness that His flesh is full of Light.

The transfiguration bears witness that his flesh will be changed.  That's the definition of the word.

trans·fig·u·ra·tion/ˌtransfigyəˈrāSHən/Noun
1. A complete change of form or appearance into a more beautiful or spiritual state.

[Beloved Servant]

Appearance is the keyword that only Faith, Hope and Love can see. It does not mean that it is not there. Hidden from the carnal mind.

[Beloved Servant]

They were sleeping!

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: @ Beloved.....My belief is that He overcame all things WAY BEFORE He ever went to the cross, or before His public ministry even started. I believe He went into the Holy of Holies within Himself before He ever ascended publicly. What He walked out publicly was an outward DISPLAY of what had already happened inwardly.

If there was not a maturing process that He had to go thru, then God is a respecter of persons, because it would have been really cruel for a, let's say, a 14 year old Jesus to walk past the blind, lame, leprous, and demoniacs, and do nothing about it, if he was capable of it.

In order to see Him as He is, you have to lay down the flesh of Him, to see the Seed. The Spirit divides asunder the flesh from the spirit, EVEN HIS FLESH. My  :2c: Blessings....

[rosered]

Cardinal, If you make the flesh of Him (pre-resurrection) holy, then the transfiguration bears witness that His flesh is full of Light.

exactly
  the inward  man  / Body of Light / knowledge of God   Jesus was  concieved of Holy Ghost  ,  HS being  Father and Wisdom =  Jesus Christ
  These  3 are ONE ..   Wisdom   female   Father male   Jesus Christ offspring   
  making the inward man
  But come in the likness of sinful flesh
   Man   born of woman under the LAW   Mary  though the linage of David   on and on  down to Adam

so many scriptures to back up  both the natural and the Spiritual man  :mshock:

inward and outward

   here the Light/ Jesus   Christ  being the knowledge of God  which is Wisdom


1Cr 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:


2Cr 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

  Wisdom  proverbs 8
   all of it  but this part   mainly 

22 "The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old.
23 "From everlasting I was established,
From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth.
24 "When there were no depths I was brought forth,
When there were no springs abounding with water.
25 "Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills I was brought forth;
26 While He had not yet made the earth and the fields,
Nor the first dust of the world.
27 "When He established the heavens, I was there,
When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep,
28 When He made firm the skies above,
When the springs of the deep became fixed,
29 When He set for the sea its boundary
So that the water would not transgress His command,
When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
30 Then I was beside Him, as a master workman;
And I was daily His delight,
[l]Rejoicing always before Him,
31 Rejoicing in the world, His earth,
And having my delight in the sons of men.......... :HeartThrob:

[Beloved Servant]

"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: You know I never thought about that before, but the blood came out of His face, presumably, and face means nature, Adam was ruddy or red in the face. At the point of totally surrendering to the cross, the Adamic likeness was no more? Hmmm.....

That could be, but consider this:
There is a (rare) medical condition that makes someone sweating blood.
It also could be just a little hint on the timing of His death. Passover is at full moon. Sometimes the moonlight is red and when that reflects on sweat it looks like blood. Many translation use "as if" or similar. Just a small "warning" not to base a conclusion on (possibly) badly translated verse.

(http://images.sciencedaily.com/2008/02/080211133105.jpg)
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080211133105.htm


44 and, coming to be in an agony, more intensely, was he praying; and his perspiration became, as if great drops of blood, falling upon the ground.]
44 And @ being @ in @ an agony @ he prayed @ more earnestly @: and @ his @ sweat @ was @ as it were @ great drops @ of blood @ falling down @ to @ the ground @.
44 and having been in agony, he was more earnestly praying, and his sweat became, as it were, great drops of blood falling upon the ground.
44 And having become in agony he prayed more intensely, and his sweat became like drops of blood falling down to the ground.
44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly; and his sweat became as it were great drops of blood falling down upon the ground.
44 And being in great trouble of soul, the force of his prayer became stronger, and great drops, like blood, came from him, falling to the earth.
44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
44 And being in agony, He prayed more fervently. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down onto the ground.
44 and so his sweat became like drops of blood, running down to the ground.
44 And being in conflict he prayed more intently. And his sweat became as great drops of blood, falling down upon the earth.
44 And his sweat became as drops of blood, trickling down upon the ground.
44 And being in an agony he prays more intently: and his sweat becomes as great clots of blood descending on the earth.
44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly intently : and his sweat was became as it were great drops clots of blood falling down to descending upon the ground earth .
44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat became as it were great drops of blood falling down upon the ground.
44 Being in agony he prayed more earnestly. His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down on the ground.
44 And being in an agony, he prayed more earnestly; and he sweat as at were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
44 And being in agony, he prayed more earnestly; and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
44 And in his anguish he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.]
44 Being in agony he prayed more earnestly. His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down on the ground.
44 Being in agony he prayed more earnestly. His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down on the ground.
44 And being in an agony, he prayed more earnestly. And his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling to the ground.
44 possible spurious text He was in agony and earnestly prayed. His sweat became, as it were great drops of blood falling down upon the ground.
44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling to the ground.
44 And being in a violent struggle, he prayed more intently: and his sweat was as clots of blood coming down upon the earth.
44 Being in agony he prayed more earnestly. His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down on the ground.
44 And being in an agony, he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling to the ground.

[WhiteWings]

Not!

The Father did not write the Old Testament "just in case" Jesus agreed to it.

Ok I know how you feel, how about everyone else?

Did Jesus have the potential to sin or not?

Yes.
About daily I read flesh is sinful and Jesus came in the flesh. But just because it's about Jesus flesh isn't sinful anymore.
Jesus could have sinned. Jesus could have called legions of angels to destroy all who tried to oppose/hurt Him.
Just as Jesus walked to the garden after the last supper He could have walked out of town. Escape crucifixion.
The whole point is that He did not (give in to those temptations).
Do you really think Jesus was happy to be nailed to the cross? I can understand He was happy when looking back at His perfect life. I can understand He was happy even greater glory would start in only a few days (resurrection). The fact is He asked to be spared of the pain of the cross.
^YLTMatthew 26
39 And having gone forward a little, he fell on his face, praying, and saying, `My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as Thou.'

As the above verse shows even at that point Jesus was tempted. He considered the possibilty to be not crucified. But as always He made the right choice.
That's the story of Jesus. Tempted in every way, but always made the correct choices as the OT predicted.

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: @ Molly.....I believe He could have, else what would be the point of Him being tempted in all ways as us? I think the deification of the flesh of Him (pre-resurrection) is a left-over from the RCC's influence.

If you make the flesh of Him (pre-resurrection) holy, then it puts Him in an unapproachable position whereby normal men cannot ever hope to attain to anything beyond the realm of the flesh (in life), and keeps them in a sinner mentality instead of a joint heir, son of God, mentality. Which is obviously very useful to the coffers of men, because it keeps them from ever coming into the authority of maturity in Christ, and therefore more easily managed.

The other thief doctrine is one where we must die to attain our inheritance, ie. there's no hope in this life, but when we die......

Both, IMO, miss the mark and keep men from pressing in. Basically, it's the 2 thieves on the cross. One glorifies the past, the other glorifies the future; both keep our eyes off what He is doing IN US, NOW. My  :2c: Blessings....

wow. the two thieves on the cross.  the one who says remember me [in the future], Jesus replies you will be with me TODAY in paradise.

He didn't say that. You just made a doctrinal translation :btongue: Read this.

[rosered]

Not!

The Father did not write the Old Testament "just in case" Jesus agreed to it.

Ok I know how you feel, how about everyone else?

Did Jesus have the potential to sin or not?

Yes.
About daily I read flesh is sinful and Jesus came in the flesh. But just because it's about Jesus flesh isn't sinful anymore.
Jesus could have sinned. Jesus could have called legions of angels to destroy all who tried to oppose/hurt Him.
Just as Jesus walked to the garden after the last supper He could have walked out of town. Escape crucifixion.
The whole point is that He did not (give in to those temptations).
Do you really think Jesus was happy to be nailed to the cross? I can understand He was happy when looking back at His perfect life. I can understand He was happy even greater glory would start in only a few days (resurrection). The fact is He asked to be spared of the pain of the cross.
^YLTMatthew 26
39 And having gone forward a little, he fell on his face, praying, and saying, `My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as Thou.'

As the above verse shows even at that point Jesus was tempted. He considered the possibilty to be not crucified. But as always He made the right choice.
That's the story of Jesus. Tempted in every way, but always made the correct choices as the OT predicted.

  Jesus told Pilot   when  Pilot threatened Jesus with death , man I have the power to kill you

  Jesus replies , you would have no power at all if it were not given to you from Above ...

  I see the outward  works of men and the demonic , tempting the Lord , more so rhan anything when reading scriptures 

  Jesus was sent to destroy the works of the devil / hate /murder

   Jesus says on the Cross forgive them Father for they know not what they do

  seems this kind of love  shown  over your enemies /hate you   , is the best example Jesus taught us to love your enemies , He Lived it  and also died  showing death has no power  anylonger  over Him or those in Him

1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

so his mortal flesh was destroyed though evil works , but His glorious Body / flesh is now in complete control  , showing us also how its done .. :HeartThrob:

[Cardinal]

:cloud9: @ Molly.....I believe He could have, else what would be the point of Him being tempted in all ways as us? I think the deification of the flesh of Him (pre-resurrection) is a left-over from the RCC's influence.

If you make the flesh of Him (pre-resurrection) holy, then it puts Him in an unapproachable position whereby normal men cannot ever hope to attain to anything beyond the realm of the flesh (in life), and keeps them in a sinner mentality instead of a joint heir, son of God, mentality. Which is obviously very useful to the coffers of men, because it keeps them from ever coming into the authority of maturity in Christ, and therefore more easily managed.

The other thief doctrine is one where we must die to attain our inheritance, ie. there's no hope in this life, but when we die......

Both, IMO, miss the mark and keep men from pressing in. Basically, it's the 2 thieves on the cross. One glorifies the past, the other glorifies the future; both keep our eyes off what He is doing IN US, NOW. My  :2c: Blessings....

wow. the two thieves on the cross.  the one who says remember me [in the future], Jesus replies you will be with me TODAY in paradise.

He didn't say that. You just made a doctrinal translation :btongue: Read this.

:cloud9: Not sure what your point is, WW..... :dontknow:

[WhiteWings]

Did you click the link?
The Greek has no commas.
Placing the comma at different places gives a different meaning to the verse.
On what basis we place the comma at a certain spot?

[Molly]

Did you click the link?
The Greek has no commas.
Placing the comma at different places gives a different meaning to the verse.
On what basis we place the comma at a certain spot?

Yes I made a doctrinal translation.  That comma belongs to me and the HS.

Read THIS, ww!!! :happygrin:

[WhiteWings]

Yes I made a doctrinal translation.  That comma belongs to me and the HS.

I get the point .  :pointlaugh:

[Cardinal]

Did you click the link?
The Greek has no commas.
Placing the comma at different places gives a different meaning to the verse.
On what basis we place the comma at a certain spot?

:cloud9: Yes I did, but I didn't see what you were,,,,,,,talking about.  :laughing7:

[micah7:9]

Not!

The Father did not write the Old Testament "just in case" Jesus agreed to it.

Not!  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[pneuma]

So are we in agreement that he could have sinned but he did not?

Or not?

Yes Jesus could have sinned, to beleive otherwise makes every trial and test He went throught nothing but a sham.

[pneuma]

^YLTJames 1
13 Let no one say, being tempted--`From God I am tempted,' for God is not tempted of evil, and Himself doth tempt no one,
==> God is NOT tempted


^YLTHebrews 2
18 for in that he suffered, himself being tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted.
==> Jesus IS tempted

^YLTHebrews 4
15 for we have not a chief priest unable to sympathise with our infirmities, but one tempted in all things in like manner--apart from sin;
==> Jesus IS tempted. Not just in one thing but in everything. Like other (wo)men.

According to Thayer the Greek for tempted has 2 readings (difference in the manuscripts)

πειράζω
peirazō
Thayer Definition:
1) to try whether a thing can be done
1a) to attempt, endeavour
2) to try, make trial of, test: for the purpose of ascertaining his quantity, or what he thinks, or how he will behave himself
2a) in a good sense
2b) in a bad sense, to test one maliciously, craftily to put to the proof his feelings or judgments
2c) to try or test one's faith, virtue, character, by enticement to sin
2c1) to solicit to sin, to tempt
2c1a) of the temptations of the devil
2d) after the OT usage
2d1) of God: to inflict evils upon one in order to prove his character and the steadfastness of his faith
2d2) men are said to tempt God by exhibitions of distrust, as though they wished to try whether he is not justly distrusted
2d3) by impious or wicked conduct to test God's justice and patience, and to challenge him, as it were to give proof of his perfections.
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G3984
Citing in TDNT: 6:23, 822

πειράω
peiraō
Thayer Definition:
1) to make a trial of, to attempt
1a) taught by trial, experienced
2) to test, to make trial of one, put him to proof
2a) his mind, sentiments, temper
2b) in particular, to attempt to induce one to commit some (especially carnal) crime
2c) tempted to sin
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G3984
Citing in TDNT: 6:23, 822

πεῖρα
peira
Thayer Definition:
1) a trial, experience, attempt
2) to attempt a thing, to make trial of a thing or of a person
3) to have a trial of a thing
4) to experience, learn to know by experience
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from the base of G4008 (through the idea of piercing)
Citing in TDNT: 6:23, 822



I'm aware some say He was indeed tempted but was totally immume to it. He didn't just resist it, it didn't touch Him at all. Just like God.
But the Bible is clear: God can not be tempted but Jesus was tempted in every human aspect.
So imo there must a difference between the not tempting of father and the tempting of Son.

My view is that the greatness of Jesus was not that He was immume to wrong desires; His greatnes was that in whole His life He never gave in to those desires while every other person gives in to those desires on (almost) daily basis.
Thayers defenition if infirmities seems to agree with that.

ἀσθένεια
astheneia
Thayer Definition:
1) want of strength, weakness, infirmity
1a) of the body
1a1) its native weakness and frailty
1a2) feebleness of health or sickness
1b) of the soul
1b1) want of strength and capacity requisite
1b1a) to understand a thing
1b1b) to do things great and glorious
1b1c) to restrain corrupt desires
1b1d) to bear trials and troubles
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G772
Citing in TDNT: 1:490, 83

:thumbsup: