What were the Nephilim

[Molly]

I've always thought Satan was trying to establish his own kingdom where he was God, which puts him naturally on a collision course with God and his kingdom.

For 6000 years of human history, Satan's kingdom on earth has been bigger and on the face of it, more successful.  I'm sure the last 2000 years have been difficult for him, but, again, it looks like he is coming out on top.

Sometimes, I wonder how the genetic makeup of anyone good has managed to survive 6000 years of human brutality.  I guess the fact that they have proves evolution is a lie, and survival of the fittest errs when it does not put God into the equation.

[Nathan]

It is of my studied opinion . . .
This kind of jumps out at me . . ."my" "studied" "opinion".  While it's obvious that many benefit from each other's fruit of their own labors . . which is to say.many benefit from the opinions and conclusions of others . . .I still wince at times when it appears that many of the conclusions that get shared out come from flesh and blood reasoning rather than spiritual revealing.  We struggle much with spiritual realities and our natural minds do the best they can with the limited tools given to us in these bodies of flesh.  At the same time, the idea that we can have an accurate description of who satan is, who the devil is, who Lucifer is assuming that this knowledge can even be obtained through natural means makes me a bit uneasy.

Because the nature of satan doesn't have "any" characterstics of the nature of God, our reasoning would then be that it would "have" to have been created outside of God???  I think that a good portion of the problem with this thinking is that the conclusion that satan is an individual entity/being to which we can connect any ungodly thought or action to as the source is missing the mark as well.  The idea that satan planted a bad thought in my mind . . .that satan made me do a bad thing . . .that satan is the one that caused me to be tempted, weak, or just plain sinful is only an enabler that allows me to remain in my muck and mire as I continue living life with a victim mentality.

I find it MOST interesting that the majority of believers on this site have come to realize some truths about the existence of hell and the freedom that comes with that . . .but yet most continue to embrace the other half of that falsity in that we've let hell go, but we continue to embrace the existance of satan from traditional perspectives.  Even though hell and satan go hand in hand . . .I don't get it.  How can we let go of one and not the other?  Hell has been satan's directive for our lives from the beginning . . .or so the traditional church would tell you . .but once you've come into the understanding that hell isn't that eternal pit of torment that satan's throne resides at, but that it's merely the nature of this realm we live in as a combination of our choices we make, the choices others make that affects us , and the nature of this natural realm of the flesh in and of itself . . .but yet we still maintain satan is everything traditional teaching has made him up to be?  How is this possible?

[DrAnthonyCarnasis]

It is of my studied opinion . . .
This kind of jumps out at me . . ."my" "studied" "opinion".  While it's obvious that many benefit from each other's fruit of their own labors . . which is to say.many benefit from the opinions and conclusions of others . . .I still wince at times when it appears that many of the conclusions that get shared out come from flesh and blood reasoning rather than spiritual revealing.  We struggle much with spiritual realities and our natural minds do the best they can with the limited tools given to us in these bodies of flesh.  At the same time, the idea that we can have an accurate description of who satan is, who the devil is, who Lucifer is assuming that this knowledge can even be obtained through natural means makes me a bit uneasy.

This fear of actually studying the Scriptures and actually sharing what we have studied is getting really old. In my studied opinion, means I actually studied to formulate an opinion and just didn't just have an opinion made up on the spot from this discussion or something I read someone said. If any of us want to just believe anything without actually study and prayer, and share our opinion of it, then go ahead. It is my opinion, that we should have more studied opinions than just opinions, especially when it comes to the Word of God and the spiritual life we lead. If anyone disagrees, let them disagree.

Thank-you.

[DrAnthonyCarnasis]

So you agree with part of my theory that the devil forces were never part of Gods kingdom?

It is of my studied opinion, that anything like the devil and his angels did not originate as part of God's Kingdom but was created outside and set themselves up as ones trying to get in.

Just curious, how do you think something originates out side of God?  Did not Paul say at least 6 times... All things are of God. ?

Hello Pierac,

I suggest you should read it again, I said did not originate of part of God's Kingdom, but was created (by God) and set themselves up as ones trying to get in. I never said something originates outside of God, I said they originate outside God's Kingdom.

Jesus said the same thing, everything that is not already in the Kingdom of God, is always on the outside and must come in.

Matthew 11:12
And from the days of John the Baptist until the present time, the kingdom of heaven has endured violent assault, and violent men [try to] seize it by force [as a precious prize--a share in the heavenly kingdom is sought with most ardent zeal and intense exertion].

Luke 16:16
Until John came, there were the Law and the Prophets; since then the good news (the Gospel) of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone strives violently to go in [would force his own way rather than God's way into it].

Who, according to Jesus, has been violently assaulting the Kingdom of Heaven? Violent men. There is no secret in Scripture, no spiritual mystery which has not already been revealed in Jesus. The devil and his angels who assault the Kingdom of Heaven according to Peter, Jude and John are speaking of those very same violent men Jesus described.

Thank-you,

Dr Anthony Carnasis.

[DrAnthonyCarnasis]

There is a difference between what Satan is, and what the devil is. There is a difference between Sons of God and angels.  Therefore, there is quite a difference in what the Nephilim is, once we recognize that we cannot over-simplify every passage in Scripture as pertaining to the same thing, all the time.

[micah7:9]

It is of my studied opinion . . .
This kind of jumps out at me . . ."my" "studied" "opinion".  While it's obvious that many benefit from each other's fruit of their own labors . . which is to say.many benefit from the opinions and conclusions of others . . .I still wince at times when it appears that many of the conclusions that get shared out come from flesh and blood reasoning rather than spiritual revealing.  We struggle much with spiritual realities and our natural minds do the best they can with the limited tools given to us in these bodies of flesh.  At the same time, the idea that we can have an accurate description of who satan is, who the devil is, who Lucifer is assuming that this knowledge can even be obtained through natural means makes me a bit uneasy.

Because the nature of satan doesn't have "any" characterstics of the nature of God, our reasoning would then be that it would "have" to have been created outside of God???  I think that a good portion of the problem with this thinking is that the conclusion that satan is an individual entity/being to which we can connect any ungodly thought or action to as the source is missing the mark as well.  The idea that satan planted a bad thought in my mind . . .that satan made me do a bad thing . . .that satan is the one that caused me to be tempted, weak, or just plain sinful is only an enabler that allows me to remain in my muck and mire as I continue living life with a victim mentality.

I find it MOST interesting that the majority of believers on this site have come to realize some truths about the existence of hell and the freedom that comes with that . . .but yet most continue to embrace the other half of that falsity in that we've let hell go, but we continue to embrace the existance of satan from traditional perspectives.  Even though hell and satan go hand in hand . . .I don't get it.  How can we let go of one and not the other?  Hell has been satan's directive for our lives from the beginning . . .or so the traditional church would tell you . .but once you've come into the understanding that hell isn't that eternal pit of torment that satan's throne resides at, but that it's merely the nature of this realm we live in as a combination of our choices we make, the choices others make that affects us , and the nature of this natural realm of the flesh in and of itself . . .but yet we still maintain satan is everything traditional teaching has made him up to be?  How is this possible?

Excellent!

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I think both viewpoints are true, just as both are true everywhere else in scripture (ie. both natural AND spiritual applications). As for what I said, it did not come out of imaginations, I asked HIM; if it was true, then why would the demons/fallen ones want to create "hybrids", and the answer I gave, is what He gave me, believe it or not. The deaf shall hear, was not a fanciful saying; He plants the hearing ear in man, and those that hear His voice will come out of their graves (fleshly imaginations) and live, ie. receive the life/breath of the Spirit, which always comes with understanding. Blessings....

[Beloved Servant]

The ROCK hits right between the eyes — and then sinks deep!

[Nathan]

It is of my studied opinion . . .
This kind of jumps out at me . . ."my" "studied" "opinion".  While it's obvious that many benefit from each other's fruit of their own labors . . which is to say.many benefit from the opinions and conclusions of others . . .I still wince at times when it appears that many of the conclusions that get shared out come from flesh and blood reasoning rather than spiritual revealing.  We struggle much with spiritual realities and our natural minds do the best they can with the limited tools given to us in these bodies of flesh.  At the same time, the idea that we can have an accurate description of who satan is, who the devil is, who Lucifer is assuming that this knowledge can even be obtained through natural means makes me a bit uneasy.

This fear of actually studying the Scriptures and actually sharing what we have studied is getting really old. In my studied opinion, means I actually studied to formulate an opinion and just didn't just have an opinion made up on the spot from this discussion or something I read someone said. If any of us want to just believe anything without actually study and prayer, and share our opinion of it, then go ahead. It is my opinion, that we should have more studied opinions than just opinions, especially when it comes to the Word of God and the spiritual life we lead. If anyone disagrees, let them disagree.

Thank-you.

Your emotions on this are confusing you from what I was trying to state.  For one, I never said I had any fear of studying the Scriptures.  I really . . .conscioiusly . . fear nothing.  I revert to the Peter experience . . .flesh and blood can not teach us things God intimately reveals within us.  there's no mention of being a deep thinker or studying a lot.  I believe the Spirit can often lead me into studying something, but not so that I can gain knowledge and accumulate facts, but so that I open my heart up by laying my head down to allow the Spirit to reveal what lies beneath the surface of what's being said, which is also what lies beyond what my head can accumulate.  The result is that there is freedom of Truth and not just another opinion to take under consideration.

This subject of satan and such is a good example of that.  Everything is dimensional.  For me, the most simplest are the three most general dimensions . . .natural, moral and spiritual.  That can be overlaid with "general" (population) "corporate" (church) individual.  I'ts like a funnel.  The text starts out as a wide swath, it applies to all men.  But it's application can be seen on several levels by each man, the ones closest to our nature is the one that affects us the most.  which is to say that which is revealed to us inwardly is what brings the transformation to us inwardly (spiritually) which then manifests through us outwardly (naturally).  Hashing out the natural implications is still over looking the inward principles for which it was aimed to connect with in the first place.

I don't see satan as an outward entity so much as I see satan as carnality inwardly.  My mind is always at emnity against God.  So for me, satan would then be the definition of what my mind is.  Satan means adversary, and my natural mind is adverse with spiritual principles.  Scripture speaks about the renewing of my mind, but is this renewal a natural one or a spiritual one?  I would say it's a spiritual one, which then also means my natural mind, even though a renewal is taking place within my spirit man, my natural mind is still extremely limited in it's ability to comprehend spiritual principles , it can't grasp the vastness of the Father's infinite truth.  It can only observe, not until understanding is birthed from that spiritual truth can my mind begin to comprehend what it's seeing.  . . .thus we're told not to lean on our own understanding.  Even though I may do much studying with great discipline, if everything is based on my intellectual understanding, how much of what I've concluded is really personal revelation through relationship and how much of that is just results from a well-disciplined mind?

For me the answer is in the freedom that comes from what I'm seeing.  Truth sets us free.  Knowledge doesn't have that kind of characteristic.  It may "sound" like it's right, but which dimension are we plugged into?  I'm not ata ll against studying Scripture.  I'm just cautious about my mind being the source of what itis I'm seeing.

[jabcat]

There is a difference between what Satan is, and what the devil is. There is a difference between Sons of God and angels.  Therefore, there is quite a difference in what the Nephilim is, once we recognize that we cannot over-simplify every passage in Scripture as pertaining to the same thing, all the time.

Craig, when Gary gave you temporary permission to come back on the boards, it was to "clear something [specific] up".  You stated you had no intent to keep posting.  Discussion forums isn't everyone's "cup of tea" (Gary says he'd be banned from his own forum if he posted much lol).

I trust the specific issue(s) were addressed, and it appears it's time to "let's move on".  God bless you, take care.  James.

[thinktank]

I don't see what the problem is, why shouldn't you let him post. There are others here who also try to reinterpret what the devil means, and are more radical in my studied opinion!.

[jabcat]

Has nothing to do with the devil topic.  In my post I stated Gary had given temporary permission for Craig to come on to address a specific issue - which Craig indicated was all he was interested in doing. 

PM is the best place to discuss moderation issues, other than what's necessary for people to understand basically what's going on.

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/rules_and_faq/what_you_may_not_do_2693.0.html

Since you've questioned moderation publically, I'll publically only say this is not a new issue and there are multiple factors involved.  Craig's a brother and has been wished well.  Any further details that are necessary can be discussed in private please.  thanks.

[thinktank]

So you agree with part of my theory that the devil forces were never part of Gods kingdom?

It is of my studied opinion, that anything like the devil and his angels did not originate as part of God's Kingdom but was created outside and set themselves up as ones trying to get in.

Just curious, how do you think something originates out side of God?  Did not Paul say at least 6 times... All things are of God. ?

Jesus said the devil is a liar and the father of it. So there is support for the idea.

[WhiteWings]

I've always thought  the nephilim would refer to the offspring of the sons of God and human wives.  They are 'mighty men' --gibbor.  It is the sons of God doing this who are referred to as 'fallen angels' in a colloquial sense.  Satan would be one of the sons of God.

Fallen from where....?
a] From heaven to earth?
b] From earth to Tartarus?
c] Something else.

I think I have some support for b]
Think about it; and enjoy teh peace and quiet when I'm  :lazy:

[WhiteWings]

^YLT2Pet 2
4 For if God messengers/angels who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast them down to Tartarus, did deliver them to judgment, having been reserved,
5 and the old world did not spare, but the eighth person, Noah, of righteousness a preacher, did keep, a flood on the world of the impious having brought,

^YLT1Pet 3
18 because also Christ once for sin did suffer--righteous for unrighteous--that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit,
19 in which also to the spirits in prison having gone he did preach,
20 who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah--an ark being preparing--in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water;

The Greek text doesn't have "having gone" "went and" or similar (depending on the translation.) Jesus didn't go anywhere.

^YLTGen 6
2 and sons of God see the daughters of men that they are fair, and they take to themselves women of all whom they have chosen.
3 And Jehovah saith, `My Spirit doth not strive in man--to the age; in their erring they are flesh:' and his days have been an hundred and twenty years.
4 The fallen ones were in the earth in those days, and even afterwards when sons of God come in unto daughters of men, and they have borne to them--they are the heroes, who, from of old, are the men of name.

The flood is mentioned in all verses and is the link that shows the angels, spirits in prison, Nephilm and sons of God are the same.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: He destroyed the flesh that the Nephilim were in, which I believe was the reason for the flood. Things suffocated are unclean under the law. Drowning is in essence, suffocation. Judas hung himself, more suffocation.

The reason they are unclean has to do with the blood being in them when they die, which is why the animals had to be ceremonially killed and the blood drained out of them. Blood being drained out, is essentially the principle of deliverance being witnessed, because the carnal beastly natures are in/draw their life from, the blood.

I did not know of this the day after my conversion experience (having never read the Book yet),
but I awoke unable to stand the smell of the meat I was cooking for my family (and I was a big meat eater). I had no idea it was spiritual, based on the blood that was in it. It was not a natural smell I was smelling, it was spiritual. (Yes, spirits have a smell; ask any funeral home director what death smells like).

I also didn't know why I started boiling all meat in salt water thereafter, until I found out a couple of years ago. The salt removes the blood. I was making our meat "kosher" and didn't even realize it. My  :2c:

[WhiteWings]

the Nephilim were in

Sounds like they didn't have bodies of their own. I think they had bodies of their own.

[Molly]

the Nephilim were in

Sounds like they didn't have bodies of their own. I think they had bodies of their own.

Some say the nephilm can't be killed because they are demi-gods?  Outside of their original body [once that body dies] they would be demons.

[WhiteWings]

I think they are regular spirits and like all spirits they can have bodies. Their bodies can be destroyed (Goliath) but their spirit not (except by God  I assume)
Same is true for your spirit imo.

[Molly]

I think they are regular spirits and like all spirits they can have bodies. Their bodies can be destroyed (Goliath) but their spirit not (except by God  I assume)
Same is true for your spirit imo.

But my spirit won't stay earth-bound or Tarturus bound--right?

Matthew 8:16
When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:


Ques: are these spirits the nephilim?

[WhiteWings]

I think they are regular spirits and like all spirits they can have bodies. Their bodies can be destroyed (Goliath) but their spirit not (except by God  I assume)
Same is true for your spirit imo.

But my spirit won't stay earth-bound or Tarturus bound--right?

Depends.... if you are a very naughty girl :icon_queen:

Matthew 8:16
When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:


Ques: are these spirits the nephilim?

I think so. That's what my post was about. Plz (re)read and comment on the verses/logic