Slain from the foundation of the world

[thinktank]

This might annoy some of you, but this might be the truth of the matter and bring greater understanding.


The lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world.

This verse is used to prove that God prepared Adam and Eve to fail. That he deliberatly wanted them to fail in the garden.

But...the lnaguage here used is "world". not Earth.


This makes a difference.


Jesus Christ came to save the world. The world heareth them, but he that heareth God is not of the world.
So when did the world begin?

Genesis 1.1?

I believe it started sometime after Adam and Eve sinned and were cast out from Eden, into the world.


Which means that the lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world was slain and prepared as a sacrifice AFTER Adam and Eve sinned.

[jabcat]

I believe the word is 'kosmos', meaning system.  Though not extremely annoyed, LOL!  I am one that believes it was from the beginning of "things planned", the "system". 

[Molly]

I've thought for a long time that Adam is the lamb slain from/at the casting down of the kosmos.

PS we are now still living in the system that resulted from the casting down of Adam, except for us blessed ones that have been translated into the kingdom of [God's] dear Son.

[jabcat]

I've seen you say that Molly, but I'm not sure I understand...Adam, not Jesus, or somehow one and the same?

[Molly]

I've seen you say that Molly, but I'm not sure I understand...Adam, not Jesus, or somehow one and the same?

Did you see my ps?

If I put together the things we know about Adam, the image of the one to come, having the indwelling Spirit [was not deceived], the son of God--
with--

1)Jesus is the kinsman Redeemer
2)He is not ashamed to call them brothers
3)The mystery hidden from ages and generations--Christ in you, the hope of glory

well, I could say more, but probably better to stop there... :winkgrin:

[jabcat]

I may be wrong, but I get from that is you believe Adam (as in 'Adam and Eve in the garden') was [the not-yet-revealed] Yeshua, the Son of God?   Also, I guess a case could be made that Adam wasn't deceived (Eve was), yet he still was in disobedience?....

TT, we'll try to bring this full circle back to your OP   :smile:

[Molly]

I may be wrong, but I get from that is you believe Adam (as in 'Adam and Eve in the garden') was [the not-yet-revealed] Yeshua, the Son of God?   Also, I guess a case could be made that Adam wasn't deceived (Eve was), yet he still was in disobedience?....

TT, we'll try to bring this full circle back to your OP   :smile:

well, let me ask you this--what does Christ in you, the hope of glory mean?  Why has that been hidden from ages and generations?  Is Christ something hidden in the elect from before the foundation of the world?


Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

[jabcat]

Well, let me tell you something...:laugh2:

What I (past and) currently believe those things mean is;

"Christ in me", is Jesus in me since He's given me faith to believe on Him for salvation;

and, "hidden from ages and generations", was God's plan to not reveal His Son as the Savior until the time of the age of grace (His crucifixion and resurrection) - that the Jewish nation in general, or the "pagan" nations were veiled until His revealing.  Further, that some still are not allowed to see, and won't until it's their "time".

"chosen us in Him" I take to mean that He predestined the ecclesia for His purposes, at least partly being to help bring the nations in during the next age.

Sounds like you're possibly seeing/suspecting some other "connections" than that...

[jabcat]

I just "simply" believe "Lamb slain...foundation" means that it was God's thought and intent, His plan from the beginning, that Jesus would be our Savior.  Not a Plan B when Plan A went down the drain.

You think there's more to it than that?  Lay it on us, you're among friends.   :bigGrin:

[Molly]

The foundation of the world=the founding of the kosmos=the conception of the kosmos.   That word 'foundation' = katabole which comes from kataballo which literally means to throw down or cast down.

So we have these two things happening at the same time--the lambkin is slain and the kosmos is cast down--the lambkin slain from the foundation of the world.  Doesn't that sound like what happens in Gen 3 with Adam?  This is assuming you would agree that Adam was slain by the Nachash who deceived Eve.

Christ in me", is Jesus in me since He's given me faith to believe on Him for salvation;

We have a whole list of OT saints who had faith and who had righteousness.  But, you see, Paul calls this a secret ['musterion'] hidden from ages and generations.  This was kept secret until Paul was commissioned to release the secret to the NT saints.

and, "hidden from ages and generations", was God's plan to not reveal His Son as the Savior until the time of the age of grace (His crucifixion and resurrection) -

Is that what Paul says?  I don't see him mentioning the crucifixion as the mystery.  He says the mystery is-- Christ in you, the hope of glory.

The OT saints had righteousness and faith before the crucifixion.

well--like the man says, it's a mystery. :dontknow: :winkgrin:



34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

--Mat 23

[Beloved Servant]

Sitting at the feet of Jesus reveals:
"Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is My throne, and the earth is My footstool" (Isa. 66:1).
"And I will make the place of My feet glorious" (Isa. 60:13).
And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives" (Zech. 14:4).

Christ is the supreme Ruler of the universe.
Christ always has ruled.
He always will.
The Father has given "ALL things" into His hand (Jn. 3:35).

[jabcat]

Mol,
all else aside, quickly - no, right there in that passage he doesn't say the mystery is the crucifixion, and that's not what I'm saying.  I'm saying "salvation through Jesus" is the mystery, but only revealed "at His appointed time".

though not fully understood by me, I believe the OT saints were saved by faith in God - the Christ, Messiah had not as yet come/been revealed - though they looked for Him, they didn't as yet know Who He was.  He is still hidden from most.

Looking back at your post, it seems like we're really seeing much of this the same, maybe just some pieces of it a bit differently - and that's what I'm trying to get at - the whole Adam thing.  I believe it's about Jesus, and I THINK you do too, but that Jesus was somehow Adam?   Also, I'm realizing it's not real popular outside mainstream Christianity, but I'm not one that believes Jesus resides in anyone until they're spiritually reborn from above, i.e., given the faith to believe, born again.   Peace  :Sparkletooth: 

[jabcat]

  Also, I'm realizing it's not real popular outside mainstream Christianity, but I'm not one that believes Jesus resides in anyone until they're spiritually reborn from above, i.e., given the faith to believe, born again.   Peace  :Sparkletooth:

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.  Revelation 3:20

[jabcat]

Sitting at the feet of Jesus reveals:
"Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is My throne, and the earth is My footstool" (Isa. 66:1).
"And I will make the place of My feet glorious" (Isa. 60:13).
And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives" (Zech. 14:4).

Christ is the supreme Ruler of the universe.
Christ always has ruled.
He always will.
The Father has given "ALL things" into His hand (Jn. 3:35).

You bring up a subject I was just reading about tonight David, and I have a related article I'd like to discuss in another thread, but I'm afraid we'd have problems "going there" without getting into the Trinity debate.   :sigh:

I'll think on it. 

[Beloved Servant]

Is not the seed of faith in every man?
Has not God hidden Himself in the place where no man would look?

[Beloved Servant]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1lTJUFHiOE

[jabcat]

That may be, but it's also true that we must be born again.  I agree, there's some mystery about it, in that all are given a measure of faith.  However, there are many scriptures about being saved ("what must I do?"), etc., and also, Jesus called some of them of their Father the devil.

I recall a post of yours from about a year ago that said "it's obvious not all are of the brethren"...   I agree, it's just not for me to say who is and who isn't.  (although He did say we'd know them by their fruit).  Gee, takes lots of discernment, wisdom, and being careful.  Still learning here.

[jabcat]

can't see Youtube from work, would need to watch from home later. 

are these the lyrics?

Our Eyes are bleeding
Courtesy of everything
That you could ever want to hide
Our veins are dry
Sometimes the truth cuts deeper
Than the sharpest knife

Looking is an awkward feeling
When you're beaten down
Anything to stop the burning
We've been running all around

We just survive
Too busy occupied with dying to
Stop and consider life
So many pretty pretty pictures
On the walls an on our fingertips
Let's sew the borders round it

Losing is an awkward feeling
When your bleeded down
Ain't no way to stop the burning
We've been running all around ourselves
And it's the choices that we choose
In our everyday abuse
Just a short solution to a long term problem
I stabbed myself just for the scar
To see if I could feel something
And it's the choices that we choose
Cause we're all prophetic fools
Just a short solution to a long term problem

I need
Just one more thing
To be completely blinded
Shoot it up, shoot it in,
Buried it under all this callous skin

Losing is an awkward feeling
When your bleeded down
Ain't no way to stop the burning
We've been running all around ourselves
And it's the choices that we choose
In our everyday abuse
Just a short solution
To a long term problem everyone

Innocence is way overrated now
Choking this sober feeling down
I guess you've come over me
So define lonely

[Beloved Servant]

no, that's not it.

[jabcat]

OK, good, because I didn't get it    :laughhand:

I didn't want to sound like a smart aleck, but I wasn't quite seeing the "prophetic part"

somebody posted that as the lyrics to that particular song...oops

[jabcat]

ok, i found it through a different site and have listened to pieces of it...nice.  I'll go back to it now.

[Beloved Servant]

the depth of this defies even trying

[Molly]

Is not the seed of faith in every man?
Has not God hidden Himself in the place where no man would look?

Yes, every man is given a measure of faith, but the anointed one [Christ] is given the Spirit without measure for God giveth not the Spirit by measure.


If we look at the two sons of Adam, Jesus calls Abel righteous.  Where does Abel's righteousness come from?  Only Christ is righteous.

But, then we see the n'er do well Cain who murders his own brother out of jealousy and bad conscience.  God sends Cain out of his presence but he puts a mark on him, which is the Tav, which ww could probably tell us is the sign of the cross. :winkgrin:

[WhiteWings]

This might annoy some of you,

:talkangry:

The lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world.
This verse is used to prove that God prepared Adam and Eve to fail. That he deliberatly wanted them to fail in the garden.

Some call it "wanting" some call it "fore knowledge" other call it "plan". I say those things are exactly the same thing.

But...the lnaguage here used is "world". not Earth.


This makes a difference.


Jesus Christ came to save the world. The world heareth them, but he that heareth God is not of the world.
So when did the world begin?

Genesis 1.1?

I believe it started sometime after Adam and Eve sinned and were cast out from Eden, into the world.

Which means that the lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world was slain and prepared as a sacrifice AFTER Adam and Eve sinned.

Can you rephrase that? I have no clue how you reach that conclusion...
Note that "world" is often translated wrong so it's not a good starting point for anything but a general understanding.
:2c:

[WhiteWings]

I believe the word is 'kosmos', meaning system.  Though not extremely annoyed, LOL!  I am one that believes it was from the beginning of "things planned", the "system".

a] What exactly does "from" mean?
b] What does "foundation"mean?

Let's compare it with a house.
When was the foundation of your house?
c] When the construction workers started digging in your garden -> Actual things happening in the creation account.
d] The time you had endless chats with your wife and architect before the actual building started.

I think "slain from the foundation of the world" is option d]